Post-Mullivaaikkaal governance in Sri Lanka: Towards a totalitarian state

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Image courtesy Lanka Standard

The present crisis engulfing the Jaffna University may be a turning point for the Tamil politics and Sri Lankan politics at large. There are three important issues, I would like to deduce from this stalemate, which are necessary to gauge the trajectory of post-war Tamil politics in Sri Lanka. Two of those issues are very familiar ones, that is because of the very reason, in Sri Lanka we have had repeated failures in achieving a dignified political settlement in the past. And the third one is an entirely new and alarming phenomenon that is unique to the post-Mullivaaikkaal governance structure of the Sri Lankan state. This new governance is misleadingly called as ‘militarization’ in the popular discourse without realising the conceptual and theoretical elucidation. Obviously, I would like to dwell in the third one in detail after a brief sketch of first two issues.

Firstly, this crisis will lead to the delegitimization and destruction of Tamil moderates in politics. Throughout the post-independent Tamil politics, Tamil moderates were electorally destroyed, during the first half of the history and during the second half, they were physically destroyed by the Tamil militancy. (I have dealt in detail about this particular aspect in this piece [1]). This is a very familiar story; successive governments in Colombo have let down the moderate Tamil politicians and they were never given a dignified solution to this protracted ethnic conflict. Presently TNA is having same old problem and its legitimacy has consistently been eroded by each and every crisis affecting Tamil population in Sri Lanka. On the one hand, Sampanthan and his cohorts have to deal with a deceitful regime, and on the other hand, they have to convince the exhausted and traumatised Tamil electorate that they can deliver a dignified political solution via political negotiations. Since the eruption of this crisis in Jaffna University, the TNA seems to be losing its grip and leadership in Tamil politics. Its first reaction was somewhat confused one and merely followed the protest momentum of the TNPF led by Gajan Ponnambalam, parliamentarian Mavai Senathiraja’s slothful body language at the Jaffna protest, organised by the TNPF, itself was a clear indication that the TNA is not comfortable with the idea of protest. The lacklustre protest organized by the TNA, at the Chelvanayakam memorial site, on 21st of December, has wittingly or unwittingly revealed the TNA’s internal contradictions among its constituent parties. Hence, any escalation of Jaffna University crisis can further delegitimize the TNA in the eyes of Tamil people.

Secondly, current stalemate, where both parties are not ready to blink first, can lead to a potentially serious situation, some thing similar to early 1980s of Jaffna University, which had all the elements of bursting into a full blown Tamil militancy. The Jaffna University has been the hotbed of Tamil nationalism since its inception and it has played a very forceful role in shaping the Tamil politics since late 1990s. Post-Riviresa Jaffna University’s open confrontation with the Sri Lankan army came to the fore during the weeks preceding the fall of Elephant Pass army garrison in 2000, when the army was holding the civilians of Thenmaratchi region, as human shield to thwart the LTTE heavy weapon usage. Eventually, the army led the civilians to leave as the pressure grew on them to release the civilians from the war zone. Since then, the Jaffna University has been at the epicentre of Tamil nationalist resurgence in the form of Ponguthamil events and many other mobilisations, e.g Jaffna University students played a crucial role in TNA’s excellent electoral performance at 2004 General election. The resurgence of Tamil nationalism in Post-Riviresa Jaffna University took place when the LTTE was on the rise militarily and the army was on the back foot, losing large swathes of territory to the LTTE. The present confrontation is taking place in a critically transformed politico-military context: this time there is no more LTTE, at least in the form of an organized military force. The present period – aftermath of the LTTE defeat – epitomises the extreme vulnerability of Tamil life in Sri Lanka – politically and physically – since the independence from the British. The Sri Lankan state’s humiliating and totalitarian approach will further alienate the Tamil population and students into indignation and resentment. Therefore, we have every reason for to be concerned about the present situation, because it has every potential for a renewed violence and destruction. Thus the present stalemate has critical implications, to the very fabric of the Jaffna University as a core institution of Tamil national life and to the Tamil politics as a whole.

Thirdly, we are witnessing an alarming new development in the governance and management of the population in Sri Lanka, though the new development has serious implications for every section of the society, but it poses a grave danger to Tamil-way-of-life in the island than any other ethnic or religious groups. The Sri Lankan security establishment’s rationale for detaining four Jaffna University student leaders for “intense rehabilitation” – because of their involvement in “activities symbolized the return of former LTTE Leader V. Prabhakaran” [2] – epitomizes the new governance approach in post-Mullivaaikkaal Sri Lanka. Amidst the confusion over the legality of security establishment’s actions, their claim that those “four undergraduates agreed to be rehabilitated willingly” [3] is ominously indicative of the Orwellian proportion of the new governance and administratory approach in Sri Lanka.

According to the online Oxford Dictionaries website, the word rehabilitation/rehabilitate is described as “restore (someone) to health or normal life by training and therapy after imprisonment, addiction, or illness”, therefore one is expected to presume that those four students are under going “intense rehabilitation” for expressing certain ideas and convictions regarding Tamil identity and Tamil politics, which are deemed incompatible in post-Mullivaaikkaal Sri Lanka. Presently, the Tamil-way-of-life in Sri Lanka is at its most vulnerable state, politically and physically, since 1948. Post-Mullivaaikkaal Sri Lankan state’s approach to Tamil politics – with the knowledge that the Tamils can wage a deadly insurgency against the state – has been singularly focused on preventing the emergence of a future Tamil militancy rather addressing the legitimate political aspirations of Tamils. This explains the military’s embedded nature in Tamil life throughout the Northern and Eastern provinces and the military has succeeded in making itself an integral part of the vulnerable sections of the Tamil society. This is generally described as militarization in the popular discourse.

It is important to dwell in detail on the often-stated topic of ‘militarization’ in Sri Lanka and in particularly North and East of Sri Lanka. The difficulty with the jargon like ‘militarization’ is that it is ill defined and it is being used in many different contexts. Prof Martin Shaw writes:

‘Militarization’ is actually used in a variety of senses, describing many divergent realities, and it could be argued that the concept is very much an ideological tool of anti-militarist analysis – used to cover a variety of aspects of military power which cause concern – rather than a scientific concept. [4]

Even though, scholars like Jonathan Goodhand and Rajesh Venugopal have used the term ‘militarization’ in relation to Sri Lanka, but their usage of the term was highly contextualized ones. Generally in social science, militarization or militarism is meant to describe ‘war build-up’ or ‘war preparation’ at the societal level. The principal problem with the usage of the jargons like militarization or militarism in the context of post-war military administration of North and East of Sri Lanka is that it gives a completely misleading picture of Tamil civilian support for the state and the security establishment. Militarization and militarism are used in the context of a homogenous national culture, where the society is being mobilized by the state for war-effort; thus, we have seen the militarization of Sinhala society by the Sri Lankan state and the militarization of Tamil society by the LTTE. It is completely nonsensical to use the term militarization for the present military administration of the Tamil population in North and East of Sri Lanka. There is already a well established terminology exists in public-sphere to describe the current state of affairs in North and East of Sri Lanka, that is, Occupation (being occupied). The jargon, militarization, may be more sensational to use in public discourse but it gives a completely misleading picture of what is happening in North and East of Sri Lanka.

This new Orwellian governance in Sri Lanka came into the existence since the end of war in May 2009, when the Sri Lankan state had achieved monopoly of violence throughout the island, first time in the post-independent history. At the outset of independence in 1948, the new state – inherited by the Sinhala elites – never had the legitimate-approval from all the sections of the population and that paved the way for a violent insurgency later. Still the state is lacking of political legitimacy and approval from the Tamils. Therefore the Sri Lankan state’s stability sits delicately on three factors, Sinhala-Buddhist totalitarian political discourse, surveillance-state and the complete military subjugation of Tamils. The Sri Lankan state’s disproportionate response to the Jaffna University students’ act of defiance amply illustrates how the state is squandering its newly found monopoly of violence.

Many international and multilateral agencies are complicit in this post-Mullivaaikkaal governance of administrating Tamil population; particularly agencies like International Organization for Migration (IOM) and the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (UNOCHA) are guilty of being complicit in the military subjugation of Tamils. Despite the murky legal status of the Presidential Task Force (PTF) for Resettlement, Development and Security in the Northern Province, the UNOCHA has become a willing partner in PTF’s politicized resettlement programme in Northern province. It is worth sharing this information here, during the refurbishment of Vavuniya General Hospital, the unwritten criteria for the recruitment of masons for the project was, one’s ability to communicate in Sinhala language, because, the supervising engineer cannot communicate in Tamil. Therefore many Tamils with building construction skills were denied of employment, simply because they couldn’t communicate in Sinhala language. This is typical of the situation in Northern province, where the UNOCHA is presiding over an inhumane resettlement and development programme, which has no sense of security.

In this backdrop, the continuing subjugation and humiliation of Tamil population will invariably lead to the worsening of ethnic crisis and the delegitimization of Tamil moderates in politics. The extremist elements from both sides have no qualms about exploiting violence and human suffering for political outcomes, therefore the highly charged Jaffna University crisis can easily be escalated into a full-blown violent crisis.

Reference

[1] http://groundviews.org/2011/01/14/some-reflections-on-reading-dayan-jayatilleka-and-dharmeratnam-sivaram-taraki/

[2] http://groundviews.org/2012/12/10/updates-on-ground-situation-in-jaffna/

[3] http://www.colombopage.com/archive_12B/Dec21_1356072353CH.php

[4] Shaw, M, Post-Military Society: Militarism, Demilitarization at the End of the Twentieth Century (Cambridge: Polity Press, 1991).

  • http://----- A Concerned Citizen

    The crux of all what the writer has stated is that history will repeat itself and that successive governments have not learnt anything from history. The subjugation of the people in the occupied territories and ruthless repression of any form of protest is nullifying the stated claim of the government that it is working to bring about a reconciliation between the two communities. The systematic steps that are being taken to change the demography of the North and East will only complicate the issues further.
    Let us hope that when history repeats itself as is happening today, eventually there would not be a repetition of the mass killings of civilians that took place and the international communication will act more circumspectly and bring about a meaningful end to the conflict in this cursed country. Or would it end with the completion of the genocide that was left unfinished ?

    • eureka

      ”Repetition of history” is coming to an end soon as demographical changes are fast becoming very significant and Tamils will soon stop asking for ”devolution of power”.

  • eureka

    43 months of Post-Mullivaikkal is a recapitulation of the previous 61 years and MORE.

  • justitia

    The incarceration of the four students without being produced before a magistrate is plain and simple “extrajudicial imprisonment” – under the guise of “rehabilitation”.
    It is punishment of young educated citizens because they dared to remember their dead ancesters on Karthigai Vilakkedu day – celebrated by tamils the world over – which unfortuntely coincided this year with the Maweerar Day of the LTTE.
    The state is antagonising tamils who are slowly returning to normality,afer the mayhem of war.

  • SINGING FISH

    The atrocities systematically carried out by the forces will continue as the goverment and the forces are not willing to treat the tamils as their brothers and sisters and if this trend continues ,they will never win the hearts of tamils.Recently the army commander in the north Hathusinha said they found 49 photos of PRAPHAKARAN in the Jaffna university but the image of the leader Praphakaran is in the mind of almost all the tamils, how can he erase this image? The only way to put an end to this problem depends only on sinhalese,they must come forward to recognise the legitimate rights of the tamils and to establish civil rule in east and north like in the other provinces.

  • jansee

    “Anapayan” has painted with an honest brush the current status and situation. “SINGING FISH” is right. While the regime may remove Prapakaran’s photos, how are they going to remove that image from the minds of the Tamils. Gotabaya seems to have the answer – by brute force but even as he treads on this slippery slope, he ought to know that the last Tamil standing, if it ever comes to that, and apparently that is what his wish is, it would be breathing as a “free” Tamil.

    My advice would be for the students and general populace to rally behind and under the umbrella of the TNA. The sinister attempt to revive and potray the Tamils as terrorists and thus providing an avenue for the regime to use its sword on the Tamils is but a deceptive ploy to weaken the Tamil cause and bring about a division within the Tamil community. It is true that the TNA has not been able to bring about any difference in the lives of the Tamils, not for want of trying but because of a regime’s recalcitrant attitude that believes that winning a war itself is a solution to the Tamils. Without the numbers and the arms, the only way to take this forward is to proceed with an active passive resistance. Stop cooperating with the regime in everything. Like what Gandhi said, they can have our bodies but not our souls. It is the wish of this regime for the TNA to fall but, for the time being, and within the country, the Tamils have to stand with the TNA. Prapakaran may have made a choice not to support Ranil during the election, and I understand his reason(s) for doing so, but by doing so, he indirectly supported MR and we all can see what this led to. We, in the diaspora, will act and pressure this regime in all the means that is available and the local Tamils can count on that but at home they have to rally behind the TNA so as not to give an opportunity to disrupt the pressure that has been building up on this regime.

    • Ratna Mano

      “Ahimsa” is the best way to solve the Tamils problems and seek freedom. It is useless to find answers in violence. Eventually everybody has to realize sensibly and seek answers.

  • Jayalath

    To the writer.

    The totalitarian state , you have stated a different word for the same meaning of dictatorial state. My query is much different to what you meant.there are no arguments about Rajapaksa government , he is a full time dictator , and I have plenty of questions related to his rule . But , how can you tell that which state was not the totalitarian state in sri lanka since 1970 ? Hello , J, R and Premadasa, Useless Chandrikakumaratunga , those all had totalitarian states .

    We never had an equitable government since 1970 , and my worry about these people who write about politic and governance without realising the real facts , and truth . we all can write any thing about any thing ,which doesn’t mean it is the right thing . I have realised one more thing out of many , that writers are trying to highlight always the defects of state , which isn’t a bad thing, but it needs a balance . The balance is important . Please do not mislead people of writing without better understanding and impartial .

    Let’s have a look about the North East and reconciliation program. I red many articals had been published in this ground view over the issue of north east and almost every artical had been tried to blame only the government . This is a horrendous and pathetic effort . The most articals have behaved like never knew about the LTTE, and their atrocities .
    My friend , we all have bloods in hands , we all are bloody barbarians .

    So, my concern is , when will we learn to do right thing ? When will we understand the right thing ? How and what way is the most effective way to resolve our problems without take it to next conflict . To do so we all have responsibilities and boundaries . So, which way could be the most effective way ?

  • http://brainoil.wordpress.com sharanga

    You are unwittingly making it plainly obvious to the Sri Lankan government that given its values and preferences, it has to immediately close down the Jaffna University, and re-locate it to some other place where it is surrounded by Sinhalese population.

    ****

    That said, the interesting part of your post is your argument that continuing subjugation and humiliation will invariably lead to the worsening of the ethnic crisis and the delegitimization of Tamil moderates in politics. What’s even more interesting is that you’re calling this a deduction.

    Suppose that indeed Tamils are subjugated and humiliated. If that is really the case, what’s so special about this subjugation and humiliation in comparison to the subjugation and humiliation that Tamils had to undergo before-Mullivaaikkal that it is capable of delegitimizing Moderate-Tamil-X, which wasn’t delegitimized before Mullivaaikkal?

    If Moderate-Tamil-X survived all that subjugation and humiliation before Mullivaaikkal, they would survive post-Mullivaaikkal subjugation and humiliation as well simply because there is no way post-Mullivaaikkal subjugation and humiliation could be worse than pre-Mullivaaikkal subjugation and humiliation. If Moderate-Tamil-X finds itself struggling to survive, that is because it doesn’t exist in the worst place as a significant political force.

    By the way, I have seen many identical arguments made about the Palestine-Israel situation. People argue that UN and Israel should give Palestinian government various stuff because that is the only that would delegitimize Hamas. Those arguments are without any merit. The kind of people who are attracted to Hamas will never be persuaded by anything that UN or Israel can ever give.

    • janasee

      sharanga:

      I believe you have not digested well what Anapayan has written. You write:

      ” If that is really the case, what’s so special about this subjugation and humiliation in comparison to the subjugation and humiliation that Tamils had to undergo before-Mullivaaikkal that it is capable of delegitimizing Moderate-Tamil-X, which wasn’t delegitimized before Mullivaaikkal?”

      I am surprised that you seem to be oblivious of the reasons for the subjugation of moderate Tamils pre-Mullaivaikkal and that is what Anapayan is trying to explain. The regimes, since independence, had turn a deaf ear to the pleas of the moderates. Added to this was the utter and total dishonesty on the part of the regime that only entered into agreements with the moderates for political expediency and just tore them up unilaterally once they got what they wanted. This continuous treachery was the PRIMARY reason for the moderate tamil leaders to be side-lined or subjugated. Many of us wish that the Tamils should have insisted on their own homeland when independence was considered. Even then, as now, the Sinhala leaders duped the Tamil leaders to believe that we all can live in one SL, as brothers and sisters. What a treachery!

      • http://brainoil.wordpress.com sharanga

        Jansee,

        It is you who is not digesting what I’m saying. I’m not at all oblivious to subjugation and humiliation Tamils were subjected pre-Mullivaaikkal. My comment takes the idea that subjugation and humiliation happened pre-Mullivaaikkal as a premise and as such, it is necessary to the conclusion I draw. Please pay attention.

        What I said was this.

        * Subjugation and humiliation of Tamils happened pre-Mullivaaikkal

        * Subjugation and humiliation of Tamils happen post-Mullivaakikkal

        * There’s no way that post-Mullivaaikkal subjugation and humiliation could be any more worse than pre-Mullivaaikkal subjugation and humiliation.

        * Therefore, if X survived pre-Mullivaaikkal, it will survive post-Mullivaaikkal as well. If Tamils didn’t move away from X pre-Mullivaaikkal, they won’t post-Mullivaaikkal either.

        * If X struggles to survive post-Mullivaaikkal, they struggled to survive pre-Mullivaaikkal as well, which would mean that they aren’t a significant political force in the first place.

        What Anpayan says that government actions would drive the Tamils further towards extremism. That’s not possible. Tamil population is already pretty extremist. Government actions (what they are currently doing) won’t make them any more extreme. They’d have to open up gas chambers, and spread fear ineffectively for that to happen.

        • jansee

          sharanga:

          “There’s no way that post-Mullivaaikkal subjugation and humiliation could be any more worse than pre-Mullivaaikkal subjugation and humiliation.”

          You must be joking. What a skewed view and not surprising at all. It is many, many times worse now than pre-Mullivaikal. It is getting worse by the day.

          If a consistent stand is interpreted (or misinterpreted) as extreme, how to you categorise the atrocities committed by the regime. To realise that 146,000 of the Tamils have been murdered by a ruthless regime, how do you expect the Tamils to react?

          • http://brainoil.wordpress.com sharanga

            Jansee,

            Even though I don’t agree, your new comment is at least relevant, unlike your previous comment.

            There’s no point in engaging in a lengthy debate since lot of this is subjective. So here’s what I think. None of the things that the government are doing now are things that they haven’t done before. The real difference between now and before Mullivaaikkal is that the LTTE is gone, and there’s no shelling going on. I therefore it is unlikely that the government actions would drive Tamils even more into extremist positions. If some moderate opinion managed to survive all the sheelling and gang rapes and all, it would survive this as well.

          • http://etofinda yapa

            “146,000 of the Tamils have been murdered”????????? Whaaat?????

            jansee has been blowing a rubber balloon for a long time. Its size is increasing every second.

            I think next week it will be 246,000. What a shameless propagandist machine!

            Thanks!

          • Mapa

            Yapa,

            Do you have reliable figures for the number of Tamils killed?

            Thanks!

          • http://discourssions.wordpress.com yapa

            Dear Mapa;

            I don’t have. Why not ask jansee how she arrived at that figure, 146,000?

            Thanks!

  • http://yahoo.com NandiniRama

    Oppression leads to a desire for freedom and justice and increases the hatred of the oppresor. Remember the French Revolution and the reign of Terror that followed. The nobility which oppressed the peseants were comletely exterminated.

  • jansee

    yapa:

    “jansee has been blowing a rubber balloon for a long time. Its size is increasing every second. I think next week it will be 246,000. What a shameless propagandist machine!”

    Who knows what would come out from the closet in this war without witnesses? First, it was zero civilian casualties, then under pressure, it became 7,000. May be you may have the answer in your statement of 246,000. With the sort of devastation, damage and the insidious attitude to hide everything from the public, ultimately the figure you have mentioned could possibly become true.

    sharanga:

    As for now, the opinion of moderates may hold sway, and most of us, too, want it that way and our hopes are with the TNA. However, the regime’s attitude to ignore the moderates is increasing the heat and I have absolutely no doubt that history may well be repeated and this time in ways this regime had never anticipated and for which all sri lankans will regret forever. You would realise that the majority of the sinhalas have this mindset of subjugating the tamils as this is where the regime gets its power from and as long as this scenario persists, the Tamils will ultimately side-step the moderates and matters can become ugly. If this regime believes it has a very strong army and can subjugate the Tamils by force, it will find out eventually that the whole country is going to suffer. There are other ingenious ways to bring this regime to its knees if it continues with its recalcitrant ways unto the Tamils.

    • http://discourssions.wordpress.com yapa

      Dear jansee;

      Can you substantiate your figure 146,000?

      Thanks!

      • Thambi

        This figure is based on rough estimates of the population of the North done without a proper census being conducted. the tamils like to pick and choose what date they believe from the government when it suits their particular narrative that they have been so hurt and terrorized despite being so innocent (really those tamil ltte “civilians” were saints they would like you to believe and were just planting flowers when the evil Sri Lankan government started bombing them for no reason!).

    • Thambi

      what you tamils fail to realize is that killing 146,000 people in 4 weeks is physically impossible especially when sites like tamilnet report each bombing killed about 4-20 people. For the figure to be possible Sri Lanka would have had to fire 260 times every day for 28 days using up 7280 shells. There’s no evidence that many attacks were carried out or that the army had that much shells to use. At most 10-20 attacks each day are possible with what firepower the army possesses.

      Your “evidence” is the few ltte cadres that managed to wrangle their way out of Sri Lanka keen to testify and the video of SL soldiers or the LTTE shooting 2 people with a gun (captured cadres) while another 4 people lie dead on the ground (you blasted it all over channel 4). Again this doesn’t seem to really add anything to the claims of civilians being killed on a massive scale (rather than as collateral damage).

      • dingiri

        Indeed, the Tamil Nationalist propagandists have finally succumbed to their own inflated numbers.

        20,000 people died in Dresden where the entire city went up in flames after thousands of bombers bombed day and night.

        500 people diedn in Coventry, again when the enitre city was razed by thousands of German heavy bombers.

        But 146,000 Tamils were killed between the 1st and 19th of May by after being bombarded by just 40 artillery pieces! They did not try to run away and save their lives?

  • jansee

    yapa:

    “Do you have reliable figures for the number of Tamils killed?”

    Yes we have, we have proof of it, and we want a panel of INDEPENDENT INTERNATIONAL JURISts where both the SL regime and we could present that information and proof/evidence and we can take it up from there. Would you be kind enough to arrange for your regime to come forward and we have no qualms in coming forward with the proof and both can present the facts and figures and then it can then be settled. Surely I cannot present it to you or the regime as we are the disputing parties and we need an independent arbitrator to establish the facts. Over to you.

    • http://discourssions.wordpress.com yapa

      “Surely I cannot present it to you or the regime as we are the disputing parties…..”

      Why one cannot present facts to a disputing party, I don’t see any valid reason?

      On the other hand it will not only be read by disputing parties, anybody can read it.

      BTW, you have already presented “facts”, what is lacking is substantiating your claim. Your “fact” says it is 146,000. What is left is to simply substantiate it.

      Just give some figures added up to 146,000.

      My experience is false claims cannot be proved. You think possible? Please try.

      Thanks!

      • jansee

        yapa:

        “Why one cannot present facts to a disputing party, I don’t see any valid reason? ”

        haha: I expected this standard answer (question?) – this is typical of someone who hides behind such masks to hide his misdeeds. After all, a recalcitrant regime cannot be expected to come clean when those from the top are involved in a genocide. We, too, never expect the truth from this regime nor from its lackeys like you. We will get it in our own way. Oh, are you going to ask how we are going to do it? My answer would be, have a little bit patience, we will get it out.

        • http://discourssions.wordpress.com yapa

          Dear jansee;

          You have only two options. Either to prove your figure, 146,000 or to accept that it is false.

          Thanks!

          • Mapa

            Dear Yapa,

            How do you know the figures are false if you don’t know the true figures?

            Thanks!

          • http://brainoil.wordpress.com sharanga

            @Mapa,

            I don’t have a very high opinion about Yapa’s logic skills, but in this case he’s absolutely right. If you claim 146,000 people died, the onus is on you to prove it. The listener isn’t automatically needed to choose between disproving it or believing it. This is philosophy 101. You can claim that there’s a giant rabbit beyond the future light cone, but the onus is on you to prove it.

            I’m not saying 146,000 didn’t die. But if you claim that, and someone doubts it, the onus is on you to support your claim with evidence.

          • Off the Cuff

            Dear Mapa,

            Yapa has called Jansee’s bluff and she has back peddled. You have been questioning Yapa but have not questioned Jansee as Yapa has requested. Is it because you accept Jansee’s claim to be true? If so, can you justify the numbers that Jansee has failed to justify?

            Is it necessary to know the true figures to identify a bogus claim?
            Factors other than the exact figures can disrobe such claims.

            After the war about 300,000 Tamils lived in IDP camps.

            According to the latest census of the Vanni pre 2009, its Tamil population was 208,759 in 1981.

            The latest census of Jaffna pre 2009 was in 2007 which gave the Tamil population as 559,188. This population was not subjected to the 2009 war.

            About a million Tamils migrated to foreign lands deserting the mythical Eelam, giving the lie to the false Patriotism that these cowards profess today and which directly resulted in the forced recruitment and abduction of about 20,000 Tamil children that destroyed a future generation.

            Procreation amongst the Vanni Tamil population fell drastically as the young adult Tamils had a restricted sex life and a higher war related death toll (pre human shield).

            A report commissioned by HRW and AI states, “Analysis of the CSZ showed three gravesites with 1,346 burials between them. These graves grew in number between April and May 2009, and are corroborated by aerial photos taken by the UN after the conflict”

            US official view – “With an estimated 70,000 casualties over the years, it was a bitter and hard-fought victory, one of the few instances in modern history in which a terrorist group had been defeated militarily”

            The numbers don’t add up to the 146,000 claim for the final push and that flags it as Disgustingly Inflated and bogus. Hence the inability to answer Yapa factually.

            Hope you can prove that the USA, with all it’s intelligence gathering prowess, is hopelessly way off mark when she says that the war casualties during the thirty years of war (Terrorists, Tamil Sinhalese Muslim Burgher Malay civilians, IPKF and SL forces personnel) , is less than HALF THE NUMBER of just the TAMIL CIVILIANS claimed to have been killed in the FINAL PUSH!

            How dumb these Americans are! They cannot hold a candle to the intelligent Tamil Diaspora or Rev Rayappu Joseph! Ha haa haa.

        • http://discourssions.wordpress.com yapa

          Ayyo Mapa, you don’t understand that simple thing?

          Just like jansee, you claim something unbelievable, and fail to back the claim and avoid the question telling irrelevant things, then you are almost sure that claim is false.

          It is simple as that!

          jansee’s was a such claim, do you understand? In this process I don’t need to know the figure to know that jansee was making a foul claim. She is doing it with a foul intention.

          Thanks!

          • dingiri

            The Bishop of Mannar Rev. Rayappu came up with this figure of 146,000 as those missing from the Vanni from pre Nandikadal figures. He quotes as the previous population, the figure given by the LTTE as the Vanni population for the purposes of food, education and medical requirements for the Vanni. Now this includes several categories of people.

            1. The pre 20th century Tamil Vannias (as distinct from the Sinhala Vannias)

            2. The Jaffna Tamils who migrated into the Vanni from Jaffna after independence. Recipients of Govt. land under the Iranamadu scheme and the Scheme to give land to “Middle Class Tamils” for commercial scale farming.

            3. Upcountry Tamils of Indian recent Indian origin who were settled they by the Gandhian Scheme after the riots of 1977.

            4. 100,000 Tamils from the Jaffna peninsula who moved with the LTTE into the Vanni when the LTTE was repulsed from the Jaffna peninsula in 1994. These were Tamils with close links to the LTTE with familiy members either fighting or working for the LTTE. This group quickly became the new elite under the LTTE and were settled in the LTTE garrison areas on the Mullaitivu coast and hinterland. It ensured that the LTTE military establishments were surrounded by those very loyal to their cause. It is the group the forces were most suspicious of after the end of the war. They were not allowed to go back to the lands they were given by the LTTE in the Vanni. But have been sent back to their original pre 1994 homes in the Jaffna peninsula.

            So Bishop Rayappu is being mischievaou when he claims that 140,000 people are missing from the Vanni. Even if one is to accept the LTTE’s figures on the pre 2009 Vanni population one can see the obvious flaw in Bishop Rayappu’s calculation. Of course if confronted he will say that he never said 140,000 people were killed. All he said was that they are missing from the Vanni. He has said nothing about them being relocated to their pre 1994 abodes. However it was a very deliberate omission on his part. He had every intention that the Eelam lobby will later misinterpret the figure as the number of people killed by the Govt. forces.

            Of course the Govt. has totally shot itself in the foot here. If they had shown some humility and admitted International observers into the battle ground after the last battle, and performed a credible/honest body count and released the figures of how many army, LTTE, Civilian Men, Women, Elderly and children died, they wouldnt be in this situation today. Therefore I have very little sympathy for the SLG when I see them squirm at the UNHCR, tying themselves up in knots to defend their outragous zero civilian casualty claim.

          • jansee

            yapa:

            “jansee’s was a such claim, do you understand? In this process I don’t need to know the figure to know that jansee was making a foul claim. She is doing it with a foul intention.:

            Is t more foul than murdering 146,000 innocent civilians?

          • http://discourssions.wordpress.com yapa

            “Is t more foul than murdering 146,000 innocent civilians?”

            Sure!, having foul intentions is the thing that leads to all evils. murdering 146,000 civilians is a blatant lie.

            Thanks!

          • Off the Cuff

            Jansee,

            You ask “Is t more foul than murdering 146,000 innocent civilians?”

            Of course Jansee it is more foul since you are propagating a despicable lie. You are still to establish your figure Jansee, it’s becoming curvacious by the minute.

            There is a HOLE in your bucket dear Jansee dear Jansee, there is a gaping hole in your bucket dear Jansee a HOLE! ,,,Ha ha haa.

            You can’t blow a burst balloon! You blew it when you failed to meet Yapa’s challenge asking you to make good on your disgustingly inflated claim of 146,000 dead in the FINAL battle in May 2009 when the US Senate’s Foreign Relations Committee states, “……… With an estimated 70,000 casualties over the years,…..” (reproduced verbatim from a report dated 7 Dec 2009). Meaning that they estimate 70,000 casualties for the whole 30 year war.

            The US govt figure includes all those who were blown to bits by the innumerable LTTE attacks on Public Transport, Central Bank, Kabetigollawa, etc AND the Terrorist Dead AND the SLA dead AND those who died outside the war zone, Sinhalese dead AND Muslim dead AND the Burgher dead AND the Malay dead AND the other minority dead AND the Indian Origin Tamil dead AND the Tamil dead AND and the foreigners who died on attacks on Civil Aircraft.

            Perhaps these 146,000 are buried in the 1,346 graves identified in a report commissioned by HRW and AI that state, “Analysis of the CSZ showed three gravesites with 1,346 burials between them. These graves grew in number between April and May 2009, and are corroborated by aerial photos taken by the UN after the conflict”. Perhaps each of those MAN sized graves hold 100+ persons in each of them!

            The Americans, despite all their intelligence gathering prowess, seems puny in comparison to the intelligence gathering “Intelligence” of Jansee, Rev Rayappu Joseph and the gang! Ha ha haa.

          • Mapa

            Yapa’

            What is Jansee’s intention and what is so foul about it?

            Thanks!

          • Off the Cuff

            Mapa,

            You ask “What is Jansee’s intention and what is so foul about it?”

            I see that you have no answers to questions posed to you but Surely Mapa you cannot be that Naive and childish to not know the dangers of Rabble Rousing?

          • http://discourssions.wordpress.com yapa

            “What is Jansee’s intention and what is so foul about it?”

            Please ask jansee, she knows it better than me.

            Thanks!

    • Candidly

      Jansee, you claim that you (or as you put it “we”) have proof of the number of Tamils killed in the final stages of the civil war and you claim that figure is several tens of thousands. In that case its up to you to provide the appropriate authorities with that proof. That means in the context of this war you should give that proof to the United Nations or one of its bodies such as the Security Council, the UN General Secretary, the UN Human Rights Council or some such body.

      I challenge you to do so! Walk the talk, as Americans say.

      But I don’t think you will, because the nearest thing to proof that is available points to a figure of less than ten thousand total missing from the northern region including Tamil Tiger fighters.

      If you make an assertion claiming it to be a fact then you must provide the evidence. No one has to disprove the various anecdotal and anonymous allegations that the casualty figures were in the region of the tens or hundreds of thousands, since anyone can make such allegations. Evidence acceptable by reasonable, sane people has to be provided. Otherwise, in the absence of evidence (such as bodies, human remains, mass graves, lists of names, etc.) there is no reason in science, law, or common sense to accept the claim of tens of thousands of Tamil civilian casualties.

      I repeat: if you have proof, then provide it and take it to the United Nations.

      • jansee

        Candidly:

        Looks like there are no shortage of suitors for the SL regime. You mean to say that you can tell me to whom I should divulge or surrender this information> Have you forgotten (oh sorry, pretend to forget) that a UN commission report (Petrie Report on SL), it has implicated itself in a very serious way. So, stop being a professor and don’t lecture to me on how to do it.

        The regime denied vehemently of zero civilian casualties. Then it admitted there were, in fact, 7,000 civilian casualties. Did you question this regime why it lied initially? Stop being lackeys of this regime and wake up from your slumber. Typical of a sinhala mindset.

  • jansee

    off the cuff:

    “Of course Jansee it is more foul since you are propagating a despicable lie. You are still to establish your figure Jansee, it’s becoming curvacious by the minute.”

    You did not question the SL regime when it denied killing any civilians at all and then, when pressure piled, admitted to “some” casualties”? And you are talking about holes and credibility. Remember the Chemmani incident and the vehement initial denial by the SL regime. I know for a fact that there are indeed thousands of “HOLES” to be dug up where thousands of innocent civilians have bee murdered and buried.

    Why is this regime refusing to allow independent investigators into the affected areas? What has it got to hide? Why can’t it come clean? This is a murderous regime and lackeys like you will sing the same hosanas like the regime. You can go on with your charade but we will make sure that this regime pays for its act of genocide.

    We have the figures to prove how this regime murdered more than 100,000 civilians during the last stages of the war but why should we turn over this information to skewed sinhala mindsets like you? BTW, did you, too, receive any laptops from this regime?

    • Off the Cuff

      Jansee,

      You say “We have the figures to prove how this regime murdered more than 100,000 civilians during the last stages of the war”

      Wow the 146,000 has already come down to 100,000!!! ….. Ha ha haa.
      The problem with you echoing Rayappu Joseph is that you are clueless as to how Rayappu arrived at his figure. When faced with factual evidence of the Vanni population you cannot maintain your 146,000 figure as the numbers become GREATER than the population that existed.

      US Foreign Relations Committee does not agree with your figures.
      Amnesty International does not agree with your figures
      Human Rights Watch does not agree with your figures
      Satellite Photographs does not support your figure
      UNSG’s low altitude Photographs of the NFZ does not support your figure

      Don’t make claims on a public platform that you cannot justify when challenged for evidence. If you want to keep the evidence private, keep your claims private too. You cannot publicly undress and ask the public not to look at the exposed detail!

      Jansee your bluff was called by Yapa and now you are floundering like a fish out of water.

      You say Why is this regime refusing to allow independent investigators into the affected areas? What has it got to hide? Why can’t it come clean?”

      I think you have amnesia. Please visit the UN website and listen to the speech delivered by Dr Dayan Jayatilake at the UNHCR.

      Can you cite a SINGLE precedence where a victorious government of a country had been investigated or asked to come clean for winning a war?

      You say “This is a murderous regime and lackeys like you will sing the same hosanas like the regime. You can go on with your charade but we will make sure that this regime pays for its act of genocide”

      War is murder.
      That is what the LTTE did.
      Did you think a govt would continue to turn the other cheek while a terrorist group murders the citizenry with bombs placed in Public Transport, cuts off water for 30,000 civilians and hold over 300,000 of her Civilian citizens captive in a human shield?

      Ranil W turned the other cheek for several years.
      Chandrika B did it and offered the Megalomaniac Terrorist leader the Chief Ministerial position of the combined North and East Provinces for 10 years without an election. Unfortunately he thought that he could do the same with Mahinda. So did the LTTE Rump (of which you are one), who till the last minute would Fast to death eating Fast Food and block Western Highways waving terrorist flags trying to pressure Western govts or India to intervene and save the megalomaniac and his gang again.

      You and the LTTE ignored two cessations of hostilities declared to allow the civilians to move to safety. You wanted Power and gambled with the lives of the Wanni Tamils. You are responsible for their deaths. You are responsible for the Child Soldiers.

      You would be aware of Ms. Meena Nallainathan. She is a Sri Lankan Tamil journalist living in Canada. In an article published in Canada she quotes two other Sri Lankan Tamils from Canada.

      Ckrhushchev’s mission is to show how the pro-Tiger press obscures the truth. ………… In that 2006 column under the pseudonym, for example, he wrote about gratuitous killings committed during the Sri Lankan ceasefire. He said that the Tigers simply would not stop killing; that the leadership didn’t want them to lose their desire to kill, so they dusted off a list of traitors from old, opposing Tamil political factions. According to Ckrhushchev, the Tigers didn’t want the international community to know this, and so the term “unidentified gunmen” began appearing in the Tiger press. For people in the diaspora, it was a coded message: “Unidentified gunmen” meant the Tigers did the killing; it also identified the victim as a traitor.

      Ckrhushchev is particularly keen on showing how the Tiger press bombards its readers with a potent message: the Tamils are victims. The currency of war for the Tigers is the suffering of Tamils. Riots against Tamils occurred between 1956 and 1983. Stories of Sinhalese mobs butchering Tamils, burning Tamil homes and businesses, raping women and burning others alive have been repeated as a mantra. But at the time of the 1983 riots, many Sinhalese actually protected their Tamil neighbours. Today, there are Sinhalese and Tamil human rights activists working together in Sri Lanka.

      Ponnambalam tells me about the day he was riding in the car with a friend, listening to a political talk show on CTBC, a local Tamil radio station. He called in and, once on-air, delivered an extemporaneous 10- minute lecture. “I identified myself,” he says. “No point in hiding it because everybody knows the voice.” He acknowledges the many Tiger supporters in Canada, but goes on to say that none support the cause to the extent that they will urge their children to become suicide bombers or fighters.

      How true Jansee, how true. Did you urge your children to become suicide bombers or fighters?

      You ask “BTW, did you, too, receive any laptops from this regime?”

      I wonder whether you are adept at dancing for you to be so informed about Laptops. As for me those types are not my cup of tea. But thanks anyway for the kind thought. Save your services for those in need. Ha ha haa.

  • jansee

    off the cuff:

    “Yapa has called Jansee’s bluff and she has back peddled”

    At least I have a reason to call you a liar.

    Let the regime and its lackeys like you have sleepless nights in what comes out in the future. Surely we are not that naive to “ask the monkeys to look after the bananas”?

    “After the war about 300,000 Tamils lived in IDP camps.”

    I wonder how the assertion by the regime of only 70,000 suddenly jumped to 300,000? Not enough bombs? Oh, I am sorry, what the regime claims is always the gospel truth!

    “Is it necessary to know the true figures to identify a bogus claim?

    I really envy you. MR made a statement together with UNSG Ban Ki Moon, perhaps to slip out of a situation. That ended with the appointment of the Darusman Panel Report. I think you should calmly, quietly and intelligently re-read your above question and see what it reveals. If you need any assistance, please do let me know. Seek and you will be delivered.

    “Factors other than the exact figures can disrobe such claims.”

    Like what? You mean like Mahinda Samarasinghe telling a different story each time he speaks in the UNHRC?

    “About a million Tamils migrated to foreign lands deserting the mythical Eelam, giving the lie to the false Patriotism that these cowards profess today and which directly resulted in the forced recruitment and abduction of about 20,000 Tamil children that destroyed a future generation.”

    So, you are telling the whole world that the 1956 riots, the 1983 black July, the burning of the Jaffna Library, the Chemmani incidents are all concocted stories just to placate foreign nations to desert SL?
    You do seem to have a faltering memory – have you forgotten that thousands of Sinhalese were butchered by the SL regime. Incidentally, some corpses (peace be to them) were recently discovered. You must have a different story by now.

    “Procreation amongst the Vanni Tamil population fell drastically as the young adult Tamils had a restricted sex life”

    How many hats are your trying to wear? You must have conducted an in-depth study on the sex lives of the Tamils? I didn’t know that they were that open. I salute you for winning their confidence.

    “The numbers don’t add up to the 146,000 claim for the final push and that flags it as Disgustingly Inflated and bogus. Hence the inability to answer Yapa factually.”

    So, what is the reluctance to allow independent investigators to the war affected areas to verify who is telling the truth? Are you afraid the truth will come out?

    “Hope you can prove that the USA, with all it’s intelligence gathering prowess, is hopelessly way off mark when she says that the war casualties during the thirty years of war (Terrorists, Tamil Sinhalese Muslim Burgher Malay civilians, IPKF and SL forces personnel) , is less than HALF THE NUMBER of just the TAMIL CIVILIANS claimed to have been killed in the FINAL PUSH!”

    Just like going to war with Iraq on a bogus claim on weapons of mass destruction?

    “How dumb these Americans are! They cannot hold a candle to the intelligent Tamil Diaspora or Rev Rayappu Joseph! Ha haa haa.”

    Yes, I agree with you on this – they are dumb enough to force a resolution in the UNHRC. Your dumb Minister could not hold his tongue and excitement and opened his loud mouth to claim that India will be voting for SL. Now, with Swaziland as the latest addition to the friendship stable, look who is talking about intelligence here.

  • Off the Cuff

    Mapa,

    If you cannot see the Foulness of an exorbitantly inflated Death Toll and the consequences of such a claim on the psyche of the minorities and the adverse reactions of any outside observer, if such claim is allowed to go unchallenged, then you should not be in an Adult discussion.

    I suppose you would not be disturbed if someone calls you and tells you while you are at work, away from your home, that thugs have broken in to your home and your wife has been killed. That these thugs are still in your home and are violating your daughters and that a part of the house is burning and no one is there to help.

    I suppose you will not see the Foulness of such an informant and the foulness of such a message when you later discover that it was false.

    There are several posts addressed to you on this web page which you have been avoiding to answer. Under the circumstances, why should Yapa answer you when you fear to question Jansee!

    • Sarath Fernando

      Dear Off the Cuff,
      Yes, you are correct – if indeed there is a claim of “an exorbitantly inflated Death Toll and the consequences of such” – that should not be left unchallenged. It is also not unlike the need to challenge the opposing claim that was first expressed by senior leaders of the regime that there was “absolutely no civilian deaths”, or even the hesitant retraction thereafter to “only minimal civilian casualty” when the original bold-faced lie fell through the holes.

      Logic would dictate that only an independent verification could unearth the truth between the two opposing challenges. Logic would also suggest that it will be the one who is weary of the truth coming out who is likely to oppose and scuttle such an investigation.

      Since, as you suggest, you (and I, and am sure Yapa as you have now obviously convinced him/her) would like to put to rest the claim of “exorbitantly inflated Death Toll and the consequences of such”, may I ask, would you support a call for independent verification, independent of interference?

      Please don’t say the hackneyed “who is independent?” – we can cross that bridge when we come to that. I am sure we could find sufficient independent minds that we all can agree on for such an investigation if we earnestly desire. One step at a time! So, the first question is would you agree an independent investigation is the way to go. Do you think it will also be in the interest of the majority to support such an investigation – not just the minority? Just curious!

      • Off the Cuff

        Dear Sarath Fernando,

        “Yes, you are correct – if indeed there is a claim of “an exorbitantly inflated Death Toll and the consequences of such” – that should not be left unchallenged.” yours of 01/10/2013 • 9:41 pm refers.

        Thank you for seeing eye to eye with what I have written. But I am puzzled by your subsequent statement, commencing with “if indeed” within quotes. More so, because you have correctly identified the opposing claim of “absolutely no civilian deaths”, or even the hesitant retraction thereafter to “only minimal civilian casualty” as a bold-faced lie, without the help of an independent inquiry .

        There is a Sinhala saying, which many of us have heard from our childhood days, that states, “Stones don’t have Eyes”. In our society, the above phrase is in common use to warn a child who throws stones, the danger of indiscriminate damage, stone throwing can cause. Every Sri Lankan child who have been exposed to indiscriminate bombing for 30 long years would therefore know, that Bombs and Bullets do more indiscriminate damage than stones.

        Hence yes, those who made claims of zero civilian deaths in a war, made an UTTERLY foolish claim that is an affront even to the intelligence of a Sri Lankan child, let alone an adult. But conflating such crass foolishness and advancing it as an excuse to justify a much more foolish and potentially much more damaging and dangerous claim, of 146,000 CIVILIAN ONLY deaths in just 18 days of war, is to say the least, despicably horrendous.

        What prevented you from applying the self same logic, that enabled you to identify the imbecile govt claim as a Bold Faced Lie, to identify the equally or more imbecile and despicably horrendous claim by Rev Rayappu Joseph, echoed by Jansee, of 146,000 CIVILIAN deaths in 18 days of May alone, to the EXCLUSION of Terrorist Deaths? Is it not self-evident that this is Rabble Rousing? What would have been the claimed death toll if you ADD the Terrorist deaths during these 18 days to it?

        I believe an explanation by you is in order.

        Talking of logic, how would you arrive at a death toll restricted to 18 days in May 2009 if you don’t know the number of people who were living in this area on the 31st April 2009? The number of person’s living in the area on 31 April 2009 is crucial to establish the claim, since we know with absolute certainty the number who came out alive. Are there any figures that the LTTE had no influence on, available to confirm this? Can any independent inquiry unearth this? If yes please enumerate in detail.

        I have elsewhere on this web page, addressed a post to Mapa (01/05/2013 • 4:03 am) giving factual data extracted from an AI and HRW commissioned report that analyzed the CSZ and comments on the number and growth of graves using satellite imagery and low level photographs taken during UNSG’s Helicopter inspection of the CSZ. I have also provided the last known enumerated details of the population in the Wanni. Is there proof that the Wanni Tamil population procreated in step with the rest of the Tamil population that was not subjected to LTTE restrictions, forced conscription, executions and a war? Is there proof of the numbers that migrated and emigrated? Can any independent inquiry unearth these?

        Has anyone countered the known facts to justify what the unknown that they claim?
        Jansee who made the claim has not been able to. She is alluding to some mythical existence of such evidence, which according to her, if revealed, would lose its value (no surprises there).
        Mapa has not been able to. (He is stuck in a repeating grove and keeps asking Yapa instead of Jansee)

        AI or HRW has not subscribed to this 146,000 claim.
        The US senate has made a smaller estimate for the whole 30 years.

        You say “Logic would dictate that only an independent verification could unearth the truth between the two opposing challenges.”

        I beg to differ. Unless you can prove the numbers that were alive on 31 April 2009 with certainty with recourse to data that the LTTE had no influence on, Logic would dictate it would be a wild goose chase that will only further the aims of Rabble Rousing and incitement.

        “Logic would also suggest that it will be the one who is weary of the truth coming out who is likely to oppose and scuttle such an investigation.”

        I believe your conclusion is illogical. If that were the case all the govts of the world would be doing nothing other than inquiring in to frivolous allegations. I have nothing against an internal independent inquiry, but proof that the allegation is not frivolous must be adduced. Claims such as Jansee’s where she insinuates that evidence exist but fails to deliver when challenged, flags such claim as frivolous.

        If what is envisaged is an external investigation, then a regimen of existing law that provides for such an investigation with precedents of an investigation under similar circumstances must be produced as everyone and every country should be equal before the Law.

        • Gamarala

          Off the cuff,

          To claim that the massacre of thousands of civilians, under unknown circumstances and especially given that the government has been caught lying, are mere “frivolous allegations”, is a sign that your moral compass is pointing far off north, perhaps to cuckoo-land? ;-)

          This “see no evil, hear no evil”, let’s not rabble rouse and just forget about it kind of thinking, is a general reflection on the maturity of our society, as it is echoed by more people than just you unfortunately, and stands in stark contrast to a mature approach to problem solving.

          A future for our country cannot be build on pleasant lies and general amnesia, don’t you think?

          • Off the Cuff

            Gamarala,

            If you have the ability to counter the facts stated, please do so, before you consult your failing “Compass”.

            You say “To claim that the massacre of thousands of civilians, under unknown circumstances and especially given that the government has been caught lying, are mere “frivolous allegations”, is a sign that your moral compass is pointing far off north, perhaps to cuckoo-land? “

            Your “Compass” has lost the ability to point, as it is too close to, an influenced by, immorality. Hence probably it was pointing to Cuckoo Land when you LAST consulted it. Ha ha haa.

            If you are have nothing worthwhile to contribute and yet has the urge to be busy, you could ask your better half, the Gamamahage, who saved your life by keeping the Devil you let lose, from devouring you, by keeping him busy the rest of his life, trying to straighten a certain “Curly”, to give you another “Curly” to keep you busy. Ha ha haa.

            You say “This “see no evil, hear no evil”, let’s not rabble rouse and just forget about it kind of thinking, is a general reflection on the maturity of our society, as it is echoed by more people than just you unfortunately, and stands in stark contrast to a mature approach to problem solving.”

            Glad to note that this time around, you have elected a mature approach.

            Only time would tell whether you can sustain that purported maturity or whether you inane and irrepressible immaturity would resurface. On every previous occasion you degenerated to a very immature level that would shame even an intelligent child.

            You say “A future for our country cannot be build on pleasant lies and general amnesia, don’t you think?”

            Sure I agree but then who has Amnesia is seen when you re read the previous engagements between you and me.

            Since you have now stepped up to join the discussion and has taken Rayappu Joseph’s and Jansee’s position, put the rhetoric aside and prove

            1. That between 1 – 18 May 2009, CIVILIANS killed amount to 146,000.
            2. The number of TERRORISTS killed during the same period.
            3. The population that LIVED within the area subjected to these killings as on 31 April 2009

            It would be interesting to see how you maintain 1, without knowledge of 2 and 3.

            In order to keep the discussion at a MATURE level, please note that it is a FACT that CIVILIANS were killed and is not disputed (what the IC would label and has labeled as collateral damage when such occurred and keeps occurring, within their own conflicts). What is disputed is the INFLATED number which is Rabble Rousing. It is also noted that these civilians were held captive, in a Human Shield by the Terrorists (which generally does not apply to IC’s collateral damage). It is also a fact that in order to allow the movement of civilians to safety, two cessations of hostilities were declared and observed.

            Instead of just Talking the Talk about Mature problem solving and blah blah blah let’s Walk the Talk.

        • Sarath Fernando

          Dear Off the Cuff,

          One step at a time. Here is a question that should not be difficult to answer.

          Even without an independent investigation, you have credible information that has convinced you the civilian casualty was not zero (implication of “those who made claims of zero civilian deaths in a war, made an UTTERLY foolish claim”). Similarly, even without investigation you are certain that the civilian casualty is not 149,000 (implication from “disgustingly inflated claim of 146,000 dead”).

          From the information you have to date, could you tell us what your best guess or estimate is on the likely range of Civilian deaths?

          As for your question “What prevented you from applying the self same logic, that enabled you to identify the imbecile govt claim as a Bold Faced Lie,” – I called it a bold faced lie, because the Government who officially declared the zero-casualty in no uncertain terms (and in retrospect, UTTERLY FOOLIHSLY as you confirm) in both local and international media themselves officially recanted that. That sheepish recanting is what made it obvious that it was a Bold Faced lie (and hence qualifying as UTTERLY FOOLISH).

          May I ask you – how valiantly did you publicly condemn or question the foolish zero claim before the Government recanted that – I hope you did that with the same zest that you display here in challenging Jansee. Would love to see all of your postings on that.

          • Off the Cuff

            Dear Sarath Fernando,

            You say “Even without an independent investigation, you have credible information that has convinced you the civilian casualty was not zero”

            I have credible information that bombs and bullets were used in fighting the war. Hence I KNOW that civilian casualties could not be Zero as both Bombs and Bullets can kill indiscriminately.
            Even a 10 year old would know it.
            Remember the admonishment “Stones do not have Eyes”?
            I am surprised that you need outside help to realize it!

            I have not claimed any numbers, only that it could not have been zero.
            Hence there is nothing else for me to prove beyond that numbers were definitely not Zero.

            You ask “From the information you have to date, could you tell us what your best guess or estimate is on the likely range of Civilian deaths?”

            I hope you have observed that Rayappu and Jansee specifies a period of 18 days starting from 1 May 2009 during which 146,000 civilians are alleged to have been killed. Of course you will also acknowledge that non civilians such as Terrorists and SLA died during that period as well. Hence only a fool would attempt to filter the number of civilians without even the basic information.

            1. The population that LIVED within the area subjected to these killings as on 31 April 2009
            2. The number of TERRORISTS killed during the same period.

            Are you foolhardy enough to venture even a guess, in the absence of Basic Information? I definitely am not.

            However the US Senate estimates the casualties during the whole 30 year war to be about 70,000. That includes those who died outside the war zone in bomb attacks on Public Transport (including bus stands and Railway stations and Airports), Central Bank bomb blast, Civil Air craft, Foreigners and Sri Lankan civilians, SLA personnel and Terrorists. Rayappu and Jansee claim over double that amount in just over 2 weeks and the claimed figure excludes the Terrorists. Hence in comparison to the US figure, Rayappu’s and Jansee’s claims definitely look Ludicrous wont you agree?

            You say “I called it a bold faced lie, because the Government who officially declared the zero-casualty in no uncertain terms (and in retrospect, UTTERLY FOOLIHSLY as you confirm) in both local and international media themselves officially recanted that. That sheepish recanting is what made it obvious that it was a Bold Faced lie (and hence qualifying as UTTERLY FOOLISH”

            Modern wars are not fought in the absence of civilians, unlike in the old days, where adversaries met on a battle ground sans civilians. Modern wars use weapons that have the potential for indiscriminate killing and almost always civilians are present where wars are fought. Hence I and many others would have detected the Lie the moment it was uttered. Long before the sheepish recanting.

            No wonder you have difficulty in identifying the ludicrous claim of Jansee and Rayappu. You must be waiting for them to do a sheepish recant.

            You say “May I ask you – how valiantly did you publicly condemn or question the foolish zero claim before the Government recanted that – I hope you did that with the same zest that you display here in challenging Jansee. Would love to see all of your postings on that.”

            Are you having difficulty in answering the questions I raised in my post of 01/11/2013 • 6:45 pm addressed to you? It appears to me that you are Floundering like a fish out of water and stumbling to answer questions that arose from your own post to me. I note that you have AVOIDED answering the questions I have raised in my post to you. Is the Red Herring you are now trying to use, an attempt to AVOID answering questions that you have no way of providing an intelligent answer to?

            Come on Sarath, surely you had enough Data in hand to establish that in just 18 days 146,000 civilian died when you decided to throw the gauntlet. Why don’t you set these out and educate the GV readership (myself included)?

            Or were you hoping to Bluff your way?

  • Candidly

    How many people died in World War 2? We don’t know.
    Has there ever been an independent investigation to find out? No.
    Has that prevented subsequent reconciliation? No.

    We can ask the same questions about other major wars over the last half century. In some cases there have been investigations, though not usually independent, in other cases there have not been investigations. But whether there has or has not seems to bear little relation to whether there has subsequently been reconciliation between the previously warring factions.

    In Syria there has recently been a meticulous counting of civilian casualties, but it has not stopped the civil war. In Northern Ireland the number of casualties during the 30 year “troubles” was scrupulously recorded, but still some factions are fighting, not against each other but against the police!

    After the Israel-Gaza conflict in 2008 there was also a meticulous counting of casualties on both sides and a UN “independent” inquiry. Did either of those events help bring about reconciliation? No.

    There’s no evidence from experience and history that a so-called independent investigation into the number and nature of casualties during the final stages of the conflict in Sri Lanka will in any way contribute to present and future reconciliation.

    Leave it to the historians and the next generation, I say.