The Big Lie
Repost This ArticleMarx once said that “in all ideology”… “men and their circumstances appear upside down as in a camera obscura”. Professor Charles P. Sarvan thinks that the Sinhalese are fascists or pro-fascist. Writing in a Colombo paper last Sunday (‘The Sinhalese: Blasé!’ Nov 21st, 2010), and earlier in a British publication called Confluence last May, Sarvan explicitly attempts to portray the Sinhala people as similar to the Germans who supported Nazism. Though the choice of the photograph accompanying last Sunday’s article may not have been the good professor’s personal pick, the piece is aptly illustrated — given the content and argument- with but a single picture, that of Adolf Hitler. Get the picture? (Or as Tarzie Vittachi’s quip went, “get the poto”?)
There may be much wrong with Sinhala society, but if any community on the island bears a resemblance to German society in its compliance with fascism it is surely not the Sinhalese. The editor of the Penguin/Pelican Reader’s Guide to Fascism, a standard text on the subject, Emeritus Professor Walter Laqueur, wrote of the Tamil Tigers in ‘The New Terrorism’, that “in respect of its ruthlessness and fanaticism,[he] could find only one parallel: the fascist movements of Europe in the 1920s and 30s”. John Burns, the Pulitzer Prize winning New York Times journalist described Prabhakaran as “the Pol Pot of South Asia”. Several months ago, The Economist referred to the LTTE as “almost classically fascist”. Robert D Kaplan refers to the “Tamil Tigers, among the post World War II era’s most ruthless and bloodthirsty organisations”.
Each one of these characterisations may be contested, but the cumulative conclusion is unavoidable, namely that the Tigers were the closest that the island came to a fascist, fascistic or fascistoid movement, and in so far as the preponderant tendency within Tamil society, both in Sri Lanka and the Diaspora was to support or excuse them, then it is that society that most closely approximated German society at the time it fell under the sway of the Nazis. As bad as Colombo administrations can get, I have yet to read of a single one described by any analyst of international repute as “among the post World War II era’s most ruthless and bloody” or as paralleled only by the European fascist movements of the 1920s and 30s”!
It certainly wasn’t the Sinhalese who supported this monstrosity, and made excuses for it even when it murdered Nehru’s grandson or M. Tiruchelvam’s Harvard educated son. It is not the Sinhalese who displayed such collective delusion and blind hubris as to think that a movement which murdered a former Indian Prime Minister, several Sri Lankan leaders and hijacked a Chinese ship killing several Chinese sailors, would not have to pay a terrible price at the end of the day. It was however the Sinhalese who defeated this fascist movement. It was also the Sinhalese who defeated a Southern equivalent, Wijeweera. If Professor Sarvan wishes to preach to any collective which resembles Germany marching in the wake of a fascist movement, he should look much closer home.
None of this means though, that the Tamil people should be treated oppressively, unequally, unjustly or ungenerously. In the first place there were those who courageously dissented in different ways against the pro-fascist loyalties of the bulk of Tamil society. While some, like K. Pathmanabha, Rajani Tiranagama and Kethesh Loganathan have been murdered by the Tigers, others are still around, ranging from Devananda, Siddharthan, Sritharan, Karuna and Pillaiyan to Prof Ratnajeevan Hoole and Dr Mutukrishna Sarvanandan. More importantly, as Judge Christie Weeramantry, one the most distinguished and enlightened Sri Lankans of our time, wrote in a two part piece as the war ended, the Tamil people should be treated not in the unwise manner that the Germans were after World War 1, but in the humane, generous and sagacious manner that they were after WW2 (the Marshall Plan etc). There was no question however, of who was playing the defeated Germans who had supported fascism and lost.
Whatever is wrong with Sri Lankan society today, it is neither a matter of ‘fascism’ nor the lesser offense of Mahinda Rajapakse being a Sinhala replay of Prabhakaran. No serious analyst can equate the Tigers, still less Nazism, with the Lankan State or southern society at any level: system or process, formation or project. Rajapakse hasn’t declared the Tamils a disease that has vitiated the majority race, as did Hitler in Mein Kampf, torched the local Reichstag, shattered the opposition through lethal violence and murdered his political opponents (as Prabhakaran did his). The silly syllogism seems to go like this: “Adolf Hitler was a moustachioed leader who assumed power through the electoral path, Mahinda is a moustachioed elected leader, ergo Mahinda is an Adolf Hitler (or is Hitlerian)”. It is accompanied by a sister syllogism: “the Germans supported Hitler, the Sinhalese support Mahinda whom we have deemed a Hitler, ergo the Sinhalese are akin to the Germans who supported Hitler fascism”.
The main negatives and problems in Sri Lanka today reside in the domains of political culture and discourse. Here too, aesthetic aversion cannot substitute for comparative evaluation and comprehension of content. Historicism, antiquarianism and quasi-monarchic references in the political culture and dominant ideology did not originate with the Tigers or the war: merely recall JR Jayewardene’s ascent to the Pattirippuwa and his claim to be the latest in an unbroken line of Sinhala monarchs. Premadasa received the credentials of ambassadors while seated on a gold painted mock throne gifted by a well wisher, and at the time of his assassination a giant ‘mock up’ (or ‘cut out)’ of his, created by the State Engineering Corporation (not at his suggestion) towered over the Galle Face Hotel. This strain in Southern political culture metastasised with the war of secession, the ethnic aggression of the Tigers and the abdication by the more pluralist or (neo) liberal Sri Lankan leaders of the duty to defeat them. I didn’t judge the role and content of the Premadasa presidency by its aesthetic form and style, and not having done so, I haven’t become sufficiently hypocritical in the intervening years to judge Mahinda Rajapakse’s primarily by his sense of political theatre and taste in stage props.
One of the downsides of waging an ethnic war to dismember a country and carve out a separate state, is that it automatically rekindles historical memories or (if I may bow in memory of Prof Leslie Gunawardena) lends itself to the reactivation of ‘constructed’ historical memories.
If the bulk of the Tamil people had supported the PLOTE or the EPRLF instead of the LTTE, they would have had a resonance in the South and the fight-back by State and society would not have had the aspect of a Sinhala backlash. But this was not to be. When Tamil society had several chances- with options such as the PLOTE and EPRLF or personalities like Neelan Tiruchelvam, with exits such as the Indo-Lanka accord, with guarantors like the IPKF, with opportunities like the dialogues with Premadasa and Chandrika – it chose to stick with Prabhakaran and the Tigers, i.e. the most purely ultranationalist and ethno-terrorist option.
The character of the Tigers, their politico-military behaviour and the discourse of the Tigers and the pro-Tiger Diaspora reactivated memories and fears of ancient struggles inscribed in the ancient Sinhala chronicles and buried deep in the collective southern psyche. The backlash was therefore steeped in historicism and archaicism. The thing about wars is that they have an afterlife; their effects last a long time. Once a historicist mindset is awakened, it takes hold, settles in, at least for a period. Simply put, if someone chooses to wage a war which reminds the Sinhalese or any other community anywhere in the world for that matter, of ancient challenges and threats, even the modern response is garbed in ancient robes and references. Such a throwback, a journey on a time machine, is not automatically and instantly reversible. Imagined continuities take time to subside.
Don’t be so naïve, Heshan. The US constitution applied only to whites. It didn’t apply to the Natives, slaves, women, Mexicans,etc. The US also gained its power by destroying the Native Indians and stealing their land, invading and annexing huge portions of Mexico, using slave labour etc. The US constitution wasn’t fully implemented til the 1960s. The US took centuries of independence to reach that point. The same is applicable for most of western Europe. SL became an independent nation just over 60 years ago.
You can continue to bleat on about Singapore if you like, but if you can’t see the difference between a city with an immigrant-based population of under 5 million, that never existed as a nation until 60 years ago, and a rural nation almost a hundred times its size, with a population four times larger, with a conflicted history more than 2,500 years old, that has come out of a 30 year war you’re either willfully ignorant or just plain stupid. In fact if you can’t see that Singapore is geographically, demographically, culturally and numerically different from almost every other Asian nation, we are wasting our time with this discussion. These differences aren’t because of LKY — they’re part of the conditions that made it possible for him to impose his autocratic rule.
LKY held Singapore together by suppressing ethnicity and many religious and civic freedoms, just as Tito did in Jugoslavia and the commies did in the USSR. The only liberal part of Singapore’s administration was its economy. And the only reason that was liberal was because Singapore’s only resource was business.
There’s very little in common between Singapore and SL. Malaysia is a realistic comparison. If you can set aside your clearly un-Christian hatred of Muslims.
What none of you foreigners get is that SL doesn’t want to be like Singapore. Perhaps Colombo does, but Colombo is 5% of the population. You can’t provide solutions to a country you don’t even understand by comparing it to a country you are largely ignorant about.
Heshan, from everything you’ve written here and on other forums, I’m guessing you’re around 16 or 17. From what you’ve said I’d say you’ve never been to Singapore or ever spoken to anyone who’s lived there. I’d say the same about your African knowledge. You need to see and experience the things you’re talking about rather than trust in google. You also need to find solutions, not convenient facts to back a thesis. It’s great that you’re interested in current events and what’s happening in SL at a time when the average teenager is more caught up with Justin Biber’s hairstyle, but you need to understand what you’re talking about, and what people are saying to you, rather than try to preach your worldview just because you have a net connection. [Edited out]. The world isn’t an exam paper where you can copy/paste one formula to multiple situations.
Nice try Blacker, but your examples of Native Americans/women, etc. are irrelevant. The Constitution has always been the strong point of the USA. No one really cares anymore that the land was taken from the Native Americans; this was at a time when so-called “human rights” was not around. This was a time when Kandyan women went around bare-chested, Kandyan brothers shared their wives, and so-called Kandyan “punishment” included tying someone between two oxen and tearing them up. The whole world was pretty uncivilized, so your attempt to portray the USA as an evil colonial empire fails miserably. What matters is NOW. A black man is President of the USA – can a Tamil even run for President in S. Lanka?
Your knowledge of Singapore is dismal indeed. Almost half the population is composed of foreigners. Singapore was also ruled by the British, who imported Tamils into the civil service for high positions in the civil service (sound familiar?). When Lee Kuan Yew became President, he intentionally chose NOT to discriminate against any particular ethnic group. This is why even though Chinese form the majority of the population, all the schools are English-medium. You really ought to consider where Singapore would be if the medium of instruction in schools were Chinese… you boast about it having gotten rich off trade. You have to compete in the global market to get rich off trade. This means having an excellent grasp of several languages, particularly English . Someone who studies in just the Sinhala medium CANNOT compete in the global marketplace. This is why MOST of the Asian foreign students who study outside of their country don’t study business – they study something like engineering or medicine. They are HANDICAPPED in that they can’t communicate effectively outside of their mother tongue.
Another reason why Singapore is successful, besides English-medium schools, is that its SECULAR. Your little paradise is hardly secular.
Once again, whatever Lee Kuan Yew did, you have failed to prove that he has NOT been successful. It may not be the optimum example of democracy, but it is a SUCCESS… last time I checked, Singapore was not number 3 on the list of nations with the highest number of disappearances. Journalists don’t disappear in the middle of the night. There is no PTA/Emergency regulations etc. I can already imagine your pathetic rebuttal, “but but, SL had a WAR!”, guess what, the war is over, but there is no democracy in SL, so your logic fails miserably (as usual).
That’s great that you’re comparing SL to a miserable Islamo-fascist failure like Malaysia. Individuals such as yourself who think SL ought to model itself after an Islamic nation, ought to really think again. SL is a BUDDHIST theocracy, in case you forgot to look out the window. Luckily, Buddhism is inherently peaceful, and most Buddhists don’t feel the urge to engage in global jihad. Unfortunately, thanks to Dharmapala’s “Buddhist revival” and the racist underpinnings of the “Mahavamsa”, the word “Sinhala” has become synonymous with the word “Buddhist”, and the teachings of actual Buddhism have become thoroughly corrupted, which is why 100K people died in a war that is thoroughly at odds with true Buddhist doctrine. But there is still no comparison to Islam, where the treatment of non-Muslims by Muslims is made very clear in the Q’uran. In my experience, Sinhala-Buddhists, even the extremist ones, are X10000 more peaceful than the average Muslims – for Muslims, their religion comes first – while I have met individuals who share a similar mindset, I have never met an entire group of people, other than Muslims, who have such a mindset.
Its obvious you don’t understand the Sinhalese mindset, which is why you try to compare SL to a backwards Muslim country. No Sinhalese would ever compare SL to Malaysia (or any other Muslim country). Sinhalese are actually quite liberal, even more so than Tamils and most of my Indian acquaintances. The only reason why this liberal tendency hasn’t spread in SL, is due to economics and the like. This is why its so important to have a liberal government. The gap between the rich and the poor needs to be closed via new job creation, higher education needs to become available to everyone, the monks need to stop interfering in politics, the obsession with all things military needs to be stopped at all costs, etc.
These are not impossible things to do, but like with any activity, leadership is very important, and that is where SL has gone wrong for the past 60 years.
Prof Heshan
“That’s great that you’re comparing SL to a miserable Islamo-fascist failure like Malaysia.”
Kindly explain how Malaysia is a failure when it has a per capita GDP of $14,000 (compared to $4,000 in neighboring secular Indonesia).
If Malaysia is such a failure, why do so many Tamils live there?
This is what LKY says about Malaysia:
“I think if the Tunku had kept us together, what we did in Singapore, had Malaysia accepted a multiracial base for their society, much of what we’ve achieved in Singapore would be achieved in Malaysia. Now we have a very polarised Malaysia — Malays, Chinese and Indians in separate schools, living separate lives and not really getting on with one another. You read them. That’s bad for us as close neighbours. We made quite sure whatever your race, language or religion, you are an equal citizen and we’ll drum that into the people and I think our Chinese understand and today we have an integrated society. We will not as a majority squeeze the minority because once we’re by ourselves, the Chinese become the majority. Using racial politics was the “easy wayâ€, claiming that if he had used this method in Singapore to gain the majority vote, its society would eventually be destroyed. Because if you play it that way, if you have dissension, if you chose the easy way to Muslim votes and switch to racial politics, this society is finished. The easiest way to get majority vote is — vote for me, we’re Chinese, they’re Indians, they’re Malays. Our society will be ripped apart. If you do not have a cohesive society, you cannot make progress,â€
He also said “The regret is there’s such a narrow base to build this enormous edifice so I’ve got to tell the next generation, please do not take for granted what’s been built. If you forget that this is a small island which we are built upon, and reach a 100-storey high tower block and may go up to 150 (storeys) if you are wise. But if you believe that it’s permanent, it will come tumbling down and you will never get a second chance. I believe they (the youth) have come to believe that this (racial harmony) is a natural state of affairs, and they can take liberties with it. I know this is never so. We (Singapore government) have crafted a set of very intricate rules — no housing blocks shall have more than a percentage of so many Chinese, Indians, Malays. All are thoroughly mixed. Your neighbours are Indians, Malays, you go to the same shopping malls, the same schools, same playing fields, you go up and down the same lifts — we cannot allow segregation. We’ve got here, we’ve become cohesive, keep it that way. We’ve not used Chinese as a majority language because it will split the population. If you want to keep your Malay, or your Chinese, or your Tamil, Urdu or whatever, do that as a second language, not equal to your first language. It is up to you, how high a standard you want to achieve,â€
“Malaysia took the different line; Malaysians saw it as a Malay country, all others are lodgers, ‘orang tumpangan’, and they the Bumiputeras, sons of the soil, run the show. So the Sultans, the Chief Justice and judges, generals, police commissioner, the whole hierarchy is Malay,â€
http://www.malaysiatoday.com/content.php/179-Lee-Kuan-Yew-Malaysia-could-have-enjoyed-Singapore-s-multi-racial-system-if-not-for-the-break-up
—————–
Pretty much what I said. Muslim nations are not progressive because Islamic conservatism always takes a central role. In Malaysia, as LKY as pointed out, non-Muslims are considered third-class. He does not say why, but it should be apparent to any outside observer.
—
In the Sahih Bukhari, however, stoning is mandated by Mohammed at least 34 times.[11][12] According to the Hanbali jurist Ibn Qudamah, “Muslim jurists are unanimous on the fact that stoning to death is a specified punishment for the married adulterer and adulteress. The punishment is recorded in number of traditions and the practice of Muhammad stands as an authentic source supporting it. This is the view held by all Companions, Successors and other Muslim scholars with the exception of Kharijites.”[13]
Based on this, in several Muslim countries, such as, United Arab Emirates, Afghanistan, Iran, Nigeria and Saudi Arabia, adultery is punishable by stoning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning
Makes Mervyn Silva look like an amateur, by comparison! By the way, I have mentioned stoning in the UAE and Saudi Arabia, because they have very high GDP’s – comparable to that of any Western nation. Consequently, one would expect a relatively high standard of living. Normally, this is the case, but you see, in the above, the conflict between modern values and medieval Islamic values.
Heshan, I think you make some great points. Still, I want to point out that Singapore is successful because it is a city-state. Colombo if it governed itself without having to deal with the rest of the island would do just as well — there would be no village bumpkins like Mahinda Rajapakse and Premadasa, the Colombo people are more educated and liberal, etc.
[cit]that is where SL has gone wrong for the past 60 years.[/cit]
D. S. and Dudley Senanayake were pretty good leaders I think.
Prof Heshan, thank you for the lecture but you haven’t shown how Malaysia is a failure nor answered why so many minorities still live there.
Jonathon Miller,
If by city-state you’re referring primarily to size, I can think of quite a few smaller nations in South America and Africa that don’t quite fit the bill, e.g. have not been nearly as successful, While size is definitely a factor, it is not necessarily the defining element. Lee Kuan Yew explains this very well:
“To understand Singapore,” he said, “you’ve got to start off with an improbable story: It should not exist.” It is a nation with almost no natural resources, without a common culture, a fractured mix of Chinese, Malays and Indians, relying on its wits to stay afloat and prosper.
“We have survived so far, 42 years,” he said. “Will we survive for another 42? It depends upon world conditions. It doesn’t depend on us alone.”
This sense of vulnerability is Lee’s answer to all his critics, to those who say his country is too tightly controlled, that it leashes the press, suppresses free speech, curtails democracy, tramples on dissidents and stunts entrepreneurship and creativity in its citizens.
“The answer lies in our genesis,” he said. “To survive, we have to do these things. And although what you see today – the superstructure of a modern city – the base is a very narrow one and could easily disintegrate.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/29/world/asia/29iht-lee.1.7301669.html
Moral of the story: small nations are not invisible. They have their own set of unique problems. In the case of Singapore, being in the shadow of two likely superpowers – India and China – places it in an awkward position. Had the Japanese war machine rolled on unabated in WWII, rest assured that Singapore would not exist today. I would say then, that while its small size may have helped the process along, the success of Singapore is in no small part due to its own unique way of addressing various challenges that have popped up over time.
JonathanMiller,
“there would be no village bumpkins like Mahinda Rajapakse and Premadasa, the Colombo people are more educated and liberal, etc.”
Premadasa was from Colombo. He was not a “village bumpkin.”
Consider that both Mahinda and Premadasa did not create problems so much than had to clean up the messes that their predecessors left. JR Jayawardene was your image of the educated and sophisticated Colombo antithesis to “village bumpkin,” yet it was he who started the civil war.
“D. S. and Dudley Senanayake were pretty good leaders I think.”
One of my older relatives traces all the problems to D.S. Senanayake who started the “family friendly” trend in SL politics by making his son Dudley the heir apparent to the UNP over his senior SWRD Bandaranaike. The latter quit the UNP and cooked up Sinhala nationalism as an election gimmick in the 1950s to come to power. The rest is history.
Personally I rate Dudley as the best head of government solely on the grounds that he didn’t make any mistakes like the other leaders did, but my friends point out that he did not accomplish very much either. Dudley belongs to the “honest but ineffective” category of post-independence leaders. JR Jayawardene pioneered “corrupt and ineffective” which Chandrika proudly continued. Premadasa was a bit of an anomaly, being the first leader from a non-elite background, and I would characterize him as “corrupt but effective.”
Consider that both Mahinda and Premadasa did not create problems so much than had to clean up the messes that their predecessors left.
MR has created a problem that future generations will severely pay for: that is, amending the term limits on the Presidency. Now the civil service will officially be a family-run institution. It will be the most lucrative job on the island, considering the number of portfolios held by the President, and his ability to hand out portfolios with ease to friends and family members. As I explained to Mr.Blacker, absolute power corrupts; with this much power in hand, the President has little incentive to do his job properly. We know that elections in SL are hardly free and fair; nevertheless, term limits would have been at least a partial remedy towards preventing a dictatorship.
JR Jayawardene was your image of the educated and sophisticated Colombo antithesis to “village bumpkin,†yet it was he who started the civil war.
JR was a racist, but it was not he who introduced swabasha, standardisation, nationalization of private enterprises, colonization schemes, etc.
JR Jayawardene pioneered “corrupt and ineffectiveâ€
JR was not corrupt. Visit his home if you need proof.
A city-state is a city that’s also a state, you [Edited out]. It’s not a size comparison and there are none in Africa or South America as you think
[Edited out]
Other than that I’m glad you finally realise how different Singapore was from SL and how much more similar Malaysia is.
Also I’m glad you brought up the fact that Americans don’t care about what was done to the native Americans. And it’s refreshing to hear that humans didn’t matter a hundred years ago lol. Over here the Sinhalese don’t beat themselves up over Black July either or the civilians killed in the north. Time to move on, eh? Nobody cares after all.
Prof Heshan
“JR was a racist, but it was not he who introduced swabasha, standardisation, nationalization of private enterprises, colonization schemes, etc.”
Since you are supporting JR, whom you recognise as a racist, does that make you a racist as well? It was JR, not SWRD, who made the first call for Sinhala Only in 1944.
JR most certainly introduced colonisation, which was not a feature of any SLFP regime.
JR also introduced the Executive Presidency which the current generation is paying for.
Once again, Blacker, your inability to see beyond precise definitions is glaringly apparent. Anyway, for your reference:
Non-sovereign city-states
Some cities or urban areas, while not sovereign states, may nevertheless enjoy such a high degree of autonomy that they function as “city-states” within the context of the sovereign state that they belong to.
[edit] Cities that are component states of federations
Some cities or metropolitan areas are component states of federations. Examples include:
* Argentina – Buenos Aires (formally known in English as the “Autonomous City of Buenos Aires” (coterminous with the Argentine Federal Capital))
* Australia – Canberra (Located at the northern end of the Australian Capital Territory)
* Austrian state of Vienna
* Belgian capital Brussels
* Brazil – Brasília (coterminous with the Brazilian Federal District)
* Ethiopian chartered cities (astedader akababiwach) of Addis Ababa and Dire Dawa
* German states of Berlin, Hamburg and, though consisting of two separate cities, Bremen
* Russian cities of Moscow and Saint Petersburg
* Swiss cantons of Geneva and Basel-Stadt.
[edit] Federally-administered cities
A federal country may also have one or more cities that are federally administered:
* India – Delhi and Chandigarh (Union Territories)
* Malaysia – Kuala Lumpur, Putrajaya and Labuan (Federal Territories)
* Mexico – Mexico City (being the Mexican Federal District)
* Nigeria – Abuja, Federal Capital Territory
* Pakistan – Islamabad (being the Islamabad Capital Territory)
* United States – Washington, D.C.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City-state
Yep, I googled it again – I don’t claim to be an encyclopedia of walking knowledge. I’ve also had the unfortunate “pleasure” of having to reference things, for many years now – you know, I couldn’t just aim the bazooka at person A, and claim the work was my own – the type of learning,which, I dare say, forms the bulk of your education.
I’ve observed the behavior of Muslims in London, France, the USA, SL, India,and Canada to know that SL will never resemble an Islamic nation.
Where did I say Americans don’t care about Native Americans? There are actually quite a few amenities provided to Native Americans, by virtue of federal law. But the greatest thing is the acknowledgment of past wrongs – a debate which is yet to take place in SL.
Wijayapala:
I am not a fan of JR, except for his liberal economic policy. JR did not introduce the first colonization schemes, D.S Senanayake did that:
It was recognition also of his position in public life as a rising star of the island’s political leadership”. (A Pictorial Biog raphy). In 1932 Senanayake wrote: “Colonization of the dry zone is the only way out: the distribution of population in the various parts of the country is such that immigration from the over-populous zones to less crowded areas will soon become not a matter of choice, but a grim necessity”. This vision prompted D.S. to launch the Minneriya Scheme which marked the beginning of the rehabilitation of the Polonnaruwa district. He rehabilitated many other tanks built by ancient Sinhala Kings for colonisation schemes.
http://www.sinhalaya.com/news/english/wmview.php?ArtID=1041 (Please note, this is a 100% patriotic site that is free of interference by South Indian invaders and foreign conspiracies to destabilize the island)
JR didn’t have any interest in colonization – his primary goal was to reform Sri Lanka’s economy. It was he who said Sri Lanka would become the next Singapore, in 1980.
If JR made a call for Sinhala-only in 1944, that is irrelevant. It was S.W.R.D who made Sinhala-only a law . It is the law that has impact. It is also S.W.R.D who refused to go give in to the monks, although, to be fair, he eventually paid the price for this.
Lol, none of the above are city states — unless of course you’re ignorant enough to think that it’s referring to a federal state. Municipal laws or federal laws don’t make a city a separate state
Even Hongkong and Shanghai are not city states. Autonomous cities exist for economic reasons, specifically investment and taxation benefits; it’s nothing to do with politics and/or ethnicity, which is the context we’re discussing SL, Malaysia, and Singapore in. [Edited out] we’re not allowed to hurt their delicate feelings by questioning their intelligence and/or sanity, but this comedy is reaching the level of farce
“Where did I say Americans don’t care about Native Americans?”
I believe these were your exact words, Heashan
: “No one really cares anymore that the land was taken from the Native Americans; this was at a time when so-called “human rights” was not around.”
“I’ve also had the unfortunate “pleasure” of having to reference things, for many years now”
The only accurate part of that sentence is the word “unfortunate”
But seriously, Heshan, I earlier told you that you need to understand the problem rather than try and win some petty one-upmanship. [Edited out]
I’m glad you approve of the fact that it has taken hundreds of years for the white Americans to acknowledge the crimes against humanity they committed when they massacred the Native Americans and enslaved the Negroes; because I think in a couple of decades, when everything has calmed down, the Sinhalese might too. But we’re not gonna carry out any sort of witch-hunt to suit bitter people in other countries who are largely irrelevant to SL. These awkward things in history will be consigned to the history books and life will go on. As it should, don’t you think? Don’t like it? Have a little cry
Oh, but you’re already doing that, right?
Again, Blacker, the Wikipedia article never claimed those places were *officially* city-states but the resemblance is close enough that they were included in the same article as city-states. In other words, one can pretty much talk about them in virtually the same context as city-states.
[Edited out]
No one really cares anymore that the land was taken from the Native Americans
Indeed, Blacker, the land and the people are two different things. I only mentioned the land. Unless you believe land equals people. [Edited out]
I’m glad you approve of the fact that it has taken hundreds of years for the white Americans to acknowledge the crimes against humanity they committed when they massacred the Native Americans and enslaved the Negroes;
I’m glad that you’re only counterargument to a 20-21st century war fought with relatively modern weapons, is to draw parallels to the 19th century Custer, horse-bound and ready for battle with his Mauser Zig-Zig, against an enemy armed mostly with tomahawks and bow-and-arrow. I suppose none of the political/technological developments between the centuries has any meaning for you – then again, your Defense Secretary did claim its okay to bomb hospitals and shoot those who surrender. Speaking of slavery, let’s ignore the fact that it was practiced by every great civilization. Once again, single out the powerful, wealthy West for scrutiny!
because I think in a couple of decades, when everything has calmed down, the Sinhalese might too. But we’re not gonna carry out any sort of witch-hunt to suit bitter people in other countries who are largely irrelevant to SL.
No one forgets, Blacker. Not the Blacks, nor the Jews, and not the Tamils. If SL ever has a liberal government, the revelations will come out into the open.
Heshan
Your dream of having a liberal government in Sri Lanka came one step closer, I think with the passing of a new party constitution for the UNP! Looks like that your dream is hijacked by Sajith boy! The people of Sri Lanka don’t want a liberal government that will investigate how the LTTE leaders were shot, or what they were doing when they were shot. The only thing that the Sinhalese will never forget is that all the big [Edited out] wigs were caught like the fish in a net and paid the price for terrorizing the nation for 30 years.
Some of the Tamils and non-Tamils who were waiting to see Sri Lanka sinking, could not believe this and now they can’t forget it. You can now only hope against hope that Ranil would keep his leadership in the party-with the blessings of the government!- and people would one day vote for him before he dies naturally, to dig the past ‘atrocities’ of the Sri Lankan Army!
Prof Heshan
“This vision prompted D.S. to launch the Minneriya Scheme which marked the beginning of the rehabilitation of the Polonnaruwa district. He rehabilitated many other tanks built by ancient Sinhala Kings for colonisation schemes.”
Last time I checked, Polonnaruwa was not part of Tamil Eelam. So how did D.S. colonise Tamil areas???
“JR didn’t have any interest in colonization”
Here’s what your favorite journalist T. Sabaratnam had to say (please note that this is a site totally dedicated to Eelam and 100% free from Sinhala Buddhist Political Ideology and other Inane Heshan Imaginations):
“Jayewardene made this disclosure to justify his Sinhala border settlement scheme and the militarization of Sinhala border villages through his Home Guards plan. He told the country on 20 January that the government would not accept that certain parts of the island were traditional homelands of any community. He announced that there would be settlements along the lines of the island’s overall ethnic proportions.
“Jayawardene was referring to a new program under which it was planned to settle 30,000 Sinhalese from the South in the Vanni dry zone area of the Northern Province stretching from Mannar to Mullaitivu in 1985. Each family would be given half acre of land and money to build a house. Each settlement would be given 25 machine guns and 200 rifles to protect themselves.
“Jayewardene in his statement to Parliament on 20 February justified the Sinhala settlements by saying, “If we don’t occupy the border, the border will come to us.”
“In an interview to Far Eastern Economic Review correspondent Rodney Tasker, Gamini Dissanayake explained the military significance of the Sinhala settlements. He told Tasked the inspiration for the settlements came from Israeli’s West Bank policy.”
http://www.sangam.org/articles/view2/print.php?uid=693
Friend Wijayapala:
Thanks for posting details of the master-plan to colonize invader lands with 100% Sons of The Soil. According to Mr. Blacker, such plans never existed – in fact, even the word “colonization” does not exist (except when describing invasion of the lands of 100% peaceful colored ppl by pale-skinned Western invaders). Please give more details of this master plan. How many of the “30,000″ Sons of The Soil were actually settled from “Vanni to Mullaitivu”… last time I checked, there were no Sinhalese in Mullaitivu or Wanni (except the Army of Lions, who are engaged in such patriotic activities as putting up flags and robbing banks). Did they (30,000) all reach Nibbana? Please enlighten us further with your wisdom. May the Triple Gem guide you.
Prof Heshan
Thank you for admitting that you were hopelessly mistaken and blind about “Liberal Economy” JR. It would be nice if you took some responsibility for supporting his anti-Tamil policies.
“Thanks for posting details of the master-plan to colonize invader lands with 100% Sons of The Soil.”
Your very welcome. I am only too happy to light the lamp of Knowledge to drive away the darkness of Ignorance in your head.
“How many of the “30,000? Sons of The Soil were actually settled from “Vanni to Mullaitivu””
You might want to take a look at the UTHR’s website, since your pro-LTTE friends themselves have not written much on this.
“In other words, one can pretty much talk about them in virtually the same context as city-states.”
“Indeed, Blacker, the land and the people are two different things. I only mentioned the land. Unless you believe land equals people.”
In the context of the land supporting the people. However, if you think land is unimportant, why all the fuss about this alleged colonisation of “Tamil lands” in the North. It’s only land, right?
Indeed, I do
“I’m glad that you’re only counterargument to a 20-21st century war fought with relatively modern weapons, is to draw parallels to the 19th century Custer”
I never mentioned Custer, but now that you have, I think the man met a just end, just as Prabakharan did. However, I’ve given you numerous examples of similar human rights violations by the US against foreigners throughout the 20th and 21st centuries, as well as its own citizens. I earlier pointed out to you the fact that the US didn’t fully implement its constitution until 60 years ago — for centuries of independence they ignored it when it suited them. In fact they are ignoring it today still.
You hilariously seem to think that western civilisation is older than the east (your silly comment about Kandyan women) — the fact is, Asia had advanced languages and cosmopolitan cities while the white man was living in mud hunts and grunting. The difference is that west then decided to colonise and enslave most of Asia and Africa, basically stalling any natural progress. You say that the US was also colonised, and it was, but it gained independence hundreds of years ago, and in spite of these centuries of freedom, it only became a true democratic nation a mere 60 years ago. I have no doubt that SL one day too will achieve that point, and I sincerely hope that we won’t take as long as the US did, or that we won’t have to enslave or wipe out any other peoples before we do so.
“No one forgets, Blacker. Not the Blacks, nor the Jews, and not the Tamils.”
No one need forget anything, Heshan, but neither do we need to dwell in the past forever. It’s time to move on. Oh, and for the record, I think it’s OK to bomb hospitals if they’re being used as cover for combatants — after all, it’s just a building, and not much different to land — and as you say, land is unimportant, right? 
Just the Americans, eh?
I still believe the whole “Sinhalese colonisation of Tamil land” story is a load of bollocks. There is no such thing as “Tamil land” — there is just government land and private property. As long as no one is being kicked off private property, I think it’s cool. One of the great pillars that support this nonsensical colonisation tale is the claim that the government is settling people in areas, and that it would be OK if it was just natural movement of individuals who were settling in the North. The problem is that Thesawalamai Law makes it almost impossible for non-natives of the North to buy land and property as individuals, therefore the only land available is state land which has been made available to these non-Tamils over the years. Many people see Thesawalamai Law as unfair because it discriminates against people who have no link to the North — in other words, non-Tamils. If this law were applicable throughout SL, it would prevent natural movement and settlement, and more importantly in this discussion, prevent Jaffna Tamils from buying land and property outside the North. Thesawalamai Law seems to be getting some attention in the media of late, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there is soon a concerted call for its abolishment.
David Blacker,
“The problem is that Thesawalamai Law makes it almost impossible for non-natives of the North to buy land and property as individuals, therefore the only land available is state land which has been made available to these non-Tamils over the years.”
I’m rather surprised to see you invoke this bit of Sinhala racist mythology. Can you provide an example of a non-Tamil barred from purchasing land in Jaffna due to Thesavalamai?
My understanding has been that few people of any community have purchased land in Jaffna because it is so expensive. The high cost of land pushed many Jaffna Tamils, particularly Vellalas to seek their fortunes in the Wanni or the east, but the government itself stepped in during the 50s to settle Tamils from the overcrowded islands in the Wanni as well.
Wijayapala, I’m not sure what you mean by “racist mythology”; Thesawalamai Law is not a myth — check it out for yourself. Personally, I’ve nothing against the law, but then neither am I against the GoSL handing out state land in the North to people from the south. My point to Heshan is that you cannot have liberal government and ethnic equality while advocating race-based laws; nor can you accuse the GoSL of colonization while making it difficult for individuals who wish to naturally settle where they wish. Personally, I would like to see a SL free from ethnic identity within its laws and constitution — in other words a rule of law rather than ethnicity or class or whatever. I’d also like to see SL free from race politics. For this, changes must come from all ethnicities; not just the Sinhalese.
Thesawalamai Law does not bar any non-Tamil from buying land in the North, Wijayapala, and I didn’t say it did, but it gives priority of purchase to inhabitants of the Jaffna District and Northern Province over outsiders; and of course, 90% of these inhabitants are Tamil. It’s arguable that the law isn’t designed to keep outsiders out, but the result is thus. CV Vivekanandan wrote a piece claiming to debunk the idea that the law prevents Sinhalese from buying land in Jaffna, but in fact his article actually shows in detail how difficult it is.
DB,
“Thesawalamai Law is not a myth”
Thesavalamai itself is not a myth- but the myth that it has actually been used to prevent non-Tamils from purchasing land is a myth.
“CV Vivekanandan wrote a piece claiming to debunk the idea that the law prevents Sinhalese from buying land in Jaffna”
I read it on transcurrents, and I posed the same question there as I did to you: what is the name of anyone who was restricted from purchasing land because of Thesavalamai?
Is this a law that has actually been enforced?
You might want to take a look at the UTHR’s website, since your pro-LTTE friends themselves have not written much on this.
I did not know UTHR was run by my pro-LTTE friends. Thanks for the information. However, after an exhaustive search on above website (while seated in the supreme lotus position, of, next to the Lion Flag, in front of canvas painting of HE Mahinda Rajapakse), I could not find any mention of the 30,000. Please enlighten me, as the maya is rather overwhelming.
Prof Heshan
It sounds like you have serious doubts that colonisation had ever taken place! I already showed how D.S. Senanayake had not colonised the N-E, and now you’re claiming that JR Jayawardene did not do that either. So then when was N-E “colonised” by Sinhalese??
“I did not know UTHR was run by my pro-LTTE friends.”
I didn’t say that- for someone who is so pro-West, you have a lot to learn about the English language!
You earlier claimed that the UTHR is unreliable, when the truth is that they have published much more on colonisation THAN your pro-LTTE sources that you normally rely on. Were you able to understand that?
The discussion is whether SL can be compared to a city state.
The problem, Blacker, is that you’re thinking of SL as one big congruous entity. If it were broken down into, say, an arbitrary number of federally-administered provinces, certain provinces might well resemble city-states, with a few differences.
Even if it could be, and we were to follow the governing pattern of Singapore (suppression of ethnic and religious identity, jailing of opposition and trade union leaders, suspension of democracy, etc) you will not be pleased with that.
Clarification: You mean the suppression of majoritarian politics and nationalist agitation – where elections wouldn’t be determined by [Edited out] monks. Where minorities would basically have no reason to agitate. Where corruption would basically be nil. I have no issue with any of that. Implementing it, however, is another matter altogether. The fact that it would take an Armageddon-like catastrophe to implement any of those things in SL speaks volumes about the condition of the latter.
On one hand, you claim that Asian states need not be held to the same standards as western ones, while on the other you insist on labeling countries like Malaysia and SL according to western standards (Islamo-fascist, etc — btw I do like your Bush-like tendency to invent words).
Once again, I have no issue with SL going its own way. In fact, if the Parliament were abolished, the Constitution annulled, and the President declared himself king, I would have a lot less to say. It’s the sham democracy that I take issue with. The farcical pretend-democracy that exists only to obtain IMF loans, and validate the UN member status of SL. Singapore doesn’t do any of these things. As I’ve said numerous times now, Singapore doesn’t pretend to be a Western-style democracy. There is nothing wrong with doing things your own way. Just make you sure you’re self-sufficient (which SL is certainly).
One one hand, you claim that human rights and democracy and liberal government must be upheld, but on the other hand you’re prepared to ignore violations of this creed in countries that you admire.
This argument has beaten to death. You yourself have claimed that war crimes investigations will never occur in SL. On the other hand, you posted a long list of US military personnel accused of, and convicted for numerous crimes in Iraq. There’s no double standard… it’s quite apparent to any third-party observer who is more likely to be punished where.
However, I’ve given you numerous examples of similar human rights violations by the US against foreigners throughout the 20th and 21st centuries, as well as its own citizens.
Your 21st century examples don’t measure up. Your 20th century examples are irrelevant.
I earlier pointed out to you the fact that the US didn’t fully implement its constitution until 60 years ago — for centuries of independence they ignored it when it suited them. In fact they are ignoring it today still.
The Constitution only applies to citizens. Slaves were never considered citizens. So your claim that the Constitution was “violated” is actually incorrect.
the fact is, Asia had advanced languages and cosmopolitan cities while the white man was living in mud hunts and grunting. The difference is that west then decided to colonise and enslave most of Asia and Africa, basically stalling any natural progress.
The fact is that when the Europeans came to the island, most people were engaged in fishing or paddy cultivation. There was a rigid class/caste system in place that prevented upward social mobility. The fact is that this class/caste system existed for thousands of years, and it was only after the Europeans came and laid the foundations for capitalism that the social structure in place became more fluid.
I still believe the whole “Sinhalese colonisation of Tamil land” story is a load of bollocks.
Of course – you fought for an organization that fought to suppress such claims, at the barrel of a gun. Now that the “clearance phase” of the suppression has ended, the actual “implementation phase” is beginning – whole-scale State-sponsored colonization in the backdrop of the total militarization of the North and East.
“The problem, Blacker, is that you’re thinking of SL as one big congruous entity. If it were broken down into, say, an arbitrary number of federally-administered provinces, certain provinces might well resemble city-states, with a few differences.
Many ‘ifs’ there, Heshan. A solution that necessitates a problem being transformed into a totally new entity before the solution can be applied is not a solution. It’s like me asking you what 2+2 equals, and you telling me that since the answer is 6, one of the 2s must be multiplied by the other 2 and become 4, so that the problem then becomes 2+4 and fits your solution
I am not against some form of federalism, myself, but [it would be] [Edited out] idiotic to think that federation in SL will not devolve along provincial borders. None of SL’s provinces will equate city states, except perhaps in population numbers. They will all (with perhaps the exception of the Western, and that’s still debatable) remain agrarian. Pointing out solutions that worked in a tiny city state as applicable in a nation that is not, merely demonstrates your lack of insight into either nation.
<em"You mean the suppression of majoritarian politics and nationalist agitation blah blah"
It’s just jargon, Heshan. What you call majoritarian politics will be replaced by separatist politics, nationalist agitation in Singapore becomes imperialist agitation in SL, and so on. It’s all the same bullshit. The point is (whatever excuse apologists may make) democracy doesn’t exist in Singapore. If you think that is the route SL should take, good for you, but I’m not sure what your point is then about MR’s administration lol. Perhaps, it would take n Armageddon-like catastrophe for you implement it, but then you seem unable to distinguish what comprises a city state, something that a 10-year-old could manage. In SL, as I said before, it will take some years and some hard work and good leadership. Whatever we become, it will not be Singapore the state; though it’s not impossible that some of our cities could become like Singapore the city.
“It’s the sham democracy that I take issue with. The farcical pretend-democracy that exists only to obtain IMF loans, and validate the UN member status of SL.”
Well, perhaps then you guys in the west should stop insisting that we be like you in order to obtain loans, etc. It is because western democracy seems to be the only democracy acceptable to you (except to the countries you give free passes to) that small nations such as SL are forced to pretend. As you know, within Asia we don’t have to because we are not required to. Hopefully one day SL won’t have to depend on western loans, or any loans for that matter, and can forge its own identity. It’s like having a controlling parent who won’t feed a child unless the kid behaves, and then accusing the child of not standing up for himself. Once the child no longer needs the parent, he will be himself. Speed the day.
“On the other hand, you posted a long list of US military personnel accused of, and convicted for numerous crimes in Iraq.”
Actually, I provided you with a very short list of American personnel who were given slaps on the wrist for mass murder, institutionalized rape, child abuse, and torture. You could provide me with just one instance of a US soldier actually getting a life sentence. This is in the entire 20th and 21st centuries. You also provided me with instances of SL soldiers receiving the death penalty for murder. Isn’t it clear where justice is being served and where it is not? I don’t see there ever being large-scale investigations of war crimes in SL, but we will continue to convict those found guilty of crimes, as we have done in the past.
“Your 21st century examples don’t measure up. Your 20th century examples are irrelevant.”
Very imperious of you, Heshan, but your declarations don’t have any standing. If you feel that the US demoting the general commanding Abu Ghraib by one rank, giving laughably light sentences to murderers and rapists, and allowing pedophiles and torturers to walk off scot free, doesn’t measure up, I must ask you what they don’t measure up to? What exactly do you have to do in the US to be be punished — machine-gun women and children into ditches? Oh, but wait, Calley and Medina did that, no? One was acquitted, the other was pardoned — but as you say, that’s irrelevant. How convenient. Personally, I think the Channel 4 clip is irrelevant too. There, simple, isn’t it?
“The Constitution only applies to citizens. Slaves were never considered citizens. So your claim that the Constitution was “violated” is actually incorrect.”
Lol I told you before that you had a unique grasp of law. The constitution and laws of the USA cover everyone within its jurisdiction — in other words US citizens wherever they are, and everyone and everything within US territory. I suppose you think it’s OK to murder and rape illegal Mexican immigrants because they’re not US citizens? I told you before that the US Supreme court has ruled torture and detention without trial illegal regardless of whoever it’s done to, Heshan.
Why do you insist on proving your stupidity beyond any doubt whatsoever?
“The fact is that when the Europeans came to the island, most people were engaged in fishing or paddy cultivation.”
And most people in the UK (who were not off murdering and plundering the heathen) were farming. What’s your point? My point is that European colonization of Asia prevented those nations developing in their own individual ways, the way for example Japan and China did. Colonization stalled certain aspects of development while accelerating others — in the short term, it wasn’t a bad thing, but in the long term it was — so things like universal equality, political progressiveness, etc, needed to catch up. As I told you, it took the USA centuries to naturally develop these traits. We are not asking for centuries, but a few decades isn’t unreasonable, and if it takes a little longer, you’ll have to be patient.
“There was a rigid class/caste system in place that prevented upward social mobility. The fact is that this class/caste system existed for thousands of years, and it was only after the Europeans came and laid the foundations for capitalism that the social structure in place became more fluid.”
There was a class/caste system in the UK and other colonial powers as well, which was just as rigid. All that happened was that our class/caste system was replaced by theirs. When the British class system was then removed, our own came back into place, whereas if there had been no colonization, our class/caste system would gradually have faded away as it mostly has in the west. Now it’ll take longer, because we’re starting from scratch.
“Now that the “clearance phase” of the suppression has ended, the actual “implementation phase” is beginning – whole-scale State-sponsored colonization in the backdrop of the total militarization blah blah…”
Got any evidence of this blah blah?
Wijayapala, I cannot give you a link to a specific instance of a Sinhalese being unable to buy a piece of land that was for sale, any more than you can provide Santa with a photograph of child soldiers in combat. However, I’m sure you can see how easy it is for Tamils in Jaffna to prevent land being sold to Sinhalese by evoking this law (which frankly has no purpose other than to keep Jaffna land under Tamil ownership). Do read Sivalingam vs Suntheralingam for some of the nuances of the law, and also this discussion on the law (ignore the post and read the comments thread).
corrCction:which SL is certainly not
Friend Wijayapala:
It is a well-known fact that D.S. Senanayake was responsible for massive colonization in the East:
“Even before independence D.S. Senanayake as Minister of Agriculture and Land used state-sponsored Sinhala colonization as an instrument of state policy to change the demography of the Northeast provinces. Gal Oya (originally called Paddippalai Aru in Tamil) Allai-Kanthalai and Yan Oya in the Trincomalee district and Maduru Oya in the Batticaloa district were the major colonization schemes launched by D.S. Senanayake and his successors.
In 1949 the government under D.S. Senanayake enacted Act No. 51 under which the Gal Oya Development Board was established. It was officially inaugurated by Prime Minister D.S. Senanayake on August 28, 1949 at Ingniyakala. A dam was built at Ingniyakala to divert the Gal Oya river waters. This water reservoir was appropriately named Senanayake Samudra – the biggest man made tank in the whole of Ceylon. Gal Oya Development Board spent a staggering US 67.2 million dollars to build the infrastructure and settle the colonists.
All these schemes could easily be described as the single biggest ‘accomplishment’ of Sinhalese governments since independence in 1948 meant to reduce the Thamil majority in the East.”
http://www.sangam.org/2010/09/Colonizing_North.php?uid=4052
Please see, the NAMES of the colonization schemes started by D.S. Senanayake are well-known: Gal Oya, Yan Oya, and Maduru Oya.
Can you give me the names of the colonization schemes started by J.R. Jayawardene? Do not refer me to random sources, give me the names directly, and I can verify for myself. If you cannot give me the names of the colonization schemes started by J.R., then you really have no case.
Friend Wijayapala:
I have done some research and come up with the following:
“All wars are fought for land…The plan for settlement of people in Yan Oya and Malwathu Oya basins was worked out before the communal riots of 1983. Indeed the keenest minds in the Mahaveli, some of whom are holding top international positions were the architects of this plan. My role was that of an executor… We conceived and implemented a plan which we thought would secure the territorial integrity of Sri Lanka for a long time. We moved a large group of 45,000 land hungry (Sinhala) peasants into the Batticaloa and Polonnaruwa districts of Maduru Oya delta. The second step was to make a similar human settlement in the Yan Oya basin. The third step was going to be a settlement of a number of people, opposed to Eelam, on the banks of the Malwathu Oya. By settling the (Sinhala) people in the Maduru Oya we were seeking to have in the Batticaloa zone a mass of persons opposed to a separate state…Yan Oya if settled by non separatists (Sinhala people) would have increased the population by about another 50,000. It would completely secure Trincomalee from the rebels…”
Sinhala Mahaveli Ministry Official, Herman Gunaratne in the Sri Lanka Sunday Times, 26th of August 1990
http://www.tamilcanadian.com/article/443
Apparently, Gal Oya was begun by D.S. while Maduru Oya and Yan Oya were begun by J.R. However, what is the evidence that J.R. himself was behind the colonization? It seems as if the “keenest minds in the Mahaveli Ministry” were the architects of the plan.
@ David Blacker
David…are you really a Burgher or a closet Sinhalese?
What the Blackers and the Wijepala’s don’t seem to understand is that the only thing Buddhists, Christians, Hindus and Muslims in Sri Lanka have in common is, eating rice…drinking tea and to some extent watching cricket. Although when it comes to cricket, most hindus support India…most muslims support Pakistan and Bangladesh and some English speaking people of all 4 faiths support England, Australia, South Africa etc. The US army in Afghanistan use hand held lie detectors to question Afghans in the area after a bomb goes off. Unlike the practice in Sri Lanka where all the young Tamil males were rounded up and taken into custody. If David and Wijepala could get their hands on some of those hand held lie detectors…they could go around the country and see for themselves that people don’t really mean what they say. Just ask a random selection of Sinhala Buddhists using of course a lie detector, if they belive in the zero casualties story etc? [Edited out] One person I would love to question would be Dr.Dayarn…Wow…that would be an eye opener…
Ah, it’s refreshing to finally meet someone with a pseudonym that suits his comments
So, Mr Bean, what does it matter what my race is, or is it only possible for you to accept or dismiss an argument on a racial basis? FYI I’m half Tamil — does that make my POV more acceptable to you?
Your asinine generalisations about various ethnic groups actually are identical to what I hear from Sinhalese supremacists — Tamils are not Sri Lankan because they support India at cricket. Brilliant analysis there, Dunce
[Edited out.]
Oh, Dunce, could you also tell me about the model of lie detector used by the US at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay? I’m very interested in that one. Thanks in advance.
Dear Presidunce Bean,
“@ David Blacker
David…are you really a Burgher or a closet Sinhalese?”
What an extraordinary inquiry. Are you saying that all Burghers have to think like you?
“What the Blackers and the Wijepala’s don’t seem to understand is that the only thing Buddhists, Christians, Hindus and Muslims in Sri Lanka have in common is, eating rice…drinking tea and to some extent watching cricket.”
I don’t seem to understand the point you’re trying to make. Are you suggesting that the country be divided along religious lines? In which case, what do Buddhists, Christians, Hindus and Muslims have in common in England, Australia, South Africa or any of these other countries that you seem to admire so greatly?
And what on earth does any of this have to do with any of the subjects at hand? There are so many on this thread – it really takes some doing to come up with something that is irrelevant to all them.
“The US army in Afghanistan use hand held lie detectors to question Afghans in the area after a bomb goes off. Unlike the practice in Sri Lanka where all the young Tamil males were rounded up and taken into custody.”
Before you drop in again with some random nonsense, perhaps you read this:
“The United States continues to arrest and detain hundreds of Afghans without proper judicial process. NATO countries continue to hand over detainees to the Afghan intelligence agency, National Directorate for Security (NDS), which has record of perpetrating human rights violations, with impunity.”
http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?id=ENGNAU2010111819587&lang=e
PresiDunce Bean,
Why do you generalize things and polarize a discussion by bringing in religion? And how do you know that Hindus mostly support India or Buddhists support Srilanka in cricket? When Srilanka won the 1996 cricket world cup, most of South Asia supported Srilanka against the Aussies in the final. And I am sure a big chunk of people outside of India in S. Asia supported India during the 2003 World Cup final. Even for the 2007 final, most Indians wanted SL to beat Australia. Going by your logic, Muralitharan shouldn’t have got any support from Sri lankans at all. But from what I have seen Murali seems to get more applause everytime he gets a wicket than say an Aravinda De Silva hits a four. Even Rajapakse was present for his last game. We can go on and on and on…..My point is, why do you polarize the debate so much by bringing religious dimensions to sport to drive your point?
Heshan,
Why do you bring in religion as well? British left India with the Hindu majority and in the last 60 years, we are probably the most backward country in the world for a country of that size. Poverty, corruption, pollution, lack of infrastructure, lack of education etc etc is what India is left with today. India’s predominantly Hindu leaders didn’t achieve anything significant for their country. Or let us say, they have got a long long way to go! India has a tolerant society from a religious/social/linguistic point, but in terms of other factors ranks far behind most Buddhist countries like Thailand or Srilanka or even Myanmar. The number of folks dying daily in India due to poverty and hunger would be more than what you saw in the final phases of war last year in SL. It is that bad. As I say all these, please be aware that I am a Hindu myself and from India.
From my understanding, it seems that bridging the gap between the 2 sides in Sri lanka is proving to be very tough even after the end of the war. What Tamil folks should be doing is ENGAGE with the predominantly Sinhala/Buddhist majority. It may not be easy, but you need to talk, keep engaged, highlight your concerns but show appreciation when they listen. TravellingAcademic mentioned in his previous post very brilliantly as to how to engage. Instead of showing tiger flags, show a white flag. Posting polarized opinions wouldn’t help as much as talking and engaging.
Krish
“British left India with the Hindu majority and in the last 60 years, we are probably the most backward country in the world for a country of that size.”
Although your intent is admirable, Heshan eagerly laps up anything criticizing non-Christians as a whole. I am actually puzzled why Heshan said that Hindus would make good leaders; perhaps they fall under the “superior to Buddhists/Muslims but completely inferior to Christians” category.
There is no doubt that India could never have come as far as it has if it had remained under colonial rule. The British would have never allowed any Indian to rise above a certain ceiling. The fact that there hasn’t been a major famine in India since independence (compared to the horrors that took place under colonial rule) speaks for itself (although Heshan won’t necessarily understand…).
Mr. Bean
You say: “Unlike the practice in Sri Lanka where all the young Tamil males were rounded up and taken into custody”
I wonder why you spcifically mention the Tamil youths here. If you were living during the 88′-89′ JVP led campaign of terrorism, you would have known that a ‘similar’ practice was adopted by the Sri Lankan Forces against the Sinhalese youth! The only difference was that all the rounded up youth would be shot and the bodies dumped into the crater! “For one Army death,ten of your families” was the principle practised by the force.
Correction:…..by the Forces.
What the Blackers and the Wijepala’s don’t seem to understand is that the only thing Buddhists, Christians, Hindus and Muslims in Sri Lanka have in common is, eating rice…drinking tea and to some extent watching cricket.
This is true to a certain extent. Had the British left the country in the hands of Christians or Hindus, it would have been much easier to find a peaceful political solution to the ethnic conflict. I doubt there would have been a war, period. Had they left power in the hands of the Muslims, God forbid the outcome… NATO would be fighting militants in Batticaloa (Battistan?). Of course there are moderates on the Buddhist end too – the problem is they get drowned out by extremists in the Maha Sangha, NFF, JVP, etc. The problem further compounds itself when the extremists wield significant political clout. This is the story of S. Lanka. Anyway, the point is we should acknowledge differences. Each community has its own way of approaching the issue at hand.
A solution that necessitates a problem being transformed into a totally new entity before the solution can be applied is not a solution.
You’re missing the larger picture. The problem with SL is that all power is essentially at the Center. There is clearly an extreme power imbalance at play. Usually when looking for “solutions”, you don’t go with the extreme one. It makes sense to talk about *unofficial* city-states only in the context of some degree of political/economic autonomy, where federalism fits the bill nicely.
What you call majoritarian politics will be replaced by separatist politics, nationalist agitation in Singapore becomes imperialist agitation in SL, and so on. It’s all the same bullshit. The point is (whatever excuse apologists may make) democracy doesn’t exist in Singapore.
Democracy does indeed exist in Singapore, albeit with a few provisions. On the other hand, the absence of Western-type democracy need not entail State-sponsored terror and draconian laws such at the PTA and Emergency Regulations.
If you think that is the route SL should take, good for you, but I’m not sure what your point is then about MR’s administration lol. Perhaps, it would take n Armageddon-like catastrophe for you implement it, but then you seem unable to distinguish what comprises a city state, something that a 10-year-old could manage.
Your definitions are rigid, mine are fluid. In the real world, the solution/implementation is almost always fluid. There is no such thing as a pure capitalist entity, or a pure democracy or a pure city-state .
In SL, as I said before, it will take some years and some hard work and good leadership.
And you have absolutely no blueprint, other than wild speculation, for seeing that become a reality. Your simplistic *vision* encompasses a so-called “strongman” miraculously tackling the complexities of 21st century geopolitics without any perceived Western interference. Your “model”, if any, for this happens to be the Islamo-facist state of Malaysia. Meanwhile, you explicitly reject the far superior Singapore model, which has a proven track record of success, on the basis of it being a “city-state”, which is actually a ridiculous assumption. The same kind of federalism practiced in Switzerland is practiced in the USA. Similar political models can be implemented anywhere, irrespective of size. The autonomous aspect of city-states is no exception. Once again:
Non-sovereign city-states
Some cities or urban areas, while not sovereign states, may nevertheless enjoy such a high degree of autonomy that they function as “city-states” within the context of the sovereign state that they belong to.
[edit] Cities that are component states of federations
Some cities or metropolitan areas are component states of federations. Examples include:
* Argentina – Buenos Aires (formally known in English as the “Autonomous City of Buenos Aires” (coterminous with the Argentine Federal Capital))
* Australia – Canberra (Located at the northern end of the Australian Capital Territory)
* Austrian state of Vienna
* Belgian capital Brussels
* Brazil – Brasília (coterminous with the Brazilian Federal District)
* Ethiopian chartered cities (astedader akababiwach) of Addis Ababa and Dire Dawa
* German states of Berlin, Hamburg and, though consisting of two separate cities, Bremen
* Russian cities of Moscow and Saint Petersburg
* Swiss cantons of Geneva and Basel-Stadt.
* United Arab Emirates – Abu Dhabi, Dubai and the five other independently-ruled emirates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City-state
“You’re missing the larger picture. The problem
Of the ten capital cities you’ve mentioned
Brussels — this one you got right.
so there’s neither democracy or devolution there. You can call
Canton of Geneva –
It is now the
but a canton (province) made up of the
The only autonomous cities in a central government system
If you say so, but then what’s your problem with
“There is no value
with SL is that all power is essentially at the Center. There is
clearly an extreme power imbalance at play. Usually when looking
for “solutions”, you don’t go with the extreme one. It makes sense
to talk about *unofficial* city-states only in the context of some
degree of political/economic autonomy, where federalism fits the
bill nicely.” Well, federalism
doesn’t fit the bill because the
population of SL has voted against it. Which is why I told you that
you’re attempting to modify the problem to suit your solution,
rather than the other way about. If you wish to present a plan of
devolution that follows a form of federalism that may be acceptable
to the people of SL (they have largely rejected the US model),
let’s hear it — I’m sure it’ll be quite entertaining. I hope by
now that you’ve understood that your waltz up the garden path of
the city state (a rather desperate attempt to explain how the
Singaporean model can be relevant to SL) has painted you into a
corner. It’s now clearer than ever that city-states have nothing to
do with SL. Your Wiki list of autonomous cities is quite
interesting — you just googled but didn’t read the actual article,
right? Lol. OK, first of all, let me explain something to you that
you should have learned in school (government or otherwise) — just
because a city is the capital of a nation does not make it
autonomous. Nor does having its own municipal regulations make it
autonomous. Nor does it being administered by the central
government rather than the provincial one (such as Washington DC)
make it autonomous. If you’re attempting to show that autonomous
cities can be the result of federalism, you need to show me a list
of cities that became autonomous
because of devolution, and not because
they are capital cities or because they’ve been removed from the
devolutionary process
in your extensive research, Prof Heshan, only
one is autonomous. Is one out of ten a passing grade
in your school? OK, here we go: Buenos
Aires — autonomous from the Province of Buenos
Aires, but not from Argentina. Like Washington DC, it is the
capital of its country, but situated in a separately administered
province
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buenos_Aires#Government_and_politics)
Canberra — “is not an independent
city. Its local government is that of the ACT, and although
Canberra has no city council of its own, the ACT Government
administrates much as a city council would”
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_city)
Vienna — nothing autonomous beyond
usual urban special laws. “It must be noted, however, that Austrian
federalism is largely theoretical as the states are granted
comparatively few actual legislative powers.”
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Austria#Federalism_and_state_responsibilities)
I suspect it was luck. Brasília –
capital of Brazil, and like Addis
Ababa, capital of Ethiopia, the only reason that it
can be considered autonomous is because it is coterminous with the
province. Berlin — not an autonomous
city, merely the capital of Germany. West Berlin was autonomous
because it was situated in East Germany, and was administered by
the occupying western Allies. Moscow
– not an autonomous city, just the capital of Russia, which has
only one real autonomous area — the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in
the far east
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast)
Abu Dhabi & Dubai — “The UAE
is a federation of seven absolute monarchies”
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_Emirates#Government_and_politics)
the cities autonomous if you like, but in reality each of the seven
emirates is ruled as a personal fiefdom by its emir. Government is
as devolved as it was in the USSR’s republics lol. Now let’s look
at the non-capital cities you call “autonomous”: Dire
Dawa — not an autonomous city, just the main city
in a federal state/province/republic
(http://www.dire-dawa.gov.et/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8&Itemid=9&lang=en).
Hamburg — not an autonomous city, but
one of the federal states of Germany, like Brasilia, its only
qualification for being a city-state (as in federal state, not
nation) is the fact that it is coterminous with the State of
Hamburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg).
Bremen — not an autonomous city,
though like West Berlin, it could have been considered one while it
was administered by the US military as an enclave within the
British occupation zone. Bremen then joined West Germany in 1949 as
its smallest federal state. Like Hamburg, its only qualification
for the city/state title is the fact that it is coterminous with
the State of Hamburg. St Petersburg –
not an autonomous city, but a federally-administered city (like
Washington DC), directly under the jurisdiction of the federal
government.
ceased to exist as an independent city in 1948
capital of the Republic & Canton of Geneva, which is
basically a province. Basel-Stadt –
is not even a city
municipalities of Bettingen and Riehen, and the city of Basel
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basel-Stadt). So that’s zero out of
six from the non-capital cities. My goodness, what an academic you
are, Dr Heshan. I think you need to get a basic grasp of
definitions, Prof. You say your definitions are fluid; in fact they
are so fluid as to have no form whatsoever, and can basically be
anything you conveniently want them to be — in other words, you’re
wrong
are the Chinese cities of Hongkong and Macau. “Democracy
does indeed exist in Singapore, albeit with a few provisions. On
the other hand, the absence of Western-type democracy need not
entail State-sponsored terror and draconian laws such at the PTA
and Emergency Regulations.” As I told you before,
Heshan, it’s a subjective view. If you read any of the dissident
literature coming out of Singapore (blogs are the most accessible),
you’ll see that they object to the jailing of opposition leaders
and trade unionists and many other of your “few provisions”. The
PTA and the Emergency Regulations are a result of war. When has
Singapore fought a war? In spite of the fact that Singapore has
been at peace for 50 years, they have suspended certain democratic
practices. If you’re OK with them doing that, why are you objecting
to SL doing so? “There is no such thing as a pure
capitalist entity, or a pure democracy or a pure city-state
.”
SL not being a “pure” democracy? “Your simplistic
*vision* encompasses a so-called “strongman” miraculously tackling
the complexities of 21st century geopolitics without any perceived
Western interference.” You mean like LKY in Singapore?
“Your “model”, if any, for this happens to be the
Islamo-facist state of Malaysia. Meanwhile, you explicitly reject
the far superior Singapore model, which has a proven track record
of success, on the basis of it being a “city-state”, which is
actually a ridiculous assumption.” First of all, I
didn’t say SL should be modeled on Malaysia. Try not to lie –
Jesus won’t like it. I said that the result of the SL system could
possibly be a Malaysia, and that I thought that wasn’t a bad thing.
I don’t see anything wrong with being a Singapore either, but I
don’t see it happening anymore than I see a dog becoming a horse –
there’s nothing wrong with either, they both do what they do, but
they’re not the same. You say that the Singaporean model has a
proven track record; where has this
record been proved anywhere other than in Singapore? It’s like you
telling me that your belt has a proven track record of successfully
holding up your trousers and then insisting that it will hold up
mine as well. Belts work, we know, but your belt may not work for
me. What is ridiculous is that you’re unable to admit the huge
geographic, demographic, cultural, and population differences
between Singapore and SL; it is this absurdity that forces you to
first change SL so that a Singapore-type solution can be applied.
Which is why I said that you’re forced to modify the problem to fit
an incorrect solution. “You’re assuming the Singapore
model works for Singapore only because its a city-state. In fact,
if you look at the close derivatives of city-states in the above
Wikipedia list, its clear that the Singapore model has nothing to
do with Singapore being a city-state, other than streamlining the
process down for administrative purposes.” This is where
you’re fundamentally wrong. The reason the Singapore model
may not work is because Singapore is
so completely different from SL — the fact that its geography and
demography make it a city/state is just the obvious indication. I’m
not saying a modified Singaporean system cannot work, but it has to
be heavily modified — you cannot merely dismiss the cultural and
historical baggage that SL has; whereas Singapore never had any of
this — Singapore as a nation was created when the Brits left. What
you’re too blinkered by your bigotry to see is that Malaysia is in
fact following a modified Singaporean model — modified to
encompass the cultural and religious issues, plus the huge
territorial and ethnic diversity, that Singapore doesn’t have. You
compare Singapore to a list of cities that are
not in fact city/states (as in
Singapore-like nations that are cities), that are not even
autonomous, but simply major cities within various government
systems which range from federal democracies like Germany to
semi-democracies like Russia to absolute monarchies like the UAE.
None of them are anything like Singapore. For every similarity
(Russia has an autocrat, Abu Dhabi is tiny), there are a thousand
differences. I see no theoretical reason why cities in SL can
become like Singapore, whether in a federal or centralized system,
but it still won’t make SL like Singapore. You just can’t pass a
camel through the eye of a needle
in pretending to be something you’re not. All you’re doing is
delaying the more natural process. If MR really wants to be
King/dictator” First of all, it is your assumption that
he wants to be king. Second, there is a lot of value in pretending.
Third, I see no reason why MR should modify his administration to
suit the requirement of a schoolboy in the USA.
That should be “I see no theoretical reason why cities in SL can’t become like Singapore”
There are in fact two very good reasons why SL cities will not be like Singapore even if they were ‘city-states’ within a federal system as Heshan suggests.
First, immigration.
Singapore, as a sovereign nation, can pick and choose who it allows to enter and settle there. It can let in those it wants and needs, while keeping out those who it considers undesirable. No federal ‘city-state’ I know of has that power, not even Brussels. There are some cities in China (e.g. Hong Kong) that have control over immigration, but I don’t think the Chinese system would have much appeal to Heshan.
Second, trade.
Singapore sets its own trade policy and has its own currency. It is not compelled to source its food and other essentials from the hinterland, because it doesn’t have a hinterland. It can choose the most competitive supplier from anywhere in the world. Virtually all other federal ‘city-states’ are subject to trade policies formulated at the national level, which are usually designed to favour domestic producers, especially in agriculture.
Complete autonomy in its immigration and trade functions are critical, even defining, characteristics of the Singapore economic model. They are shared with that other shining example of city-state success, Hong Kong – and to varying degrees, with the small emirates and shiekdoms of the Middle East.
They are NOT shared with Brussels, Bueno Aires, Canberra, Washington DC or most of the other federal ‘city-states’ that Heshan seems to think are somehow comparable to a sovereign state like Singapore.
Dear Presidunce Bean,
According to you, the Sinhala-Buddhists are just wolves out for the blood of innocent lambs. They cannot be reasoned with, they cannot change, they are irredeemably evil. And any Tamil who attempts to work with them is simply a despicable lackey/puppet.
So let’s hear your plan then. Divide the country? Go back to war?
Whatever we become, it will not be Singapore the state; though it’s not impossible that some of our cities could become like Singapore the city.
You’re assuming the Singapore model works for Singapore only because its a city-state. In fact, if you look at the close derivatives of city-states in the above Wikipedia list, its clear that the Singapore model has nothing to do with Singapore being a city-state, other than streamlining the process down for administrative purposes.
Well, perhaps then you guys in the west should stop insisting that we be like you in order to obtain loans, etc. It is because western democracy seems to be the only democracy acceptable to you (except to the countries you give free passes to) that small nations such as SL are forced to pretend. As you know, within Asia we don’t have to because we are not required to. Hopefully one day SL won’t have to depend on western loans, or any loans for that matter, and can forge its own identity. It’s like having a controlling parent who won’t feed a child unless the kid behaves, and then accusing the child of not standing up for himself. Once the child no longer needs the parent, he will be himself. Speed the day.
There is no value in pretending to be something you’re not. All you’re doing is delaying the more natural process. If MR really wants to be King/dictator, then he should declare himself so. Going through the Supreme Court, having a political opposition around, being a member of the UN, etc. is an extreme waste of resources, if your only goal is to maximize the personal welfare of yourself and your family.
Actually, I provided you with a very short list of American personnel who were given slaps on the wrist for mass murder, institutionalized rape, child abuse, and torture.
You’re confusing the Americans with the SLA. Show me the press-censorship, show me the news blackouts in combat areas where the US military is stationed – that’s right, the level of transparency totally contradicts your claims.
You could provide me with just one instance of a US soldier actually getting a life sentence. This is in the entire 20th and 21st centuries.
Try this, Blacker: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/5165167/US-army-soldier-sentenced-to-life-in-prison-for-murder-of-Iraqi-prisoners.html
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Ex-US_soldier_sentenced_to_life_in_prison_for_Iraqi_teen_rape,_four_murders
You also provided me with instances of SL soldiers receiving the death penalty for murder.
Obviously, Blacker if someone confesses to murder, even within the context of a perverse judicial system such as SL has, they will be punished. The fact that all 5 of the Chemmani soldiers confessed to having a role in Krishanthys murder, and were then handed death sentences, is not a big deal. On the other hand, no Sri Lankan Army soldier who has never confessed to a crime has ever been punished . This is the true test of a penal system, not whether those who confess are adequately punished, but whether those who are guilty via implication and/or by association , are also given adequate punished, assuming that sufficient evidence exists to convict them. Despite Somaratne Rajapakse and others involved in the murder of KK directly implicating Srilal Weerasooriya, Janaka Perera, Lionel Ballage, etc., none of the latter three were ever reprimanded, found guilty of any wrongdoing, or given demotions. So Blacker, like they say in the States, take your puny example of the 5 death sentences, and put it where the sun don’t shine
Isn’t it clear where justice is being served and where it is not?
It’s clear indeed, Blacker.
* Hasan Akbar case
* Servillano Aquino
* Ernst Biberstein
* Fritz Dietrich (Nazi official)
* Ronald A. Gray
* Sadae Inoue
* Dwight J. Loving
* William Scott (The Sleeping Sentinel)
* Jürgen Stroop
* Andrew P. Witt
* Lothar Witzke
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Prisoners_sentenced_to_death_by_the_United_States_military
I don’t see there ever being large-scale investigations of war crimes in SL, but we will continue to convict those found guilty of crimes, as we have done in the past.
Unfortunately Blacker, but the above statement makes absolutely no sense, zilch, nada…
Very imperious of you, Heshan, but your declarations don’t have any standing. If you feel that the US demoting the general commanding Abu Ghraib by one rank,
Better than making the general a diplomat, wouldn’t you agree, Blacker?
giving laughably light sentences to murderers and rapists,
You mean like the 10 years for Charles Grainer? 10 years is not an uncommon sentence for rape in the USA via civil law. I don’t know which “murderers” you’re talking about. Abu Grahib was not a killing field. Murder = Stephen Green = life imprisonment.
and allowing pedophiles and torturers to walk off scot free,
Names, Blacker?
[Entire comment littered with comments contravening spirit of civil debate encouraged on this site. As noted there,
Kindly resubmit and stick to an issue based conversation, or carry on the discussion using a different expression in other fora, or by other means such as email. Heshan, this applies to your responses to Blacker as well.]
“Names, Blacker?”
Oh yes, here you go: MURDER — “The prisoner Manadel al-Jamadi died in Abu Ghraib prison after being interrogated and tortured by a CIA officer and a private contractor. The torture included physical violence and strappado hanging, whereby the victim is hung from the wrists with the hands tied behind the back. His death has been labeled a homicide by the US military, but neither of the two men who caused his death have been charged. The private contractor was granted qualified immunity.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse#Death_of_Manadel_al-Jamadi)
RAPE & PEDOPHILIA — “Major General Antonio Taguba has stated that there is photographic evidence of rape being carried out by American military personnel at Abu Ghraib. An Iraqi teenage boy was raped by a uniformed man while photos of it were taken by a female US military police. Another photo shows an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner. Other photos show sexual assaults on prisoners with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube, and a female prisoner having her clothing forcibly removed to expose her breasts. Taguba has supported President Obama’s decision not to release the photos, stating, “These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse#Raping_of_prisoners)
I had posted this before, [edited out] Here are more details of RAPE & PEDOPHILIA at Abu Ghraib for which no one was even charged:
In the Washington Post report, one detainee, Kasim Hilas, describes the rape of an Iraqi boy by a man in uniform, whose name has been blacked out of the statement: “I saw [name blacked out] fucking a kid, his age would be about 15-18 years. The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets. Then when I heard the screaming I climbed the door because on top it wasn’t covered and I saw [blacked out], who was wearing the military uniform putting his dick in the little kid’s ass,” Mr Hilas told military investigators. “I couldn’t see the face of the kid because his face wasn’t in front of the door. And the female soldier was taking pictures.” (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/may/22/iraq.usa1)
The report goes on to say: “Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, head of coalition forces in Iraq, issued an order last October giving military intelligence control over almost every aspect of prison conditions at Abu Ghraib with the explicit aim of manipulating the detainees’ “emotions and weaknesses”, it was reported yesterday. The October 12 memorandum, reported in the Washington Post, is a potential “smoking gun” linking prisoner abuse to the US high command. It represents hard evidence that the maltreatment was not simply the fault of rogue military police guards.”
Is this the justice you’re talking about, Heshan? [edited out]
GV, so you’re OK with Heshan submitting a list of US “war criminals” that in fact consists of Germans, Japanese, and a few common criminals, but you will not allow me to point it out? I’d just like a clarification on this. I must say I’m surprised that you prefer to allow comments of that nature but not factual ones.
The clarification is here. Perhaps you didn’t comprehend the first few times we pointed you to this?
OK, Sanjana, I shall resubmit and attempt to hold back my laughter and incredulity
I’d also appreciate it if you wouldn’t reformat my comments as you have with the one on Heshan’s “autonomous cities” by removing line breaks etc and making it harder to read. If you must censor, go ahead, but at least be fair.
“You’re confusing the Americans with the SLA. Show me the press-censorship, show me the news blackouts in combat areas where the US military is stationed – that’s right, the level of transparency totally contradicts your claims.”
Now, now, kid, try not to shift the goalposts when you’re pinned
The discussion was about justice and war crimes investigations by the US, not press freedoms or what have you. Don’t try to duck.
“Obviously, Blacker if someone confesses to murder, even within the context of a perverse judicial system such as SL has, they will be punished. The fact that all 5 of the Chemmani soldiers confessed to having a role in Krishanthys murder, and were then handed death sentences, is not a big deal. On the other hand, no Sri Lankan Army soldier who has never confessed to a crime has ever been punished.”
Ah, those wheeled goalposts are so useful. So now it’s not enough to have been sentenced to death, the soldiers must have “never confessed”? So then your example of Hatley has to be dismissed as well since he confessed
“This is the true test of a penal system, not whether those who confess are adequately punished, but whether those who are guilty via implication and/or by association , are also given adequate punished, assuming that sufficient evidence exists to convict them.”
No, Heshan, that would be a test of the judicial system
The penal system takes care of punishment after guilt has been decided and sentence passed. But as I asked you earlier, do you think a demotion or a reprimand is adequate for overseeing, rape, pedophilia, murder, and torture?
<em“Despite Somaratne Rajapakse and others involved in the murder of KK directly implicating Srilal Weerasooriya, Janaka Perera, Lionel Ballage, etc., none of the latter three were ever reprimanded, found guilty of any wrongdoing, or given demotions.”
Are you suggesting that Weerasooriya etc should be punished without a trial as they do in Singapore? Didn’t you just say “assuming that sufficient evidence exists to convict them”? Where is this sufficient evidence? Accusations are not evidence
Dale Green claimed that it was the US government that was responsible, not him, because they sent him to Iraq where he raped and murdered a little girl. Shouldn’t the US prez and the def sec been tried on that “evidence”?
So now let’s move on to this list of sentenced American war criminals you so confidently trot out
Hope you’ll do better than with your ahem “autonomous cities”:
Hasan Akbar — a US Army sergeant who murdered two US Army officers. Please, General Heshan, do tell me how this makes him a war criminal such as Calley, Medina, and the Abu Ghraib rapists and murders?
(http://wapedia.mobi/en/Hasan_Akbar_case)
Servillano Aquino — was a Philippino!!!
He had nothing to do with the US, and his trial was for murder in the Philippines, conducted by a military court in the Philippines (http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=604836&publicationSubCategoryId=86) — lol, Prof Heshan, your detailed research is astounding. What does this have to do with US war crimes?
Ernst Biberstein — Untersturmbannfuhrer in the SD, and commander of Einsatzkommando 6
He’s a Nazi war criminal ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Biberstein)>. He died in 1958 of natural causes. This is your list of US soldiers sentenced for war crimes?
Fritz Dietrich — an SS police chief, he was another Nazi war criminal executed in 1948 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Dietrich_%28Nazi_official%29). Bravo, my learned friend, you’ve managed to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that it was the US that murdered the 6 million Jews
Ronald A Gray — Ah, finally an American! But wait. He was convicted of a series of rapes and murders of female soldiers at Ft Bragg in North Carolina
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_A._Gray) Really, Heshan, this is a war crime? You mean the US is at war against North Carolina? Again????
Sadae Inoue — Lol a Japanese this time! A general during WW2, he died in 1961 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadae_Inoue). How does he become a US war criminal, Prof Heshan?
Dwight J. Loving — Great going, Heshan!
Loving was indeed a US Army soldier, but he wasn’t convicted of war crimes, but of robbing and murdering two taxi drivers in Texas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_J._Loving).
William Scott — was a Union soldier during the Civil War, Heshan!!! He was convicted of falling asleep on duty in 1861, but later pardoned (http://www.vermontcivilwar.org/units/3/sentinel.php)
Jürgen Stroop — Waffen-SS general, hanged by the poles in 1951 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%BCrgen_Stroop).
Is he an American war criminal, Heshan?
Andrew P. Witt — a technician in the USAF who murdered a colleague and his wife in Georgia in 2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_P._Witt).
Lothar Witzke — was a German spy during WW1
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothar_Witzke) He was arrested in Mexico in 1918 and released in 1923.
I must say that was a really funny list of “American war criminals”, Heshan.
Oh, but wait, Calley and Medina did that, no? One was acquitted, the other was pardoned — but as you say, that’s irrelevant.
Except that it occurred, how many years ago, 40? And both actually saw the inside of a courtroom? Let me count on my fingers how many Sri Lankan officers in 2009 even saw the inside of a courtroom… let’s also not forget that Vietnam era atrocities were discussed in the US Senate, as was Abu Grahib. Last time I checked, a UNP Parliamentarian was nearly strangled for *allegedly* meeting with the LTTE. Let’s not forget Sarath Fonseka… unofficial life imprisonment for alleging unarmed POW’s were shot. Now where did that investigation ever BEGIN, Blacker?
How convenient. Personally, I think the Channel 4 clip is irrelevant too. There, simple, isn’t it?
Yep, it’s simple… the Defense Secretary need not apologize, high-ranking officers need not be demoted, zero soldiers need be punished… just keep in mind, Blacker, that when you said SL will never reach the standard of Singapore, little incidents like this are the reason why.
“The Constitution only applies to citizens. Slaves were never considered citizens. So your claim that the Constitution was “violated” is actually incorrect.”
Lol I told you before that you had a grasp of law. The constitution and laws of the USA cover everyone within its jurisdiction — in other words US citizens wherever they are, and everyone and everything within US territory.
Here we go – government school ignorance at its best. When the Constitution was first written, state citizenship was equivalent to national citizenship. Slaves were considered property not people, so the Constitution did not apply to them. Only the fourteenth amendment allowed slaves to enjoy their Constitutional rights.
And most people in the UK (who were not off murdering and plundering the heathen) were farming. What’s your point? My point is that European colonization of Asia prevented those nations developing in their own individual ways, the way for example Japan and China did.
Thanks for showing your government-school ignorance…China did not even trade with the West until US warships forcefully invaded Chinese waters and forced it to. Japan was occupied by the USA – the Japanese constitution was rewritten along American ideals – if this were not the case, the Emperor would still be the head of state and Japan would have a military.
America was in Japan for seven years to act as missionaries to help Japan to reform and modernize. America brought both ideas to stabilize Japan as well as ways to increase the overall health of its people by incorporating new liberties into the society.
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This was how Japanese people were first introduced to the Human Rights that the United States’ constitution enforces. Even though Japan was loosing their right to bear arms, which they understood was the best for them at the time, they gained all other rights that we as Americans have. Most importantly they were allowed freedom of religion which was not previously given to them. Japan reopened trade with other countries allowing them to create new bonds and trust amongst nations.
Re-opening trade gave the Japanese people more opportunities to learn about Japan country and other nations through the world through new history texts. Other texts were newly written so that the education system could also be reformed. America did try to enforce incorporating Latin characters into the Japanese language because they thought that language should be ‘a highway not a barrier’ to education (Lu 489) though this was never truly adopted by Japan. The new constitution made equality of education very important, both by mental ability and background. Two new subjects that were incorporated were health and physical education. There was also a new stress on the arts and science rather than on government and philosophy. Coeducation practices were the most important change in the education system in Japan. Women’s rights were defiantly in creased in the education system as well as in politics where they were allowed to both vote and hold office.
Read more: http://socyberty.com/government/american-influences-on-japans-constitution-following-1868/#ixzz18SyP1jjF
Colonization stalled certain aspects of development while accelerating others — in the short term, it wasn’t a bad thing, but in the long term it was — so things like universal equality, political progressiveness, etc, needed to catch up.
Exactly which aspects are you talking about? SL was divided into a series of big plantations; there were a few rich landowners, who paid tribute to the King (all the land, in fact, was the property of the King), while most of the rest of the population was engaged in serfdom/paddy cultivation/fishing. The advisers to the King consisted of the Maha Sangha. Your position in society was dictated by your caste: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_Sri_Lanka
Where is the gender equality here? SL never had a female Queen. There was no such thing as public education. Other than irrigation, most of the architecture you see was built to either glorify religion or for the pleasure of the Royals. This is how SL society existed for thousands of years. I am not saying its BAD… but to say that the so-called “progressive values” were in full effect is nonsense. These were primarily CHRISTIAN values which the Europeans brought with them… the idea that everyone in society is equal, irrespective of caste/class is very much a Christian ideal. The totally stupid notions of karma/rebirth, for example, do not exist in Christianity.
As I told you, it took the USA centuries to naturally develop these traits. We are not asking for centuries, but a few decades isn’t unreasonable, and if it takes a little longer, you’ll have to be patient.
Once again, practically the whole world was backward once upon a time. Zooming in on the USA with a microscopic lens is not going to add any credibility to your argument (regardless of the level of desperation).
There was a class/caste system in the UK and other colonial powers as well, which was just as rigid. All that happened was that our class/caste system was replaced by theirs. When the British class system was then removed, our own came back into place, whereas if there had been no colonization, our class/caste system would gradually have faded away as it mostly has in the west. Now it’ll take longer, because we’re starting from scratch.
Public education, women’s rights, and the Industrial Revolution helped the Europeans get over their class-based affinities. In the modern age, geo-politics/globalization and advances in technology have ensured that the trend continues. The point is that all these of these things began as obscure ideas. The ruling establishment was forced to accept them, by hook or by crook. That kind of pressure is not there in SL today – save for the JVP and LTTE uprisings. It means that the feudal mentality is still very much alive on the island. There was nothing for the Europeans to “replace.”
You can run, but you can’t hide. That’s the beauty of the Digital Age. Censor tamilnet all you want, but the truth will come out eventually.
“Except that it occurred, how many years ago, 40? And both actually saw the inside of a courtroom?”
And Black July happened 30 years ago. And by 2040, the Channel 4 clip would have been 30 years ago? What’s your point, that mass murder pales as time goes by? There’s no statute of limitations on murder, Heshan, another point I’ve already brought up that you avoid. Calley and Medina being in court means bugger all if they didn’t see any jail time. Fonseka has been jailed for corruption and sedition (and he’s got less than two years, not life — try not to get too delusional
), not threatening to spill the beans; you might wanna remember that when you’re defending those fake rape charges against Julian Assange.
“Here we go – government school ignorance at its best. When the Constitution was first written, state citizenship was equivalent to national citizenship. Slaves were considered property not people, so the Constitution did not apply to them. Only the fourteenth amendment allowed slaves to enjoy their Constitutional rights.”
Ah, the Untersturmfuhrer appears again. First of all, the US constitution recognised slaves to be people and not merely property (though just 3/5ths of a person — a compromise between the southern states who wanted blacks counted as people and the northern who wanted them to remain property). Second, the Constitution is not the only document that should be considered capable of dictating life in America — the Declaration of Independence states that all men are born equal, and the Bill of Rights guaranteed those freedoms. Similarly the Emancipation Proclamation wasn’t part of the Constitution, but was binding until amendments were made to the Constitution. In the same way, even after the Constitution recognised Negroes as equal to whites, illegal Black Codes and Jim Crow laws remained in place, basically ignoring the Constitution. Second, a crime not being law at the time does not absolve the defendant of guilt. Nazi law stripped the Jews of all rights as humans; this did not absolve the defendants at Nuremberg or since. The upcountry Indian Tamils were not citizens of SL for many years, and had no rights; many were deported, jailed, and displaced. Does this absolve the authorities of guilt because the victims were not covered by the law?
“Thanks for showing your government-school ignorance…China did not even trade with the West until US warships forcefully invaded Chinese waters and forced it to.”
Please show me when this happened, Prof Heshan. Perhaps you can find it in the textbooks your school supplies? I’d be most interested to know when this fantasy happened
“Japan was occupied by the USA – the Japanese constitution was rewritten along American ideals – if this were not the case, the Emperor would still be the head of state and Japan would have a military.”
Lol, Japan had become a modern industrial nation long before WW2, and wasn’t even a strict monarchy. I’m talking about colonial occupation. Oh, and btw the emperor is still Japan’s head of state
Which school do you go to again? And Japan does have a military (I’m sure you don’t wanna get your butt kicked again like what happened here no? — http://groundviews.org/2010/09/24/did-the-sri-lankan-army-use-cluster-bombs-and-phosphorus-bombs-against-civilians/).
“This was how Japanese people were first introduced to the Human Rights that the United States’ constitution enforces.”
Are you sure? I believe that happened at Hiroshima & Nagasaki.
“Re-opening trade gave the Japanese people more opportunities to learn about Japan country”
You mean before that Japanese people didn’t know about Japan country?
Did they know about China country perhaps, and downstair people? Ha ha.
“Exactly which aspects are you talking about? SL was divided into a series of big plantations; there were a few rich landowners, who paid tribute to the King”
That more or less describes England and the USA at the time too.
“Where is the gender equality here? SL never had a female Queen.”
Really? You mean we had male queens? Sounds like a pretty progressive place to me.
“This is how SL society existed for thousands of years. I am not saying its BAD… but to say that the so-called “progressive values” were in full effect is nonsense.”
Where did I say that they were? I said that the chance to develop our own progressive values were stalled by colonization. When England and its commercial firms colonized SL, there was no gender equality in the UK either, no emancipation of women, no ethnic equality, no democracy, no public education, or health. All of these things developed in the UK in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries. They were then applied to us according to the master’s wishes. We didn’t develop them for ourselves according to our needs the way it was done in say Japan, or Thailand. The result was that we were left with a system that we didn’t really like, which was then discarded in favour of a system that we are yet to perfect. Hope you understand now, kid.
“the idea that everyone in society is equal, irrespective of caste/class is very much a Christian ideal.”
It isn’t — it’s a Greek concept, and it’s where the word aristocracy comes from — originally a form of government by the best in the land; best not by birth, but by ability. In contrast, Christians have always favoured monarchies and slavery (as in the US).
“Once again, practically the whole world was backward once upon a time. Zooming in on the USA with a microscopic lens is not going to add any credibility to your argument (regardless of the level of desperation)”
Well it was you that claimed SL was backward and therefore needed to be colonized
Now you’re saying everyone was once backward so it doesn’t matter? Ha ha you’re squirming again, Heshan. And my point is, since the west (and particularly the US) took centuries to develop into modern democracies, it’s not unfair to expect us to need a few decades.
“You can run, but you can’t hide. That’s the beauty of the Digital Age. Censor tamilnet all you want, but the truth will come out eventually.”
OOoh, I’m a bit scared now
Correction: *are also given adequate punishment
More stats for you. Blacker:
The military of the United States executed 160 soldiers and other members of the armed forces between 1942 and 1961 (these figures do not include German prisoners of war, war criminals and saboteurs executed by military authorities between 1942 and 1951). There have been no military executions since 1961 although the death penalty is still a possible punishment for several crimes under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Of these executions, 157 were carried out by the United States Army. The United States Air Force conducted the three remaining executions, one in 1950 and two in 1954. The U.S. Navy has not executed anyone since 1849. The United States Army had previously executed a total of 36 soldiers during the First World War, eleven of these executions taking place between 5 November 1917 and 20 June 1919 in France and 25 hangings being carried out in the continental United States over the same time period.
Of the total, 106 were executed for murder (including 21 involving rape), 53 for rape and one for desertion (Eddie Slovik).[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_the_United_States_military
You can continue to cry over non-existent double standards, but unfortunately the stats don’t back your case. Now show me that list of prisoners held at Boosa.
Convicting soldiers for common crime, murder, rape, etc outside the warzone has nothing to do with war crimes. I’ve already submitted a comment on this pointing out in detail that none of the Americans on your list are in fact convicted for war crimes and that the majority named are Germans and Japanese soldiers. Sanjana won’t let it through in case you get upset, and since it’s his blog, I guess it’s upto him
Krish,
Why do you bring in religion as well? British left India with the Hindu majority
India adapted a federal model from the very start, and this has prevented the kind of ethnic tension one sees in SL. There have been a few uprisings in India, but these have largely centered around religion , not ethnicity. Even though the British left power with the Hindus, India has a Sikh Prime Minister as of right now, while it has had Muslim presidents in the past. Untouchables/Dalits have become Supreme Court justices in India. So it is rather silly of you to infer that Hindus are unwilling to share power.
and in the last 60 years, we are probably the most backward country in the world for a country of that size. Poverty, corruption, pollution, lack of infrastructure, lack of education etc etc is what India is left with today.
It doesn’t make sense to speak of all of India in the same sentence. If you go to a place like Kerala or Bangalore, the problems you speak of are non-existant. Kerala is like a first-world country.
India’s predominantly Hindu leaders didn’t achieve anything significant for their country. Or let us say, they have got a long long way to go! India has a tolerant society from a religious/social/linguistic point, but in terms of other factors ranks far behind most Buddhist countries like Thailand or Srilanka or even Myanmar.
India has space shuttles in outer space, and has produced its own nuclear weapons. India produces more than 1 million engineers every year… 30% of doctors in the UK are Indian. The founder of hotmail was an Indian. India has achieved more gender equality in the political sphere than any of the countries you mentioned. India certainly produces X100 more female engineers, doctors, and other technical workers than any of the countries you mentioned, even if we do a comparable population size analysis.
The number of folks dying daily in India due to poverty and hunger would be more than what you saw in the final phases of war last year in SL. It is that bad. As I say all these, please be aware that I am a Hindu myself and from India.
People don’t die in India because they’re Hindu or Muslim or Sikh. They die because India has more than a billion people and population control/birth control methods are not as prominent in India as they are in the West.
From my understanding, it seems that bridging the gap between the 2 sides in Sri lanka is proving to be very tough even after the end of the war. What Tamil folks should be doing is ENGAGE with the predominantly Sinhala/Buddhist majority. It may not be easy, but you need to talk, keep engaged, highlight your concerns but show appreciation when they listen. TravellingAcademic mentioned in his previous post very brilliantly as to how to engage. Instead of showing tiger flags, show a white flag. Posting polarized opinions wouldn’t help as much as talking and engaging.
LOL. Tamils have never been treated well since the British left. The primary problem is that the Sri Lankan Government is unwilling to share power with the Tamils. I suggest you go through the articles written by one, “Dayan Jayatillake” on this website to understand the motivation behind such a mindset. While DJ himself is not a Sinhala-Buddhist, he is an apologist for the Sri Lankan Government. Unfortunately, such apologists abound in SL – among the Sinhalese – enough so that trying to engage with moderate Sinhalese is a rather futile activity. What Tamils really need is their own political space – e.g. along the line of federalism – so that they can make their own choices as regards their welfare and future. Since 1948, the Sri Lankan Government has only catered to the needs and aspirations of SB extremists. Do you know why Ranil Wickremasinghe is so unpopular today, despite his obviously genuine efforts to make peace?
Mr.PresidenceBean
I am waiting and waiting for your reply……..!
Heshan
You say that Sarath Fonseaka is incarcerated on framed charges, but it’s rather intrigueing that you don’t see the charges against Julian Asange in the same light. Perhaps not;you are a bigot and you yourself is a shame to the country that you claim to live. There’s no condemning or type-casting of people in the US like you do depending on people’s religion, education and social status! You are in fact a shame! Oh! the British should have given the country to the Christians and the Hindus-who are a minority in Sri Lanka! Amazing logic and amazing bigotry!
But the country that you live has a shameful history. Not only the slaves ; that is more than hundred years ago! The Blacks got their equality after the Martin Luther King’s campaign in the 60′. What Blacker is telling is that until then the US government did not fully implement thier constitution! Is it clear to you now?
longus,
Assange has not been incarcerated yet for spying, so what’s your point? The allegations in his case have to do with rape , not espionage. If he is innocent, as far as the rape charges go, he will be released. Fonseka accused GR of a war crime. GR went on BBC, threatening to hang Fonseka if he releases this info. Instead of criticizing the US for condemning Assange, you should ask why SL has a psychopathic Defense Secretary.
Indeed, the British should have left the country in the hands of the Christians and Hindus. Look at where the Sinhala-Buddhist extremists have taken the country… look at where it is currently going. Nowhere! The country does not even have a direction for the future. Individual people with sufficient economic means may prosper, but the country as a whole is not moving forward. You may have won the silly unknown war against a few LTTE kids, but at what cost? Rajapakse dynasty will rob the country blind for another 500 years. As Mr.Blacker implied, SL will never be able to compete with Singapore or India – the true test of progress. IF the British had stayed another 50-60 years, SL would be a first-world country right now, like Hong Kong. That is the sad truth of the matter. I am saying it objectively – I have no particular affection for colonialists. But a BAD government is a BAD government, and BAD government is what we have had since the day the British left in ’48.
Keep condemning the USA for this and that. But the fact remains that a Black can become the president. How far can a Tamil go? Maha Sangha will never give their approval to a Tamil president, that is 100% sure.
Dear Krish
You say… “From my understanding, it seems that bridging the gap between the 2 sides in Sri Lanka is proving to be very tough even after the end of the war.” Well how can you bridge a gap between Sinhala Buddhists on one side and the Hindus, Muslims and Christians on one side when only a Sinhala Buddhist will be accepted as PresiDunce of this country! In India at least there was a Muslim PresDunce and presently another PresiDunce, Marathi speaking Pratibha Patil and Sikh Prime Manmohan Singh Minister.
“There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular but one must take it because it’s right.” – Martin Luther King, Jr -
What has been happening in Sri Lanka in the past 62 years is JUST NOT RIGHT!
What has been happening in the North & East during and after the war is JUST NOT RIGHT!
The majority has no right to ride rough shod over the minorities just because they happen to be a ‘numerical’ majority! Sadly a majority of the majority was infected with ‘swine flu’ soon after IndepenDunce, and it became incurable after 1956! It’s JUST NOT RIGHT to try and impose your language, culture, religion etc. on somebody else just because you are stronger or much powerful than them!
You also say, “What Tamil folks should be doing is ENGAGE with the predominantly Sinhala/Buddhist majority.” Well Krish…Tamil folk did engage with the Sinhala/Buddhist majority, but to no avail. Burgher folk used their brains and migrated to Australia, Britain, Canada, etc.
“The soft-minded man always fears change. He feels security in the status quo, and he has an almost morbid fear of the new. For him, the greatest pain is the pain of a new idea.” – Martin Luther King, Jr. –
Sadly this beautiful country is inhabited by a majority of soft-minded people. Like Faust, they made a deal with the devil and his family after the war…and now we find ourselves in a fast lane to nowhere. The minorities have known it for some time know…the educated majority send their kids abroad…but the rest of the majority are living in a Fools’ Paradise!
Dear Bean
“Well Krish…Tamil folk did engage with the Sinhala/Buddhist majority, but to no avail. Burgher folk used their brains and migrated to Australia, Britain, Canada, etc.”
Are you suggesting that the Tamils in Sri Lanka all get out? Isn’t this exactly what the Sinhala racists want?????
Presidunce Bean,
“Well how can you bridge a gap between Sinhala Buddhists on one side and the Hindus, Muslims and Christians on one side when only a Sinhala Buddhist will be accepted as PresiDunce of this country! In India at least there was a Muslim PresDunce and presently another PresiDunce, Marathi speaking Pratibha Patil and Sikh Prime Manmohan Singh Minister.”
Not sure if comparisons would hold that good between India and Sri Lanka. For example, in Srilanka, Sinhalese are linguistically the majority and religion-wise Buddhists the majority. And since almost all Buddhists are Sinhalese, they form a majority religously and linguistically. But, in India, although Hindus are the majority group, linguistically no single group can claim an absolute majority (though Hindi is the most understood/conversed language). So, in that sense, India is a divided country meaning, a country with discrete group of disjoint states that have to co-exist with one another. That is why there is often inter-state fights and power-sharing headaches there. And Indian constitution allows for states to be formed on a linguistic basis if that can help avoid problems from secession till infighting.
I am getting distracted so much already. Anyways…back to the point. Let us say, Rajapakse appoints a Tamil guy as PM tomorrow. Can you explain how that helps fix the problems of Tamils in SL? Alternatively, if Kadirgamar became the president in place of Rajapakse 2005, how exactly would that have helped Tamils?
“Well Krish…Tamil folk did engage with the Sinhala/Buddhist majority, but to no avail. Burgher folk used their brains and migrated to Australia, Britain, Canada, etc.”
What did 30 years of LTTE bring to Tamils either? It only brought more miseries to the Tamils’ already existing problems. While LTTE and diaspora Tamils drew a lot of attention to internationlize the issue, it only deepened the division and distrust between communities. With LTTE gone, Sinhala majority would feel less threatened and that some room to get communities together.
Rajapakse may be power-hungry and authoritarian, but seems willing to engage. Otherwise, how do you think that KP, Daya master, Karuna (all Tamils) are living happily (imagine Karuna’s crimes and KP’s internation terrorism acts), while Sihalese folks like Lasantha, Prageeth and Sarath have suffered for being being critical journalists or patriotic soldiers. Srilanka or its leaders may not be perfect, but it would only benefit you if you engage. Showing tiger flag or criticizing Sinhala chauvinists for everything doesn’t help. It is only going to drive away even the broad-minded people among Sinhalese. Wondering if there are any Tamil leaders who can truly engage and help move forward. Let us see.
Heshan
‘Rape’ is different from ‘molesting’
Fonseka is jailed for fraud!
You can say that the British should have left India in the hands of the Sikhs as well.
longus, You can call it “fraud” or whatever you want, but
the fact remains that Fonseka implicated GR in a manner that has
serious implications for foreign relations. The fact that Fonseka
also ran for President and brought attention to himself doesn’t
help matters. Assange is accused of rape , not
molesting. The charges have been brought by Sweden
, not the USA. Rape is defined very loosely in Sweden -
even sleeping with an unconscious woman is considered rape. IF
Assange is extradited to the USA, then the case can be considered
politically motivated. But I doubt this will happen – Sweden is
pretty neutral, as per WWII. Thanks for displaying your lack of
knowledge about India.
Correction: should read as while sleeping , not unconscious.
Dear Krish “KP, Daya master, Karuna (all Tamils)” You forgot Douglas Devananda. They are all allowed to survive due to services rendered to Rajapaksa and his clan.
Dear wijeyapala, you say “Are you suggesting that the Tamils in Sri Lanka all get out? Isn’t this exactly what the Sinhala racists want???? The Tamils, Burghers and others who left new that you cant’ beat them…but neither were they willing to JOIN them and become puppets and lackeys like KP, Daya master, George Master, Karuna, Pillayan etc. There are plenty of Tamils and minorities who remain in Sri Lanka but who prefer staying silent (silent minorities) than selling their souls for a mess of pottage.
Dear Bean
““Are you suggesting that the Tamils in Sri Lanka all get out? Isn’t this exactly what the Sinhala racists want???? The Tamils, Burghers and others who left new that you cant’ beat them…”
Kindly take off your Dunce Cap and answer the question. Thank you.
Heshan
As a matter pending in courts, I can’t pass a judgement whether Assange is guilty or not, but I heard a lot of voices expressing their malice at Assange. And these voices came from the high places of world power, not the ordinary people. Some called him a ‘terrorist’;some told he had endangered the national security;some said publicly that he should be executed! And considering that Mrs. Clinton wanted to spy on UN Secretary General, it won’t be an entirely absurd idea to speculate that politics did play a role in ‘framing’ Assange for rape or molestation. If you read the latest issue of Time with Assange on the front page, he(Assange) says in an interview that the governments can no longer hide behind the curtain of ‘National Recurity’ to cover up their crimes. Here I also notice that even Time seems to throw away its cherished ideas of ‘free expression’ and shows an agressive attitude towards Assange for revealing classified files. That I presume is a result of self-censorship or coming to save the establishment at a crucial moment, when a lot of Western credibility is at stake.
I know of your misguided idea of Western Seperiority and Christian Superiority in undermining anything Sinhalese or Buddhist! Anyway you are not a new phenomenon, as people like you have lived in the past and were the main reason for countless betrayals the country faced during the colonial period. This could be a result of total lack of any king of national pride that any person of any country harbours or the inherent prejudice that some people are born with or some other reason that is best known to you!
longus,
The day that the CIA puts a bullet to Assange’s head, you may have a point. But *malice* alone does not correlate to a human rights violation, much less a war crime. Your friend China has said Taiwan and Tibet should not exist, while your friend Iran has said Israel should not exist. Once upon a time, your other friend Japan said none of Asia should exist, except as slaves for Japan. If you want to start the *verbal propaganda game*, I hate to inform you, but the West will come in *last place.*
If Sinhalese and Buddhist are so great, why is S. Lanka not a first-world nation? Before you use the colonialism excuse, be aware that every Asian nation except Thailand has been colonized and/or occupied by outsiders. The problem with your kind of patriotism is that you never take any responsibility for your actions. That is why I consistently argued that Tamils were actually better off under Eelam/LTTE – at least they would be free to make their own choices without some psychopath in orange robes dictating from a book of myths.
“The day that the CIA puts a bullet to Assange’s
“Before
But then, what else is
head, you may have a point.” Don’t be childish, Heshan.
What governments and government bodies do is solely dictated by
what they can get away with. In the words of Colin Powell, a member
of the administration that lied to the American people to illegally
invade Iraq, “You never know what you can
get away with until you try.” If Assange
wasn’t such a high profile person, the US would have no compunction
in “disappearing” him to Gitmo or some other facility. Instead,
they’ve pressured Sweden to arrest him on what is basically a minor
charge (http://indi.ca/2010/12/what-julian-assanges-arrest-means/).
“Your friend China has said Taiwan and Tibet should not
exist, while your friend Iran has said Israel should not exist.
Once upon a time, your other friend Japan said none of Asia should
exist, except as slaves for Japan.” And the US once said
that blacks only existed to be slaves of the whites, that no part
of the US had the right to secede and determine its own future,
that a nation had no right to exist if it disagreed with the US,
that it would support tyrants all over the world if it suited the
US, that it would not sign up to environmental treaties that
benefit the world, nor to human rights courts that would prosecute
war criminals. Are you sure the west would come in last?
“If Sinhalese and Buddhist are so great, why is S. Lanka
not a first-world nation?” Lol, more childish
comparisons. Well why isn’t Christian Philippines a 1st world
nation, or Christian Mexico, or Venezuela? Why aren’t Hindu India
and Bangladesh 1st world countries? And in contrast, why are the
Muslim Emirates 1st world nations? The reasons have nothing to do
with religion, Father Heshan. “That is why I consistently
argued that Tamils were actually better off under Eelam/LTTE – at
least they would be free to make their own choices without some
psychopath in orange robes dictating from a book of
myths.” You mean like when the Portuguese and Dutch
dictated to us from their own book of myths?
you use the colonialism excuse, be aware that every Asian nation
except Thailand has been colonized and/or occupied by
outsiders.” Lol, here we go again. Such confidence
coupled with such utter ignorance
childhood? In fact, many other Asian nations were not colonized by
the west. Again, in the context we’re discussing, occupations such
as post-WW2 don’t count since it occurred in the modern age of
industrialization and communications, when traditional development
had already had a chance to flourish. Afghanistan (invaded thrice
by the British but never colonized) Bhutan China Japan Korea
(Japanese colonization doesn’t count, since their values and
culture were also Asian and similar to Korea’s) Mongolia (again, no
western colonization, just Chinese) Russia (European as much as
Asian, but still) Why don’t you read a few books, Prof Google,
instead of spouting such rubbish?
What governments and government bodies do is solely dictated by
what they can get away with.
You mean unlike GOSL, which can put SF in jail indefinitely. Thus, you’re admitting that the US judicial system actually work, contradicting some earlier daydreams you were spouting here.
If Assange
wasn’t such a high profile person, the US would have no compunction
in “disappearing” him to Gitmo or some other facility.
You mean the same Gitmo, which by your own admission, has seen six people die in 10 years (btw: still waiting for those Boosa stats, Blacker
. I don’t know about Gitmo detainees, but actual spies don’t see daylight again. E.g. when a CIA mole is caught, he/she is dealt with swiftly, because such a person has actual info that poses a real threat to national security. Obviously, Assange doesn’t fit that mold. His security clearance is zero, and his sources of info are limited. Whatever classified documents he obtained are a one-time thing, and so far the stuff he released is harmless. This is why he’s free and not locked up. Btw: where’s your proof that the US pressured Sweden to do anything?
And the US once said
that blacks only existed to be slaves of the whites
You mean at the time that criminals in Kandy were tied to two oxen and pulled apart?
. FYI: slavery was legal only in the South.
Well why isn’t Christian Philippines a 1st world
nation, or Christian Mexico, or Venezuela? Why aren’t Hindu India
and Bangladesh 1st world countries? And in contrast, why are the
Muslim Emirates 1st world nations? The reasons have nothing to do
with religion,
Where did I say every Christian nation is a first-world country? On the other hand, that doesn’t mean religion can’t impede a nation’s development.
The argument he develops is that Buddhism became the vehicle for the assertion of Sinhalese nationalism by newer rural social groups seeking political power who were excluded from the largely urban, westernized power elite that inherited and first administered independent Sri Lanka in 1948. What eventually emerged broadly was a two-party system whereby the monopoly of the political party that inherited independence, the United National party (UNP), was broken in 1956 for a brief period and subsequently for much of the decade of the 1970s by a coalition of forces espousing Sinhala Buddhist nationalism led by the Sri Lanka Freedom party (SLFP).
http://books.google.com/books?id=C-PTZOAbFxYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Buddhism+Betrayed&source=bl&ots=KX41xg6rN8&sig=ut2Z15xveMewhvRCeAmFr6szZMg&hl=en&ei=88ATTd2xLY-6ngf_u-SzDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
Unsurprisingly, Blacker, that book is banned in SL. But it does the job of connecting the dots, e.g. Sinhala + Buddhist + nationalism. When it comes to politics, SL is not secular. You can’t give examples like the “Muslim Emirates”; the “Muslim Emirates” is wealthy only because they have oil, just like every other Mid-East Arab nation, save for Israel and also Dubai, the so-called financial hub.
You mean like when the Portuguese and Dutch
dictated to us from their own book of myths?
You mean when the Portugese and Dutch gave the children of Karawas and other low-castes opportunities to attend school instead of climbing coconut trees and fishing for the rest of their lives? What can I say, not every big book of myths is created equal. Some teach a fake history, while others actually teach humanity.
In fact, many other Asian nations were not colonized by
the west. Again, in the context we’re discussing, occupations such
as post-WW2 don’t count since it occurred in the modern age of
industrialization and communications, when traditional development
had already had a chance to flourish.
Nice try, Blacker, but the point remains: Thailand is the only exception. China is NOT an exception, ever heard of the Boxer Rebellion? Afghanistan is a dump (always was, always will be), and was nevertheless ruled by the Soviets. Japan was given a total makeover by the USA after WWII. Only a total ignoramus would deny the American influence on Japan. Mongolia was not officially independent until 1921 (till then it was considered Chinese property). Bhutan? Yeah, okay, Blacker… I’m sure the British would have had a hard time conquering “Bhutan.”
Korea – South Korea is a top American ally, all because the Americans occupied Korea after WWII.
Explain what you mean by “traditional development”, Blacker. Are you referring to Mao’s “Cultural Revolution”? Or perhaps you mean the 23 million Chinese slaughtered by Japan during WWII, for the glory of the Emperor. Or perhaps you mean those effigies of “Great Leader” Kim which North Koreans pay homage to – or was it the forced labor camps in NK that you were referring specifically to. Or was it MAHINDA Chinthanaya… let’s include the 300,000 Tamils in mud hut IDP camps and kiribath parties in your definition of “traditional development.” Since you mentioned Russia, let’s not leave out Stalin’s Gulags. Indeed, Blacker, how can colonialism possibly compare to these amazing efforts of the native ppl… if only Mao and Pol Pot were still around, Cambodia and China would reign supreme!
“You mean unlike GOSL, which can put SF in jail
The GoSL feels it can get away with
. I don’t know about Gitmo detainees, but
. And what Boossa stats, Prof?
“Whatever
who had a pretty high level of
What you
Neither
However, it was the
Actually they remain US
indefinitely.” No, I mean like the GoSL which can jail
SF for two years on iffy charges. Could you point me to a link that
supports your “indefinite” story? And please don’t link to
something about the SS again
certain things. Similarly, the US government knows it can also get
away with things — lying to its citizens in order to invade a
foreign country, torturing prisoners, detaining suspects without
trial, giving superficial sentences to war criminals, or pardoning
them outright, etc — and will continue to do so as long as it can.
“You mean the same Gitmo, which by your own admission,
has seen six people die in 10 years (btw: still waiting for those
Boosa stats, Blacker
actual spies don’t see daylight again.” Yes, that’s the
one, the same one that has been declared illegal by the US Supreme
Court and which violates the Hague and Geneva Conventions on human
rights and the treatment of POWs. Even if no one had died there, it
would still be illegal
I pointed out Gitmo and Abu Ghraib
were illegal and gave you the stats –
if you’re saying a similar facility exists at Boossa,
you should prove it by providing
me with proof in the form of stats. I
know of no such illegal detainees at Boossa, so where would I find
the stats for these nonexistent people?
classified documents he obtained are a one-time thing, and so far
the stuff he released is harmless.” Yes, I too think
that the Wikileaks stuff isn’t harmful to the USA or any other
nation, though it is embarrassing to individuals. But if it’s all
so harmless as you say, why has Newt Gingrich called
him a terrorist and an enemy combatant?
(http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/gingrich-assange-enemy-combatant/)
Why is former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee (slated to run for
the White House in 2012) calling for Bradley Manning
to be executed?
(http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/11/huckabee-wants-leaker-executed/)
Why has John Hawkins written an article titled
“5 Reasons Why the CIA Should Have Already
Killed Julian Assange”?
(http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnHawkins/2010/11/30/5_reasons_the_cia_should_have_already_killed_julian_assange/page/full/)
Why has Joe Liberman called Wikileaks an attack on
the US
(http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/253984/sunday-outrage-kathryn-jean-lopez)
Why has Sarah Palin suggested that Assange be treated
as a terrorist and insurgent? Why is
Diane Feinstein demanding that Assange be prosecuted
for espionage?
(http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/08/julian-assange-cast-enemy-us)
If you say that Assange isn’t a spy (and he isn’t),
why is the US Justice Dept preparing to prosecute
Assange and Manning for conspiracy under the 1917 Espionage
Act?
(http://www.pdamerica.org/articles/news/2010-12-17-09-31-24-news.php)
“His security clearance is zero, and his sources of info
are limited.” Lol, it wasn’t Assange who had access to
the info, dimwit, it was Manning
access obviously. But perhaps you should mention this to your
leaders above. “You mean at the time that criminals in
Kandy were tied to two oxen and pulled apart?” So what’s
your point, that the west was as barbaric as the east? I agree. How
does that then make it cool for the west to colonize the east? And
this from a country that used to fry its criminals to death until a
couple of decades ago, and which still executes prisoners (the only
one in the western world FYI). “FYI: slavery was legal
only in the South.” And? The Declaration of Independence
and the Bill of Rights applied to all the states, not just the
north, Einstein. I also already pointed out to you that even
“legal” crimes are still crimes. Nazi law in the ’30s and ’40s
defined who was a Jew, categorized them as
Gemeinschaftsfremde (enemies of the community)
who had no legal rights in German society, and outlined actions to
be taken against them — in other words, making the harsh treatment
of the Jews legal at the time — just like slavery. At Nuremberg,
bullshit defences like “it was legal, your honour” didn’t cut it.
And neither does your bullshit defence of slavery. “Where
did I say every Christian nation is a first-world country? On the
other hand, that doesn’t mean religion can’t impede a nation’s
development.” Where did I say that you did?
did ask was why SL wasn’t a 1st world nation if Buddhism was so
great. I pointed out that many nations that are not Buddhist are
also still third world, and that some (like Thailand) are doing OK,
and that others (like Japan) were already 1st world. Of course,
religion can impede a country’s development –
any religion, which is why it’s best
that religion be kept at home and out of government. “The
argument he develops is that Buddhism became the vehicle for the
assertion of Sinhalese nationalism by newer rural social groups
seeking political power who were excluded from the largely urban,
westernized power elite that inherited and first administered
independent Sri Lanka in 1948.” Perfectly true, the
author’s a smart man — but you’re not. The fault isn’t that of
Buddhism, but that of the exclusion of certain classes from the
administration. Buddhism was merely the vehicle at the time. In the
late ’80s it was communism. For the last 30 years it’s been Eelam.
Religion has often been a vehicle for both good and evil — the
crusades, freedom, terrorism, you name it. All religions are
essentially good and beneficial to humanity if interpreted
contextually and followed in spirit — but become evil when twisted
to fit the agendas of fundamentalists, be they neo-cons in the US
or Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, orthodox Jews in Israel or Islamic
Jihad in Palestine. And yes, the book was banned in the ’90s,
during the UNP regime I believe. “You mean when the
Portugese and Dutch gave the children of Karawas and other
low-castes opportunities to attend school instead of climbing
coconut trees and fishing for the rest of their lives?”
So that they could be serfs to the colonial masters who now owned
their land instead of farming it for themselves?
religion nor education is an excuse for conquest, Untersturmfuhrer
Heshan. “Nice try, Blacker, but the point remains:
Thailand is the only exception. China is NOT an exception, ever
heard of the Boxer Rebellion?” Nice try, Heshan, but you
remain ignorant. The discussion was on colonial influence by the
west, not clashes between east and west. China was
never colonized. The Boxer Rebellion was sparked by
anger against perceived offenses by “opium traders, political
invasion, economic manipulation, to missionary evangelism.”
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion) As I said, read a
few books. “Afghanistan is a dump (always was, always
will be), and was nevertheless ruled by the Soviets.” A
country has the right to be a dump if it wants to be. No one has
the right to invade it. The Soviet occupation was less than ten
years — a mere blink in the eye of history — and did nothing to
improve conditions in the country; if at all, they made it worse
before being kicked out; which is my point about colonization in
the first place. “Japan was given a total makeover by the
USA after WWII. Only a total ignoramus would deny the American
influence on Japan.” Which is why I never denied it
But Japan wasn’t colonized by the US; it was occupied as a result
of its own military attack on the US — an attack spurred by the
unfair trade practices of the US in the Pacific. Japan had to be
remade by the US because they had fire-bombed and nuked it in the
first place. Germany was also remade by the US — are you
suggesting that America colonized Germany?
back-breaking restrictions placed on post-WW1 Germany that gave
Hitler the opportunity to take over. American influence on the east
was all in the late 19th century and 20th century, after
industrialization, parliamentary democracy, universal franchise,
and other other ideas had already begun to spread throughout the
world — and American influence was mostly economic and military –
not legal or cultural, which is where it differs from colonization,
which occurred mostly between the 16th and early 19th centuries.
“Mongolia was not officially independent until 1921 (till
then it was considered Chinese property).” Exactly.
Never colonized by the west. Just like China. There was no clash
between Chinese and Mongolian culture. “I’m sure the
British would have had a hard time conquering “Bhutan.””
Hard or not, they never did, and that’s the point. Nearby Nepal, on
the other hand was made a protectorate. “Korea – South
Korea is a top American ally, all because the Americans occupied
Korea after WWII.” Really?
allies because the latter helped them against the North Koreans.
But as I said, 20th century invasions by the west never changed the
natural progression of Asian nations, since most sovereign nations
had come of age by the 20th century. “Explain what you
mean by “traditional development”, Blacker.” I said
natural, not traditional. Natural development is the method in
which a nation develops from a feudal society to a modern
government, along paths that suit its own unique culture and
geography. For instance, both Thailand, Japan and the UK — very
different and unique nations — developed into parliamentary
monarchies, but both did so in their own unique way. Most nations
on earth, if they hadn’t been colonized, had done so by the
beginning of the 20th century. The nations that were colonized,
were invaded at a time when they still underdeveloped, and taken
over by European nations under powerful monarchs, that were
themselves underdeveloped but required foreign resources to power
development. For example, British colonization of Asia and Africa
was headed by huge mercantile companies which had their own
mercenary armies, officered by disaffected Scotsmen and Irishmen
who were being encouraged to look abroad for what they could not
find at home. In England itself, the sons of middle class families
which could not afford higher education or the price of an
officer’s slot in the Army were told to “go east, young man”. A
small world that couldn’t accommodate the needs of a home
population, was expanded to provide resources, employment and
ambition. In contrast, the weaker colonized nations then had their
own indigenous systems replaced by alien ones to which they were
forced to adapt, systems and social strata that was at odds with
their own, but with which they had no choice. So instead of
naturally developing into modern systems, the pre-colonial systems
were merely petrified while the colonial systems continued to
develop along lines that suited the Europeans rather than the
Asians and Africans. So for instance when universal franchise
arrived in England, it was reserved for the masters in Asia, and
not the servants, resulting that the latter had no experience of
democracy until independence — so while the UK was a functioning
democracy by the first half of the 20th century, its colonial
subjects were living in an absolute monarchy. So when colonization
was then removed, there had been no natural development of
democratic principles, human rights, gender rights or anything else
in the interim centuries. We had to start from scratch, with only
theory to follow. Is it then any surprise that horrendous mistakes
were — and continue to be — made? I hope you get it now.
“Are you referring to Mao’s “Cultural Revolution”? Or
perhaps you mean the 23 million Chinese slaughtered by Japan during
WWII, for the glory of the Emperor blah blah” Great
tragedies have been visited on many nations, regardless of
colonization. The white genocide of the Red Indians, the genocide
of indigenous populations in Australia, the genocide of Congolese
by the Belgians (as many as 10 million killed) in the late 19th
century, the Holocaust, Stalin, Mao, the former Jugoslavia, Rwanda,
the Rape of Nanking, Hiroshima & Nagasaki, My lai, Abu
Ghraib, Black July, etc. These have been carried out across the
world, by former colonies and former colonials, Asians and
Europeans, Africans and Americans — Christians, Muslims,
Buddhists, Communists, whatever. What has this got to do with our
discussion?
The GoSL feels it can get away with
certain things. Similarly, the US government knows it can also get
away with things
Last time I checked, Obama wasn’t the one unable to make a speech at the OU. Members of his entourage weren’t trying to catch flights home early to avoid being arrested for possible war crimes allegations. So now who is hiding what, Blacker?
And what Boossa stats, Prof?
I pointed out Gitmo and Abu Ghraib
were illegal and gave you the stats –
Abu Grahib was closed a long time ago… by your own admission, Gitmo is relatively harmless. Thus, your “examples” are either non-existent (outdated) or irrelevant. Got anything new Blacker?
if you’re saying a similar facility exists at Boossa,
you should prove it by providing
me with proof in the form of stats. I
know of no such illegal detainees at Boossa
Of course, Blacker… having served in an organization given free license to rape, kill, torture, kidnap (btw: did you hear about your buddies caught in the 70 mill ATM heist
, you live in some kind of time warp, where any allegation of criminal negligence involving your beloved “Defense Ministry” is somehow bogus.
–
Detainees attacked at Boosa prision
A group of Tamil prisoners have been tortured, abused, and attacked in the Boosa prison, Tamil parliamentarians accuse authorities.
The 68 Tamil detainees were transferred from New Magazine prison in Colombo to Boosa prison on Saturday.
The authorities have not informed the relatives of the detainees of the transfer and not allowed to meet them, Tamil National Alliance said.
Deputy Minister of Justice, Vadivel Puththirasigamoney told BBC Sinhala service on Tuesday that the detainees were transferred “for their own safety”.
He said that he has also recieved information about incidents of assaults and intimidation to the detainees.
Deputy Minister Puththirasigamoney said that he had directed the Commissioner General of Prisons to investigate and report.
“I have also instructed to see that such things will not happen.”, he said.
—
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sinhala/news/story/2008/05/080513_boossa.shtml
“Last time I checked, Obama wasn’t the one unable to make a speech at the OU.”
Hardly a great loss, no? On the other hand, it’s a clear indictment against the Tamil diaspora and it’s thuggery and bullying of the OU. In the UK, the general Brit populace doesn’t seem to care either way.
“Abu Grahib was closed a long time ago… by your own admission, Gitmo is relatively harmless. Thus, your “examples” are either non-existent (outdated) or irrelevant. Got anything new Blacker?”
Abu Ghraib is still in operation, having been handed over to the Iraqis to continue what the US was caught red handed at
As a Christian, should you be lying in this manner, Rev Heshan, especially at Christmas? And could you show me where I said Gitmo was “harmless”? Are lies all you’ve got now, kid? Lol. The USSC has ruled Gitmo illegal under US law and a a violation of the Hague and Geneva Conventions (in other words, the people running it can be charged with war crimes) — one of the reasons the US is still refusing to sign up to the International Criminal Court in the Hague. Who’s hiding now, Heshan? 
“Of course, Blacker… having served in an organization given free license blah blah”
You’re repeating your earlier whining, Heshan
Still no evidence, eh? Thought not. Oh and could you send me a copy of this “license”? I’d love to keep it in my wallet with my driving license 
Then, the next time I’m copped for speeding, I can pull it out and say “LOOK, Judge Advocate General Disaster Heshan says in Blacker vs Heshan that I’m Bond, James Bond, and I’ve got a license to party!”
“Detainees attacked at Boosa prision”
One incident two years ago. Got anything recent?
And no one was even killed — isn’t that your criteria? And the minister said he was ensuring nothing like that was ever repeated.
Why is former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee (slated to run for
the White House in 2012) calling for Bradley Manning
to be executed?
Congratulations, Blacker, you actually brought up an intelligent point. Manning leaked military secrets in what amounts to treason . Treason is punishable by death in the USA. So Huckabee is justified. Assange merely received the info, plus, Assange is not a member of the military or any intelligence agency, therefore taking out Assange would be pointless, regardless of his ability to distribute the material. Manning is the source and that is what you go after. On the other hand, by publicly condemning Assange, it’s sending a message to him and his Wikileaks associates NOT to set foot in US soil again.
So what’s
your point, that the west was as barbaric as the east? I agree.
Congratulations, you just justified colonialism.
How
does that then make it cool for the west to colonize the east? And
this from a country that used to fry its criminals to death until a
couple of decades ago, and which still executes prisoners (the only
one in the western world FYI).
Are you saying your buddies in the SLA don’t hang prisoners upside down, attach electrodes to their scalp and pass current? What about the helicopter treatment? While I don’t agree with the electric chair way of being executed, it’s preferable to being killed and thrown in a lavatory pit, SLA style.
Bring back any *fond* memories, Blacker?
“FYI: slavery was legal
only in the South.” And? The Declaration of Independence
and the Bill of Rights applied to all the states, not just the
north, Einstein.
Obviously, Blacker, you have never heard of Quakers or the Underground Railroad or the Abolitionist Movement.
What you
did ask was why SL wasn’t a 1st world nation if Buddhism was so
great. I pointed out that many nations that are not Buddhist are
also still third world, and that some (like Thailand) are doing OK,
and that others (like Japan) were already 1st world.
Japan was not first world until after WWII.
Of course,
religion can impede a country’s development –
any religion, which is why it’s best
that religion be kept at home and out of government. “The
argument he develops is that Buddhism became the vehicle for the
assertion of Sinhalese nationalism by newer rural social groups
seeking political power who were excluded from the largely urban,
westernized power elite that inherited and first administered
independent Sri Lanka in 1948.” Perfectly true, the
author’s a smart man — but you’re not. The fault isn’t that of
Buddhism, but that of the exclusion of certain classes from the
administration. Buddhism was merely the vehicle at the time.
The fault has to do with the combination of Buddhism + Sinhalese nationalism, aka Sinhala Buddhism , which is in some respects a perversion of actual Buddhism. I have already pointed out the remedy – Western liberalism.
For the last 30 years it’s been Eelam.
Considering that the emergence of the LTTE was inevitable , the notion of Eelam is not necessarily bad.
So that they could be serfs to the colonial masters who now owned
their land instead of farming it for themselves?
You mean serfs of the type of S.W.R.D Bandaranaike and J.R. Jeyawardene who studied at Oxford?
“Congratulations, Blacker, you actually brought up an intelligent point.
I’m surprised you recognised it, Heshan. But it’s about time. You’ve had enough practice.
“Treason is punishable by death in the USA. So Huckabee is justified.”
But you said the info was “harmless”, Heshan, so why try to kill him? And why call for Assange to be assassinated? Wouldn’t that be illegal? Doesn’t having your leadership and media calling for lynchings (something the US has a lot of experience with) make the US sound like a 3rd world country?
I said, “So what’s your point, that the west was as barbaric as the east? I agree.” And you say, “Congratulations, you just justified colonialism.”
So you admit that it was barbaric of the west to colonise Asia and Africa. OK. So then you will also have to admit that it was this barbarism by the west that hampered progressive thought in the colonies. Great, it looks like your own natural development is back on track after the obstacles of your bigotry.
“Are you saying your buddies in the SLA don’t hang prisoners upside down, attach electrodes to their scalp and pass current? What about the helicopter treatment? While I don’t agree with the electric chair way of being executed, it’s preferable to being killed and thrown in a lavatory pit, SLA style.
Bring back any *fond* memories, Blacker?”
So your defence of US torture and barbarism is that it’s being done in the 3rd world???
The US isn’t a 3rd world nation, Heshan, hadn’t you noticed? You can’t use that excuse the way the Weerawanses of the world do. Isn’t the US supposed to set an example in democratic governance and human rights instead of emulating less developed nations? As I said, the US is the only country in the west to still execute criminals, but it’s in good company — Afghanistan, Syria, Ethiopia, Somalia, etc… and oh, yes, Singapore 
“Obviously, Blacker, you have never heard of Quakers or the Underground Railroad or the Abolitionist Movement.”
I have actually, but how does that change the fact that slavery was contrary to the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights? The organisations you mention worked to abolish slavery, but that doesn’t absolve the US from the crime any more than von Stauffenberg’s actions absolved the Nazis of the Holocaust.
“Japan was not first world until after WWII.”
Lol, ah the Heshan we all love — ignorant and illiterate, and happy with it. “From 1868, the Meiji period launched economic expansion. Meiji rulers embraced the concept of a free market economy and adopted British and North American forms of free enterprise capitalism. Japanese studied overseas and Western scholars were hired to teach in Japan. Many of today’s enterprises were founded at the time. Japan emerged as the most developed nation in Asia.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan#Economy) Long before either world war or any American occupation, Heshan. You can read more about this period here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_period — it’s called the Meiji Period, and some of the hallmarks of its tenure were things like “involvement of all classes in carrying out state affairs, “the revocation of sumptuary laws and class restrictions on employment”, and “an international search for knowledge to strengthen the foundations of imperial rule”. This at a time when the UK was an iron-clad class society, and the US had just stopped treating blacks like cattle and were beginning to wipe out the Red Indians and steal half of Mexico. Japan was 1st world long before the US
“The fault has to do with the combination of Buddhism + Sinhalese nationalism, aka Sinhala Buddhism , which is in some respects a perversion of actual Buddhism. I have already pointed out the remedy – Western liberalism.”
And I have shown you why your remedy won’t work.
“Considering that the emergence of the LTTE was inevitable , the notion of Eelam is not necessarily bad.”
Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Communism, all are not necessarily bad either; it’s the way that people go about practicing it that is the problem. National Socialism isn’t too bad in theory, but it gave us the Nazis; Communism seems perfect on paper too, but it gave us Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot; Christianity seems nice if you read the Bible, but it gave us the Crusades, the Inquisition, and an excuse for imperialism.
“You mean serfs of the type of S.W.R.D Bandaranaike and J.R. Jeyawardene who studied at Oxford?”
Exactly. That was what the west taught us. You’re finally beginning to understand.
“Congratulations, Blacker, you actually brought up an intelligent point. Manning leaked military secrets in what amounts to treason . Treason is punishable by death in the USA etc”
I’m surprised you’re capable of recognising an intelligent point, but then you’ve got a lot of practice these days. Death isn’t the only penalty for treason in the US, and since you claimed earlier that Manning’s info was harmless, why the call for the maximum penalty? Also, if as you say, Assange is innocent of these charges, why are leadership figures and elements of the media calling for him to be illegally detained, tortured, and even murdered without a trial? Is this the famous lynch mob that American blacks faced for so large a part of US history?
I asked, “So what’s your point, that the west was as barbaric as the east? I agree.” And you say, “Congratulations, you just justified colonialism.”
So then you agree that western barbarism was the reason for their colonisation of Asia and Africa. Great, it seems you’ve been able to get past the obstacle of your own bigotry and think more progressively. So now you’ve got a first-hand example of how natural progression works.
“Are you saying your buddies in the SLA don’t hang prisoners upside down, attach electrodes to their scalp and pass current? What about the helicopter treatment? While I don’t agree with the electric chair way of being executed, it’s preferable to being killed and thrown in a lavatory pit, SLA style.”
So your defence of American torture and capital punishment is to point out that it’s also being done in a 3rd world country??? You sound like Weerawanse justifying the GoSL’s conduct
Isn’t it the duty of the US as a supposed democratic and law-abiding nation, to set an example for the developing world instead of emulating it? As I said before, the US is the only nation in the western hemisphere to carry out the execution of criminals, along with nations such as Syria, Afghanistan, the Congo, Somalia, etc… oh, and of course, Singapore 
“Obviously, Blacker, you have never heard of Quakers or the Underground Railroad or the Abolitionist Movement.”
Oh, but I have. However, the struggle by these organisations to abolish slavery doesn’t absolve the USA of the crime any more than von Stauffenberg’s actions absolved the Nazis of the Holocaust.
“Japan was not first world until after WWII. “
Ah, the Heshan we know and love — ignorant and illiterate, and proud of it:D “From 1868, the Meiji period launched economic expansion. Meiji rulers embraced the concept of a free market economy and adopted British and North American forms of free enterprise capitalism. Japanese studied overseas and Western scholars were hired to teach in Japan. Many of today’s enterprises were founded at the time. Japan emerged as the most developed nation in Asia.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan#Economy) You can read more about the Meiji Period here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_period and you’ll find that some of the hallmarks of the era were “involvement of all classes in carrying out state affairs”, “the revocation class restrictions on employment”, and “an international search for knowledge to strengthen the foundations of imperial rule”. All of this long before either of the world wars, and at a time when Victorian England was in an iron-clad class society, and the Americans had moved from enslaving the blacks to wiping out the Red Indians.
“The fault has to do with the combination of Buddhism + Sinhalese nationalism, aka Sinhala Buddhism , which is in some respects a perversion of actual Buddhism.”
Hardly. To blame Sinhalese Buddhism without acknowledging the status quo that provided fruitful ground for its rise, is the same as blaming Tiger terrorism without acknowledging the Sinhalese racism that opened the door for it. All forms of nationalism rise in order to fill in a gap in the preceding order, be it Tamil nationalism, Sinhalese, or German.
“I have already pointed out the remedy – Western liberalism.”
And I have already pointed out why it will not be remedial. Can we move on now?
“Considering that the emergence of the LTTE was inevitable , the notion of Eelam is not necessarily bad. “
The emergence of Hitler was also inevitable; do you also consider the Third Reich to be not necessarily bad? Many ideals are not necessarily bad in theory — Christianity, Communism, Buddhism, Islam, Eelam — but when perverted result in the Crusades, the Inquisition, Mao and Stalin, 9/11, and the Tigers.
“You mean serfs of the type of S.W.R.D Bandaranaike and J.R. Jeyawardene who studied at Oxford?”
Exactly. That’s what colonialism taught us — not democracy, but that the poor and weak are there to serve the rich and powerful, a concept that died out in the west with the death of absolute monarchies, but which was kept alive here by the colonial empire.
China was
never colonized. The Boxer Rebellion was sparked by
anger against perceived offenses by “opium traders, political
invasion, economic manipulation, to missionary evangelism.”
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion)
China was certainly exploited by the West; since you consider exploitation to be the only relevant aspect of colonization, there is hardly any difference.
The Opium War was the first step designed to open China along with its markets and resources for exploitation. The War itself physically opened China. However, it was the aftermath of the War that exposed China, economically, socially, politically and ideologically to the outside world. The unequal treaties signed after the Opium War were the primary mechanisms to open China.
* Treaties and Their Effects
The Treaty of Nanjing (August, 1842) and supplement treaties (July and October 1843) signed between the British and the Chinese were the first of the humiliating “unequal treaties”. It radically increased the openings for trade in China and expanded the scope of British activities. The treaties opened five ports, Canton, Fuzhou, Xiamen, Linbou and Shanghai to conduct foreign trade as treaty ports. A war indemnity of 21 million Mexican dollars was to be paid by the Chinese government. Hong Kong was surrendered to the British, giving the British a base for further military, political and economical penetrations of China. The surrender of Hong Kong breached China’s territorial integrity. The Treaty stated that all custom duties must be negotiated with other countries. It therefore took away China’s control of its own customs. Furthermore, the import duties were lowered from 65% to 5%, this effectively shattered China’s home industries. The Nanjing Treaty abolished the system of Gong Hang. This allowed British merchants free trade in China. The Treaty exempted British nationals from Chinese law, thus permitting the operation of extraterritorial law on Chinese soil. Furthermore, any Chinese who either dealt with the British, or lived with them or were employed by them were also exempted from Chinese law. This made foreign concessions a haven for Chinese criminals. To Chinese officials, this clause also gave foreign invaders the legal right to setup and protect their spy and criminal networks. The treaties also allowed every treaty port to have one British military ship. Thus for the first time foreign warships were allowed free entrance to Chinese waters. The Nanjing Treaty allowed British merchants to bring families to live in the treaty ports. Furthermore, it also stated that Chinese local authorities must provide housing or other foundations which British merchants could rent. The Chinese officials believed that such a system would eliminate disputes in the treaty ports, and were quite happy to agree to it. To their surprise, this system was used to establish concession areas by foreigners in the treaty ports. The Treaty of Nanjing included the so called “most favoured nation” clause. This in effect gave the British any privileges extorted from China by any other country. The “most favoured nation” clause later was extended to all the foreign countries that dealt with China, giving all Western countries that dealt with China the same rights as the British.
The Treaty of Nanjing and supplement treaties opened China to the world. China became a semi-feudal semi-colonial state. Its influences were far reaching and long lasting. However because the Treaty of Nanjing was designed to obtain free trade, its economic effects were the most severe.
http://historyliterature.homestead.com/files/extended.html#The%20Opening%20of%20China
But Japan wasn’t colonized by the US; it was occupied as a result
of its own military attack on the US — an attack spurred by the
unfair trade practices of the US in the Pacific. Japan had to be
remade by the US because they had fire-bombed and nuked it in the
first place.
Only two cities were nuked; the total casualties amounted to less than 200K. The Japanese economy and government were restructured along Western models. Funny you whine about the Japanese being untreated fairly. If the USA hadn’t stopped them, you would be speaking Japanese right now.
Germany was also remade by the US — are you
suggesting that America colonized Germany?
Only West Germany. East Germany is still lagging, so much for “traditional development!”
I said
natural, not traditional. Natural development is the method in
which a nation develops from a feudal society to a modern
government, along paths that suit its own unique culture and
geography. For instance, both Thailand, Japan and the UK — very
different and unique nations — developed into parliamentary
monarchies, but both did so in their own unique way.
Epic fail, Blacker. Do you know what the “UK” even stands for. Scotland and Ireland were at war with Britain for more than 700 years until an essentially federalist solution was agreed upon. If SL was landlocked and the war was fought with primitive weapons (as opposed to the modern ones that finally gave GOSL an overwhelming edge), something similar would have occurred there. A monarchist-type government is not the ideal form of government for a modern capitalist society, which makes your “natural development” theory go up in smoke. Modern society is about having a government subject to checks-and-balances, and having an economy that function according to the principle of laissez-faire. The “strongman” notion is a myth… the “strongman” will rob, plunder, and vanish, as in Africa. Political power needs to be redistributed over several levels of government for a society to be successful.
In contrast, the weaker colonized nations then had their
own indigenous systems replaced by alien ones to which they were
forced to adapt, systems and social strata that was at odds with
their own, but with which they had no choice.
Hong Kong and Singapore were colonized. How do you explain their success? Blaming everything on colonialism is nothing more than an exercise in denial. These “indigenous systems” – I’ve already explained in SL that before the colonials came most people were fishing, engaged in paddy cultivation, or climbing coconut trees. Whether you like it or not, it was the Christian colonials who broke the trend. Free public education and the ability to move up the social ladder were European Christian ideals at odds with the rigid class/caste system in SL. The Europeans were also the ones who opened up the economies of these places to the outside world for trade.
So instead of
naturally developing into modern systems, the pre-colonial systems
were merely petrified while the colonial systems continued to
develop along lines that suited the Europeans rather than the
Asians and Africans.
And your point is?
So for instance when universal franchise
arrived in England, it was reserved for the masters in Asia, and
not the servants, resulting that the latter had no experience of
democracy until independence — so while the UK was a functioning
democracy by the first half of the 20th century, its colonial
subjects were living in an absolute monarchy.
You can blame that on people like Anagarika Dharmapala.
So when colonization
was then removed, there had been no natural development of
democratic principles, human rights, gender rights or anything else
in the interim centuries.
Based on what – the denial of universal franchise? LOL.
We had to start from scratch, with only
theory to follow. Is it then any surprise that horrendous mistakes
were — and continue to be — made?
Mistake = zero progress since the colonialists left? LOL.
“Are you referring to Mao’s “Cultural Revolution”? Or
perhaps you mean the 23 million Chinese slaughtered by Japan during
WWII, for the glory of the Emperor blah blah” Great
tragedies have been visited on many nations, regardless of
colonization. The white genocide of the Red Indians, the genocide
of indigenous populations in Australia, the genocide of Congolese
by the Belgians (as many as 10 million killed) in the late 19th
century, the Holocaust, Stalin, Mao, the former Jugoslavia, Rwanda,
the Rape of Nanking, Hiroshima & Nagasaki, My lai, Abu
Ghraib, Black July, etc. These have been carried out across the
world, by former colonies and former colonials, Asians and
Europeans, Africans and Americans — Christians, Muslims,
Buddhists, Communists, whatever. What has this got to do with our
discussion?
Last time I checked, the “Cultural Revolution” was 100% Chinese-directed, as was the brains behind it. Therefore, I can put “Cultural Revolution” on the “natural progression” list
.
“China was certainly exploited by the West; since you consider exploitation to be the only relevant aspect of colonization, there is hardly any difference.”
All of Asia was exploited by the west at some point; some of it still is. Where did I say that exploitation was the only relevant aspect. I told you there were many short term advantages to colonization and many long term disadvantages. It is the latter that is relevant today since the short term gains have been outlived. Is this all too complex for your level of intellect and education? I am having to explain things to you in single syllables it seem.
“The Opium War was the first step designed to open China along with its markets and resources for exploitation. The War itself physically opened China. However, it was the aftermath of the War that exposed China, economically, socially, politically and ideologically to the outside world. The unequal treaties signed after the Opium War were the primary mechanisms to open China.”
“Only two cities were nuked; the total casualties amounted to less than 200K. “
Only 200,000 huh?
You’re pretty dismissive of atrocities committed by the US; Red Indians — only land, so who cares. Slavery — legal and constitutional. My Lai — so long ago. Hiroshima & Nagasaki — what’s a few hundred thousand. You actually sound like Wimal Weerawanse and the JHU 
what’s a few thousand Tamils, no?
“The Japanese economy and government were restructured along Western models. Funny you whine about the Japanese being untreated fairly. If the USA hadn’t stopped them, you would be speaking Japanese right now.”
So was Germany’s. I told you that 20th century western influences on a nation’s natural progress was minimal because the great ideas and ideals had already spread far and wide by then. As I told you when you childishly brought up the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, these short occupations were but a blink in the eye of history, and can’t be compared to the centuries-long influence of colonisation. Japanese and German resources weren’t simply stolen and whisked away to the mother country, nor were those countries ruled by the occupiers; after a few years of military administration they were allowed to conduct their own affairs. Are you seriously unable to comprehend the difference between this and colonisation? Even with your pedestrian intellect, it should be clear. As for the US stopping Japan, if not for the US, Japan wouldn’t have needed to go to war, so I’m sorry if I don’t kiss America’s arse in gratitude as you do. Same goes for Germany. WW2 wouldn’t have happened if not for the western allies short-sightedness. Also, ask anyone in Asia today whether they’d rather be in a Japanese-influenced world or an American one, and you won’t find many US fans — your economy is struggling, your manufacturing is dead, your people are fat and greedy, and no one buys your products.
“Only West Germany. East Germany is still lagging, so much for “traditional development!”
I think you mean western Germany and eastern. And the latter is lagging economically because it was under the Soviet system — and the latter was probably the closest thing to colonisation in the 20th century. If 50 years of Soviet rule could still be affecting a country 20 years later, you might get an idea of the impact of centuries of colonisation.
“o you know what the “UK” even stands for. Scotland and Ireland were at war with Britain for more than 700 year blah blah”
[Edited out] It’s because Scotland, Ireland etc were defeated that their peoples needed to look overseas for opportunity, staffing the empire. Federal??
England itself was hardly a democracy and the Scottish parliament was controlled by the English crown.
“If SL was landlocked and the war was fought with primitive weapons (as opposed to the modern ones that finally gave GOSL an overwhelming edge), something similar would have occurred there.”
Ha ha really? If SL was landlocked it would have become a parliamentary monarchy? How do you figure that out, Einstein? The UK isn’t landlocked either, and both England and Scotland used similar weapons, just like the Army and the Tigers. Where do you get your history from — Braveheart?
“A monarchist-type government is not the ideal form of government for a modern capitalist society, which makes your “natural development” theory go up in smoke. Modern society is about having a government subject to checks-and-balances, and having an economy that blah blah”
Well I don’t really care that you don’t like the British or Japanese systems, and given that both nations are more successful than yours, neither does anyone else. Perhaps you should write ‘em a letter in your own unique way stating that they’re not modern societies. I’m sure there’ll be much wrist slashing
“Hong Kong and Singapore were colonized. How do you explain their success?”
[Edited out] Hong Kong is an autonomous city (a real one, [Edited out]), administered as a city-state by China. Singapore IS a city/state.
“I’ve already explained in SL that before the colonials came most people were fishing, engaged in paddy cultivation, or climbing coconut trees. Whether you like it or not, it was the Christian colonials who broke the trend.”
Exactly my point. Have you got it now? Back in Holland, England, Belgium etc most people were fishing, farming, or killing their neighbours. When they ran outta space and neighbours, they came over here and grabbed ours.
“Free public education and the ability to move up the social ladder were European Christian ideals at odds with the rigid class/caste system in SL. The Europeans were also the ones who opened up the economies of these places to the outside world for trade.”
We’ve been through all this before, heshan. When I teach you something new, I expect you to go home and digest it, not come back and repeat the same ignorant mantra. There was neither free education, nor the ability to move up any ladders in the class-ridden societies of Europe’s empires at the start of the colonial adventure. These things were part of their own natural development, and while these things progressed in the mother countries, they were suppressed for obvious reasons by the masters in their colonies. I hope you’re taking notes, [Edited out], so that I don’t have to repeat the lesson. Also, the Europeans didn’t “open up” the colonies for trade as you so amusingly phrase it; they acquired all the native resources for themselves and traded these for their own profit. The natives got nothing. Its called stealing. Very Christian that.
“And your point is?”
That ideas such as universal franchise, democracy, and gender equality didn’t begin to develop in the colonies until after independence. How many shots at this do you need, Heshan?
“you can blame that on people like Anagarika Dharmapala.”
Clutching at straws again aren’t you? Dharmapala wasn’t ruling SL, the British were.
I said, “So when colonisation was then removed, there had been no natural development of democratic principles, human rights, gender rights or anything else
Are you stoned again or is English beyond your grasp?
in the interim centuries.” And you ask, “Based on what – the denial of universal franchise?”
“Mistake = zero progress since the colonialists left?”
It took the US almost a century to even make a pretence of implementing the Declaration of Independence, over 150 years for universal franchise and gender equality, almost two centuries for ethnic equality — in our 60-odd years of independence we have achieved all of this, the majority right from the outset; it has taken the US over 200 years to have a black president, and it has never had a female one — in contrast, we had a female PM (the world’s first female national leader) within 20 years of independence as well as a female president.
“Last time I checked, the “Cultural Revolution” was 100% Chinese-directed, as was the brains behind it. Therefore, I can put “Cultural Revolution” on the “natural progression” list”
There is no list
Progression is a road that nations travel down to create the ideal society. Sometimes the road is blocked by our own devices — slavery, xenophobia, communism, religious extremism — and sometimes it is blocked by external devices such as colonialism, but the sooner countries overcome these the faster the progress.
*having an economy that functions
All of Asia was exploited by the west at some point; some of it still is. Where did I say that exploitation was the only relevant aspect. I told you there were many short term advantages to colonization and many long term disadvantages. It is the latter that is relevant today since the short term gains have been outlived.
And Asians never exploited Asians? And Westerners never expoloited Westerners? Try harder Blacker. Had the Japanese conquered Asia as they intended to, the outcome would have far, far worse than anything you blame colonialism for.
——-
In some cases, flesh was cut from living people: another Indian POW, Lance Naik Hatam Ali (later a citizen of Pakistan), testified that in New Guinea:
the Japanese started selecting prisoners and every day one prisoner was taken out and killed and eaten by the soldiers. I personally saw this happen and about 100 prisoners were eaten at this place by the Japanese. The remainder of us were taken to another spot 50 miles [80 km] away where 10 prisoners died of sickness. At this place, the Japanese again started selecting prisoners to eat. Those selected were taken to a hut where their flesh was cut from their bodies while they were alive and they were thrown into a ditch where they later died.[56]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#Use_of_chemical_weapons
What are the short term gains that have been outlived? I’ve already explained how it was the Europeans that overthrew the caste/class system… it was the Europeans who promoted gender equality. It was the Europeans who laid miles and miles of railroad tracks, and imported the trains to run on them. It was the Europeans that built hospitals, schools, roads, etc. It was the British who introduced tea to the island and imported Indian Tamils to pick the tea, after the Kandyans refused. Do you have any clue how much tea grosses in annual net revenue, Blacker? A minimum of 1 billion (USD). No native person since Independence has come up with an enterprise that’s nearly as profitable. In simple terms, Blacker, the Europeans laid the foundations for capitalism in SL, India, Singapore, and elsewhere. They also tried to setup a European system of government. The problem in SL is that the institutions and infrastructure which the British left behind have hardly been modernized. Look at this train, Blacker:
http://www.diggles.com/pgs/2005/tsunami_train.jpg
Does that look like a modern train to you? Modern trains are not open to the elements. Furthermore, the world has moved beyond simple trains. Subways, speed trains, luxury trains, etc. S. Lanka is still stuck on a stupid train that can’t handle 20 ft high tsunami waves. I would be interested in knowing how many miles of track have been laid since Independence, as well as how many new routes added. I can’t prove it, but I bet the total figures would come to hardly anything. From trains, we move to education. The system is still largely the same, minus international schools. What about government? Even the British have gone with federalism, but S. Lanka clings to the original Westminister model in its entirety, with all power concentrated at the Center. The roads that the British built are still there. The health system is in disarray – good luck if you’re poor and can’t afford a private hospital. What about economics? The vasy majority of people are still engaged in small-scale farming – other than building a few dams, GOSL has invested very little in the development of areas outside of the Western Province. Even the Army is modeled along British lines.
re you serious? You don’t know the difference between colonisation and trade monopolies??? Trade agreements, however unfair, don’t impact a country’s core culture. It can open a country up to outside influence as you say, but being open is not the same as colonisation lol.
Haha, it goes well beyond a trade monopoly, Blacker. You seemed to have miss this line: However, it was the aftermath of the War that exposed China, economically, socially, politically and ideologically to the outside world. This exposure was dictated by the demands of the West along Western terms , which is very similar to the situation one would have found with a Western colony.
Only 200,000 huh?
You’re pretty dismissive of atrocities committed by the US; Red Indians — only land, so who cares. Slavery — legal and constitutional. My Lai — so long ago. Hiroshima & Nagasaki — what’s a few hundred thousand. You actually sound like Wimal Weerawanse and the JHU 
what’s a few thousand Tamils, no?
And if the nukes hadn’t been dropped (after Japan refused to surrender) and 200 million people died in the ensuing land invasion because the Japanese were mobilizing civilians to fight, what would your reaction have been? By the way, you seem to be entirely unaware of Japanese atrocities; perhaps if the USA had allowed the Japanese to make a concubine out of your grandmother, you might be singing a different tune. Red Indians, blah blah blah, the average Red Indian of today has more educational and career opportunities than the average Sinhalese villager. Ever heard of affirmative action, Blacker? There are quotas for Red Indians in everything from medical school admissions to corporate hiring.
“And Asians never exploited Asians? And Westerners never expoloited Westerners? Try harder Blacker. Had the Japanese conquered Asia as they intended to, the outcome would have far, far worse than anything you blame colonialism for.”
We’re not discussing exploitation, Professor Heshan.
Try and stay focused. We’re discussing why the 3rd world hasn’t progressed as far as the west has in terms of global ideals, and we’re discovering that colonisation handicapped the development of those ideals in the colonies. Don’t get lost among the trees as usual [edited out]
“In some cases, flesh was cut from living people blah blah”
Old hat, Heshan. Look at what the US is doing in Abu Ghraib just a couple years ago. Rape, pedophilia, murder, torture — all sanctioned from above, and you have to go back to WW2 to find anything on the Japs? Try harder, kid.
“What are the short term gains that have been outlived? I’ve already explained how it was the Europeans that overthrew the caste/class system…”
And replaced it with their own — ie if you were white you ruled, if you weren’t you didn’t; if you spoke the language of the crown, you got ahead, if you didn’t you didn’t. Sound familiar?
“it was the Europeans who promoted gender equality.”
Correct. It didn’t matter if you were a man or a woman, as long as you were brown, you were equally worthless and disenfranchised
“It was the Europeans who laid miles and miles of railroad tracks, and imported the trains to run on them.”
Correct again. So that the Europeans could get their loot down to the ports and off to Europe.
“No native person since Independence has come up with an enterprise that’s nearly as profitable.”
Nor one so environmentally damaging. Tea was planted because it was profitable for the Brits, not because they liked us. The same goes for every other thing they created here. If the Europeans hadn’t created those things, we would have eventually, just as Japan, China, and Thailand have. That’s why I said the long-term disadvantages far outweigh the short-term advantages.
“The problem in SL is that the institutions and infrastructure which the British left behind have hardly been modernized.
These things are being worked on, and will gradually improve now that the war’s over, but they’re hardly the things that have held us back since independence are they?
“Does that look like a modern train to you? Modern trains are not open to the elements.”
They are in the tropics
You can spend money on heating and airconditioning once other things are sorted.
“Even the British have gone with federalism, but S. Lanka clings to the original Westminister model in its entirety, with all power concentrated at the Center.”
Britain isn’t federal
It is governed from the centre — you can have devolution without decentralization. Sigh. I’m having to actually educate you, don’t I?
“Haha, it goes well beyond a trade monopoly, Blacker. You seemed to have miss this line: However, it was the aftermath of the War that exposed China, economically, socially, politically and ideologically to the outside world.”
It did not. China remained closed to the outside world for over a century after the Boxer Rebellion, and arguably still is. European influence was restricted to certain port cities such as Shanghai and Hong Kong. Chinese rulers controlled China, and it wasn’t a colony.
“And if the nukes hadn’t been dropped (after Japan refused to surrender) and 200 million people died in the ensuing land invasion because the Japanese were mobilizing civilians to fight blah blah”
Lol 200 million??? Get a grip, Heshan. But seriously, there are always excuses for atrocities
Just ask the JHU.
“By the way, you seem to be entirely unaware of Japanese atrocities blah blah”
Now now, Heshan, we’ve been through this — you can’t justify your own crimes by pointing the finger at others.
“Red Indians, blah blah blah, the average Red Indian of today has more educational and career opportunities than the average Sinhalese villager.”
You mean the Native Americans should be grateful that the whites stole all their land, killed most of their people and then gave them a few books to read and a reservation to live on and allowed them some (wow) “quotas”??? Right on, Custer! Teach them pesky redskins a lesson
You’re Sinhalese, right? I’m beginning to see why you sound so much like Comrade Wimal 
Japanese and German resources weren’t simply stolen and whisked away to the mother country, nor were those countries ruled by the occupiers;
What are these resources that were “whisked away to the mother countries…” – they were traded, what’s wrong with that? Back then, the commodities were probably more valuable than they are now (considering how more players have now entered the market) but I see no long-term disadvantage to the colonial nation. Germany was not ruled by occupiers? Hahaha… Germany was divided into six zones; the Soviet influence is still there today, even though Germany is technically the most powerful Western European nation – East Germany is still lagging behind economically.
As for the US stopping Japan, if not for the US, Japan wouldn’t have needed to go to war
Wow, that has to be the dumbest statement of the millenium. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor because they didn’t want the US Navy to interfere with Japanese plans for invading the Dutch East Indies. It had nothing to do with protecting “shipping lanes” as you idiotically claimed earlier. The Japanese were planning on building an Empire regardless of any war with the USA. They had their eyes set on certain territories which did not belong to them :
“The overall intention was to enable Japan to conquer Southeast Asia without interference.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor
Also, ask anyone in Asia today whether they’d rather be in a Japanese-influenced world or an American one, and you won’t find many US fans — your economy is struggling, your manufacturing is dead, your people are fat and greedy, and no one buys your products.
In that case, you could’ve gone on your 30-yr anti-terrorism crusade with spear and dagger…
As far as the economy goes, yep, Mahinda is doing his best to beg from China, but we all know about Chinese *generosity*, a la Russel Peters. There were no Chinese ships in SL after the tsunami, Blacker. When a big disaster hits, good luck counting on your Chinese buddies. As for a “Japanese-influenced world”, the Japanese are innovators, not creators. Where did all those fancy Sony/Toshiba/etc. gadgets come from… that’s right Blacker, the USA or Europe. The speed train, the semiconductor, the cellphone, satellites, television, GPS, laptops, robots, automobiles, the Japanese even copy Western cartoons (most of the characters are White). And don’t assume your other buddy China is any better.
It’s because Scotland, Ireland etc were defeated that their peoples needed to look overseas for opportunity, staffing the empire. Federal??
England itself was hardly a democracy and the Scottish parliament was controlled by the English crown.
I don’t know what you mean by “defeated.” Ever heard of the IRA?
For all practical purposes, Scotland is an independent entity today. The only thing it can’t do is raise its own army. Northern Ireland is still fighting for its independence.
Ha ha really? If SL was landlocked it would have become a parliamentary monarchy?
If SL was landlocked and the war had been fought with primitive weapons, the duration would easily have exceeded a 100 years. Chechyna, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq – all are landlocked, and these conflicts never had a clear end in sight.
Hong Kong is an autonomous city (a real one, [Edited out]), administered as a city-state by China. Singapore IS a city/state.
Nevertheless, both were colonized, Blacker. The British used the same methods in those places as they did everywhere else. You still find many Indian-origin Tamils occupying high positions in the Singapore civil service. The Chinese – who actually rule Singapore – were also imported. Doesn’t sound like any “natural progression”, to me. Yet the outcome can’t be denied. Still wanna blame colonialism, Blacker?
Exactly my point. Have you got it now? Back in Holland, England, Belgium etc most people were fishing, farming, or killing their neighbours. When they ran outta space and neighbours, they came over here and grabbed ours.
They (Europeans) had many motives. The primary one was trade. Another was to protect trade routes. Another was to spread Christianity. It’s rather foolish to presume that colonization was based on exploitation alone.
There was neither free education, nor the ability to move up any ladders in the class-ridden societies of Europe’s empires at the start of the colonial adventure. These things were part of their own natural development, and while these things progressed in the mother countries, they were suppressed for obvious reasons by the masters in their colonies. I hope you’re taking notes, [Edited out], so that I don’t have to repeat the lesson. Also, the Europeans didn’t “open up” the colonies for trade as you so amusingly phrase it; they acquired all the native resources for themselves and traded these for their own profit. The natives got nothing. Its called stealing. Very Christian that.
Nonsense, Blacker. Many of the prominent families you find today trace their success back to what their forefathers were able to accomplish specfically during the colonial era.
Extracts from ‘Nobodies to Somebodies – The Rise of the Colonial Bourgeoisie in Sri Lanka’
Kumari Jayawardena, 2000, Social Scientists’ Association and Sanjiva Books. ISBN 955-9102-26-5
The book gives a detail account of the rise of the Lankan bourgeoisie during the vast economic changes of the 19th and the early part of the 20th century, and traces the rise and fall of the enterprising communities through the economic gains made in the liquor industry, rents, estates, conversions and plantations etc. Some interesting extracts from the book are highlighted as follows:-
Page 21– Accumulation through land ownership
Members of another group of Sri Lankans, who were to form an important part of the emergent 19th century bourgeoisie, were landowners, whose holdings provided them with a means of accumulation and later, a basis for expanded growth in the plantation era. Just as the monopolistic policies of the Dutch and the British had located a stratum of officials in the cinnamon industry and endowed them with a basis for growth, their administrative policies also created a group of Sri Lankan officials, called Mudaliyars. Peebles (1973:1) has defined them as a n economic and social status group “mediating between the alien rulers and the bulk of the indigenous population” performing functions that the foreign rulers were “unable or unwilling to do”.
Page 22 – Accumulation through land ownership
The Mudaliyars were not aristocrats in the strict sense of the term, since they were not descendants of a nobility that had derived power and patronage from the earlier Kings of Sri Lanka. They were, rather, Low-country Sinhalese who first rose to real prominence during colonial rule, with a record of loyal service to the Portuguese, Dutch and subsequently to the British rulers. The land, as well as privileges and titles they thereby acquired had enabled them to assume a “feudal” lifestyle and establish their position in the Low-country as the “leading” Sinhalese rulers who had created an “aristocracy” for their own purpose.
Page 148-149 :
“Nevertheless for many years previously rubber was a good investment for Sri Lankans and, by 1917, there were 65 local owners with over 100 acres each. Those who owned over 700 acres included many who belonged by birth or marriage to families who had made the initial accumulation in liquor – notably Henry Amarasuriya, Dr WA de Silva, AJR de Soysa, Bastian Fernando, Dr Marcus Fernando and Charles Pieris (Roberts 1979:180). By 1927 those owning over 1,000 acres were also part of the liquor bourgeoisie – Mrs Henry Amarasuriya, Dr WA de Silva, LWA de Soysa, CEA Dias, Dr Marcus Fernando, H Watson Peiris, and JLC Peiris. Other large rubber owners of over 1,000 acres, included men and women of all castes and ethnicities – namely Fred Abeysundera, E.C. De Fonseka, A.E.de Silva Sr., Daniel Fernando, E.L Ibrahim Lebbe Marikar, Alice Kotelawela, A.J. Vanderpoorten and E.G. Adamaly.”
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~lkawgw/nobtosom.html
What about education, Blacker? The stats speak for themselves:
Thus by the beginning of the 20th Century the opportunities for education in Sri Lanka were numerous with Government schools, Missionary schools, Buddhist schools, Hindu schools and Muslim schools.
* In 1921 , the total population was – 4, 504,549
* Number of children attending School – 404,430
* Percentage of children attending school – 09%
http://www.moe.gov.lk/Education_his_1.3.html
”What are these resources that were “whisked away to the mother countries…” – they were traded, what’s wrong with that?”
[Edited out] The Brits traded with us for our tea and spices???
The Europeans came in and took the land by force, planted what they liked, paid locals to tend the crops, and then took it away for their own consumption, or sold it to others for their own profit. In Africa, they didn’t even bother growing stuff, they just dug up the gold and diamonds and took it away. It’s like me walking into a person’s home, telling their [Edited] mum, “Look, lady, you’re gonna cook me three square meals a day from the stuff you grow in your garden, and I’m gonna pay you ten bucks a month for it. Oh, and I’m also gonna teach your son [Edited out] to speak my language, so that when you kick it, he can take over the job. And you’re gonna be grateful for it.” 
Still don’t understand how colonization works, do you [Edited out]? Who do you think was running the East India Company – the Salvation Army? You seem to come up with some unique definitions for English words – I never knew “trade” and “stealing” were synonymous! Do the Ten Commandments say “Thou shall not trade”, Heshan?
”Germany was not ruled by occupiers? Hahaha… Germany was divided into six zones; the Soviet influence is still there today, even though Germany is technically the most powerful Western European nation – East Germany is still lagging behind economically.”
[Edited out.] Allied administration of Germany was only for four years; by 1949, West Germany was a sovereign nation again, a member of the UN and NATO, with its own constitution, parliament, economy, and military. Soviet Communism hobbled every nation it touched, and they will all have to run to catch up with the open economy after the Soviet collapse. If the USSR had allowed East Germany to have its head, it wouldn’t be lagging behind. As I said before, the iron curtain and communism is the closest to colonization as is possible to get in the 20th century. Even then, the impact was primarily economic; eastern Germany isn’t lagging that far behind in other ways – even the chancellor is an “Ossi”. On the other hand, Chinese Communism hasn’t collapsed, but is going through a transformation in the far east, with China leading the way, and Indochina following. They will probably never be open economies in the near future, but neither will they go through the shock therapy of eastern Europe. Direct Allied administration of Japan ended in 1952, after seven years, after which Japan too became a sovereign nation with all of the aspects that Germany was given – yes, including a military J Japan’s biggest economic boom began in 1960, eight years after Allied administration had ended, and both countries have far surpassed the US as economic powerhouses.
”Wow, that has to be the dumbest statement of the millenium. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor because they didn’t want the US Navy to interfere with Japanese plans for invading the Dutch East Indies. It had nothing to do with protecting “shipping lanes” as you idiotically claimed earlier. The Japanese were planning on building an Empire regardless of any war with the USA.”
Now before you embark on a righteous crusade, Heshan, I’m not in any way saying that Japan was in the right to go to war, however, you must be pretty immature if you think US problems with Japan began with Pearl Harbour
It began with US economic collapse in the Great Depression which began in 1929. American collapse destroyed Japan’s biggest export market for silk, which in turn threw Japan into its own collapse. Already in turmoil, this was the last straw, and like the European nations of the previous centuries, Japan turned to colonization as a resource – Korea, China, and other countries on continental Asia. Unhappy with this, the impotent League of Nations condemned Japan, which in turn withdrew from the league. Realizing the league was unable to do anything, the US took on its favourite role – global policeman – and in 1939 broke its trade treaties with Japan and began to restrict essential shipments of oil and steel. By 1941, the US was in a full scale embargo that was strangling Japan. The latter was trapped – to withdraw from its Asian colonies meant economic ruin, and to stay meant industrial starvation; the only choice was to look for oil in other areas, basically European and American colonies and protectorates such as British Borneo and Malaya, the Dutch East Indies, and the Philippines. To do this would mean war with the US and Europe, and since the US Navy was the only real threat in the east Pacific, Japan struck first, demonstrating in one text-book attack that the aircraft carrier was the new queen of naval warfare.
”They had their eyes set on certain territories which did not belong to them.”
You mean like like the European empires which ran on territories that didn’t belong to them?
”Where did all those fancy Sony/Toshiba/etc. gadgets come from… that’s right Blacker, the USA or Europe. The speed train, the semiconductor, the cellphone, satellites, television, GPS, laptops, robots, automobiles, the Japanese even copy Western cartoons (most of the characters are White). And don’t assume your other buddy China is any better.”
[Edited out] The US invented a few thinks 50 years ago, and the Japanese and Chinese figured out how to make them more efficient and cheaper. Meantime, the Europeans make stuff that is classier, more desirable, better engineered, and easier to repair. The US is a dinosaur when it comes to manufacturing anything that the world wants to buy – their cars are ugly, slow and expensive, and handle like trucks – nobody wants ‘em, except Americans who don’t know any better. The same goes for 90% of American products – they can be made cheaper, better, and prettier elsewhere.
”I don’t know what you mean by “defeated.” Ever heard of the IRA? For all practical purposes, Scotland is an independent entity today. The only thing it can’t do is raise its own army. Northern Ireland is still fighting for its independence.”
For all practical purposes Scotland is a part of England J The latter make a pretext of it by letting the Scots have their own sports teams (along with anthem, flag, and a few other harmless trappings), but that’s about it – Scotland has no real control of anything that an independent nation or even a federal state would have. Whatever autonomy Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have has been received in the late 20th century, when it was given its own parliament in 1998. At the outset of colonization, they were ruled by England, which is the point in any discussion on the subject. [Edited out] England realized that it couldn’t rule a nation that had to be perpetually conquered, and so provided an opportunity for the disaffected Scots, Irish and Welsh via the empire. Ever wonder why plantations throughout Asia still have Scottish names and not English?
”If SL was landlocked and the war had been fought with primitive weapons, the duration would easily have exceeded a 100 years. Chechyna, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq – all are landlocked, and these conflicts never had a clear end in sight.”
Yes, and if the moon was made of cheese, we could nuke it and have a big fondue, but it’s not is it? Your fantasies are all very entertaining, Heshan. [Edited out] I’d rather stick to the subject J Vietnam lasted a mere ten years, Afghanistan even less. Chechnya isn’t over of course, but it’s not much of a war anymore. Our war lasted 30 years, three times as long as your landlocked wars
Oh, and the UK isn’t landlocked either. Do you actually have a point, Heshan [Edited out]?
”Nevertheless, both were colonized, Blacker. The British used the same methods in those places as they did everywhere else. You still find many Indian-origin Tamils occupying high positions in the Singapore civil service. The Chinese – who actually rule Singapore – were also imported. Doesn’t sound like any “natural progression”, to me. Yet the outcome can’t be denied. Still wanna blame colonialism, Blacker?”
The point is, Heshan, that neither Singapore nor Hong Kong existed as nations prior to European colonization, and Hong Kong still doesn’t. It’s now an autonomous city, but part of the China – it isn’t a nation. Singapore didn’t even exist as a nation before the Brits left – it was just one more Malayan city. So how can there be natural progress in a country that doesn’t exist?
Both Singapore and Hong Kong owe their existence to British colonization, unlike most other former colonies. The anomaly goes further with both cities – unlike normal cities, Hong Kong can control who enters it and who lives there and works there – it’s almost like being a nation divested of its poor, and uneducated; in other words, a fat-free society. Singapore is the same. Those conditions don’t exist in normal nations, and the only way to replicate that environment is to make every Asian city an autonomous closed population. Unfortunately, that’ll leave a few billion rural folk behind. Autonomous cities can’t be the norm in any nation, they always have to be the exception. As for Singapore importing the Chinese – they import everything, Heshan, even the water; today, LKY has to keep importing Indians, Sri Lankans, and white folks to keep things ticking because the locals haven’t the ability, creating a glass ceiling that’s under a lot of pressure from below. You can do that in nations where there’s no democracy (remember the UAE?), and you don’t have to weather an election every few years, but not in normal countries. It’s why I’ve been telling you that Singapore isn’t a useable example. [Edited out.]
”They (Europeans) had many motives. The primary one was trade. Another was to protect trade routes. Another was to spread Christianity. It’s rather foolish to presume that colonization was based on exploitation alone.”
Everything has a number of reasons, Heshan; nothing’s black and white. But the primary reason was expansion; it’s the primary reason for human immigration right back to the stone age. When your immediate surroundings cannot support your numbers and needs, you move out, conquer weaker nations, and replenish yourself. Trade was when the European nations came up against other nations who they couldn’t afford to go to war with, either temporarily or permanently. Many of the empires arrived to trade, then decided it was easier and more profitable to steal. Of course, a good moral reason was needed to cover this theft, and convince the good church-goers at home that it wasn’t “exploitation alone” as you say J Spreading Christianity and “civilizing the heathens” was a very convenient cause, one that it seems you’re still buying into, centuries later.
”Nonsense, Blacker. Many of the prominent families you find today trace their success back to what their forefathers were able to accomplish specfically during the colonial era.”
Of course. The British Empire needed the colonies to function, and I’ll admit the Brits and Dutch were not as bare-facedly exploitive as the Portuguese, Spanish, German, and French empires were. We were relatively lucky in comparison to what was done to the unfortunate natives of the other empires. The Brits knew it was easier to delegate, it saved time and effort on their part, and left the whites to deal with more important things. So they had their tame natives – English-educated Tamils, Burghers, and a few Sinhalese – and it is these Judenrat that these families trace back to.
”What about education, Blacker? The stats speak for themselves: Percentage of children attending school – 09%”
Er… what? 09% is a good percentage of kids in school?
Anyway, I already told you what the advantages of education were in the empire – it made sure that the natives were educated in the ways of their masters – history was English history, English literature, and so on. Religion was the only local things taught. All part of preparing the next generation for service to the empire.
Heshan / David Blacker,
Your exchanges now have nothing at all to do with the article above. Kindly continue your discussions using other means and on other fora.