All Party Representative Committee (APRC) Final Report: Executive Summary
Groundviews received the executive summary of the APRC’s final report today. Download the report here.
Salient features covered in the Executive Summary include:
- Nature of the State
- Form of Government
- Status of Buddhism
- Official languages and national languages
- Use of the English language
- Supremacy of the constitution
- Safeguards against secession
- Electoral system
- Power sharing
- Senate
- Community Council
- Distribution of powers between central and provincial
- National and provincial higher appointments council
- Amendment procedure
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APRC: Govt. in the opposition – Wants discussions expunged
From http://www.dailymirror.lk/print/index.php/news/front-page-news/16266.html
The government yesterday opposed the tabling of the APRC report in Parliament by UNP National List MP R. Yogarajan. Mr. Yogarajan, during his speech in the House, tried to table this document with recommendations for constitutional changes in the House. Government MP A.H.M. Azwer who raised a Point of Order asked on what authority Mr. Yogarajan sought to table this report in the House.
Mr. Azwer asked whether the approval from APRC Chairman Prof. Tissa Vitarane was obtained in this regard?
Mr. Azwer said that the APRC was a body appointed by President Mahinda Rajapaksa. According to Standing Orders, he said this could not be tabled in the House in this manner. Chief Government Whip Dinesh Gunawardane said that unless all the members of the APRC members signed the document, it could not be considered a valid document.
Mr. Yogarajan said that he as a member of the APRC, had signed it along with a few others. Such as Nizar Karsapper of the SLMC. However, the government insisted that it be expunged from the Hansard.
Deputy Chairman of the Committees Murugesu Chandrakumar said that he would examine the relevant Standing Orders and take action appropriately.
From the beginning everyone knows that this is going to be waste of time, energy and money. This is to fool the International comunity and to just mark time. Most people knows what will happen to this. The APC Meeting after the 1983 riots which killed 4000 civilians and destroyed and burned 95% of Tamils Properties and Industries did not find any solution. Both UNP & SLFP took tamils just for the political stunts.
shouldn’t a final report be signed by the chairman and all the others supporting… funny how buddhism is still given primacy of position… and so it will continue
xman,
“Funny how buddhism is still given primacy of position… and so it will continue” –
Yes so what??? Let’s be real here and not just make comments to stir the pot…. Though Buddhism is given primacy of position it does not infringe on the rights of other religions… Please refer the SL Constitution Articles 10 and 14 (c) and (e) which specifically safeguards the rights of other religions… many countries have such state (official) religions and this is not uncommon and is given primacy of position….
The “Church of England” in the UK is a prime example of this… and this is only a denomination of a religion (a further segmentation) …Furthermore, UK, Canada, Australia etc… all have a “Head of State” – who is called the “Defender of the Faith” and the “Head of the Church” but no one seems to have a problem with that either… ….. Why the double standards???
Is what is good for those countries not good for small Sri Lanka in your esteemed opinion??? Try to curb your hypocrisy please!!!!
Diffperspective,
The Church of England is the established church of England, not of UK. UK has no official/state religions. The monarch has responsibilities towards the COE, but parliament does not. And there’s no primacy of this religion–the government does not fund the COE with public money. Canada has no official religion. The monarch is described as Defender of the Faith, but what that faith is has not been specified. The Australian Constitution prohibits the Commonwealth from ever establishing a church. All these countries you mentioned are secular states.
You seem to think that Buddhism is the official religion of Sri Lanka. Just to clarify, according to your Constitution, Buddhism is not the official religion of the state. It is never called this in your Constitution, i.e. Sri Lanka is not a Buddhist state in the way that Iran is an Islamic state. There is merely an obligation by government to provide for the religion, to see to its development. If there is a state religion, that means that governance must defer to the principles of the official/state religion.
I think that is an important point to make because if one religion is the state religion, then by necessity, there is already in principle discrimination of people of other faiths in Sri Lanka. They are being ruled by an alien faith.
However, Sri Lanka behaves as if Buddhism is the state religion, and monks have political power. Politics and religion should be kept separate. This needs to be addressed. The Constitution needs to be clarified, and the minorities should insist that the words “secular state” appears in the Constitution before they agree to be part of a unitary state.
Dear Diffperspective,
In UK, anglicanism is not thrust upon the citizens like what is happening in north lanka now……………………
http://tamilnet.com/art.html?catid=13&artid=32038
Prince Charles has said that he will be “Defender of Faith” and not “Defender of the Faith” when he suceeds Queen Elizabeth II.
Sinhala / Buddhists survived many invasions from non-Buddhists throughout the ages. From Southern India, Arab-islamists and Europeans with various versions of Christianity. And now we have materialist invasions as well.
So we have faced non/ Buddhist values and world views throughout the ages and MOST of that time we did not have the statement or even a constitution for that matter. BUT we managed to educate ourselves in Sinhala and Buddhist System of Education survived.
So my point as a Sinhala Buddhist is that WE DO NOT NEED THIS STATEMENT in our constitution because IF as Sinhala-Buddhist we do not spend part of our life, resources to safe guard Buddhist way of life and Sinhala NOBODY is going to. WE DO NOT NEED THIS MEANINGLESS STATEMENT WHICH HAS NO VALUE IN THE SRI LANKA CONSTITUTION AND ATTRACT UNDUE CRITICISM AND EXPOSURE.
Buddhist Education and World View and Sinhala can ONLY be protected by Buddhist and Sinhalese respectively.
Sinhala Buddhists do not need meaningless statements like the state shall give foremost place to Buddhism. Sinhalese and Buddhist must know what to give foremost place, study and understand the world view and in doing so protect it and promote it.
Buddhism and Sinhala was protected by Sinhalese when there was no constitution and therefore no statements as above in the constitutions
Leave governance to government.
MG
“You seem to think that Buddhism is the official religion of Sri Lanka. Just to clarify, according to your Constitution, Buddhism is not the official religion of the state.” –
I am not sure where you got that idea from… Please read my comment carefully… All I am saying is – though the constitution gives Buddhism “primacy” – it does not infringe on other religions and gives all other religions their rights…. That is all!!! My example of the UK was to show that other countries too give primacy to various religions… England (as you say ) to the CoE,. You can claim the UK to be secular but the facts of the matter speaks for itself at least with regard to England and Scotland.. In addition i can mention Denmark, Norway, Finland, Greece, Iceland,etc that gives some form of Christianity primacy… With regards to Australia and Canada all I said was they have a head of state who calls herself “Defender of the Faith” and “Head of the Church” I never said they were not secular!!! However, Let me be very clear.. I do not think Buddhism is the State religion or that it should be!!! However, i do not have problem the constitution giving Buddhism primacy like all the above mentioned countries giving other religions.
“And there’s no primacy of this religion–the government does not fund the COE with public money” -
Whether you accept it or not when the “Head of the Church” and “The Defender of the Faith” is paid with public money then you are perpetuating the COE and funding it…Public funds may not be used for day to day expenses but nevertheless… It is used to perpetuate the religion!!! You may not want to categorize it as such, but that is what you have been conditioned to say !!!!!! On the other hand i am not sure where the SL govt.. funds Buddhism. out of public funds.. I know there is a Buddhist Ministry, but so a ministry for Christianity and Hinduism etc… with the exception of the funding for these ministries and their activities can you tell me where public funds are used for Buddhism in SL..
” I think that is an important point to make because if one religion is the state religion, then by necessity, there is already in principle discrimination of people of other faiths in Sri Lanka. They are being ruled by an alien faith”
So do you think Norway, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Greece etc, and England who calls the COE “Established church” are wrong to have a State/ Established religion?? However, as i have clarified above no one is saying Buddhism is or should be a state religion!!! so where is the discrimination??? I am not a Buddhist and live in Sri Lanka and I face absolutely no discrimination in practicing my faith.
“However, Sri Lanka behaves as if Buddhism is the state religion, and monks have political power”
Yes some Sri Lankans do think it is the state religion… no doubt about it ,but that is the fault of the those people not the constitution or the Govt/s (past/present) I lived and studied in the US for many many years and many people, including presidents and politicians use to say this is a “Christian Country” “Christian values” etc… that is the ignorance of the people…. With regard to Buddhist monks having political power- certainly they do because of their followers… the same way the Anglican Church has political power in the UK and the Christian Right including their priests and pastors having political power in the US… That is inevitable and part of democracy!!!
“Politics and religion should be kept separate”. –
i agree, but tell me one country where religious organizations and their leaders do not play politics – certainly not in the “land of the free and home of the brave” where in its constitution separates the church and the state and neither in the countries I have mentioned above!!! The recent example of the Burkha Ban in France a supposedly secular “enlightened” country is another!!!
Ultimately it is the people who live in the country who decides what is good and what is bad, what is acceptable and what is not… Once they do, they will either reap the benefits or suffer the repercussions!!! I for one do not believe in nitpicking these issues and pontificating.. No where is perfect… as long as more good is done than bad then we are on the right track.. I believe SL to be in this track.. there are a lot of mistakes and wrongs to be corrected but a lot of good to be acknowledged and appreciated too…
Dear Justitia,
With regards to your comment on the what is happening in the North…. I was in the North last month and spent two weeks and am a frequent visitor there and have been since the cessation of the hostilities…. Sorry I do not see such a thrust as is claimed!!! But then again ….. “Opinions are like A–e Ho-es, Every one has one”
Sinhala_Voice
I am not a Sinhala Buddhist.. but I have no problem one way or another with that “primacy” Clause… Have it if you want it , get rid of it if you want it too….
Ultimately what is important is not what is in a piece of paper but what is in the hearts of the people!!! I am more involved in changing peoples minds and making them more tolerant towards different perspectives (hence my pseudo name) than changing what is written by a bunch of politicians!!!
But your point is taken!!!
An outstanding enunciation about separating ‘Independence, Responsibility & Obligation of Individuality’ from the ‘Governance’- the Politics is said by Mr. Sinhala_Voice. It conveys broad in-depth message to everyone who believes in unity, respectability and prosperity of our country. As he said Buddhism and the Sinhalese race has survived through millennia with all trials and tribulation without such neon-banners; and still will continue to survive without such displays, so is with the Tamils too. Our way of life and the way we project ourselves, in day-to-day activities and affairs, to world distinguish us from others and earn a good or bad name for us.
Our cricketers, everyone, have earned enviously unique place in the sphere of sports – the cricketing world – by their performance ONLY – not by their ‘Individualism’; and thus enhanced the national image as ‘Sri Lankan Cricketers’. Even after 15 years, Arjuna is still known as the Sri Lankan legendry Captain who brought World-Cup to Lanka but not as a Sri Lankan legendry Buddhist captain – lately not even as an MP or an ex-minister. So is with Murali, the World Record holder, too – not as Sri Lankan Hindu Tamil spinner.
On the other hand, what our politicians have brought? They accumulate national debt and barrage of controversial charges of ‘War Crimes and HR Violations’ against their governance – under the glossy banner of ‘Buddhist Sinhalese’ jingoism. While politicians hail those charges as an added feather in their caps the cricketers amass fame and ensure an eternal place for the country in the World-Stage. Let Politics play for Good Governance! Thank you, Mr. Sinhala_Voice! Nithy!
Diffperspective
In Norway, the constitutional demand that more than half of the members of the Council of State have to be Evangelical-Lutheran is being contested. In Greece, they merely identify the Eastern orthodox Church of Christ as the “prevailing religion” of the country. It’s not an official state religion. In Denmark, there is merely the obligation of the state to “support” the church. France is described in the constitution as a “secular” republic.
European nations came into being in the medieval era, in the crucible of religious wars, and their national identity turned quite significantly on which side they belonged to in the Christian religious schism. Hence the identification of established churches. They may retain some of these provisions, but don’t observe them any more in any significant way. Those are not the circumstances in which post-colonial nations were formed in the 20th century. Because of colonialism, there had been immigrants from various cultures. You can’t have a multicultural, multi-religious nation with one religion singled out as the state religion. The state’s support of Buddhism and Buddhist culture (in terms of financial support) is acceptable in that it is an important part of SL heritage. But the state should not be involved in promoting Buddhist values—it needs to be religiously neutral.For eg, at national ceremonies, you can’t just have Buddhist rituals.
As for the religion-politics divide, I don’t know of any other secular nation that has a political party like the JHU that is led by monks and where most of the legislators are monks. Is there a Hindu/Christian/Muslim party led by its religious leaders in SL? How did a party like JHU acquire legitimacy in a country which has no state religion according to its Constitution?
MG,
Good post. I see people like Diffperspective state that, giving foremost place and state protection to Buddhism in the constitution has no meaning and it does not infringe other religions; basically it is total nonsense! If it has no meaning, one should ask as to why it is there then!
During CBK’s tenure, in the town of Trincomalee, the local Sinhala Auto drives with the help of the armed forces planted a Buddha statue overnight. The subsequent events stand as testimony that once a Buddha Statue is planted anywhere in the country, it cannot be removed should one were to protest! In this case the Supreme Court ruled that, any attempt to remove the statue was deemed as against the constitution. Though the local provisions require one to obtain permission before planting statues of that nature in public places, when it comes to Buddha statues, the constitutional provision will come into play. This is why it is there!
Diffperspective claims that he is not a Buddhist and he sacrificed his highlife in the US to serve his country. Moreover, his profession takes him to all over the country including the North and East, and claims that there are no Buddha statues planted! He must have missed some articles appearing on the Groundviews exactly on this point. Why is that, those who wrote articles here saw Buddha statues planted within the N&E after the fall of the LTTE that this gentleman could not see?
Dear MG,
“In Greece, they merely identify the Eastern orthodox Church of Christ as the “prevailing religion” of the country. It’s not an official state religion. In Denmark, there is merely the obligation of the state to “support” the church.”
Kindly cite the clause in the SL Constitution where Buddhism is described as the “state religion.”
“But the state should not be involved in promoting Buddhist values—it needs to be religiously neutral.For eg, at national ceremonies, you can’t just have Buddhist rituals.”
What about Hinduism?
“I don’t know of any other secular nation that has a political party like the JHU that is led by monks and where most of the legislators are monks….How did a party like JHU acquire legitimacy in a country which has no state religion according to its Constitution?”
The JHU did not exist prior to 2004 and even by SL Buddhist norms it is an anomaly. It was not welcomed by the traditional Buddhist establishment and even today the parliamentarian monks are considered to be renegades of sorts.
According to the recent election results, JHU’s representation in parliament has dropped to 3 members from 9 elected in 2004. Of the three, one was appointed through the UPFA national list, and I don’t know why 230,000 people voted for the other two (although Gampaha is the same dim-witted district that gave 150,000 votes to Mervyn Silva).
MG
“You can’t have a multicultural, multi-religious nation with one religion singled out as the state religion” – I agree… and
you continue to make the same point which I thought i made clear in my previous post… I am not arguing here to make Buddhism the state religion… All i am saying is other countries give primacy to other religions and therefore I do not have an issue with Buddhism being given primacy.. Get it straight please…. I do not subscribe to Buddhism being a state religion and it is not so in SL….
However, it amazes me at the length you have gone to justify those countries that do have such state religions… what is right is right yesterday, today and tomorrow… For me “Right” and “wrong” is absolute and should stand the test of time… it is a great excuse of these hypocritical countries and their defenders to claim history (claim times were different ) as their excuse for doing what they did in the past but want others not to do in the present… when they continue to reap the benefits of their past actions and in most cases retain in some form…. Times were different then my dear, because it was in their interest for it to be so… now that they do not have those same requirements so they claim it to be wrong as it it is in their interest now to label it wrong… . Who made them the arbiters of what is right and wrong??? . Nonetheless… I repeat I am not a proponent of Buddhism being a state religion… You continue to miss my point!!!
“As for the religion-politics divide, I don’t know of any other secular nation that has a political party like the JHU that is led by monks and where most of the legislators are monks. Is there a Hindu/Christian/Muslim party led by its religious leaders in SL? How did a party like JHU acquire legitimacy in a country which has no state religion according to its Constitution”
I believe in a democracy any one has the right to be in politics… even Buddhist priest.. ( Buddhist priest have a right to be hypocritical too) This has nothing to do with a state religion… Tomorrow Christian priests can form a political party in SL and contest… That is their right.. Just because others have not done it, should not preclude someone else from doing it… Are you saying we should deny Priests of all religions the right to participate in politics and be legislators?? Surely you can’t be serious!!! I do not know of any democratic country which does so!!! On the other hand look at the support the JHU received from the electorate at the last election!!! It is at best minimal 200K+ votes out of nearly 10 Million+… They are bunch of ignorant people in robes who spew discord…the people of SL have shown them up through their vote what they think of them… Racist and bigots are every where but i believe even they have the same rights as everyone else!!
Hello Burning_Issue
Nice to have you back commenting on one of my posts again.. even though you have chosen not to address me directly!!! i hope its not personal!!
“I see people like Diffperspective state that, giving foremost place and state protection to Buddhism in the constitution has no meaning and it does not infringe other religions; basically it is total nonsense! If it has no meaning, one should ask as to why it is there then!” -
“Nonsense” – that is your opinion and you are welcome to it… i see it as a practical non issue… when 70% + of the electorate and the population is Buddhist it becomes inevitable in reality that they have the ability to give their religion primacy….. Therefore if they want a clause in the constitution that gives “primacy” they have the power to do it… I do not object to it as long as my rights to follow and practice my faith is also guaranteed and i am not discriminated against because of my faith… as far as I can see the constitution guarantees that to me!!!!
Your Trincomalee incident –
Yes this happened!!! But how does this affect me practicing my religion or following my faith????? Do you think this type of activity will make people of other religions convert to Buddhism???
“Diffperspective claims that he is not a Buddhist and he sacrificed his highlife in the US to serve his country.” -
Are you insinuating something here???? Yes i am not a Buddhist … That is a fact!!! but don’t get me wrong i did not sacrifice the high life…in USA yes, but i continue to enjoy the high life in Sri Lanka… probably higher now than what I would have in the US today…
I am not that altruistic to give up the high life.. but I made it here in good old SL…
“Moreover, his profession takes him to all over the country including the North and East, and claims that there are no Buddha statues planted! He must have missed some articles appearing on the Groundviews exactly on this point. Why is that, those who wrote articles here saw Buddha statues planted within the N&E after the fall of the LTTE that this gentleman could not see?” -
Yes i missed those articles but…..
I never claimed there are no Buddha statues/temples in the North!!! oh there is.. in Karanodai, Naga Deepa, Killinochi (right in the center of town) and a few other places too…. I saw them all… visited and spoke to people there too .. However, what i have not seen is a “thrust” of Buddhism and a conspiracy to conert by force, Hindus, Muslims and Christians in the North to Buddhism… The same way I have seen Charismatic Christian churches springing up in Homagama, Bandaragama, Hambantota and other predominantly Buddhist areas but not a conspiracy by some Western power to convert all the Buddhist to Christianity as alluded by some… What i see is organized religions doing their number when they see an opportunity… It is amazing how you chaps are acting like the flip side of the present Rajapaksa government which see a conspiracy against them at every turn… You are the same and see a conspiracy at every turn… You are no better than the Government you condemn so much!!
However, since i may have missed some of these “planted” Buddha statues in the North/East .. and you seem to be convinced it is there in big numbers to make it an issue as a big conspiracy against the people of the N/E… Please be a good soul and give me a list of at least 10 such statues and where exactly they are located so that i can go and visit them in my next trip which should be in about two weeks… then i can let you know the both sides of the argument!!!
While i make my opinions after visiting these places talking to both sides you continue to be dependent on second hand and third hand reports… thereby your opinions become someone else’s…but it is interesting how you readily accept views that support your pre conceived notions but question those that do not support them…. Hmm!!!
Burning_ Issue
Please excuse some grammar and spelling mistakes and an extra “the’ in the middle in my post above as I did it in a bit of hurry!!! Tks.
Diffperspective,
Religion is a matter for the individual whatever the Constitution may say. Constitutions come and Constitutions go but religions remain.
Any Government that gives supremacy to one religion over others in a multireligious country is asking for trouble.
Niranjan,
I agree that is the best option… no argument… but if that is not an option still I would not have an issue as long as the rights of other religions are also guaranteed and are not discriminated…. the SL constitution guarantees this.
just because a country has an official religion (now i am not saying SL has) does not make that country intolerant towards other religions. it all depends upon the government and the level of tolerance the citizens of that country have for each other. Some countries with official religions have laws that guarantee the freedom of worship, full liberty of conscience and places of worship for all citizens and implement those laws in society better than countries that do not have an official or established religion.
Diffperspective,
No, I have not missed your point, though you may well have missed it yourself. Could you elaborate how Buddhism will take on “primacy” in Sri Lanka over other religions without it functioning as if it were the state religion itself (though, as we know, the constitution does not announce it as a state religion)?
That is my problem–the wording of the Constitution in SL as it currently stands: “The Republic of Sri Lanka shall give to Buddhism the foremost place and accordingly it shall be the duty of the State to protect and foster the Buddha Sasana, while assuring to all religions the rights granted by Articles 10 and 14(1)(e).”
The duty of the state to foster Buddhist values? When it gets to that extent, doesn’t that make it the state religion in all but name? None of the countries you mentioned say anything about giving a particular religion the “foremost” place, nor fostering Church values. I’m not just quibbling with language–in the Constitution, words are what make promises to the future. They can be misinterpreted/reinterpreted to refer to Buddhism as the state religion.
There is no problem with the people giving the religion primacy in their private lives. But the state giving one religion primacy entails discriminating against other religions. It could mean, for instance, media promotion of Buddhism and its practices, Buddhist ceremonies exclusively at state functions or, as is happening in the north, setting up many Buddhist temples in areas where the majority are of a different faith. That effectively marginalizes other religions and reduces their value in the public eye. That will quite likely result over time in the minority religion becoming less and less of an important aspect of the lives of the people. It could also result in conversion. It is well known that in Malaysia, where importance is given to Islam, many non-Muslims, those from minority communities, convert to the religion for the sake of attaining power and status in society.
The JHU may not have many supporters, but it is in the ruling coalition. That gives it a political power not available to those outside this magic circle.
Priests/imams/monks should not be allowed to run for political office for the simple reason that politics/government is about civil space, about that which is outside the religious, the private. Unless of course it is a Buddhist state, in which case, even governance becomes a spiritual matter. As it is, religious leaders can and do have much power over their communities within religious institutions. It’s a big job just containing their power. Do you want them in parliament, passing laws on how many times a week you have to go to temple? And in Sri Lanka, as in many other countries, religion is also often bound with race.
Unlike people in other types of work who besides being teachers/engineers/businessmen, etc, are also citizens and have other roles in their private life, religious leaders are always that, 24 hours a day. Even as politicians, they cannot take off their religious mantle. There is already a powerful place in society for them. They should stick to that. If a religious leader wants to run for politics, he should quit from his religious position.
Diffperspective,
I feel that when people counter your arguments, you tend to move the goalpost! On record, I say that I am neither anti-Buddhist nor anti-Sinhala; I am simply for a common Sri Lankan identity with equal rights for all citizens. We all know that the bug stops with the constitution; it should be the basis on which the common Sri Lankan identity should be evolved and protected. When the majority acts to safeguard its religion and language with no regard whatsoever about the minorities, then it seriously impediments cohesive nature of the fabric of a multi-ethnic nation. What has been happening in Sri Lanka since the independence is not democracy but majoratarianism.
N.M. Perera, in 1955 during the Language Bill Debate:
“Id democracy is to be treated as an arithmetical concept that whatever majority decides must be accepted that if the majority decides that the majority religion must prevail it must be accepted merely because they have got superiority in numbers, that is not democracy. When you have different religions, the sovereignty of the majority is automatically checked by those inalienable rights that the minorities have which cannot be overwritten by the mere whim and fancy of a majority. The test of a democracy is the morality of the law. It is not merely a counting of heads but whether point of fact is the minorities are given full consideration of their points of view”
Based on N.M’s understanding of democracy, what we see in Sri Lanka is majoratarianism; since you accept that, the 70% of the Sinhala Buddhists can do whatever they want, you can also concur with my assessment!
“i see it as a practical non issue… when 70% + of the electorate and the population is Buddhist it becomes inevitable in reality that they have the ability to give their religion primacy….. Therefore if they want a clause in the constitution that gives “primacy” they have the power to do it… I do not object to it as long as my rights to follow and practice my faith is also guaranteed and i am not discriminated against because of my faith… as far as I can see the constitution guarantees that to me!!!!”
What do you say about the below:
http://www.ihrc.org.uk/activities/alerts/9313-alert-sri-lanka-sri-lankan-muslim-convert-to-be-tried-under-emergency-law-tomorrow
” Perera, 38 years-old, is a Muslim convert who was born in a Buddhist family in Sri Lanka and has been living in Bahrain for many years. She was arrested before leaving Sri Lanka after a three months holiday.
She wrote the books titled “From Darkness to Light” and “Questions and Answers” following her conversion to Islam in 1999 where she described the story of converting from Buddhism to Islam. She was arrested on allegations that writing her book in Sinhalese is insulting to the Buddhist religion”
What law in Sri Lanka that is against one converts to another religion and writes a book about it? Isn’t it the constitution that is being interpreted in terms of protecting Buddhism?
“Yes this happened!!! But how does this affect me practicing my religion or following my faith????? Do you think this type of activity will make people of other religions convert to Buddhism??? “
Your argument is illogical! The statue was placed there overnight with the full support of the security forces in an area where multi-ethnic populace reside. The normal protocol would have been to seek permission from the local authority. This incident has substantiated the reality that, the constitution is supreme and the state machinery is entrusted to protect it notwithstanding the local governance! When lack of ethnic cohesively is prevalent and the majority recklessly persists with that their interests are upheld on the strength of the constitution, then it seriously infringes on the minorities and their perceptions of the majority!
“I never claimed there are no Buddha statues/temples in the North!!! oh there is.. in Karanodai, Naga Deepa, Killinochi (right in the center of town) and a few other places too…. I saw them all… visited and spoke to people there too .. However, what i have not seen is a “thrust” of Buddhism and a conspiracy to conert by force, Hindus, Muslims and Christians in the North to Buddhism…”
What did you exactly claim? No one was commenting about the Buddhists places of worships that already existed within the N&E! In fact, the Tamils never objected to other religions; what people have been pointing out is that, the since the fall of the LTTE, there are several Buddha statues being erected by the SLA on state expenses and this is in keeping with protecting Buddhism as per the constitution.! If you do not understand this point, I have no other way of articulating it!
“What i see is organized religions doing their number when they see an opportunity… It is amazing how you chaps are acting like the flip side of the present Rajapaksa government which see a conspiracy against them at every turn… You are the same and see a conspiracy at every turn… You are no better than the Government you condemn so much!!”
Please do not be condescending; which other religion in Sri Lanka that is being funded by the state? When the Sinhala and Buddhism are inextricably interconnected, the state is arguably protecting the Sinhala Buddhists at the expense of the rest. Do you think that, the Mahasangha rushed to the North & East and planted the Buddha Statues at their own expense? Please your arguments do not make sense!
“While i make my opinions after visiting these places talking to both sides you continue to be dependent on second hand and third hand reports… thereby your opinions become someone else’s…but it is interesting how you readily accept views that support your pre conceived notions but question those that do not support them…. Hmm!!!”
Here you go again! I am afraid your first hand knowledge/opinions do not add up. Did you speak to the Tamils in Sinhala, Tamil or English? Even if you speak to them in Tamil, do you think that they will tell you as to how they really feel? What the Tamils think and want is not a matter for the Sinhala Buddhists; we have been taught that in actions!
Why can’t English be the official language for all civil service transactions? The Sinhalese are never going to learn Tamil, and the Tamils will learn Sinhalese only to advance their career opportunities in the South of SL, else they will stick to the North or else simply migrate. At least in the old days, one had to be well-educated to get a government job, for which one prerequisite was a firm grasp of English, but how many of today’s jokers are even moderately fluent, e.g. Wimal/Mervyn/JHU monks?
English need not be adapted to suit the whims and fancies of the West. It serves as a very, very good means by which to defuse racial tensions between Sinhalese and Tamils. Look at Singapore – this is how you level the playing field.
Ha..ha..haa
It is believed among the Buddhists that “Satharawaram ” deities protect the Buddhism in Sri Lanka! Fact or myth I wouldn’t embark on…..b..u..t at certain times it seems to be holding a lot of water!
example1:
Just as the USA and the West were trying to trample Sri Lanka through the UN on war crimes the http://www.wikileaks.com did something to pull down the “amude” of Obama and he is running naked now!
example2:
Canada, the compassionate benefactor of all immigrants(legal or otherwise) is truely in a dilemma now as more and more Tiger ships start to head towards this land of “compassion”.Their compassion has turned into fear now! They didn’t feel that fear when they were preaching us to stop the war!
Burning_Issue,
You’ve hit on something that is very relevant to the SL situation, the misinterpretation of democracy as majoirtarianism. Democracy is the sole political system that protects minority rights. It does not understand equal rights as being PROPORTIONATE to the numbers of a community, ie the existence of a 75 percent majority does not mean that they should have access to 75 percent of cultural/social/political power. In democracy, everyone has full access to rights. So, when a Sinhalese and a Tamil apply for an available civil service position with exactly the same job and training qualifications, there should be a 50% chance for either of them to get it (if there are only 2 applicants for the job). That is why the quota system is not democratic cos it means that the Tamil person in this case would have only 14% chance of getting the job (according to existing demographic stats) whereas the Sinhalese applicant would have 73.8 % chance of bagging the job.
The government should also take on the responsibility of assuring that every community has equal access to jobs/education, etc. For eg, if it is found that under a meritocratic system, Tamils are getting more places at university (that is way above their 14% of the population) and Sinhalese are getting well under their 73.8% of places, then the government has to take some form of affirmative and other forms of helping action to help the Sinhalese to compete fairly. These actions must stop as soon as the Sinhalese get close to 73.8 % of the places at the uni based on their merit alone (not on an arbitrarily imposed quota system).
MG,
Could you elaborate how Buddhism will take on “primacy” in Sri Lanka over other religions without it functioning as if it were the state religion itself (though, as we know, the constitution does not announce it as a state religion)? –
The answer to that is in my first post which i thought was clear- “Though Buddhism is given primacy of position it does not infringe on the rights of other religions… Please refer the SL Constitution Articles 10 and 14 (c) and (e) which specifically safeguards the rights of other religions… many countries have such state (official) religions and this is not uncommon and is given primacy of position”
to elaborate on the above… it is no different than in England where the head of the church is the queen, where even today senior church appointments are made on the advice of the PM on the recommendation of the church but the PM having the power of veto, like in Norway where the Evangelical Lutheran Church is administered through a Govt dept. and the state supports the religious aid organizations and the king who is the executive bound to Uphold and protect and where half of the legislature has to be of the religion, etc.. in Finland where the state even collects taxes for the church and the President deciding the themes of the intercession days and in Denmark and Iceland where the State is bound by the constitution to support and protect the Church…. and you defend these systems in these countries and do not seem to have a problem with them!!! That was my point!!!
“None of the countries you mentioned say anything about giving a particular religion the “foremost” place, nor fostering Church values” -.
I will not quibble with semantics.. but in reality and their actions all these states are promoting one religion, with Iceland, Denmark and Norway. through the constitution.
“Priests/imams/monks should not be allowed to run for political office” -
You have given your reasons.. but can you tell me one democratic country which through the constitution or by law prohibits this please… One needs to be realistic and have one standard!!
Burning_Issue
“I feel that when people counter your arguments, you tend to move the goalpost!” –
Sorry you feel that way… Though not sure what you are referring to!!!
” I am simply for a common Sri Lankan identity with equal rights for all citizens.” – So am I but i believe in accepting reality and picking my fights… as i have said before — “just because a country has an official religion (now i am not saying SL has) does not make that country intolerant towards other religions. it all depends upon the government and the level of tolerance the citizens of that country have for each other. Some countries with official religions have laws that guarantee the freedom of worship, full liberty of conscience and places of worship for all citizens and implement those laws in society better than countries that do not have an official or established religion” I believe the SL constitution guarantees me this right and have been .
“When the majority acts to safeguard its religion and language with no regard whatsoever about the minorities, then it seriously impediments cohesive nature of the fabric of a multi-ethnic nation” – I agree with the concept but disagree with regard to SL… i do not see them doing this with “no regard whatsoever” to other religions… … I am from a minority faith and i do not feel discriminated or have any problem practicing my faith…
” Perera, 38 years-old, is a Muslim convert” – i agree this is a travesty of justice.. the difference is i blame the over zealous courier company employee and the police rather than the constitution for this… Yes it probably came about because of the constitution clause but i do not believe in blaming the constitution just because some one misuses it!! Its like blaming the car when a person misuses it and runs over another person!!!
“What did you exactly claim? No one was commenting about the Buddhists places of worships that already existed within the N&E! In fact, the Tamils never objected to other religions;” – Point taken!!!
“there are several Buddha statues being erected by the SLA on state expenses and this is in keeping with protecting Buddhism as per the constitution.” -
I have not seen these… are you talking of the ones that the army has inside their camps?? If it is that I do not see an issue but if it is outside then since the N/E is about 18,000 sq Km, i may well have missed them… But if its an invasion of the proportions you claim there should be a considerable number of these around to cover the 18,000 Sq KM’s. Not just one or two!! Please give me a list of at least 10 such “plants”??? Any one can claim anything by misrepresenting or exgarating but substantiating it is another matter.
“Please do not be condescending; which other religion in Sri Lanka that is being funded by the state? ” -
I am not being condescending.. i call it as i see it… please cite the reference where it establishes that the Govt. is funding Buddhism! in SL.
“Here you go again! I am afraid your first hand knowledge/opinions do not add up”
I guess it does not because it is contrary to your preconceived notions.
“Even if you speak to them in Tamil, do you think that they will tell you as to how they really feel? What the Tamils think and want is not a matter for the Sinhala Buddhists; we have been taught that in actions!” -
That is an interesting statement and sums up your mind set because you are under the illusion that I am a “Sinhala Buddhist”… however much i say no.. This is your preconceived notions at work , which does not allow you to move away from what you want to believe.. You probably cannot comprehend a non Sinhala Buddhist in SL is taking a position such as what I have taken and claim SL not to be as bad as what you want it portrayed!!!..
Diffperspective:
it is no different than in England where the head of the church is the queen, where even today senior church appointments are made on the advice of the PM on the recommendation of the church but the PM having the power of veto, like in Norway where the Evangelical Lutheran Church is administered through a Govt dept….
Au contraire, it is very different. In S. Lanka, Buddhist monks sit on the road and stage fasts to oppose the presence of the UN… Buddhist monks forced Bandaranaike to tear up his pact with the Tamils in ’56… a Buddhist monk eventually assassinated Banda since he (Banda) was losing his *nationalist* touch. Buddhist monks ran through the streets in 83′, and Buddhist monks consulted with every President since the war began, seeking their assurance that the “territorial integrity of the island would be safeguarded.” You simply cannot deny that the Maha Sangha is a very potent force in S. Lanka. The Christian Church in the West has no such power; certainly, they had such power several hundred years ago, but that is irrelevant. We are talking about Buddhist monks in 2010 who sit outside the UN compound… I could go on and on, but the point is clear. S. Lanka desperately needs to kick the monks (Sangha) out of politics. Politics is a dirty business almost anywhere, particularly in 3rd world developing nations and monks simply have no place in it. The Constitution needs to explicitly state this fact.
Diffperspective,
Are you saying that the Sri Lankan state, like these other European states, merely takes care of administrative matters for the religion, collects taxes, makes appointments on the recommendation of the religious establishment itself? Please note that the SL Constitution says that it is the “duty of the State to protect and foster the Buddha Sasana”. That goes far beyond administration. None of the European states that you mentioned have any connection to spiritual matters, and certainly this is not even mentioned in their Constitution.
Rajapaksa, soon after the end of the war, spoke about governing in accordance with Buddhist principles. Isn’t he politicising religion? Isn’t he suggesting that SL is a Buddhist state? What does this mean for Muslim, Hindu and Christian people in government–do they have to govern according to the principles of a religion alien to them?
I have already explained why it’s acceptable for European countries to have official religions—religion was an important part of the history in which these nations were carved out in Europe and came into existence. But these countries have since developed strong traditions regarding separation of the Church and State. They don’t have political parties based on religions or led by religious leaders (unlike Sri Lanka). Man have also changed their laws in trying to ensure greater separation of State and Church, for eg, Finland.
You wanted an example of countries where religious leaders are barred from politics. Denmark is one. Ecuador’s church law also forbids priests from running for political office. The Vatican forbids its priests from political office. Peter Hollingworth in Australia had to give up his position as Archbishop of Brisbane to take up political office.
Prof. Heshan,
“Why can’t English be the official language for all civil service transactions?”
Because only a small part of either Sinhala or Tamil communities know English. You might as well suggest Hindi as the official language.
Diffperspective,
“I will not quibble with semantics.. but in reality and their actions all these states are promoting one religion, with Iceland, Denmark and Norway. through the constitution.”
When you get to a point where you regard the Constitution as just “semantics”, that is very dangerous indeed! In reality and in their actions, the European nations are constantly working at preventing the Church from intruding on State power. They have made several Constitutional amendments from the 19th century onwards to that effect. These nations emerged out of the Protestant Reformation, and its chief theorist, Martin Luther, stood for separation of the civil and eccelesiastical spheres (“Doctrine of the Two Kingdoms). He said that the State had no business legislating matters that concerned people’s faith and spirituality. The Reformation led to Enlightenment philosophy, often seen as the marker of modernity, with secularism as an important aspect of it, where civil matters are to be decided based on evidence and fact unconnected to religious influence.
This is obviously all very different from what is happening with regard to Buddhism in Sri Lanka. The First Lady carrying a Buddha statue up to the north—isn’t she behaving as if she was the grand priestess of Buddhism? Who made her a religious leader? And you are very conveniently forgetting the connection in SL where religion stands for race, where making one religion a state religion or giving it power to influence governance is about asserting primacy over ethnic minorities. This race element was missing in Europe when they set up their national churches, and they have their secularism provisions to protect new immigrants against discrimination.
Heshan,
You are a “hoot” and thank you for the laughs!!!
So now we are in to taking away the civil rights of those forces that we don’t like and do not agree with and we think are a “potent” force???
Yes and in the “West” as you call it… the “Christian Right”, ” The Moral Majority” etc.. whose leaders are mostly Priests have no political power and Presidents and political leaders never consulted with Priests like Billy Graham, Jerry Fallwel and others…
Hmm!!! Interesting!!!!
MG
“merely takes care of administrative matters for the religion, collects taxes, makes appointments on the recommendation of the religious establishment itself?” -
what you choose to see as “merely administrative matters” i see as protecting and furthering the religion… You choose to emphasize the semantics I’d rather look at the totality of actions and their intended purpose!!! So if we claim by stating “duty of the State to protect and foster the Buddha Sasana” is futhering Budhism by the State…. then by saying… “The Evangelical Lutheran Church shall be the Established Church of Denmark, and, as such, it shall be supported by the State” and in Norway ” The Evangelical-Lutheran religion shall remain the official religion of the State. The inhabitants professing it are bound to bring up their children in the same and Article 4 [Religion of the King]
The King shall at all times profess the Evangelical-Lutheran religion, and uphold and protect the same…. and the actions these Govts. take on behalf of the religion… is also furtherance of the religion. At least the way I see it… You are welcome to call it “mere administrative matters” ..
None of the European states that you mentioned have any connection to spiritual matters, and certainly this is not even mentioned in their Constitution. –
Section 4 (State Church)
“The Evangelical Lutheran Church shall be the Established Church of Denmark, and, as such, it shall be supported by the State” – is this not demanding the Govt to support spiritual, matters?? Surely even you can see that???
“Rajapaksa, soon after the end of the war, spoke about governing in accordance with Buddhist principles. Isn’t he politicising religion? Isn’t he suggesting that SL is a Buddhist state?” -
Don’t confuse the two….. Rajapakse is not Sri Lanka… he is only a politician who is president for another few years and will be history after that.. He will say what he wants to get elected like all politicians However…Sri Lanka will continue in perpetuity… When GWB claimed “I believe that God wants me to be president.” or “May He guide us now. And may God continue to bless the United States of America” . did you think USA was turning from Secular to Christianity and when Obama said in his inaugural speech “We remain a young nation, but in the words of Scripture, the time has come to set aside childish things” – Referring to 1 Corrinthians Ch 13:11 he was politicizing religion and when in general Presidents and Political leaders talk about Christian values in the US.. they are politicising religion??? If the answer is yes to those … then my answer to you is also yes!!! But if the answer to those are no… so is mine to you!!!
“You wanted an example of countries where religious leaders are barred from politics. Denmark is one. Ecuador’s church law also forbids priests from running for political office. The Vatican forbids its priests from political office. Peter Hollingworth in Australia had to give up his position as Archbishop of Brisbane to take up political office” -
Denmark – Please cite the reference as I do not see it so in their Constitution…. Ecuador – I take your word but honestly, is Ecuador the country you want SL to emulate??
Vatican – That’s a good one… What is the Pope then?? I always thought he was a Head of State and the country he was HoS was the Vatican!!! Hmmm!!
Peter Hollingworth – obviously because he cannot do two jobs.. but did he give up being a Priest??? I think not!!!
I think we are just running around in Circles here… You seem to be hell bent on your point of view and so i am it seems… As such i do not think either of us are going to convince each other… Please respond if you feel the need to do so.. but I do not think I will waste any more time on this.
Ciao… it was enjoyable!!
Heshan
it should read… “its a hoot” Sorry !!
Diffperspective:
It’s funny how you pick on Norway, of all countries.
“The Evangelical Lutheran Church shall be the Established Church of Denmark, and, as such, it shall be supported by the State” and in Norway ”
Norway has the highest standard of living.
Norway’s gross national product per person amounted to USD 36,600, beaten only by Luxembourg. Its men and women are expected to live to an age of 78.9 years and Norway is one of 19 countries in the world with no measurable rates of illiteracy.
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article828724.ece
What is the standard of living in SL? Well, we can see it pretty easily when members of Parliament go on fasts outside the UN compound to protest war crimes investigations!
I said:
” I am simply for a common Sri Lankan identity with equal rights for all citizens.”
You said:
“So am I but i believe in accepting reality and picking my fights… as i have said before”
Yes, I am also prepared to accept the reality; we can at least agree on that front; now let me outline my thought but not restricted to:
1. Sri Lanka practiced majoritaniarism since 1948 and not democracy
2. The Sinhala Buddhists governments employed discriminatory policies at the expense of the minorities.
3. It has used its 70% superiority to elevate its religion and language in a multi-ethnic country that was brought together by colonialist rule.
4. It has put emphasis on the Sinhala Buddhist identity than on a common Sri Lankan identity thus rendering the minorities as sub-ordinates.
You accepted that the 70% Sinhala Buddhist can do whatever they want; where is your fight on this? In fact, how do you intend to fight and what aspects that you would fight against, since you do not seem to have any issues with the status-quo? It is nonsensical to compare Sri Lanka with other nations in the west, which evolved since medieval time through religious bickering and turmoil as sovereign nations. Now, when such nations become multi-cultural and through process of strengthening democracy, all are secular in practice but retain some symbolic norms! We on the other hand, started as a secular model nation; looked upon as an example to all post-colonial nations; managed to drive ourselves into majoritatrian based intolerant nation!
You said:
“just because a country has an official religion (now i am not saying SL has) does not make that country intolerant towards other religions. it all depends upon the government and the level of tolerance the citizens of that country have for each other. Some countries with official religions have laws that guarantee the freedom of worship, full liberty of conscience and places of worship for all citizens and implement those laws in society better than countries that do not have an official or established religion” I believe the SL constitution guarantees me this right and have been .”
So, there is no need for you to fight for anything on this, right? The 1948 constitution was accepted by all as the basis for building a just nation; it was based on secularism and equality. The country has moved backwards since and not forward! Tomorrow I may want to convert to Buddhism, to Islam, or to Christianity. I may think that I want tell my story to the people of Sri Lanka by publishing a book in three languages: English, Sinhala, and Tamil. The problem is that, I will be violating the constitution that is designed to uphold and foster Buddhism! Why don’t you recognise this injustice and impracticable medieval provision in a country like Sri Lanka, which has had 95% literacy rate? Of course, I will have no problems in Sri Lanka, if I speak Sonhala and do nothing to upset the Buddhist Chauvinists. Is this the nation that you are envisioning?
I said:
“When the majority acts to safeguard its religion and language with no regard whatsoever about the minorities, then it seriously impediments cohesive nature of the fabric of a multi-ethnic nation”
You said:
“ I agree with the concept but disagree with regard to SL… i do not see them doing this with “no regard whatsoever” to other religions… … I am from a minority faith and i do not feel discriminated or have any problem practicing my faith…”
I have given you examples; I think that the existence of the LTTE had put a lid on the Sinhala Buddhist Chauvinism for greater extent during the last 30 years. It now has a free hand; unless there is an unambiguous constitution with adequate statute to counter this, I am afraid, it will manifest in various situations! A country is a secular one or not, there are no two ways about it; one cannot fudge this issue with a few words added to the constitution in order to satisfy minorities!
You said:
“i agree this is a travesty of justice.. the difference is i blame the over zealous courier company employee and the police rather than the constitution for this…”
If that is the case, why is she still in custody?
You said:
“Yes it probably came about because of the constitution clause but i do not believe in blaming the constitution just because some one misuses it!! Its like blaming the car when a person misuses it and runs over another person!!!”
How can one misuse the constitution? How long does it take the authorities to deem that they misinterpreted the constitution? I am afraid that, the car has manufacturing defects that facilitates misuse!
I said:
“there are several Buddha statues being erected by the SLA on state expenses and this is in keeping with protecting Buddhism as per the constitution.”
You said:
“I have not seen these… are you talking of the ones that the army has inside their camps?? If it is that I do not see an issue but if it is outside then since the N/E is about 18,000 sq Km, i may well have missed them… But if its an invasion of the proportions you claim there should be a considerable number of these around to cover the 18,000 Sq KM’s. Not just one or two!! Please give me a list of at least 10 such “plants”??? Any one can claim anything by misrepresenting or exgarating but substantiating it is another matter.”
Why do you want 10? The victors of the war even planting one Buddha statue will send a signal to the Tamil speaking people of attempting subjugation. I say on this forum that, planting Buddha statues are funded by the state; you need to prove me wrong! I will be visiting the north soon; I will see them for myself soon!
I said:
“Even if you speak to them in Tamil, do you think that they will tell you as to how they really feel? What the Tamils think and want is not a matter for the Sinhala Buddhists; we have been taught that in actions!”
You said:
“That is an interesting statement and sums up your mind set because you are under the illusion that I am a “Sinhala Buddhist”… however much i say no.. This is your preconceived notions at work , which does not allow you to move away from what you want to believe.. You probably cannot comprehend a non Sinhala Buddhist in SL is taking a position such as what I have taken and claim SL not to be as bad as what you want it portrayed!!!..”
It does not matter whoever you are; do you think that the Tamils will tell you as to how they feel? There voices have been silenced; they appear beaten and subjugated!
Nevertheless, I do accept the point about accepting the reality; but, only as a basis for standing up for justice; not accepting the reality as norms! This is why I participate on these forums; I am hoping to build consensus among all.
diffperspective
Your logic is like a sweet drop of nectar to a starved swarm of ants!
The fairness of any logic depends on the tint of the glasses you are wearing! Especially true of some people like Heshan,who I tried replying to,but for some reason only known to the “freedom of expression”policy of “Groundviews” crew my comment was never allowed in-what I mean is I couldn’t post is in spite of repeated attempts! May be that’s the kind of tolerence they have for dissent! Thank you Groundviews!
Heshan,I won’t be suprised if you call Buddha, Jusus and Prophet Mohammad-be peace on him!-”jokers” because they didn’t speak English. You seem to be suffering from “Anglophilic necrosis” of brain;a potentially fatal disease!
It’s a Buddhist monk who pulled down sudda’s flag before the signing of the Kandyan convention-Wariyapola Sumangala-;it’s also a Buddhist monk who joined hands with the leadership of the Mathale uprising in 1848-Kakahapola unnanse-and these are our national heros and we are proud of them;yet if Buddha was alive today he would never have condoned their actions!
The bottom line is there is a tradition in Sri Lanka that gives the Buddhist monks the previlege to protect the country when threatened.That has been the tradition since the King took the blessings of the Buddhist monks to wage war against Elara’s invading army. Only the people who suffer from the above mentioned disease who are as rootless as the dodderers to the Sinhalese psyche could utter the type of queries as Heshan is capable of.
Heshan
By the way the reason for “Banda’s” assasination was not what you think.It’s rather the other war around.Please read Bandarnaika Assasination. There have been rogue priests and rogue monks in tne history. Even His Holyness Pope Benedict xvi is embroiled in an unprecidented controversy for defending and shielding rogue priests
longus,
In regards to English, it is the language of business and commerce, as well as the language of science and technology. For individuals who wish to pursue these fields, the inability to speak English is therefore a great handicap. The inability to speak proper English is also a handicap. A trilingual educational curriculum – Sinhalese/English/Tamil – is an expensive proposition. It is much better to stick to a single language in the schools, as that would be the most efficient way to maximize limited resources. As I have said, that language should be English because that is the language that offers the most career opportunities to young people, not just in SL, but in the global marketplace as well. As far as the civil service is concerned, the ability to speak good English should be a definite prerequisite for employment. Such a prerequisite would keep most of today’s jokers out – e.g. Wimal/Mervyn/Champika etc. Can you see a pattern? None of them can speak any English, period. Also, if English were the language of the civil service, it would level the playing field, whereby Tamils and Muslims would have one less barrier to face, when it came to occupying high positions of power.
Regarding the monks, it is one thing to advise a king during the 18th century, and another thing to advise a 21st century President. What qualifications does a monk of today possibly possess that entitles him to enter politics? Does he have a knowledge of economics? Of global relations? Has he studied political science, to know enough about how political systems work? Does he know about the law, beyond the mere basics? Does he even know how to use a computer to send an e-mail to his colleagues? Does he have experience with the military, whereby he can take up issues related to defense? Last time I checked, these subjects were not taught to monks! So why are they in politics, to begin with? Obviously, they are being used as tools by political parties (even the UNP) to get the sympathy votes of the people.. the point being that this kind of exploitation does not serve any useful purpose… politics is a difficult business, when you involve unqualified people like the monks, whatever difficulties that may arise only become compounded. . At the end of the day, it is not about respect, it is about efficiency – that is really what matters in politics. Look at the economic indicators, etc – all of them are based on measures of efficiency.
Burning_Issue
I think it is time to put this matter to rest as i get the feeling we are just going round and round the mulberry bush… So let me just recap and thereafter be silent… You are welcome to rebut!
You view is that all post independent Govt’s of SL have been devoid of any redeeming qualities and have been evil, existing only to employ discriminatory policies at the expense of the minorities and to emphasize Buddhism to the exclusion of others… While i accept that, wrongs have been committed in the past some very grievous and may even today, it is not some large conspiracy … some of these wrongs have been rectified already over time and genuine attempts to rectify these have been also been made… Therefore, my view of SL is very different to yours. I see SL and their Govts fallible but not evil!! You see everything that is happening here through this “evil” prism, hence your stand!!!
If as you say –”Sri Lanka practiced majoritaniarism since 1948 and not democracy” –
Then by the same standard The US has practiced Majoritaniarism for nearly 200 years until they passed the Civil Rights Act in1964…and even beyond one can argue.. by the same standard Australia has practiced Majoritaniarism Vis a viz their treatment of the Aboriginees untll even as late as the the 70′s.. and Canada has practiced Majoritaniarism for nearly 100 years until their passage of the Bill of Rights in 1960 where previously Jews, Canadians of Japanese, origin, Native Americans etc were discriminated against…. and todays France with their Burkha ban, and today’s Switzerland with their Minaret ban… and these are the countries touted as the beacons of democracy!!! I do not think this is so!! However, if you are right then all countries practice or did practice Majoritaniarism in their early years and some even today and maybe this is a common phenomena in their growth in to mature democracies!!! I think you theory of Majoritaniarism is.. in your words “nonsense” .
I say on this forum that, planting Buddha statues are funded by the state; you need to prove me wrong! -
Don’t be ridiculous…how does one prove a negative??? it is an impossibility!! However, if you say it does.. show us the facts… Its easy for anyone to make unsubstantiated claims knowing very well that it is impossible to prove a negative!!! Really, how can you prove something never happened??? So in your book… one is guilty till proven innocent!!! Good Lord what double standards??
“It does not matter whoever you are; do you think that the Tamils will tell you as to how they feel? There voices have been silenced; they appear beaten and subjugated!” -
Certainly the Tamils who supported the LTTE appear to be beaten and subjugated…. and contrary to your illusion they too talk to me….. but the others including the Muslim people have a different view… but your arrogance to assume without even knowing the relationship i have with them, that they do not tell me how they feel is both insulting to me and to those people. So in your opinion Tamils speak openly only to Tamils… what a joke??? And you think you can build consensus??? Good Luck but with that attitude.. I have not much hope!!!!
Diffpersepective,
“I think we are just running around in Circles here”
That’s right, and that’s because you’re deliberately taking the argument around in circles, repeating your selected European countries’ constitution ad nauseum when others have already pointed to constitutional amendments in these countries, to the historical context, and also to these countries’ firm commitment to secularism, and how that emphasis on church-state separation was an important part of the Protestant Reformation. These countries you mention are constitutional monarchies, where the king/queen is only a figurehead, a symbol with no power. The fact that the monarch is entrusted with the religion only goes to show how unimportant the religion is to the state and to governance.
As you have said, you don’t want to engage in semantics. Well, words happen to be the crux of argument. “I’d rather look at the totality of actions and their intended purpose!!!”, you say. Good luck with that because everyone will perceive the totality of actions differently and nobody can say what is the “intended purpose” of anything anybody says except in terms of the action it brings forth. If you want to opt out of an argument because you don’t know how to take it forward, just say so.
None of the examples you gave of political leaders in USA and religion talk about a decision to adopt a religious direction in policy-making as Rajapaksa does, i.e. of using the principles of a specific religion to govern. GWB stated a personal belief of his: “I believe” that God wants me to me president. He also merely invokes a “God”, not a Christian God. People can interpret that in accordance with their own belief. To hope for a transcendental power to guide a country is not the same as saying that governance will be according to its principles. As for “the time has come to set aside childish things”—what’s religious in that? Obama also happens to frequently quote from literature and also from non-Christian scriptures. Obama had televised talks with one Christian Evangelist leader, but then he also addressed Jewish associations and the NAACP. He wasn’t bringing religion into politics but addressing various constituences of voters.
Rajapaksa does not stand for the country? I’d like to hear you say that to him and to all those who voted for him! Who makes the day to day decisions that determine the civil life of Sri Lankans? You?
Why do you assume that Sri Lanka will exist forever? It only came into existence in the 1940s—there was no nation called Sri Lanka before that, though there was an island called “Lanka”. So, maybe 100 years from now, there may be no nation called Sri Lanka, after all. Who knows?
You wanted a reference for religious leaders being barred from politics in Denmark:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_National_Church
“Ecuador – I take your word but honestly, is Ecuador the country you want SL to emulate??”
At least it’s not as screwed up as Sri Lanka.
Diffperspective,
“Certainly the Tamils who supported the LTTE appear to be beaten and subjugated…. and contrary to your illusion they too talk to me….. but the others including the Muslim people have a different view… but your arrogance to assume without even knowing the relationship i have with them, that they do not tell me how they feel is both insulting to me and to those people. So in your opinion Tamils speak openly only to Tamils… what a joke??? And you think you can build consensus??? Good Luck but with that attitude.. I have not much hope!!!!”
Yes, going around in circles will achieve nothing. However, I would like to start on this point; almost all Tamils, whether they supported a separate state or not, had no choice but hope that the LTTE was not fully destroyed. This is to do with not out of love for the LTTE but out of fear for their security. At present, they are ambivalent as to how things will pan out. The North is fully under the grip of the military; the EPDP armed gang is terrorising the ordinary people. They do not even talk politics to their neighbours let alone to a stranger! My brother, very recently has been to Jaffna; the people with whom we grew up with would not open their mouth about the goings on; this is the basis of me saying what I said. If you think that the Tamils of Jaffna openly talk about their perceptions, you are very naive indeed!
If you detect arrogance in my posts, then it is the reciprocation to your posts; please re-read what you write before commenting about other peoples’ arrogance! Yes, there are many on these forums, from all communities, who subscribe to a Secular Sri Lanka. We have had this discussion many a times; I am not expecting that it will happen tomorrow, but it will happen at some point.
“You view is that all post independent Govt’s of SL have been devoid of any redeeming qualities and have been evil, existing only to employ discriminatory policies at the expense of the minorities and to emphasize Buddhism to the exclusion of others… While i accept that, wrongs have been committed in the past some very grievous and may even today, it is not some large conspiracy”
My point has been that, after a 30 year war with the Tamil militants; following of course from two insurrections from the Sinhala youth; in the face of over 160,000 to 200,000 people perished on all sides; it is about time that we look at what should be done to bring about harmony. What better way than galvanising all under a common Sri Lankan identity than trying to maintain the status-qua as if to say that the past is immaterial! Everyone; all communities must compromise and come together in harmony; the state should create a platform on which this can materialise. I strongly feel that secularism is fundamental to this quest; equality is one of the pillars of that foundation.
“If as you say –”Sri Lanka practiced majoritaniarism since 1948 and not democracy”
Then by the same standard The US has practiced Majoritaniarism for nearly 200 years until they passed the Civil Rights Act in1964…and even beyond one can argue.. by the same standard Australia has practiced Majoritaniarism Vis a viz their treatment of the Aboriginees untll even as late as the the 70′s.. and Canada has practiced Majoritaniarism for nearly 100 years until their passage of the Bill of Rights in 1960…….”
I totally reject your above arguments. I do not disagree with your claims that many countries openly practiced discrimination; however, this is irrelevant to the Sri Lankan context. In Sri Lanka, both Sinhala and Tamils coexisted, the Muslims later, for many millennia; the Tamils had their own kingdom for over a half a millennium; not to mention the assimilation processes on both sides. Moreover, until 1838 the North & East were separate territory and had no social connection with the rest of the territories. In this context, comparing Sri Lanka with the countries mentioned by you is purely and simply illogical and specious!
“Don’t be ridiculous…how does one prove a negative??? it is an impossibility!! However, if you say it does.. show us the facts…”
Why is it ridiculous? If the state has not been funding, then another body/individual should have been funding the erection of Buddha statues. You can publish on this forum the funding source/s; there is nothing impossible about it at all!
Hi Burning_Issue,
I left you a response on the Moving away from democracy thread.
“The 1948 constitution was accepted by all as the basis for building a just nation;”
Actually it was designed by the British and put into place without anyone’s input. I’m not surprised that few people in 1972 were attached to it that they put up a strenuous defence on its behalf.
“I think that the existence of the LTTE had put a lid on the Sinhala Buddhist Chauvinism for greater extent during the last 30 years.”
You are dreadfully wrong, and you are not helping your cause at all by trying to attribute good things to the LTTE while pointing out only the negative aspects of the current regime.
If anything, the LTTE helped revive Sinhala nationalism which was fading in the early 1980s as the public was becoming increasingly disenchanted with the govt. JRJ was hoping to scapegoat the Tamils for his failure, and to his great fortune the LTTE killed 13 soldiers in 1983.
The JHU- the very embodiment of everything wrong with the Sinhala Buddhist ethos- appeared in 2004 in response to the govt’s appeasement of LTTE terrorism. Mahinda later won the 2005 election on a Sinhala nationalist platform largely because the non-nationalists had lost credibility (and also because the LTTE prevented Tamils from voting).
Dear longus,
“The bottom line is there is a tradition in Sri Lanka that gives the Buddhist monks the previlege to protect the country when threatened.”
That may be true but it then begs the question whether the current “patriotic” monks are protecting the country or undermining it through idiotic posturing and lack of vision.
I would be personally insulted if you compared hamudurus like Sumangala or Gunananda Theros to modern clowns like Omalpe Sobhitha or Athuraliye Ratana who have made us a laughingstock and made “Sinhala Buddhist” synonymous with genocidal racist. These “patriotic” monks are no different than Devadatta who committed all sorts of misdeeds in the name of his interpretation of the Dhamma (and his own personal ambition).
Fortunately it seems that the JHU is dying out and the current MPs hold their position only by bootlicking King Mahinda.
Dear MG,
You have not addressed my rebuttal of your points on July 25.
“Obama had televised talks with one Christian Evangelist leader, but then he also addressed Jewish associations and the NAACP. He wasn’t bringing religion into politics but addressing various constituences of voters.”
Once again for your reading pleasure, here is Mahinda also addressing “various constituencies”:
http://www.thesundayleader.lk/2010/07/23/president-receives-hindu-adi-vel-procession/
Wijayapala,
I addressed some of your questions in posts to other forummers, and didn’t see the need to repeat myself. And others had mischievous intent, which I couldn’t be bothered to pursue. The occasional tokenistic featuring of Hindu rites at state functions take on a particularly malevolent meaning when it is contextualised with on-going suppression of Tamil rights and alleged war crimes against Tamil civilians (questions about which have not been answered).
The question demanding which part of the Constitution describes Buddhism as the state religion was redundant, considering that I had previously said that it was nowhere in the Constitution.
‘Once again for your reading pleasure, here is Mahinda also addressing “various constituencies”:’
Did he also say that he was going to govern in accordance with Hindu principles? Because if he didn’t, I don’t know how this is relevant to my argument about the place Rajapaksa accords to Buddhism in governance.
Hi MG,
“Did he also say that he was going to govern in accordance with Hindu principles?”
As I recall, Obama did not say that he was going to govern in accordance with Jewish principles.
Wijayapala
I too think what you say is true regarding the JHU monks, but what I highlighted was not the qualitative aspect of the Buddhist monk.I wanted to say it’s the same concept that runs through the Sinhalese psyche from the time of king Duttagamini to the present time.Maybe you can’t compare the great monks of yesteryear to the ones who are protesting now,but their motive is the same.
Heshan
I dont think the fluency in English has anything to do with a person’s intelligence or his usefulness to the society. You can gain knowledge by knowing English,but it doesn’t mean a person who knows English is knowledgable as well and you may fit to be a prime example!
Wijayapala,
“As I recall, Obama did not say that he was going to govern in accordance with Jewish principles.”
That’s exactly my point! Obama did meet with religious constituencies, but he did not say anything about governing in accordance with religious principles. As such he stayed within the secular government sphere. Whereas Rajapaksa did say that about governing in accordance with Buddhist principles–and that clearly crosses the line with regard to secular governance. Of course, he did not say he would govern in accordance with Hindu principles. Which means he’s not only transgressing secular governance, but is not being equal either.