Lashkar-e-Taiba in Sri Lanka?
This is in response to a news item titled “US says Lashkar in Lanka” published in the Daily Mirror on 27 march 2010.
Citing a PTI report Admiral Robert Willard, Commander of the US Pacific Command in his testimony before the US Senate Armed Services Committee, has said, in response to a question from Senator George Lemieux, that the Lashkar-e-Taiba group is expanding and specifically positioning itself in Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and the Maldives. He has also said that “we have certainly knowledge of their influence within the region beyond the countries that I just mentioned. The extent of that influence is what we’re taking under study”.
The Sri Lanka government rejected these reports saying there was no evidence to prove that the group was in the island. Therefore, it is extremely important that the US provide details about this alleged LeT influence in Sri Lanka in view of the serious Implications of this disclosure to Sri Lankan Muslims.
That is, assuming Admiral Willard is speaking the truth.
It is worthy to note that Muslims in Sri Lanka, as rightly pointed out by the island’s former Chief Justice Sarath N Silva, remain the only community which never took to arms to realize their grievances even at the peak of their sufferings during the ethnic war when they were evicted from their homes, their lands grabbed, their livelihoods deprived, kidnapped, tortured and indiscriminately killed. This alone would have been cause enough for any group to take to arms. However Muslims refrained from succumbing to violence. There were, however, a few Muslims who acquired weapons to defend themselves against the LTTE atrocities, but they disappeared even before LTTE disappeared. After the elimination of the LTTE the remaining few armed Muslims handed over their weapons to the authorities. The question is why the Muslims should take to arms now under LeT or any other banner?
I submit that Admiral Willard’s statement must be taken with a pinch of salt. For example, within days after the 9/11 events in New York in 2001, former US President George Bush together with former British Prime Minister Tony Blair of the United Kingdom accused Al Qaeda of destroying the World Trade Centre without any proper inquiry. Exploiting the mood in its wake Bush blackmailed a shocked and confused world, created a coalition and invaded within 27 days the war battered and impoverished Afghanistan where he slaughtered innocent and poverty stricken Afghans in one of the most barbarous military ventures of its kind in modern history.
More importantly, Admiral Willard’s submission must be viewed in the backdrop of the lies and disinformation that the US media leading up to the war on terror, kowtowing a government agenda and working to create a conducive environment for the senseless attack on Iraq and the slaughter of its unarmed civilians.
The US accused Iraq of possessing weapons of mass destruction that, Bush and Blair claimed, threatened the west and invaded Iraq in 2003, despite United Nations weapons inspectors repeatedly stating that Iraq did not possess such weapons. They turned this once almost developed country into a wasteland. Around 1.4 million innocent Iraqis killed so far, hundreds of thousands of innocent men and women were tortured, women indiscriminately raped, infrastructure destroyed and birth, marriage, death, land and vehicle registration offices burnt causing chaos in the society.
Around four million Iraqis who lived in peace were forced into refugee camps in neighboring countries to languish in sub human conditions. More than two million Iraqis were made refugees in their own country. Shiites and Sunnis were put against each other turning Iraq into a killing field where, with the help of a puppet government, western oil companies started looting the country’s oil wealth while the Iraqis starve. And now it turns out that since he stepped down as Prime Minister Tony Blair has pocketed more than $30 million in oil revenues from his secret dealings with a South Korean oil consortium.
There are liars in Admiral Willard’s camp. The so-called US led Western war against terrorism turned out to be a war against Islam and Muslims. Now after Afghanistan and Iraq they have turned their attention on Pakistan that is bleeding. The question is whether this statement is a pretext for US plan to expand its agenda to cover Muslim living as minorities in Sri Lanka and other countries in the region.
The frightening situation worldwide caused by the US led so called war on terrorism is such today that every Muslim with a beard and a head cap and every Muslim woman with a Hijab have been branded as terrorist and humiliated. Muslims have been attacked and killed all over under various pretexts. Muslim refugees walking in sheer desperation in search of shelter with their meager belongings have become frequent common sight worldwide.
Helpless Muslims worldwide are seething with anger at the west.
This is the reason why Sri Lankan Muslims take serious note of Admiral Robert Willard’s disclosures. Sri Lanka has its own share of anti-Muslim elements which could exploit this statement to suit their own agendas. If Admiral Wilfred was speaking the truth he must come up with hard evidence so that the authorities in the island can verify.
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They are coming after Sri Lanka now. If we continue our internal bickering, vulgar external forces can infiltrate and cause havoc. Eternal vigilance and pragmatic policy is the way forward.
This may be true or not, but what we see here in Sri Lanka since recently, the Islamic Fundamentalism being increased. One can see like never before, all black claden women and men in Arabic dress, seems to impose Islamic rule and example of own hegemonic society, more likely showing others (the majority) here see, we are getting strong. This is not a good message for the time to come.
Also they keep increasing their population with no control at all. They are monopolizing the trade and economy here and they have all the ill gotten money from various fraudster works, that is being used to buy over traditional lands and properties belonged to Sinhala Buddhists. ( i.e. Kaudana Road, Dehiwala is now entirely Islamic state.
In their countries, other Phylosophies, Religions and Cultures are not allowed, while they forcebly implement their rule and customs in other secular countries.
This must be stopped with no delay.
God forgive the US!
US - [Edited out] this is a hungry vultures looking to suck your ( country) blood,these are rabies ( mad dogs) running all over without knowing what to do,if you cross it will bite you,if you run away still it will follow and bite you
now this so called country losing its economy rapidly so they try to exploit each and every resourceful country to rob their wealth this is the tactic of this so called countrie’s survival in this universe otherwise it would have vanished long before but their distruction is very near
Dear Caeser
Please don’t try exploite the matter to create a new problem in the society because of people like you,our country went through a bloody war for 30 years,now it is over so please have positive attitude.The muslims they follow the religion ISLAM.Islam mean peace..what does your religion’s meaning.When islam was spreading beyond arabia that is upto Turkey,Spain..China all the war prisoners and enemy were pardoned and they were let to live in their own places without any harm this is ISLAM..what i see in sri lanka or as you claim in your society the budhist monks whome been worshiped by people on the other hand they been brutally attacked by the same people what kind of a FUNDAMENTALISM is this???
I’m inclined to agree with the writer. Laksha-e-Taiba appears to be an organisation whose militancy stems from the Kashmiri conflict. It’s hard to see what interest they would have in Sri Lanka aside from us being a part of their broader goal of creating a pan-subcontinental Islamic state.
However, as Caesar rightly points out, there has been a substantial increase of Islamic fundamentalism in Sri Lanka in recent years as a direct result of Islamofascist influence from the Middle East. Sri Lankan Muslims – at least the ones in Colombo – have traditionally been a Westernised, well assimilated, trade-oriented community. I wonder what they think of this new breed of headscarf and beard wearing Jihadists.
“Also they keep increasing their population with no control at all. They are monopolizing the trade and economy here and they have all the ill gotten money from various fraudster works, that is being used to buy over traditional lands and properties belonged to Sinhala Buddhists. ( i.e. Kaudana Road, Dehiwala is now entirely Islamic state.”
Exactly. That’s why the LTTE kicked them out… can you really blame the LTTE? Muslims simply do not assimilate into the larger mainstream society, at least not on levels comparable to other groups. There is a larger problem, and that is that Islam has not become secular, unlike the other major religions. The Islam you find today is pretty much the same Islam you find in the 16th century.
US IS THE PROSICUTOR AND THE JUDGE
I agree with the comments of Ceaser for a certain extent and it is true that there are black cladding women in Arabic dress than ever now around the country. But now there are more and more Arab tourist are coming to Sri lanka due to the peace and stability in the country.Hotels have accommodated lot of Arab travelers during the last season that one can see as lot of Muslims around the country started to dress in Arab dress. The truth is that almost of them are Arab travelers but not Sri lankans who dressed black cladding dress.
Well known fact is that,when ever Americans want to interfere in the politique of other countries some way or the other, they use their different tactics time to time by commenting on various matters that can make some threat to their national security etc and use it to do some kind of interference on other countries.But we have to take in to account what American say and be vigilant on the matter for the good as well.
@nihal
Islam mean peace
I’m sure it does, but this is not about what the name of your religion means or what is said in its holy books. We’re more interested in how your religion is practised in reality.
Fundamentalist Islam is the most violent and intolerant of the major religions of the world. I say this because Islamic countries do not allow free practice of other religions and their legal and political systems are not compatible with our modern liberal democratic systems of governance.
I’m not an Islamophobe in the sense that I have absolutely nothing against Muslims practising their religion in private without hindering others. Sri Lankan Muslims have been fantastic in this respect, but the question is, are they changing? Radical Islam is a hegemonic religion that ultimately hopes to conquer the whole world. This is the difference between Radical Islam and reformed Chritianity, Buddhism or Hinduism.
I think the problem we have is the likely reaction by Sinhalese Buddhists in the face of this perceived threat by Islamic fundamentalists. We already see a rapid radicalisation of Buddhist nationalists. I’m a secular Sinhalese nationalist who tolerates organised religion as a necessary evil, and I do not want to see a Talibanised Buddha Sasana in Sri Lanka. The fear of Islamification of Sri Lanka may result in a similar radical response by the Buddhists.
Dear Imbecile Caeser,
If you want to defend Buddhism first of all stop being hypocratic & hiding behind a Christian name like “Caeser”. Do you know world history! I doubt you even know our own history.
Stop your petty bickering and your uncouthly comments. Your knowledge of Islam is very low like your knowledge of the history. It is people like you who create problem & terrorism in any community. Let Sri Lankans live in hard earned peace & harmony whether he/she is a Sihalease, Tamil, Moor, Malay or Burger, whether he/she is a Buddhist, Hindu, Christian or Muslim. You comments are far fetched. If you don’t like the way Muslims dress go dress like your western masters. If you don’t like to live in Dehiwala go to Washington DC and lick your masters’ boots but don’t create problem in our society.
Hey Mr. Ceaser if you don’t like Kaudana, Dehiwala why don’t you try Angoda!
I agree with Jayalath. [Edited out]. We just came out of 25 years of war and just tasted a little bit of peace. [Edited out] I hope our good president comes out with a law to charge these type of low-life under emergency law, terrorism, subversion or anything else. They should be sentanced to a solitary confinement in a mental hospital not the prisons – otherwise we’ll have problems there too.
[Edited out].
I am sorry to hear that most of our non muslims brothers view about muslims in sri lanka. First of all i would like to say we sri lankan muslims dont belong to arabia. We absolutely to belongs to sri lanka. We do not wear the dress of arabia. but we are following religion of Islam. Muslim means Submitting their will to One true God. Who ever submits their will to One true god with out worshipping human or created thing he called as a muslim.
islam says do not wear any dress that shows a figure. That is the only reason our muslim women specially wear that Habaya dress which u can not see the figure. Not Bocz people wear it in arabia. Even chinese muslims or somalian muslims do the same thing. Islam also says keep the beared ant trim the mustash, thats why we muslims follow it. My question is, can this habaya dress or beared harm a fly?
Plz do not just take what westerm media says,. If a muslim 50 years old man marrys a 18 years girl comes in news headline. But if a non muslim 60 year old man rape a 6 year old girl comes in news brief. This is media.
Guys lets be fare for all the people in the world.
Again comes to the sri lankan muslims, Do u know how many Muslims serving in sri lankan armed forces? more than thousnads. My uncle was one of them and he sacrificed his life for sri lanka leaving my aunt a widow.
Other thing is in sri lanka people says muslim jaathikayan, sinhla jaathikayan, damila jaathikayin. It should be muslim aagamikayin or boudha aagamikayin, not jaathkayin. Jaathiya is sri lankan.
This is my view. Ur most welcome to criticise but be fair to others. Do not hate some one based on their religion or wealth. We muslims are peace loving people. I always respect my non muslims brothers and sisters.
As a peace loving Muslim Sri Lankan, I forgive & ignore ‘Ceaser’ & the likeminded. Majority of the Sri Lankans have decided to live free & without prejudice. if someone chooses to live in the dark & allow to being manipulated by parties with vested interests, You need to be sympathized for your plight.
God Almighty blesses this wonderful country of ours!!
Dear Heshan,
Sounds like you have a lot in common with Caesar!
“That’s why the LTTE kicked them out… can you really blame the LTTE? Muslims simply do not assimilate into the larger mainstream society, at least not on levels comparable to other groups.”
I heard the same thing about Tamils- they speak a different language and don’t assimilate into the Sinhala “mainstream” society. Hence 1983. Can you blame the UNP govt?
@flanks
i only wrote against the comments made by caesar…ISLAM the arabic word it means peace..so is there anything call peace fundamentalism?? yes i don’t see anything wrong that the islamic country(k s a) doesn’t allow other religions to practice the strong reason behind this is the muslims know 100 % or 1000% what they practice is correct but i think others not sure about what they practice.your modern political and economic sytems utterly failed in the past as well as now hence the world started to look in to other systems specially islamic banking.What do you mean by REFORMED christianity,is it reformed by men like me and you yes that what.ISLAM and Qur’an came from the creator the only one GOD to be worshiped that is ALLAH since the revelation of qur’an to prophet it is been preserved in the same form without a single change to an alphabet.But as you said REFORMED christianity it is wriiten by men like you and me which is subject many errors.ISLAM never say to force even the wholy qur’an say – your religion is for you and my religion is for me but asks the muslims to call others to the correct path..we MUSLIMS love peace all the people are brothers and sisters who came from one father ADAM.What is the problem if muslim wear their head scarf..do you allow another person to enjoy your wife’s or daughter’s figure in public or private no you definitely not,so same way when you enjoy looking a figure of a lady who is beautiful than your wife ..i am sure your thougt will start going behind that lady which will lead to family problems like wise thare are many reasons to cover the modesty of women because the muslim women and her beautiy is only for her husband not to any lustful eyes,muslims ladys are given high privelage than other women in society as her husban look after her provide her shelter,meals,clothing and so on no women enjoy this previlege other than an islamic women so in light of these fact the islamic drsess code or way life never disturb others infact it promote a decepline way of life
Let them close an anicut somewhere first.
@Laksumana, good one!
Mohamed,
“I am sorry to hear that most of our non muslims brothers view about muslims in sri lanka”
How do you know that most non-Muslims are like Caesar and Heshan?
The one thing they say that I somewhat agree with is that over the last several decades, there seems to be a decrease in tolerance within the Muslim world for differences. The “habaya” is a relatively new phenomenon in Sri Lanka; 50 years ago most Muslim women dressed much like their non-Muslim counterparts. If Muslim women choose to dress in a certain way then there is no argument.
This decrease in tolerance is best demonstrated in Muslim-Muslim relations. There are problems between Sunnis and Shias that did not exist before. Ahmadiyya Muslims are persecuted. Sufis (who played the primary role in spreading Islam outside of the Middle East) are described by Wahhabis as heretics and idolaters. Why are these things happening?
Dear Mr Mohamed,
Your comment on how the media report-”a 50 yr old muslim…….” is an extreme distortion of the truth to support your paranoia regarding how the media are anti-muslim.A 60 yr old man raping a 6 yr old girl is despicable and criminal child abuse and is headline news in any media in my experience.
The explanation of the black dress is acceptable but does the “figure” include the face? for this is the part of dress that has caused much contoversy particularly in situations where ID is questioned.As a buddhist who is encouraged to question The Teachings of Buddha,my instinct is to question this dress code but can YOU ask your teachings why it is that dress should not “show the figure”.If it is because the “figure” encourages temptation why did God create such a tempting body and why did HE not create a mind that could resist temptation?I hope you do not issue a “fatwa” against me for asking you !
Whilst it is possible that the US has ulterior motives in the allegations re the spread of Le-T in SL we need to be vigilant to protect against a return to another episode of militancy by ANY group.Often a change in dress accompanies a change in convictions and this is true in Peace (priest’s robes) or in War (uniforms)!
Mr Mohamed also needs to educate us if the Holy Koran does NOT urge all Islamists to strive to kill the Infidels(non believers of Allah) whilst spreding Islam.
First of all I like to let you know that, Srilankan Muslims are quit different than other extremist. We are living here peacefull, Mr.Sarath N Silva’s comment is truth about muslims in srilanka. We never needed weapons and We never accept the weapon culture. who took the weapon instead of peace, they always lost. Eg: LTTE in Our country(Srilanka), USA failier in Afghan and Iraq ect..
Strongly We request our President and the MPs not to allow any weapon culture to inside our land again and Do not accept any US, British Dogs to play inside our country humanities.
Now the time to play with Srilanka’s political, they only need is the REGEM CHANGE(Change the president- who do not listen to them). Only the way to enter is to create a enemy inside our territorial and violence. So they can be create a group like “Laksher E Thaiba” and provide illegal arms and devide this nation to achieve their target.
For Srilankan Muslims- Please alert in this issue. Do not let to grow any extremeist in our country by the name of LeT. and Do not support any kind of the organaizations. Always Be a Srilankan. Peace is our weapon.
I was reading the comments above, and was shocked to see how many people despise anything but their religion. I’m not a Muslim, but I do respect any religion and from what I have read and known, NO religion paves way to terrorism. and the Strict laws of Muslim Countries about not allowing another religion to be practised freely, comes from the people who made the laws and NOT the religion. By any means do not discriminate another religion or race. If you were living in the west you probably would be sent to prison for offending ethnic groups. That reminds me that we have a lot to learn from the west, in terms of togetherness. Most western countries are doing comparatively well because they’ve got a multi religious, multi cultural society. And people learn to live with it.. I don’t see why the Sri Lankans have a problem mixing up with people who don’t follow the same religion or speak the same language. It indeed is a shame.
On that note, many of you up there criticised the dressing of Muslims. I commend them for standing true to their culture, despite the heavy western influence on the rest of the country.
Dont believe a word of the americans. They are a bunch of liars, they have a reputation for picking on smaller less powerful nations. Look what they did in lebanon, iran, iraq, afghanistan and pakistan. They enter and destroy nations for their own gain. They are now looking at sri lanka, because they want to create divisions and unrest within the muslim community and the singhalese now that the tamil issue is over, which they funded and supported for years. The muslims are fun loving people in sri lanka, they have always lived in peace and i hope they don’t fall for this bullshit as their is no lakshar e taiba in sri lanaka. We should kick the us ambassador out as this patricia butenis and her partner in crime, mr robert blake are two terrorists who are going around acting like top cops.
Get a life america. No one needs your advise and who the heck asked for your input anyway? Why dont you go pick on nations like russia, india and china as there seems to muslim extremists there too.
Very good article and well said. There are comments from some ill-minded people. I wish to ignore them. Even if you write 1000 articles you can’t convince those hypcrites. Mr. Vijayapala what the hell makes you feel that you are in danger if Sri Lankan Muslim women wore a headscarf or Abaya/Black gown. This is their religious duty man. Some follow it and other do not. Tell you own people to wear properly when they visit their sacred places. You do it only in sacred places but a Muslim woman must do it when she goes out only. Not in her own home. We will one day see GAY and Lesbian marriages in Sri Lanka for sure. Halks and Whores will be walking all the streets in Sri Lanka…Because we love Western culture…
It is so sad to read so many, anti-muslim rhetoric on this post. Here I am in the UK arguing with white british about our tolerance and respect for other cultures such as islamic, christian and hindu cultures. I even used to praise my people by stating that muslim women can be covered head to toe and there won’t be any hatred among my people.. unfortunately I am wrong.. My people seem to never learn from our mistakes.. we have just come out of a 30 year bloody war.. let us try to heal and fill in this vacuum with greater appreciation for peace, love and respect for one another… if muslim women want to wear the “habaya” and cover themselves head to toe then so be it.. and Ceasar, if you want your daughter, sister, wife, mother wearing next to nothing, then still so be it.. why is it such a problem? please don’t create problems when there isn’t any..
the hypocrisy is that my people don’t care if people ape the west, but when you find people dressing in other traditional clothes then they are turning into terrorists.. please leave the muslims alone..
you know since being here, i have met so many sri lankan tamils who have confided in me that they wept when prabhakaran was killed. they say that it was only the ltte who were there to stand up for them. even today they dont feel comfortable living in Sri Lanka. these people whom i am talking about aren’t suicide bombing tamils or poor tamils who are asylum seekers here. they are educated, regular people who you would sit down and have a drink with in the pub. I realised how we sinhalese don’t want to see anything apart from our own culture and our own way of thinking.. If we as a nation need to grow and become successful, then we need to accept how other people live their lives..
I know for a fact that sri lankan muslims dont want and have never wanted any piece of land in Sri Lanka.. Please don’t do to the muslims what we did to the tamils (1983).. we already have a good reputation in the west as a nation that simply wants to over power minorities using brute force.. let us not give them that excuse… over here in the UK the majority of white british are accepting of muslim “habayas and beards” if you think that by criticizing it you may sound educated and western is simply stupid…
like i said before, please let the muslims be…
Ghouse,
“We will one day see GAY and Lesbian marriages in Sri Lanka for sure.”
Did you know that homo-sexuality is found in the animal kingdom? Did you know that we’ve evolved from Apes? Ergo, we are animals too? Did you know that evolution is a fact beyond dispute? Education is far better than prejudice and bigotry. I suggest you take out a book on biology and read it sometime without displaying to the world what an ignorant muppet you are. Wijayapala’s point about the absence of tolerance is only enhanced.
Wijyapala:
“I heard the same thing about Tamils- they speak a different language and don’t assimilate into the Sinhala “mainstream” society. Hence 1983. Can you blame the UNP govt? ”
Race riots and racial expulsion are two different phenomena. In simple terms, there is a big difference between giving someone 24 hours to pack up and hacking them to death with a machete. The purpose of the race riots was not to kick Tamils out, but to punish them. So your logic does not apply (as usual).
“We will one day see GAY and Lesbian marriages in Sri Lanka for sure.”
I suspect the tendency is already quite strong in SL although not to the extent of legalized marriage. In one Sinhalese blog called “Defense Wire” one reader was happy that a Sinhalese Army General took a poker and performed certain actions on Prabhakaran’s other side. Another reader was overjoyed that Duwaraka was raped before being killed.
I am glad I left that sick country!
The Lashkar-e-Taiba is the latest “germ” to be planted. Sri Lanka had a secret agreement with the US for overflights, berthing, joint training etc etc. Hence as suggested in the article the SLG should be in a position to ask the US for clarification about this story given that the Pacific Fleet had been fleeting around in SL waters a few times in recent years.
This is what happens when you get too close to a big “elephant”! Remember the WMD that never was in Iraq?
Dear nihal,
I do not have any issue with the Muslim women wearing full dress and head scarf, but I do have a problem with women covering their faces; it is an insult to themselves and total disrespect to those outsiders with whom they communicate for whatever reasons; whether you like it or not, this is my view. The Rt. Hon. Jack Straw the British Parliamentarian, who represents the Blackburn constituency, where a good size Muslim population live, questioned this practice and he politely asks women to remove their facial cover at his office!
“What is the problem if muslim wear their head scarf..do you allow another person to enjoy your wife’s or daughter’s figure in public or private no you definitely not,so same way when you enjoy looking a figure of a lady who is beautiful than your wife”
What nonsense; so, you control your wife as to how and what she should be wearing! Is your wife allowed to tell you as to what should you be wearing? How about other women looking at you and fantasising; why is it that, this rule only applied to women and being controlled by their husbands? If a woman is old enough to cast her vote to elect a parliament, and why she is not be allowed to make up her own mind as to what type of cloths she should wear and how she should appear in public within the law of course? If you measure Beautiful in terms looks, you have lost the plot totally!
“..i am sure your thougt will start going behind that lady which will lead to family problems like wise thare are many reasons to cover the modesty of women because the muslim women and her beautiy is only for her husband not to any lustful eyes”
Why should it cause problems within families when others looking at your wife? Are you insecure? In fact, you should be pleased that you have an attractive wife and be proud of it than making your wife’s life miserable! I have not read Koran; please point me as to where in Koran it states that women should cover themselves head-to-toe.
“muslims ladys are given high privelage than other women in society as her husban look after her provide her shelter,meals,clothing and so on no women enjoy this previlege other than an islamic women so in light of these fact the islamic drsess code or way life never disturb others infact it promote a decepline way of life”
I am sure majority of Muslims around the world give their wives respect in the same way as many none Muslims people who do not control their wives! This day and age, both husbands and wives have to earn income to survive. A lady is more than capable of earning income on par with her husband given the chance. If you say that giving your wife shelter, meals and clothing amounts to privileges, you are one hell of a male chauvinist! I would feel very sorry for your wife; this issue has nothing to do with the religion, Islam but it has a lot to do with the concept of controlling and male chauvinism!
Dear Heshan,
“In simple terms, there is a big difference between giving someone 24 hours to pack up and hacking them to death with a machete. The purpose of the race riots was not to kick Tamils out, but to punish them.”
So you would have no objections if Gotabhaya tomorrow gave all Tamils in Sri Lanka 24 hours to get out? Of course the purpose of this would not be to “punish” the Tamils.
Question Heshan: What would the LTTE have done to any Muslim who had remained in Jaffna?
I can draw a few line of summary from the comments made above. some are mere sarcastic, I am trying to clear some misconceptions
1. Muslim fundamentalism, Fundamentalism is defined as strict adherence to a set of basic principle(often religion). It is first used to a group of US protestant Christians who wanted to adhere to the bible in every words. Quran says Enter into the religion fully and do not die not as a Muslim, Muslims try to follow their religion wholly because it gives all necessary guidelines for the life. be it social, political, economic, spiritual, educations, family life Islam did not leave any part of human life without being mentioned and NONE OF ITS FUNDAMENTALS ARE AGAINST THE HUMANITY. so, the rise of Muslims who follow the Fundamentals of it fully is not at all against the humanity. I can guarantee that a Good Muslim should not and will not harm his neighbor without any justification as said in the verse below.
2. Family planning, Islam do not advocate the planning the family for fear of poverty alquran chapter6;151 Say: Come I will recite what your Lord has forbidden to you– (remember) that you do not associate anything with Him and show kindness to your parents, and do not slay your children for (fear of) poverty– We provide for you and for them– and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed, and do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden except for the requirements of justice; this He has enjoined you with that you may understand. and we, the asians swallowed the master plans of west and they succeeded except in case of Muslims. west do not want to see the increased man power in the Asia, It is not practiced in West I know of doctors who have more than 3 or 4 kids!. USA is only 15% in pop but it controls 75% of wealth of the world. if they are genuinely concerned about the poverty they could have distributed some of it.
3.Muslims are not assimilating into the society, Islam is not against having non-Muslims as friends Prophet Mohamed PBUN had many friends but a true Muslims will not attend the anti-social activity such as alcohol party, night club, thundering musics, they cause more hawk than any good to the society.
4.the monopoly of economy, I do not know of any Muslim organization which preach Muslims to control the economy in their hands, Muslims rather concentrated in trade traditionally than education, government service. A few shops in Pettah is not merely mean monopoly. majority of underprivileged uncared shanty dwellers are sadly Muslims open the eyes and see yourself.
5. Increasing numbers in Colombo, for last 20 yrs you may have noticed a few Muslims appear to increase in Colombo. it is obvious that Muslims were kicked out en mass by LTTE from north empty handed. but they were determined and worked hard I know highly respected people even worked as labourers it is their hard earned money they bought a few place to live. and like wise, the educated and wealthy persons were systematically killed and eliminated in the east and they too had to flee for their dear life. So, brother ceaser, Technically SL belongs to all community. they may go back or stay as they wish.
6. Jihadist; the word Jihad is misunderstood and wrongly translated into HOLY WAR. the correct translation of Jihad is strive and struggle be it an education, against the self temptation, working or even in war. the best jihad [struggle] is (by) the one who strives against his own self for Allah, The Mighty and Majestic,” Hadith (sayings of the Prophet Muhammad). The Holy War in arabic is harb-u-muqadasah which does not exist in the Holy Quran. and it is in fact used by the Crusaders to fight against Muslims.
Dear Brothers of My nation, Please, try to understand the truth and be wise and avoid uneasiness among us.
Only the enemy benefits when we fight among us.
Wijayapala:
“So you would have no objections if Gotabhaya tomorrow gave all Tamils in Sri Lanka 24 hours to get out?”
I can’t speak for Colombo Tamils, but the Northern Tamils voted for the TNA even after the LTTE was gone… if they had the opportunity to live without Gotabhaya and the 10001 military checkpoints, military camps, HSZ’s, identity cards, airforce bases, Buddha statues, policemen who speak only Sinhala, etc… – basically everything Gotabhaya’s Defense Ministry is in charge of – I am sure they would jump at the opportunity.
“What would the LTTE have done to any Muslim who had remained in Jaffna? ”
No Muslim remained in Jaffna and the LTTE no longer exists; therefore the question cannot be answered except in a speculative sense.
@ Mohamed
“First of all i would like to say we sri lankan muslims dont belong to arabia. We absolutely to belongs to sri lanka. We do not wear the dress of arabia. but we are following religion of Islam.”
Why do the Muslims in Sri Lanka identify themselves as separate from Tamil and Sinhalese ethnic groups if you classify yourselves as Sri Lankans following Islam. We don’t call ourselves Hindus and Buddhists but based on ethnicity but what makes the Muslims to classify themselves based on their religion?
@ Ghouse
“We will one day see GAY and Lesbian marriages in Sri Lanka for sure. Halks and Whores will be walking all the streets in Sri Lanka…Because we love Western culture…”
You talk of religious freedom for Muslims, yet, you stigmatize another group of people – namely, the homosexuals, for their choice. Isn’t it hypocritical on your part to talk of religious freedom and attack another group for being different?
@ Wijayapala
“So you would have no objections if Gotabhaya tomorrow gave all Tamils in Sri Lanka 24 hours to get out? Of course the purpose of this would not be to “punish” the Tamils.”
LTTE did not differentiate between Tamils, Muslims, and Sinhalese when it came to posing security threat to their movement. I think the same goes for the Sinhalese too. So, it does not go to say Tamils are intolerant of people of other faiths.
@ all the critics of Caeser
Could you prove him wrong with facts? Would you say the same after having visited Kathankudy? Could someone prove with census data that they are not the “fastest” growing minority in the country?
I have nothing personal against Muslims but I find them hypocritical when attacking the West and Islam’s intolerance for people of other faiths should be noted.
Dear Wijayapala,
“Question Heshan: What would the LTTE have done to any Muslim who had remained in Jaffna?”
Do you think Muslims would have preferred to remain in Jaffna in any case, given that the life in Jaffna was getting tough in the 90′s? I presume they would have chosen to leave even if LTTE did not force them to do so instead of having to endure curfews and the bombs.
This is what I do not understand from those people who cry of Muslim expulsion, which seems to be so many here – why did the Muslims not choose to return to Jaffna in 1995 when Jaffna fell back into the security force’s custody? The point is they have not chosen to move back because they knew life there was hard and they would have opted to leave anyway.
“I have nothing personal against Muslims but I find them hypocritical when attacking the West and Islam’s intolerance for people of other faiths should be noted. ”
Exactly. The problem is not with Muslims but the failure of Islam to evolve in accordance with history. The intolerance we see in Islam today can probably be found in most other religions at some point or another throughout history. The difference is that these religions have largely outgrown such practices. On the other hand, there are those who would argue that Islam *cannot* evolve, period… in which case, the initial hypothesis (does the problem lie with Muslims or Islam) must be re-examined. Personally, I like to think that Islam can indeed evolve – after all – it is a man-made belief system, one that is not set in stone. The first thing to do, as the above commentator rightly stated, is make amends with the West. The rest will follow like a breath of fresh air.
@ Burning_Issue
please point me as to where in Koran it states that women should cover themselves head-to-toe.
Surah(chapter) 24 verse no 29-30 says about the dress code and not only about dress code the holy qur’an continues to say a lot about other things
Chapter 41 verse (2) A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur’an in Arabic, for people who understand;-
Chapter 54 verse (25)and We sent down Iron, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind,
Chapter 95 verse (2) he Has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood)
Chapter 91 verse (1-4)And by the sun and its brightness; (1) And by the moon as it follows it (the sun); (2) And by the day as it shows up (the sun’s) brightness; (3) And by the night as it conceals it (the sun
Chapter 39 verse (6)He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation in three veils of darkness,
Chapter 86 verse (6-7)Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted. Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs…..
…..an so on ALL THESE AND MANY MORE FACTS WERE TOLD 14 CENTURIES AGO..now it’s time for you to think and research on the above verses
Muslim Sinhalese & Tamils in Sri Lanka have well behaved over recent history more than some Sinhala Buddhists or Tamil Hindus. They’re entrepreneurial and served the country well. We should value a community like that. Sri Lanka is a beautiful place because of all the different types of people we have. We should only see in terms of those who love the country and those who don’t. Not race, religion.
Agree with the author, US is just paranoid these days. They want to find enemies all over the world, if not hallucinate about it…sigh! Soon they will realise no one likes them. Hopefully they will come to their senses.
ModVoice,
Oh dear, your questions and suggestions reflect you have born after 18th may 2009, you need to analyse the issues as it is,
Dear nihal,
I asked you the following:
“please point me as to where in Koran it states that women should cover themselves head-to-toe.”
You replied by quoting the following:
“Surah(chapter) 24 verse no 29-30 says about the dress code and not only about dress code the holy qur’an continues to say a lot about other things
Chapter 41 verse (2) A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur’an in Arabic, for people who understand;-
Chapter 54 verse (25)and We sent down Iron, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind,
Chapter 95 verse (2) he Has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood)
Chapter 91 verse (1-4)And by the sun and its brightness; (1) And by the moon as it follows it (the sun); (2) And by the day as it shows up (the sun’s) brightness; (3) And by the night as it conceals it (the sun
Chapter 39 verse (6)He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation in three veils of darkness,
Chapter 86 verse (6-7)Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted. Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs…..”
All those chapters that you quoted above do not prove anything whatsoever. I asked a simple question and you have not shown to me and to the people who read these forums as to where exactly in Koran it states that the women should be covered head-to-toe! You are hiding behind the text of Koran, and unable show me the exact text that tells, implicitly even, that the Muslims women to dress in such a way!
As far as I can see through researching on the net; the following is written in the Koran:
“THREE RULES FOR WOMEN DRESS CODE IN ISLAM
FIRST RULE: THE BEST GARMENT
SECOND RULE: COVER YOUR BOSOMS
THIRD RULE: LENGTHEN YOUR GARMENTS”
The Koran does not even mention about the head scarf let alone the face cover! Please look at the following websites:
http://islamw3d.freehosting.net/
http://www.submission.info/perspectives/women/dresscode.html
I live in England and have seen many debates to this effect, and heard many Islamic Scholars publicly stating that Koran does not say that women should cover themselves head-to-toe.
You have not answered to my charge that, it has nothing to do with Islam but everything to do with male chauvinism, and why?
You said:
“…..an so on ALL THESE AND MANY MORE FACTS WERE TOLD 14 CENTURIES AGO..now it’s time for you to think and research on the above verses”
I have done my research already mister; this was why I questioned your pathetic post in the first place! Isn’t it clear to you that, you are insecure and cannot bear other men even look at your wife; this is why you want your wife to cover herself head-to-toe. You do this to safeguard your insecurity and you do not care two hoots about the rights of your wife! The fact is that, you do not own your wife; your wife is a human being with as much rights as you have.
Lashkar-e-Taiba has been associated with the long drawn out Kasmir problem; so from where did this planted story really originate? Is it the hidden hand of India again?
Dear Heshan,
“if they had the opportunity to live without Gotabhaya and the 10001 military checkpoints, military camps, HSZ’s, identity cards, airforce bases, Buddha statues, policemen who speak only Sinhala, etc… – basically everything Gotabhaya’s Defense Ministry is in charge of – I am sure they would jump at the opportunity.”
Then why don’t the Tamils leave SL?
Dear ModVoice,
“Do you think Muslims would have preferred to remain in Jaffna in any case, given that the life in Jaffna was getting tough in the 90′s? I presume they would have chosen to leave even if LTTE did not force them to do so instead of having to endure curfews and the bombs.”
The fact that quite a number of Tamils stayed in Jaffna even after themselves being expelled in 1995 by the LTTE answers your question.
“This is what I do not understand from those people who cry of Muslim expulsion, which seems to be so many here – why did the Muslims not choose to return to Jaffna in 1995 when Jaffna fell back into the security force’s custody?”
Because the LTTE controlled the A9 road and any other route to Jaffna. Were you not aware of that?
I ernestly request the moderators of this forum to remove comments that incite racial hatred and are off-topic, for example the excerpts from the Koran, that are totally off topic and are posted to provide/annul justification for a women’s dress (which for god sake is her choice!).
We publish so that those like yourself can expose these comments for what they are.
“Then why don’t the Tamils leave SL? ”
Difficult to leave when you’ve lived somewhere a couple thousand years. In any case, it is not so easy to leave SL… besides the problem of visa acquisition, there are other issues.
I’m Sinhalese (and Buddhist by religion) and I agree with the author’s assessement. I think Lashkar-e-Taiba in Sri Lanka is a bit far fetched. Alongside the upcountry Tamils, I think the Sri Lankan Muslims as a community have behaved quite admirably in comparison to both the Sinhalese and SL Tamil communities. Despite being Tamil speaking and having a totally different religion to most Sri Lankans, the Muslims never took to arms to achieve their rights.
I don’t think that what individual Muslims chose to wear ought to be anyone’s concern. That said, I wonder whether the new brand of Wahabi/Salafi Islam that is gaining ground in Sri Lanka is healthy at all, just like the evangelical brand of Christianity I think it preaches intolerance. But of course it is up to the individual what they want to follow.
Dear Suriya,
“I don’t think that what individual Muslims chose to wear ought to be anyone’s concern.”
Sure; I concur with the above with a reservation which I outlined in one of my posts. However, one has to respond to the following comments:
“muslims ladys are given high privelage than other women in society as her husban look after her provide her shelter,meals,clothing and so on no women enjoy this previlege other than an islamic women so in light of these fact the islamic drsess code or way life never disturb others infact it promote a decepline way of life”
A, he/she assumed that the Islamic women get high privileges than the non-Islamic women!
B, He/she attributes such privileges to shelter, meals, clothing and so on
C, then supports the Islamic dress code based on these privileges
If one wants to follow a religion and adopts a particular dress code, so be it, I have no issues with that. However, I have issues with those women who cover their faces; it is my view; I do not expect the others to agree with me.
Heshan says
“Difficult to leave when you’ve lived somewhere a couple thousand years. In any case, it is not so easy to leave SL… besides the problem of visa acquisition, there are other issues.”
I did not know that a person can live 2000 years.
“Difficult to leave when you’ve lived somewhere a couple thousand years.”
Starting from around the 1200s with Magha’s invasion (when the first major Tamil colonies were established in Sri Lanka) , that’s only 700 years. What are these thousands of years you speak of?
“In simple terms, there is a big difference between giving someone 24 hours to pack up and hacking them to death with a machete”
I don’t recall ever hearing of Tamils being hacked to death during the 1983 riots. Why are you attributing a LTTE tactic to cleanse the North of the Sinhalese and Muslims to the rioters?
And the 24 hours to leave had provisions.. There was only a few items and only a small amount of money they were allowed to take. The Muslims didn’t “jump at the chance” and neither would the Northern Tamils if they are forced to abandon all that they own and all the money they possess.
“That’s why the LTTE kicked them out… can you really blame the LTTE?”
@Heshan What a hypocritical LTTE apologist you are. Are you really justifying the LTTE expulsion because of some prejudice you have against Islam?
How has Hinduism evolved btw unlike Islam?
“LTTE no longer exists”
The LTTE still exists in Scarborough, Toronto, London, Paris, etc.
@ Wijayapala,
“Because the LTTE controlled the A9 road and any other route to Jaffna. Were you not aware of that?”
Was A9 not accessible during the CFA period as well?
This is the problem with those who talk of the expulsion of Muslims by the LTTE – that is they fail to acknowledge that many Muslims would have left Jaffna voluntarily contrary to the claims of expulsion, otherwise given the opportunity to return, they would have done so back then.
@ azath,
“Oh dear, your questions and suggestions reflect you have born after 18th may 2009, you need to analyse the issues as it is,”
If you could elaborate as to what in my posts suggest that I was born after 18th May 2009…
Sticking to the issue, places like Kathankudy can be hot beds for Islamic extremists, so one shouldn’t outright reject the US report. Weren’t there small Islamic militant groups operating in the East in the past?
@ Heshan,
Cannot put it any better – Islam simply needs to evolve with the time!
Dear Janaki,
“I don’t recall ever hearing of Tamils being hacked to death during the 1983 riots. Why are you attributing a LTTE tactic to cleanse the North of the Sinhalese and Muslims to the rioters?”
That is because you haven’t researched enough about the pogroms, particularly the acts of ethnic cleansing committed in the East against the Tamils by security forces or by the thugs backed by the monks and the politicians.
Janaki,
“How has Hinduism evolved btw unlike Islam?”
When was the last time you saw a “holy war” started in the name of Hinduism?
India, a largely Hindu country, allows multi-faiths. Now, compare that to Pakistan.
“That is because you haven’t researched enough about the pogroms, particularly the acts of ethnic cleansing committed in the East against the Tamils by security forces or by the thugs backed by the monks and the politicians.”
@ModVoice
This is pure speculation and undocumented. Most (if not all) the atrocities of the army in the East involved soldiers going into civilian areas and SHOOTING civilians not hacking them to death. If you can provide me a source for an incident involving hacking though be my guest. And don’t link me to something on a website like tamilnet or sangam.
And “ethnic cleansing”? That’s the forte of the Tamils as the Muslims very well know.
@ModVoice
“This is the problem with those who talk of the expulsion of Muslims by the LTTE – that is they fail to acknowledge that many Muslims would have left Jaffna voluntarily contrary to the claims of expulsion, otherwise given the opportunity to return, they would have done so back then.”
Most of the Muslims expelled come from Mannar and other non-Jaffna regions. Only about 10,000 were in Jaffna. After they were forced out their land was given to Tamils by the LTTE and Mosques and other Muslim relics were destroyed. Are you asking them to go back to this?
And the army only had nominal control over Jaffna after 1995. The LTTE was very much present in the area. Remember the boycott of 2005 where the LTTE elected Mahinda?
And really a few people did go back during the ceasefire but they then had to face suspicion by the Army for going into LTTE areas.
How many of the overseas Tamils came back to Sri Lanka during the ceasefire? Does this mean they have forfeited their claim on their former homes in Sri Lanka?
@Heshan @ModVoice
I hate to go here but you guys do realize that Hinduism is the most ancient religion of them all and still basically holds the same beliefs as believers thousands of years ago?
Hinduism is the pagan religion of India which has remained while other regions have adapted monotheistic religions. Arabic people had polytheistic religions before they adapted Islam too.
And what of tht hanging people by hooks, sticking iron rods up your tongue, etc. that Tamils in Sri Lanka practice? This extreme body mutilation is outdated much more than any practice of Islam in Sri Lanka.
Heshan, by your argument the few Veddahs who still hold onto their traditional beliefs should have their land taken from them because they haven’t adapted to modern standards. You can’t impose your standards of what is “civilized” on other people. Learn to respect other religions. Islam as it is in Sri Lanka has never caused any harm to anyone.
@Heshan @ModVoice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaipusam
@ModVoice
The sense of communal harmony between Hindus and Muslims in the post-partition period has been compromised in the last decade with the razing of the disputed Babri Mosque in Ayodhya. The demolition took place in 1992 and was allegedly perpetrated by the Hindu Nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party and organizations like Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad.
Some of the most violent events in recent times took place during the infamous Gujarat riots in 2002 where it is estimated one thousand people were killed, most of whom allegedly Muslim, some sources claim there were approximately 2,000 Muslim deaths,[53] there were also allegations made of state involvement.[54][55]
@ModVoice
Pakistan allows multiple religions too:
* Muslims: 175,376,000
o Sunni Muslims: 75%
o Shia Muslims: 20%
o Ahmadi Muslims: 4,000,000 (2.3%) [9]
* Hindus: 3,200,000
* Christians: 2,800,000
* Bahá’à Faith: 30,000[10] – 78,000[11]
* Sikhs: 20,000
* Zoroastrian/Parsis: 20,000
* Buddhism: 70,000
* Other (included Animists, Atheists, Jews, etc): unknown
And about the “Holy War”.. The Islamic Militants have just about as much do with Islam as the LTTE has to do with the Sri Lankan Tamils. It’s simply a way to gather support for their movement. Islam doesn’t encourage violence and neither does the Tamils. They have not taken up arms because of some religious or societal concept rather because they feel a sense of being “wronged”. With Islamic militants it’s the creation of the state of Israel displacing Palestinians, the occupation of Islamic Holy places in Saudi Arabia, etc. while with Tamils it’s the sense of not being represented fairly in government and a feeling of being persecuted buoyed by the 1983 riots and subsequent ruthlessness of the Sri Lankan army.
Janaki,
You said:
“I hate to go here but you guys do realize that Hinduism is the most ancient religion of them all and still basically holds the same beliefs as believers thousands of years ago?”
“Hinduism is the pagan religion of India which has remained while other regions have adapted monotheistic religions. Arabic people had polytheistic religions before they adapted Islam too.”
Obviously, you should not have any association with paganism; should you? Change your name/alias, which refers to the Hindu Goddess Sita
Wikipedia says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sita:
“Goddess Sita was born in Sitamarhi (Punaura) in Bihar (India) and soon after her birth, taken to Janakpur in present day Nepal by her father, King Janak. She is esteemed as the standard setter for wifely and womanly virtues for all Hindu women. Understood theologically in Hinduism, Sita is an avatÄra of Lakshmi. Sita was a foundling, discovered in a furrow in a ploughed field, and for that reason is regarded as a daughter of Bhudevi, the Goddess Mother Earth. She was found and adopted by Janaka, hence she was also called Janaki,….”
I am not religious, but for you to argue that, Hinduism has not evolved with time is preposterous! I was born in a Hindu family and spent my childhood around a prominent Hindu temple in Jaffna; I am very proud to say that, Hinduism gave me freedom from religious confinements and allowed me to develop my own understanding of aspects of life, which is very modern to me in any sense of the word!
Janaki,
“And what of tht hanging people by hooks, sticking iron rods up your tongue, etc. that Tamils in Sri Lanka practice? This extreme body mutilation is outdated much more than any practice of Islam in Sri Lanka.”
I agree with you that these are some bizarre rituals that are still being practices by some individuals. However, the important aspect of this is that, there is no religious basis or some sort of authority that governs such practices. Such practices were developed or retained by certain regions when Hinduism was spreading during the ancient times. It might be that, such practices existed well before the introduction of Hinduism! On the same token, I say that, when Buddhism was embraced by the Sinhala Kings and subjects, they did not totally let go of their attachments to Hindu Deities; this is why one sees symbols of Hindu Gods and Goddesses in Buddhist Viharas in Sri Lanka and not in any other Buddhist following nations!
“The sense of communal harmony between Hindus and Muslims in the post-partition period has been compromised in the last decade with the razing of the disputed Babri Mosque in Ayodhya. The demolition took place in 1992 and was allegedly perpetrated by the Hindu Nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party and organizations”
I agree that the Hindu nationalism was to blame for this act; I was dismayed at that time and spoken to many Hindu Indians and they all said it was bad for the country. However, one has to give credit to the Indians for rectifying the situation and have successfully kept the Hindu nationalist party out of power and looks as if there is no appetite for nationalistic politics in India at national level, which is admirable. One more thing; the total numerical strength of the Muslim population in India is far greater than what is recorded in Pakistan! By contrast, the Hindu population in Pakistan has been declining year-on-year and would you care to explain as to why that is the case?
The Muslims in India are classes as a minority group (even in states where the Muslim population outnumber the others) and thus entitled to many social concessions through quota system including in state education and employment; did know this? Some Indian states subsidise Muslims travel costs to Mecca; did you know this? Please do some research before putting pen to paper in the forums such as these!
Let me give the percentages of the ethnic groups in Pakistan; source: Factbook Iphone:
Punjabi: 44.68%
Pashtun: 15.42%
Sindhi: 14.1%
Sariaki: 8.38%
Muhagirs: 7.57%
Balochi: 3.57%
Other: 6.28%
Religions:
Muslims: 95% (Sunni 75%, Shia 20%)
Other: 5% (includes Christians and Hindus)
The Sindhis have been traditionally Hindus, and it looks as if many have converted to Islam; without such a mammoth change, the percentage would not add up considering the ethnicity and religion! In time, Pakistan will be totally populated by Muslim population and in essence, Pakistan is a Muslim nation and not a secular nation and it will never be such!
Janaki,
Heshan is not a Hindu so it won’t work to ask him about Hinduism. He is a Christian fundamentalist who believes that God speaks to him.
I didn’t say Hinduism or paganism is bad. I just wanted to point out the irony of Heshan and ModVoice going on about how Islam is out-of-date because of some prejudices they’ve formed based on extremist movements when Hinduism still retains it’s traditional features almost unchanged. A Muslim could make the same argument as you did about how the religion helped him/her gain an understanding of life.
I love Hindu Gods like Hanuman and Ganesh btw.
“The Sindhis have been traditionally Hindus, and it looks as if many have converted to Islam; without such a mammoth change, the percentage would not add up considering the ethnicity and religion! In time, Pakistan will be totally populated by Muslim population and in essence, Pakistan is a Muslim nation and not a secular nation and it will never be such!”
Are you sure? The Wikipedia article states the region was a pre-dominant Muslims area. The Hindu people seem to have left following the partition of India in 1947.
Dear ModVoice,
I have to say you and Heshan are doing a wonderful job making me feel less guilty about Sinhala misdeeds against Tamils, although most Tamils I’ve met haven’t exhibited the same racist mindsets that you have.
“Was A9 not accessible during the CFA period as well?”
Yes- through LTTE territory. Do you think the LTTE would have allowed Muslims to go through their territory to Jaffna?
Janaki:
“Starting from around the 1200s with Magha’s invasion”
I don’t know when the Tamils arrived in SL, but it has certainly been more than a thousand years. If there was a Sinhalese-Buddhist empire that spanned all four corners of the island – such as Cyril Matthew envisioned – then the remnants of that empire ought to be found in abundance all over the island. Also, if we assume that Sinhalese arrived on the island first – before Tamils – then the lack of Sinhalese-speaking Tamils in the North and East is rather telling. You see, simple logic would presume that if Sinhalese came first and Tamils came second, then the Tamils would have driven the Sinhalese to the South of the island at some point. Nevertheless, there would be a great volume of archaelogical evidence to support Sinhalese settlements in the North and East (which is there is not) and there would be a sizable segment of Tamils in the North and East who spoke Sinhalese, if we assume that there had been trade between the Tamils in the North and the Sinhalese in the South, for any tangible period of time.
” I hate to go here but you guys do realize that Hinduism is the most ancient religion of them all and still basically holds the same beliefs as believers thousands of years ago? ”
If we assume that Hinduism is primary religion of India, and that the impact of Hinduism has had the greatest impact on the followers of Hinduism in India, then it is easy to see that Hinduism, as a belief-system, has evolved very well alongside Indian history. Look at Indian politics. There has a Seikh Prime Minister, and a Catholic head of the Congress Party (the two most powerful positions in Indian politics today). What about political models? India adopted federalism at the beginning of independence, there was never any question about maximum devolution of power to the minorities. The fact of the matter is, Hindu India has evolved much better than Sinhala-Buddhist Sri Lanka.
“And what of tht hanging people by hooks, sticking iron rods up your tongue, etc. that Tamils in Sri Lanka practice? This extreme body mutilation is outdated much more than any practice of Islam in Sri Lanka. ”
Other than the Marxist-inclined LTTE, which did not officially affiliate itself with Hinduism, “Hindu” suicide bombers are a relatively rare phenomenon. In fact, one cannot make any connection whatsoever between LTTE suicide bombers and Hinduism, since such suicide bombers were entirely the beginning and end product of Tamil nationalism.
What about Islam? Oh boy, where do I even start… there is actually a justification for violence that be found in the Q’uran – it is called “jihad.” In the Muslim belief-system, jihad is justified against any infidel, e.g. non-Muslim, who refuses to convert to Islam. It is not even a question of tolerance. It is not even a question of letting your neighbor do as he wishes, so long as he doesn’t harm you. The point is that if your neighbor is a non-Muslim, then you are allowed to do as jihad proscribes. The jihad that is undertaken by followers of Al-Qaeda is based partly on the premise that American soldiers in Saudi Arabia are in the vicinity of the “holy land” Mecca and are carrying out non-Muslim activities such as drinking and smoking. You see, it does not matter that these American soldiers would fight against the enemies of Saudi Arabia if there was a war in that area. All that matters is that these soldiers are infidels and they are “polluting” the Holy Land. Another justification for jihad has to do with the existence of Israel; since most Muslim countries don’t recognize the existence of Israel, it is okay to do jihad against any ally of Israel.
“Heshan, by your argument the few Veddahs who still hold onto their traditional beliefs should have their land taken from them because they haven’t adapted to modern standards. You can’t impose your standards of what is “civilized” on other people. Learn to respect other religions. Islam as it is in Sri Lanka has never caused any harm to anyone.”
Veddhas never tried to impose their belief systems on anyone. Veddahs have never migrated in large numbers to other countries and demanded special treatment. Veddhas have never attacked those who did not agree with them. Islam in SL has not quite reached such a volatile stage, but it is not the case in other countries. If Lashkar-e-Taiba finds a mass following in SL, what will follow is not hard to predict.
wijayapala,
Actually I consider myself a non-practicing Christian, far more enlightened than any Sinhala-Buddhist supporter of HE Mahinda Rajapakse, so-called incarnation of Dutugemunu and soon-to-be on the Forbes’ list of billionaires, if he bothers to disclose those assets which he acquired in the most Sinhala-Buddhist of ways.
Janaki:
” “I don’t recall ever hearing of Tamils being hacked to death during the 1983 riots. Why are you attributing a LTTE tactic to cleanse the North of the Sinhalese and Muslims to the rioters?” ”
The security forces have done a lot more than just hacking… why do you think there was a ban on the media? To be fair, the security forces are not the only aggressors here, the IPKF and LTTE also carried out atrocities in their day.
“The LTTE still exists in Scarborough, Toronto, London, Paris, etc.”
You cannot kill an ideology through violence. That is why the military approach to the ethnic conflict was flawed from the beginning.
Janaki,
“I just wanted to point out the irony of Heshan and ModVoice going on about how Islam is out-of-date because of some prejudices they’ve formed based on extremist movements when Hinduism still retains it’s traditional features almost unchanged.”
Given that Heshan and maybe ModVoice too are not Hindus, the irony is lost on them. And Burning_Issue is correct- Hinduism has changed a great deal over the centuries, arguably even more than Theravada Buddhism and Islam.
“A Muslim could make the same argument as you did about how the religion helped him/her gain an understanding of life.”
I am sorry that I did not imply that, Hinduism spiritually help me to understand the world; I said the following:
“I am very proud to say that, Hinduism gave me freedom from religious confinements and allowed me to develop my own understanding of aspects of life, which is very modern to me in any sense of the word!”
What I meant was that, Hinduism, my family, and the community did not subject me to religious confinement; in other words, it is not in Hindu philosophy to control the people; there is total freedom.
You asked:
“Are you sure? The Wikipedia article states the region was a pre-dominant Muslims area. The Hindu people seem to have left following the partition of India in 1947.”
I quote from the following website: http://www.findyourfate.com/religion/festivals/sindhifestivals.html:
“Sindhis are a Sindhi speaking socio-ethnic group of people originating from Sindh now a province of Pakistan. Today Sindhis that live in Pakistan are predominantly Muslim but there are also smaller minorities of Hindus and Christians. After the Partition of India in 1947, a large number of Indian Muslims(Muhajirs) flocked into Pakistan and settled in the prosperous Sindh region. At the same time Sindhi Hindus migrated to India in large numbers, while many of those who remained converted to Islam.”
In all seriousness, I think that the Tamils must apologise unreservedly to the Northern Muslims for what LTTE had done to them. There is no excuse whatsoever for their action; it was barbaric and inhumane.
Before LTTE, there was no issues whatsoever between the Tamils and Muslims in the Northern Province.
Sony,
“I did not know that a person can live 2000 years.”
Heshan claims that he is more enlightened than Sinhala Buddhists, so the statement that Tamil persons have lived for thousands of years is one of enlightenment.
Heshan:
“I don’t know when the Tamils arrived in SL, but it has certainly been more than a thousand years. If there was a Sinhalese-Buddhist empire that spanned all four corners of the island – such as Cyril Matthew envisioned – then the remnants of that empire ought to be found in abundance all over the island. Also, if we assume that Sinhalese arrived on the island first – before Tamils – then the lack of Sinhalese-speaking Tamils in the North and East is rather telling. You see, simple logic would presume that if Sinhalese came first and Tamils came second, then the Tamils would have driven the Sinhalese to the South of the island at some point. Nevertheless, there would be a great volume of archaelogical evidence to support Sinhalese settlements in the North and East (which is there is not) and there would be a sizable segment of Tamils in the North and East who spoke Sinhalese, if we assume that there had been trade between the Tamils in the North and the Sinhalese in the South, for any tangible period of time. ”
There’s plenty of evidence of Sinhala presence in the North. Kantharodai, Nagadipa and the many other Buddhist archeological remains found in the North and the East. http://dh-web.org/place.names/
http://www.angelfire.com/planet/heritagesl2/kantarodai/kantarodai4.htm
It’s not a valid argument that the Northern Tamils were Buddhists considering that the Jaffna Kingdom was strictly Hindu and the Mannar temple Koneswaram is widely held in regard by Tamil Nadu scholars while there is little mention of Tamil Buddhist temples in Sri Lanka.
And how could a Sinhala community remain when they are slaughtered and pushed out of the North by the South Indian invaders? Magha definitely did this and his atrocities are noted.
“India adopted federalism at the beginning of independence, there was never any question about maximum devolution of power to the minorities. The fact of the matter is, Hindu India has evolved much better than Sinhala-Buddhist Sri Lanka. ”
India is made up of divergent groups that exist in equal numbers. Sri Lanka is predominantly Sinhalese (at least 70%). India has no option but to go with federalism while in Sri Lanka’s case it’s not so necessary with a clear majority.
Of course Tamils should have some power and devolution should occur. But as in many other countries the majority was seized with nationalism (without a significant force to bring it into control).
@Heshan:
“What about Islam? Oh boy, where do I even start… there is actually a justification for violence that be found in the Q’uran – it is called “jihad.” In the Muslim belief-system, jihad is justified against any infidel, e.g. non-Muslim, who refuses to convert to Islam. It is not even a question of tolerance. It is not even a question of letting your neighbor do as he wishes, so long as he doesn’t harm you. The point is that if your neighbor is a non-Muslim, then you are allowed to do as jihad proscribes. The jihad that is undertaken by followers of Al-Qaeda is based partly on the premise that American soldiers in Saudi Arabia are in the vicinity of the “holy land” Mecca and are carrying out non-Muslim activities such as drinking and smoking. You see, it does not matter that these American soldiers would fight against the enemies of Saudi Arabia if there was a war in that area. All that matters is that these soldiers are infidels and they are “polluting” the Holy Land. Another justification for jihad has to do with the existence of Israel; since most Muslim countries don’t recognize the existence of Israel, it is okay to do jihad against any ally of Israel. ”
It’s quite odd how only in the 20th century this Islam extremism has developed when the religion has existed for a thousand plus years. This should be an obvious indication that this is a new development and not a feature of the religion Islam.
Considering when the movement started it seems to be rooted in anti-colonialism. Faced with subjugation by European colonists some misguided Muslims have attempted to create a strict regime of Islam that highly extenuates the differences between them and their invaders.
Islam history is one of great tolerance. Prior to the 20th Century and colonialism, Islamic empires have been bastions of high religious freedom. Muslim empires have since antiquity provided harbor for Jews fleeing persecution in Europe (this is before modern times mind). Contrast this with the actions of Spanish Christians which banished or forced conversion on non-believers. Contrast this with most Christian empires really…
@Burning_Issue:
“At the same time Sindhi Hindus migrated to India in large numbers, while many of those who remained converted to Islam.””
This does not mean the area was predominantly Hindu. It simply says there was a minority of Sindhi Hindus who left for India, converted or remained without converting.
@Burning_Issue:
“What I meant was that, Hinduism, my family, and the community did not subject me to religious confinement; in other words, it is not in Hindu philosophy to control the people; there is total freedom.”
I guess you were lucky to have such a liberal upbringing. Those who grew up under the Hindu sanctioned caste system wouldn’t say they had “total freedom” though.
Janaki,
“And how could a Sinhala community remain when they are slaughtered and pushed out of the North by the South Indian invaders? Magha definitely did this and his atrocities are noted.”
Magha may have temporarily pushed the Sinhalese out of the north and east, but the reasons why the Sinhalese were not able to return (as they did after numerous other invasions from S. India) have to do with overcentralization and malaria. Remember that the Dambadeniya kings eventually pushed Magha out of Polonnaruwa and into Jaffna.
There is quite a bit of evidence that there was a sizable Sinhala population in Jaffna until about the 1400s or 1500s, and Sinhala was used widely in the east until the British era.
“India has no option but to go with federalism while in Sri Lanka’s case it’s not so necessary with a clear majority.”
Heshan might speak with God but his knowledge of history isn’t good. India did not invent federalism after independence; it already had a quasi-federal provincial/presidency system throughout its colonial era. Sri Lanka in contrast had a unitary system after the 1833 Colebrooke-Cameron reforms; contrary to what Heshan believes, the Sinhalese did not create the unitary state but only inherited it and formalized it in later constitutions.
“There’s plenty of evidence of Sinhala presence in the North. Kantharodai, Nagadipa and the many other Buddhist archeological remains found in the North and the East.”
I am very sorry to bud in; have you heard of Tamil Buddhists in Sri Lanka? Buddhist Archaeological evidences do not automatically mean that there were Sinhalese exclusively! It was the Chola invasion in the 12th Century AD that split the nation in ethic lines. Those who left out of the Chola rule both Tamil and Sinhala became Buddhists and Sinhala. Those who remained in the Chola rule became Tamils and Hindus.
Do you agree that, the Sinhalese are primarily Dravidians as much as the Tamils?
Janaki,
“This does not mean the area was predominantly Hindu. It simply says there was a minority of Sindhi Hindus who left for India, converted or remained without converting.”
I think that you are getting confused! I said that the Sindhi people have been traditionally Hindus; however, the process of conversion to Islam started long while back. Once the Partition of Pakistan and India materialised, many Sindhi people who decided to stay behind converted to Islam; this is a fact. I am working with two Sindhi people from India at the moment; their forefathers migrated to India during the partition; they are very sensitive about this issue. Basically, their land, culture, nationhood have been decimated rather like the Kurdish people!
Janaki,
“I guess you were lucky to have such a liberal upbringing. Those who grew up under the Hindu sanctioned caste system wouldn’t say they had “total freedom” though.”
Religious freedom and cast issues are two different things. I say it again that, Hinduism as a religion does not control people; if one wants to be religious so be it, there is no authority to force one confining to the religion; this is a fact. One might belong to a lower cast, but still has the freedom to choose to be religious or not!
The cast system has been abysmal for a long period of time, which meant that, the lower cast people weren’t allowed in the temples in which the higher cast people worshiped; this does not mean one is compelled to be religious as it were. Such bad practices were slowly changing during the 70s; the two good aspects about the LTTE was that, they crushed the cast system while elevating the women to be as equal as men in many respects.
What exactly sanctioned the cast system among the Sinhalese? Why is that a Gavigama man wants to marry within the same cast?
“I am very sorry to bud in; have you heard of Tamil Buddhists in Sri Lanka? Buddhist Archaeological evidences do not automatically mean that there were Sinhalese exclusively! It was the Chola invasion in the 12th Century AD that split the nation in ethic lines. Those who left out of the Chola rule both Tamil and Sinhala became Buddhists and Sinhala. Those who remained in the Chola rule became Tamils and Hindus.”
The Chola invasion was much earlier. Magha invaded in the 12th Century.
If there were Tamil Buddhists these were communities that lived alongside Sinhalese not separate mono-ethnic groups.
The main factor against such remains as Nagadipa and Kantharodai being of Tamil Buddhist creation is the fact that there is no narrative of a Buddhist Tamil presence in Lanka. There may have been a Buddhist Tamil community in South India but this is not recorded in Lanka. There is a rich history among the Sinhalese about Nagadipa though and areas like Mannar (Mahathita) and Trincomalee (Gokana).
The Tamil Buddhist record of Manimekalai seems to exist in a vacuum and in any case documents a South Indian prince and not a Lankan one.
“Do you agree that, the Sinhalese are primarily Dravidians as much as the Tamils?”
Probably. I don’t think the Sinhalese descended from some rogue prince who came down from North India rather they descended from a group native to the island.
“I think that you are getting confused! I said that the Sindhi people have been traditionally Hindus; however, the process of conversion to Islam started long while back. Once the Partition of Pakistan and India materialised, many Sindhi people who decided to stay behind converted to Islam; this is a fact. I am working with two Sindhi people from India at the moment; their forefathers migrated to India during the partition; they are very sensitive about this issue. Basically, their land, culture, nationhood have been decimated rather like the Kurdish people!”
Ahh, but that happened years ago. At the time of the partition the majority was Muslim – otherwise it would have remained with India.
Wijayapala,
“I have to say you and Heshan are doing a wonderful job making me feel less guilty about Sinhala misdeeds against Tamils, ”
My pleasure!
Janaki,
“Most of the Muslims expelled come from Mannar and other non-Jaffna regions. Only about 10,000 were in Jaffna.”
What was the population of Muslims in these northern non-Jaffna districts prior to 1990? Also, were all these areas under the control of LTTE at the time?
“And the army only had nominal control over Jaffna after 1995. The LTTE was very much present in the area. Remember the boycott of 2005 where the LTTE elected Mahinda?”
Are you telling me that a few thousand strong army could not have any control over the LTTE activities in Jaffna? No wonder it took 30 years to defeat a bata clan boys.
“Pakistan allows multiple religions too:”
Are you being sarcastic here?
“And about the “Holy War”.. The Islamic Militants have just about as much do with Islam as the LTTE has to do with the Sri Lankan Tamils. It’s simply a way to gather support for their movement. Islam doesn’t encourage violence and neither does the Tamils. They have not taken up arms because of some religious or societal concept rather because they feel a sense of being “wronged”. With Islamic militants it’s the creation of the state of Israel displacing Palestinians, the occupation of Islamic Holy places in Saudi Arabia, etc. while with Tamils it’s the sense of not being represented fairly in government and a feeling of being persecuted buoyed by the 1983 riots and subsequent ruthlessness of the Sri Lankan army.”
Sense of being “wronged”? Holy war aka Jihad, as Heshan has put it, is justified in Qu’ran and has little to do with present day territorial issues.
Burning_Issue,
“In all seriousness, I think that the Tamils must apologise unreservedly to the Northern Muslims for what LTTE had done to them. There is no excuse whatsoever for their action; it was barbaric and inhumane.”
Didn’t VP apologize for this in 2002?
“Before LTTE, there was no issues whatsoever between the Tamils and Muslims in the Northern Province.”
I doubt this. There were likely competition between the traders of all groups, which perhaps added fuel to the deteriorating ethnic relations.
“Actually I consider myself a non-practicing Christian, far more enlightened than any Sinhala-Buddhist supporter of HE Mahinda Rajapakse”
Its nice to see you have such a high opinion of yourself. What a laugh.
Dear Heshan and others,
Food for thought:
We are reading the written history. Remember, there is a prehistory which many of us don’t want to talk about it.
If any one wants to know the origin of Tamils in this Island find out the origin of Tamils in Tamil Nadu, India.
When Rama came to this Island to get seetha back home the warriors didn’t bother to find boats to cross the water. They built bund (bridge) across paulk straight.
Visit http://www.maps.google.com and see the trace of bund between Dhanuskodi (in Rameswaram) and Thalai mannar jetty for yourself.
Janaki:
“There’s plenty of evidence of Sinhala presence in the North. Kantharodai, Nagadipa and the many other Buddhist archeological remains found in the North and the East.”
The evidence you provided is anecdotal. In any case, if the Sinhalese were pushed out of the North, as you say, where exactly were they pushed to? Polannaruwa? Anuradhapura? But then the question remains, why did the Tamils not push the Sinhalese out of these areas too? Nevertheless, if this was the case, the archaeological evidence for the presence of Sinhalese in Jaffna, etc. should be similar to the evidence found in Polannaruwa/Anuradhapura etc. In particular, the evidence should indicate a long-term settlement. We should be able to find remnants of a Sinhalese-built irrigation system, palaces, etc. in Jaffna. Buddha statues and so-called Tamil village names derived from Sinhala do not do much to establish this fact. It could always be the case that the Buddha statues were brought by monks, and the gold coins (as the link you gave talks about) were brought by traders.
“Islam history is one of great tolerance. Prior to the 20th Century and colonialism, Islamic empires have been bastions of high religious freedom. Muslim empires have since antiquity provided harbor for Jews fleeing persecution in Europe (this is before modern times mind).”
Perhaps you are referring to the Persian Empire. The interesting that is that the Persians were themselves not Muslims originally. They were Zoroastrians originally, who were forcibly converted to Islam. Ironically, the descendants of the Persians – the Iranians – are probably the most progressive Muslims today. Unlike in most other Muslim countries, one can still find Jews and Christians living in Iran.
“Considering when the movement started it seems to be rooted in anti-colonialism. Faced with subjugation by European colonists some misguided Muslims have attempted to create a strict regime of Islam that highly extenuates the differences between them and their invaders.”
I would say the problem is with the Q’uran itself. In the Q’uran, there are stories about Prophet Muhammed sacking such cities as Jerusalem and Medina. Muhammed was an extremely violent individual who plundered, sacked, and raped; he also enjoyed a harem, which consisted of girls as young as 6. When one speaks of Buddha or Jesus, the emphasis is on transformation of the mind to a peaceful state, whereby any rationale for violence is simply negated altogether. This is not so with Muhammed. His “devotion” to God can only be characterized as fanatical. Unfortunately, it is this same tendency that the Muslims of today seem to imbibe: women are inferior to men, and non-Muslims are inferior to Muslims.
ModVoice,
“Didn’t VP apologize for this in 2002?”
His apology obviously did not go down very well with the Muslims and I do not blame them! However, it is encouraging to see both the Tamil and Muslim parties are working together, and any solution endeavoured should be for all the Tamil speaking peoples and not just for the Tamils.
Janaki,
“Ahh, but that happened years ago. At the time of the partition the majority was Muslim – otherwise it would have remained with India.”
First, we need to separate Sindhi region and Sindhi people; I think our arguments are getting mixed up somewhat!
I agree with you that, at the time of partition the Sindhi region was predominately Islam. The Sindhi region is very rich and fertile land and many other groups migrated there. This does not deviate from the fact that, the Sindhi people were traditionally Hindus, and those Hindu Sindhi people who remained in Pakistan converted to Islam. Remember, I went by the percentages of the current Pakistani population; my comment was in relation to this considering that 95% of the population of Pakistan is Muslim!
However, I posed the following question to you and you did not answer:
“One more thing; the total numerical strength of the Muslim population in India is far greater than what is recorded in Pakistan! By contrast, the Hindu population in Pakistan has been declining year-on-year and would you care to explain as to why that is the case?”
Would you mind explaining as to why none Islamic population is Pakistan has been declining year-on-year?
wijayapala:
“Heshan claims that he is more enlightened than Sinhala Buddhists, so the statement that Tamil persons have lived for thousands of years is one of enlightenment.”
You must be the proud product of standardisation. Otherwise you would be aware that “Tamils” refers to a culture, not a single individual.
“his knowledge of history isn’t good. India did not invent federalism after independence; it already had a quasi-federal provincial/presidency system throughout its colonial era. Sri Lanka in contrast had a unitary system after the 1833 Colebrooke-Cameron reforms; contrary to what Heshan believes, the Sinhalese did not create the unitary state but only inherited it and formalized it in later constitutions.”
Both India and Sri Lanka were never united until the colonial period… during the colonial period itself, they were united only for administrative purposes. The Indians recognized this basic point at the time of independence itself, whereas the Southern Sinhalese rejected any need for power-sharing/devolution with the minorities, and have continued do so for 60 consecutive years. At the time of Sri Lankan independence, not only the Tamils but also the Kandyans wanted their own separate territory.
“If there were Tamil Buddhists these were communities that lived alongside Sinhalese not separate mono-ethnic groups.”
I completely agree that Sinhalese were in the northern province living alongside the Tamils and likewise in the other parts of the country. Moreover, both Buddhism and Hinduism were thriving in the country; one has to look at the Easwarm shrines in all corners of the nation and not to mention the most pilgrimed shrine of Kathirkarmam.
“The main factor against such remains as Nagadipa and Kantharodai being of Tamil Buddhist creation is the fact that there is no narrative of a Buddhist Tamil presence in Lanka.”
I am sorry as to what kind of narrations that you are looking for?
“There may have been a Buddhist Tamil community in South India but this is not recorded in Lanka.”
So, are you saying that, just about 28 miles across the Park Strait there were Tamil Buddhists but not in the Northern Province of Sri Lanka?
Please read the following article; I do not agree with some aspects of the article, but very clear about the Tamils Buddhists in the North:
http://www.articlesbase.com/culture-articles/tamil-buddhists-and-terrorism-1326638.html
This will do for now as I am away from home at the moment.
Dear SomeOne:
Thank you for bringing up Ramayana. I am aware of the astonishing archeological evidence that supports its validity. In particular, “Adam’s Bridge” has been identified by NASA satellite photography as the only man-made structure, other than the Great Wall of China, which can be seen from outer space:
http://www.krishna.org/images/Misc/bridge.jpg
Perhaps you can explain in more detail how Ramayana ties into Lanka history, as that is an area of inquiry I am not familiar with.
ModVoice:
“Didn’t VP apologize for this in 2002? ”
Not only did the LTTE apologize, but they also asked the Muslims to come back. Now, I am no LTTE apologetic, but I have yet to see any Sri Lankan President apologize to the Tamils… in particular, the present incumbent could not admit that his “valiant” troops killed a single Tamil intentionally, despite more than 6 months of a high-intensity war where civilians had few escape routes.
BurningIssue/Janaki etc.
““If there were Tamil Buddhists these were communities that lived alongside Sinhalese not separate mono-ethnic groups.”
Simple question: why is there no mention of Tamil Buddhists in Mahavamsa? Surely the monks would have been aware of the fact.
One Ameen Izzadeen wrote the following article; I highlight one except:
“If only we have presented history in the right context, Sri Lanka would have been a peaceful country. It is still not too late. For a start, let’s teach our children that there were Tamil Buddhists in this country. Some ultranationalists are quick to grab artifacts found in the north and say that the discoveries were proof enough to show that Buddhism was once prevalent in every part of the country. Their conclusion, however, was that there were Sinhalese in the north, practising Buddhism. They failed to acknowledge that Tamils in the north were once Buddhists.”
http://federalidea.com/focus/archives/43
Janaki,
“Islam history is one of great tolerance.”
Only for other religions of the “Book” (Judaism and Christianity). The history of Islam in central and south Asia, where it encountered Buddhism and Hinduism, was probably the very antithesis of tolerance.
“The Tamil Buddhist record of Manimekalai seems to exist in a vacuum and in any case documents a South Indian prince and not a Lankan one.”
Have you read Manimekalai? The story of the island of Manipallavam tracks closely with the Mahavamsa legend of the Buddha stopping war between the Naga kings in Lanka. This shows that there probably was a lot of interaction between Sinhala and Tamil Buddhists.
Dear Heshan,
“Both India and Sri Lanka were never united until the colonial period…”
You have proven me correct yet again that your understanding of history needs some work (despite your ability to converse with Jesus).
India and Sri Lanka were not united at the time they were colonized. India was governed as an autocratic federation (ruled by the Viceroy) while Sri Lanka was administered as a unitary state, probably because India was too big to run as a unitary state while Sri Lanka was too small to be carved into a federation.
Both countries had periods when they were united under one ruler, and both countries draw on those very periods as their historical precedent. Why else would the Indian flag have Emperor Asoka’s dharmacakra and its seal have Asoka’s triple-headed lion?
Burning_Issue,
“the two good aspects about the LTTE was that, they crushed the cast system while elevating the women to be as equal as men in many respects.”
Not true on both counts; the LTTE merely swept those two under the rug as it could not alienate Tamil society’s male Vellala base too much. The LTTE’s top leadership was dominated by Karaiyar men, although boys and girls of all castes made excellent cannon fodder.
“Do you agree that, the Sinhalese are primarily Dravidians as much as the Tamils?”
Genetically the Sinhalese are south Indian and are quite separate from the original inhabitants (Veddas). Linguistically, the Sinhala language is not Dravidian although it was influenced by Dravidian languages.
Dear ModVoice,
“Didn’t VP apologize for this in 2002?”
Why would Thalaivar apologize if there was nothing wrong with expelling the Muslims??? Are you disagreeing with The Leader?? (lucky for you and Heshan He is no longer alive)
“No wonder it took 30 years to defeat a bata clan boys.”
I wouldn’t be so proud of this if I were you. Over those 30 long years Sri Lankan Tamil society has been virtually destroyed and now only a shell remains. Yes if the governments over the years had been more competent (and if certain people running away to foreign countries to escape the LTTE’s war did not finance the war) then the LTTE would have been defeated sooner and less damage would have been inflicted against the Tamils.
@BurningIssue:
“Would you mind explaining as to why none Islamic population is Pakistan has been declining year-on-year?”
Maybe because of the unstable government which has led to migration of Hindus out of the country? I’m going to step out of this argument here. I’m not the biggest Islam scholar.. I just wanted to stress positive things about Islam.
@Heshan:
“The evidence you provided is anecdotal.”
We will not know for sure until proper archeological research is done. Maybe the current administration’s keen eye for Buddhist remnants in the North can reveal some more concrete evidence, eh?
“In any case, if the Sinhalese were pushed out of the North, as you say, where exactly were they pushed to? Polannaruwa? Anuradhapura? But then the question remains, why did the Tamils not push the Sinhalese out of these areas too?”
The Sinhalese forces led by Vijayabahu and others managed to keep Magha from invading into these points. They didn’t manage to reconquer the more Northern areas which Magha had taken over though.
“Nevertheless, if this was the case, the archaeological evidence for the presence of Sinhalese in Jaffna, etc. should be similar to the evidence found in Polannaruwa/Anuradhapura etc. In particular, the evidence should indicate a long-term settlement. We should be able to find remnants of a Sinhalese-built irrigation system, palaces, etc. in Jaffna. Buddha statues and so-called Tamil village names derived from Sinhala do not do much to establish this fact. It could always be the case that the Buddha statues were brought by monks, and the gold coins (as the link you gave talks about) were brought by traders.”
During the long existence of the strong Jaffna Tamil kingdom any remnants of earlier inhabitants of the Jaffna region have obviously been converted to meet their needs or destroyed and replaced.
Getting into the Southern Vanni you see the Yodha Wava: http://amazinglanka.com/tanks/yoda-mannar/index.php
and evidence of a tank in Vavuniya: http://amazinglanka.com/tanks/vavunikulama/vavunikulama.php
Finally, I want to stress that I think the Jaffna area is clearly Tamil now and it’s of no consequence who lived there a thousand years ago.
Wijayapala,
“Not true on both counts; the LTTE merely swept those two under the rug as it could not alienate Tamil society’s male Vellala base too much. The LTTE’s top leadership was dominated by Karaiyar men, although boys and girls of all castes made excellent cannon fodder.”
I am afraid you are wrong in your assertions! I have never been a fan of the LTTE; I always stood for a political accommodation for the minorities. However, the platform that the LTTE created would have worked in favour of securing a suitable solution; I am sure that the majority of the Tamils felt likewise!
However, one should critically analyse the Phenomenon of the LTTE and judge them for what they really were; on the other hand, one should look at the socio-political impact it had had on the Tamil population.
Prabhakaran hailed from an ordinary family from Valveddithuri (VVT) though the majority of the people around there lived off the sea; there were people of all walks of live. The point to note here is that, he never experienced the Cast Discrimination at any level but was driven by a strong sense of Tamil Nationalism; this was evident from his activities from the early days. However, as his movement was evolving, he was faced with such social phenomenon that he had to deal with head on. Whether he was a man who would have adhered to the Cast System in normal circumstances or not, I would not know.
Anyhow, he had to deal with the following social taboos in the interest of his organisation and for the achievement of his final goal, which was to establish a separate state for the Tamils ( I cannot say that the separate state for the Tamil speaking people, which would include the Muslim!):
1. Caste
2. Women rights
3. Religion
Out of the above-mentioned three aspects, the religion was not a big issue; Tamils were well accustomed to live side-by-side with all religions; contrary to what people say about the Muslims in North and East, there weren’t any major issues among the communities that one can pick out!
The castes issues VP had to deal with it head on; as I said before, the system was crackling during the early 70s. Unlike in India, one can tell that one is from a certain caste by their name, in Sri Lanka that is not the case. TULF also tackled this issue by fielding a candidate from a lower caste; things were slowly changing during the 70s. So, it was not that difficult an issue for VP to tackle. I went to see the court room drama of the Duriappa murder suspects of those who alleged to had been with VP when he pulled the trigger. Those young men were from various parts of Jaffna district including one from my village.
Though initially, he had his close associates from VVT, this situation was changing during the 90s. Pottu Amman hailed from a group of people that was alleged that it was a subservient group to Vallalar families. There were many senior LTTE personnel from all walks of the society; it certainly broke the ranks of the Caste feudal system; one should recognise this than eschewing it as if to say that everything to do with the LTTE was bad!
I quote from the following website:
http://en.allexperts.com/e/v/ve/velupillai_prabhakaran.htm
“Prabhakaran’s contribution to delegitimization of caste within Sri Lankan Tamil society is instrumental. Tamil society is structured along caste lines, and the upper Vellalar caste strives to maintain its leadership and privileged position by intra marrying, and by discriminating against low-caste members. As a member of relatively lower Karaiyar caste, Prabhakaran’s rise to leadership has meant that LTTE was able to break or transcend the caste structure. But it should be noted in the Karaiyar dominated coastal belt upper Velallar caste hegemony was limited or even non existent. Hence the oft-repeated dogma that he belongs to a lower caste really has no meaning because at no point in his life would he have actually felt caste discrimination. His grandfather was the builder/owner of a local Hindu Siva temple, hence the ritual position of his family was very high within his native town.”
“Nevertheless the LTTE strongly opposes caste, and its leadership consistently has members from all castes, with a strong presence of lower castes. Moreover, LTTE aligns itself with lower or middle caste political forces of Tamil Nadu, such as Dalit Panthers of India (DPI), Pattali Makkal Katchi (PMK), and Marumalarchi Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (MDMK). However, the LTTE does not antagonize the upper castes, and does not use caste as its orientation framework. Rather, it uses Tamil nationalism to delegitimize caste.”
The above-mentioned website has this to say about the women and LTTE:
“Women in traditional Sri Lankan Tamil society were treated as subservient to men, and were not given equal opportunities to pursue non traditional careers. Prabhakaran encouraged women to join the movement and to fight in the battlefield. The LTTE also outlawed dowry. Prabhakaran has consistently stated that equal rights and opportunities should be given to women. However, critics contend that Prabhakaran uses women as weapon folder, women in LTTE are segregated, and do not have any real power.
In his International Women’s Day address, on 8 March 1996, he stated the following about Tamil women: “For the awakening of a nation and the salvation of womanhood, the Thamileelam revolutionary woman has transformed herself into a tigress! Fierce and fiery, she has taken up arms to fight injustice.””
However, I am not sure whether he was a man who genuinely felt about the women’s rights or it was convenient for him to employ women as a fighting force! However, the poignant point is that, he stopped the dowry system and set up a platform where women were treated somewhat equally; I hope that this tread will continue.
This is also a good read if you are interested:
http://sangam.org/Sabaratnam/index.htm
Janaki,
I think that you have made of your mind that, any Buddhist remains found anywhere in Sri Lanka means Sinhala Buddhism; I do not think that nothing will change that mindset!
“The Sinhalese forces led by Vijayabahu and others managed to keep Magha from invading into these points. They didn’t manage to reconquer the more Northern areas which Magha had taken over though.”
The point to note here that, there were no battles during those times between Sinhala and Tamils as such; rather there were battles for territories! You must understand that, there were sections of Tamils and Sinhala fought for either side! The 20th century interpretations of Mahavamsa instilled such divisional mindset that never existed before!
“Both countries had periods when they were united under one ruler, and both countries draw on those very periods as their historical precedent. Why else would the Indian flag have Emperor Asoka’s dharmacakra and its seal have Asoka’s triple-headed lion? ”
This is utter rubbish. Not even Asoka managed to conquer all of India. There were only EMPIRES. Most of these empires did not last long. Most of Indian history consists of India being broken up into territories governed by princes and kings. The very name “India” is a misnomer What precedent do you speak of? Obviously you have never met a real Indian… to this day, Indians affiliate on the basis of language and region, not nationality. And Sri Lanka was never united except in the wet dreams of Mahinda Rajapakse’s clown followers like you.
Janaki:
Thanks for providing the info; however, I must question the credibility of the source. On that same website is found the following: “For almost 3 decades parts of this tank was under Tamil Tiger terrorists…”
Can you provide more credible references that the tank was built by a Sinhalese king?
Burning_Issue,
“However, the platform that the LTTE created would have worked in favour of securing a suitable solution; I am sure that the majority of the Tamils felt likewise!”
If this is true (which I do not accept), then how come you’re not a fan of the LTTE?
“Out of the above-mentioned three aspects, the religion was not a big issue; Tamils were well accustomed to live side-by-side with all religions; contrary to what people say about the Muslims in North and East, there weren’t any major issues among the communities that one can pick out!”
I agree. Interesting that the LTTE created a religion problem where none existed previously.
“Though initially, he had his close associates from VVT, this situation was changing during the 90s. Pottu Amman hailed from a group of people that was alleged that it was a subservient group to Vallalar families. There were many senior LTTE personnel from all walks of the society; it certainly broke the ranks of the Caste feudal system; one should recognise this than eschewing it as if to say that everything to do with the LTTE was bad!”
Having a few non-Karaiyar people in the top rungs is not the same as destroying caste in Tamil society. Prabakaran personally was not casteist but that does not mean that he had removed casteism from the north and east. The LTTE controlled Jaffna for 5 years- why is it that you can find casteism there even today, after all that it has been through?
Wijayapala,
“If this is true (which I do not accept), then how come you’re not a fan of the LTTE?”
Why should there be one rule for the Sinhala and another rule for the Tamils? It was ok to carpet bumb the Winni area; it was ok to kill allegedly 20,000 people; it was ok to round up all the civilians like cattle and deny them even basic dignity all in the name of getting rid of the LTTE ensuring the territorial interiority of Sri Lanka. Though many, like you, did not support all what the MR regime did, but accept it that he did it somehow!
On the same token, why is it then not ok for the Tamils to feel that, however VP had achieved that platform on which the Tamils had a bargaining tool? The same Tamils would not approve of the methods en-route but having arrived at that point, one would hope to use it. The problem was that VP had other ideas!
“I agree. Interesting that the LTTE created a religion problem where none existed previously.”
Yes, it was a shame.
“Having a few non-Karaiyar people in the top rungs is not the same as destroying caste in Tamil society. Prabakaran personally was not casteist but that does not mean that he had removed casteism from the north and east. The LTTE controlled Jaffna for 5 years- why is it that you can find casteism there even today, after all that it has been through?”
I agree that, it will take many more years to completely get rid of the caste mindset, but one should recognise the rapid change during the 30 year LTTE tenure. There were many inter-caste marriages within the LTTE ranks. Considering that in a place like Jaffna, where there were areas in which certain caste people lived, it will take a long time. However, because of the mass evacuations and high security zones, the people are scattered; this may be a good thing in that sense!
An interesting read:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-04-11/the-veil-is-un-islamic/
Dear Professor Heshan,
“Not even Asoka managed to conquer all of India. There were only EMPIRES. Most of these empires did not last long.”
You are correct that they were empires and did not last long. Yet it seems that the Indian polity accepts the Mauryan Empire as a model worthy of emulation (as opposed to the numerous forgotten petty local kingdoms), which explains why Mauryan symbols were adopted. Despite all of India’s diversity, no one had really created a credible separatist movement that mobilized its chosen community. If Indians really identified by region or language first (as many claim to), there would be no India today.
Burning_Issue,
“The problem was that VP had other ideas!”
Therein lies the difference between VP and MR.
“one should recognise the rapid change during the 30 year LTTE tenure. There were many inter-caste marriages within the LTTE ranks.”
The “change” was only relevant to the LTTE itself; it hardly had an impact on the greater Tamil society. In any case you were forced to marry whomever Thalaivar chose, whether you liked him/her or not. Some change (here I am being sarcastic; the topic of the LTTE’s positive aspects merits it)!
Dear Heshan,
“…Perhaps you can explain in more detail how Ramayana ties into Lanka history, as that is an area of inquiry I am not familiar with…”
I don’t want to go deeper into the history. Because, what we are seeing today is a repetition of history itself.
Imagine for a moment, if any one supporting this government is writing our history for our future generation. What do you think these guys will write? I don’t need to tell you. You know what I am talking about.
In my opinion, Americans are reinventing the wheels at NASA. The astrology we know today was written by muni “Valmeehi”. He has calculated the planet positions exactly in today’s time frame.
“…Simple question: why is there no mention of Tamil Buddhists in Mahavamsa? Surely the monks would have been aware of the fact….”
The same question came up in my mind too.
The answer I got was:
1. Buddha couldn’t convince Tamils that Hinduism could be replaced by Buddhism. However, Tamils recognized Buddha a great man. Tamils, from my understanding, gave more prominence place to Thiruvalluvar than they gave to Buddha.
2. At that time when mahawamsa was written, Tamils and Sinhalese were enemies. Mahawamsa mentioned Tamils only when they (Sinhalese) couldn’t hide Tamils from the picture.
Dear SomeOne,
““…Simple question: why is there no mention of Tamil Buddhists in Mahavamsa? Surely the monks would have been aware of the fact….”
The same question came up in my mind too.”
Actually Tamil Buddhists are mentioned in the Mahavamsa. Heshan has never read the Mahavamsa, but God told him falsely that Tamil Buddhists were not mentioned.
Dear Wijayapala,
You may be right. Honestly, I haven’t read the mahawamsa too.
The ground reality is that “Tamil Buddhist” and “Sinhala Hindu” are not common. That is all it matter.
Not only “Mahawamsa” but also “Manimehalai and Silappathikaram” mentions about Tamil Buddhist too.
However, Tamil Buddhism didn’t take off the ground but Sinhala Buddhism is flying high.
The Mahavamsa is quite easily accesible these days.
If you haven’t read it, please try:
http://mahavamsa.org/
It is also available in Tamil:
http://mahavamsa.org/mahavamsa/mahavamsam/
If one wants to critique it then one ought to read it.
“Tamil Buddhism didn’t take off the ground but Sinhala Buddhism is flying high.”
Buddhism was never really the religion of the masses among the Tamils as it was among the Sinhalese. It was mainly the domain of some elites. Infact, in the later stages Buddhists and Jains were actively persecuted in what is now Tamil Nadu by Shaivate kings.
Wijayapala,
“Why would Thalaivar apologize if there was nothing wrong with expelling the Muslims??? Are you disagreeing with The Leader?? (lucky for you and Heshan He is no longer alive)”
I don’t think I have justified the expulsion anywhere.
“why is it that you can find casteism there even today, after all that it has been through?”
Question – is the Sinhala society free of casteism?
Heshan,
“Not only did the LTTE apologize, but they also asked the Muslims to come back. Now, I am no LTTE apologetic, but I have yet to see any Sri Lankan President apologize to the Tamils… in particular, the present incumbent could not admit that his “valiant” troops killed a single Tamil intentionally, despite more than 6 months of a high-intensity war where civilians had few escape routes.”
Mind you, I have yet to see a Sinhalese who does not believe that a “humanitarian rescue mission” was carried out in Vanni. Can you expect anything different from the “king”?
“Despite all of India’s diversity, no one had really created a credible separatist movement that mobilized its chosen community. If Indians really identified by region or language first (as many claim to), there would be no India today.”
Again showing that you have yet to step outside of S. Lanka. What about the Aryan-Dravidian (North-South) India? What about the Naxalites? What about the Sikh uprising? What about Khalistan, Assam, Tripura, Meghalaya, Mizoram, Manipur, Nagaland and Arunachal Pradesh? What about the Tamil Nadu opposition to Hindi imposition?
“Actually Tamil Buddhists are mentioned in the Mahavamsa”
I don’t believe anything you say unless I can personally verify it for myself. In this case, I googled “Tamil Buddhists in Mahavamsa” and came up with nothing.
ModVoice:
“Mind you, I have yet to see a Sinhalese who does not believe that a “humanitarian rescue mission” was carried out in Vanni. Can you expect anything different from the “king”?”
That shows you why a free press is so important. When it came to the LTTE, the Government was able to brainwash Sinhalese in SL.After the war ended, and even today, you hear many Sinhalese saying they are so glad to be free from suicide bombers. In fact, they have a much higher chance of getting run over while crossing one of those poorly constructed intersections , than getting caught to an LTTE bomb. Also, after the CFA, the LTTE tried to refrain from suicide attacks against civilian targets, due to concerns over international opinion. Of course, State media never mentioned this.
Dear ModVoice,
“I don’t think I have justified the expulsion anywhere.”
Au contraire, the below statement reeked of justification:
I presume they would have chosen to leave even if LTTE did not force them to do so instead of having to endure curfews and the bombs…This is what I do not understand from those people who cry of Muslim expulsion
I challenged this by pointing out that if not all Tamils had left Jaffna, then it would have been similarly unlikely for all Muslims to have voluntarily left.
“Question – is the Sinhala society free of casteism?”
No, but Sinhala casteism is not even a fraction of how it is experienced in Tamil society. Caste violence, for example, is largely non-existent.
However, you can argue that the Sinhala Buddhists, unlike Tamils are colossal hypocrites for having any kind of casteism which was condemned by the Buddha.
Dear Professor Heshan,
“What about the Aryan-Dravidian (North-South) India? What about the Naxalites? What about the Sikh uprising? What about Khalistan, Assam, Tripura, Meghalaya, Mizoram, Manipur, Nagaland and Arunachal Pradesh? What about the Tamil Nadu opposition to Hindi imposition?”
None of these have even come close to succeeding. The separatists simply do not have the level of popular support to have any chance of winning.
“I don’t believe anything you say unless I can personally verify it for myself. In this case, I googled “Tamil Buddhists in Mahavamsa” and came up with nothing.”
Me too. I googled “Brain in Heshan’s head” and I also came up with absolutely nothing.
If you need a hint, take a look at Ch. 37 of the Mahavamsa using the very useful link that Suriya provided.
Here is Mahavamsa Chapter 37:
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/mahavamsa/chap037.html
There is no reference to any so-called Tamil Buddhist.
“None of these have even come close to succeeding. The separatists simply do not have the level of popular support to have any chance of winning.”
Hahaha. What an idiot. So Periyar did not enjoy popular support for his anti-Hindi agitation campaign? Muslims were not successful in carving out a Muslim state called Pakistan for themselves? The Kashmiri militants do not enjoy popular support from those in Kashmir? In which government school did you learn logic? ALL of the conflicts I mentioned are based on a huge level of support!
For the benefit of the contributors to this discussion, here is another link to Chapter 37 of the Mahavamsa. Once again, no mention of Tamil Buddhists. :
http://www.vipassana.com/resources/mahavamsa/mhv37.php
Heshan,
“That shows you why a free press is so important. When it came to the LTTE, the Government was able to brainwash Sinhalese in SL.”
It is reasonable to say that for the rural folks but could the same be said of those who have access to internet, where they are exposed to non-governmental media?
Wijayapala,
“I challenged this by pointing out that if not all Tamils had left Jaffna, then it would have been similarly unlikely for all Muslims to have voluntarily left.”
Little misunderstanding here, are we?
I don’t recall saying “all” Muslims have left voluntarily.
“None of these have even come close to succeeding. The separatists simply do not have the level of popular support to have any chance of winning.”
I can think of possibly 3 reasons as to why none of them has come close to succeeding:
1) They don’t have popular support because the Indian political structure accommodates the needs of all the states.
2) They have popular support but they simply don’t have the guts to fight.
3) They have popular support but the politicians are too busy seeking ministerial positions for their offspring, while half the population suffering from poverty is tricked into voting by special rations and color TVs.
Dear Professor Heshan,
“Hahaha. What an idiot.”
It is so blissful to see you use such intellectual language. The sophisticated nuances of such thinking are breathtaking to behold.
“So Periyar did not enjoy popular support for his anti-Hindi agitation campaign? Muslims were not successful in carving out a Muslim state called Pakistan for themselves? The Kashmiri militants do not enjoy popular support from those in Kashmir?”
The only successful separatists above were the Muslims who created Pakistan as India became independent from Britain. You still have not provided an example of successful separatism in India following its independence. Periyar and other Dravidianist leaders did not have enough support to separate Tamil Nadu from India, and no the Kashmiri militants do not enjoy enough popular support to separate from India.
Here is what Ch. 37 says:
After king JETTHA TISSA’s death, his younger brother MAHASENA ruled twenty-seven years as king. And to consecrate him as king, the thera Samghamitta came thither from the further coast, when he heard the time (of Jetthatissa’s death).
The “further coast” is generally interpreted as Chola Nadu. Take a look at this:
When Buddhism was a bridge between
Lanka and Tamil Nadu
http://www.lakehouse.lk/mihintalava/gaya05.htm
“The conversion of Mahasena to the Mahayana school was brought about by Sanghamitta, a monk from Kaveripattinam in Tamil Nadu, who had been invited by Mahasena’s father, King Gothabhaya (253-266 AD) to teach his two sons.”
The article has other excellent material on the contribution of Tamils to Sri Lankan Buddhism, including commentary from Prof. S. Pathmanathan (although I hasten to add that Pathamanathan is not nearly a distinguished scholar as Prof. Heshan).
ModVoice,
“I don’t recall saying “all” Muslims have left voluntarily.”
Then what was the point you were trying to make??
“Also, after the CFA, the LTTE tried to refrain from suicide attacks against civilian targets, due to concerns over international opinion.”
Did the LTTE succeed, Prof. Heshan?
Dear Wijayapala,
“Periyar and other Dravidianist leaders did not have enough support to separate Tamil Nadu from India”
I would say there is considerable anti-Indian sentiment amongst the Tamil Nadians, particularly after the Sri Lankan war. The problem is though that the current “Dravidian” leaders and the so called Tamil saviors are selfish and simply hoodwink the majority of the poverty stricken population into voting them by promising them some free handouts. Even though the support and sentiments are there, it never materializes into successful attempts for separation for that reason.
Also, an armed struggle against a state would need great determination. In the case of Sri Lanka, the 1983 riots acted as catalysts. Although the foundation for Tamil nationalism existed prior to the formation of LTTE, it was not until 1983 that it gained popular support amongst the Tamils. However, the absence of such catalyst in Tamil Nadu is perhaps one of the reasons separatism there did not pick up momentum.
“Then what was the point you were trying to make??”
That the Muslim expulsion was exaggerated and that “many” of them have left voluntarily given the emerging tensed climate, which is perhaps why they have not returned when they had the opportunity to do so. This is hardly a justification.
“The only successful separatists above were the Muslims who created Pakistan as India became independent from Britain.”
Unfortunately it was not a peaceful partition which totally contradicts your earlier gibberish about Mauryan symbolism and the “Indian” desire for unity.
“Periyar and other Dravidianist leaders did not have enough support to separate Tamil Nadu from India,”
The goal of Periyar and was never to separate from India. Besides opposing the imposition of Hindi as a national language on Tamils, he was a social activist who successfully fought against casteism.
“and no the Kashmiri militants do not enjoy enough popular support to separate from India.”
More rubbish… the Kashmiri militants enjoy plenty of support from the predominantly Muslim population of Jammu-Kashmir. They also enjoy plenty of support from Pakistan.
“After king JETTHA TISSA’s death, his younger brother MAHASENA ruled twenty-seven years as king. And to consecrate him as king, the thera Samghamitta came thither from the further coast, when he heard the time (of Jetthatissa’s death).”
This is a totally pathetic argument – a single line in Mahavamsa which mentions a single Buddhist monk who is *possibly* from Tamil Nadu is your only evidence that Mahavamsa talks about Tamil Buddhist settlements in SL?? Maybe they didn’t teach you how to interpret properly in government school, so let me restate my earlier point:
IF there had been a sizable population of Tamil Buddhists in S. Lanka, then the Mahavamsa should mention them. I am not talking about some vague gibberish like “further coast” and a single individual… I am talking about an EXPLICIT REFERENCE to LARGE NUMBERS of Tamil Buddhists INSIDE S. Lanka, a REFERENCE whose validity can be ESTABLISHED beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Heshan, do not quote me on this, but I believe K. Indrapala’s book ” Evolution of an Ethnic Identity: The Tamils in Sri Lanka” also makes mention of Tamil Buddhists in Sri Lanka. I just ordered the book, so we’ll see what it says. Also, in an email to me, Professor Gananath Obeysekere of Princeton, he also confirms that many immigrants who came to Sri Lanka from Kerala and Tamil Nadu could easily have been buddhists since for a while, south India was a center of Buddhism.
Hi Huh,
“.. many immigrants who came to Sri Lanka from Kerala and Tamil Nadu…”
Could you tell me how did they (kerala and Tamil Nadu people) get the visa to come this Lanka Sri please? Where was the embassy at that time?
Thank you.
Was that a serious question?
SomeOne,
Professor Obeysekere, and I think Indrapala, were referring to the period in the centuries in the first millennium and the early second millennium, not any recent time period.
Heshan,
Please note that, Buddhism once had a prominent following along with Jainism in South India; there are archiological evidences in support of this claim. Both Indrapala and Murugsar Gunasigham covered this phase of the history well. Until the Hindu revivalism took shape Buddhism enjoyed much following.
Huh and SomeOne:
I fully agree with you that there may have been large numbers of Tamil Buddhists in India. However, I am more interested in the presence of Tamil Buddhists in Sri Lanka. As I said earlier, the Mahavamsa makes no mention of them, which leads us to two possibilities: (1) the number of Tamil Buddhists in Sri Lanka was rather miniscule so as to be of little consequence percentage-wise or (2) there were no Tamil Buddhists in Sri Lanka, period. Of course I am limiting my argument to the Mahavamsa… on the other hand, the Mahavamsa is probably the most noteworthy source for information on the evolution of Buddhism in the island. I would also point that the Mahavamsa does in fact mention Tamils many times – it mentions them as “demalas.” So it would be rather odd if “Tamil-Buddhist” was not mentioned even once, unless of course it is a case of (2), which is what I am leaning towards.
Burning_Issue,
I agree with you also. Even today there are many Dalits who convert to Buddhism (I don’t know if they are Tamil, however).
Heshan,
The Mahavamsa was written in 6th century AD by Buddhist Monks; it has been suggested recently that, it was written over a period of a long time and many monks contributed towards it. The point to note here is that, both Buddhism and Hinduism were the faiths that the inhabitants of the Island followed paying homage regardless of one was a Tamil or Sinhala. Many noble and merchant families religiously following both faiths. There were Tamil speaking Buddhists in Sri Lanka at one time and they were sacttered across the Island and from the 10th century AD Hinduism and Tamil language established well within North & East as a result of South Indian rule.
It would be hard to fathom that 28 miles across the Park Strait there were Tamil Buddhists and not in Sri Lanka. Dr. M. Gunasingham covered this well.
Burning_Issue,
I understand what you’re trying to say. However, this 28 mile distance between the Palk Strait and Tamil Nadu has been used, by pro-Eelamists, in another rather infamous context: to show that Tamils came to the island first. Now, I would find it rather amusing if a Sinhalese nationalist claimed that Tamil Buddhists were in abundance on the island – due to this 28 mile radius – yet simultaneously Sinhalese came to the island first (despite the 28 mile radius). Now, it is not my intent here to state who came to the island first – I am merely pointing out a rather obvious contradiction. The conclusion is that we should not use the 28 mile radius to prove the presence of Tamil Buddhists, for the same reason we should not use it to prove that Tamils came to the island first. Such an argument may not be faulty on its own terms, however, it is certainly inconclusive.
P.S: By the way, pro-Sinhalese nationalists are prone to using the Mahavamsa as a way to show that Sinhalese came to the island first.
Dear Heshan,
“…P.S: By the way, pro-Sinhalese nationalists are prone to using the Mahavamsa as a way to show that Sinhalese came to the island first…”
I see a fundamental flaw in this statement.
The people came to this island found a language called Sinhala. In other words, Sinhalese people haven’t come to this Island as Sinhalese themselves.
We can figure out (roughly) the age of this language. On the other hand, Tamil is much older language than Sinhala. In other words, Sinhala people could have been Tamils themselves and Buddhists would have been Hindus once.
No wonder why the majorities of this island are suffering from minority complex (and vise versa).
I believe that the science and technology is matured enough to trace our original genes back. This will put an end to all these speculations and guesses.
Dear Heshan,
Correction: Replace the word “minority” with “inferiority”. Thanks
Hello SomeOne:
Actually, there have been a few genetics tests done on Sinhalese and Tamils and they have contradictory results to say the least. Some say the Sinhalese have more in common with Bengalis, while some say they have more in common with Tamils. However, I find the view of K. Indrapala(from a quote from another source) the most interesting:
” the vast majority of people who today speak Sinhalese or Tamil must ultimately be descended from those autochthonous people(of the prehistoric period) of whom we know next to nothing about”(UCHC, I, 1: 96:97).
Dear SomeOne:
I fully agree with you. Common sense alone would imply that Tamils came to the island first. Long before Prince Vijaya was banished from Orissa, Tamil Nadu fishermen would have spotted the Jaffna peninsula on a near daily basis. Of course, this is just my personal opinion… the ultimate proof, as you have pointed out, is the technology now available at our disposal.
Huh:
“” the vast majority of people who today speak Sinhalese or Tamil must ultimately be descended from those autochthonous people(of the prehistoric period) of whom we know next to nothing about”(UCHC, I, 1: 96:97).”
Could these “autochthonous” people possibly be the Rakshashas mentioned in Ramayana?
I have no idea as I have never read Ramayana. However, that is an interesting proposal. In any case, I think the Sinhalese really are as much dravidians as Tamils are, despite what some extremists say.