It was no easy task to compile this. Only a handful ordinary citizens would have the expertise to search for this information online, or elsewhere. There is no easy record retrieval of the President’s attendance in Parliament on its official website. But what is immediately obvious when the scattered media reports are taken as a whole is that the 18th Amendment has in no way at all contributed to a more accountable Executive. ”

Excerpt from ‘Months after the 18th Amendment: Is the Executive really more accountable to Parliament?’, http://groundviews.org/2011/06/11/months-after-the-18th-amendment-is-the-executive-really-more-accountable-to-parliament/

Japan under the Yamato dynsaty would be a great time to go back to! I am thinking, Mervyn can be one of the Daimyos!

Your superficial reading of history would have been shocking, had it not been so amusing. LOL

I agree we seem to be looking at this from different views… so let’s agree where we do and disagree where we don’t…

with regard to the following—-
“I invite your comments on whether you think the changes made to the constitution are *necessary* for development. All it helps to do is to keep the Rajapakses in power, *even if they under-perform*. —–

I don’t think it is necessary for development.. there are always alternatives given the right conditions. Saying so, however, in the present context I think it may accelerate because they have control and can circumvent the petty party politics which has been the bane of this country for the past 60 + years … But as I said before I acknowledge the danger it entails…

It was nice exchanging ideas… and thank you.. I learnt something today from you as well!!!! 🙂

Ciao..

Dear Indonicus –

You asked —

“Can you show me one country that has achieved economic prosperity and social progres with a regime where one family holds the reigns of economic, political and miltary power” —

That is easy….
The United Kingdom or England with the Royal Family from way back in the middle ages till mid 20th century when they were the world’s Super power….Japan with the Yamato dynasty also known as the imperial family up to WW2….where they were Asia’s super power… and more recently the first family of Singapore… I think the Patriarch’s name is Lee Kwan Yew??? 🙂
Actually if we are heading in the way these three countries have evolved and are today…. I am all for it!!!! 🙂 Lol

Thanks all and I am outta here!!!

“Can some one please show me one country in the world that developed their economies practicing the same level of democracy and freedom of expression etc.. that is espoused as the ideal today???”

Diffperspective,

Since you like asking such cool questions here is one for you. Please answer this:

“Can you show me one country that has achieved economic prosperity and social progres with a regime where one family holds the reigns of economic, political and miltary power”

If you can think of a country, then you can see where we are probably heading.

Cheers

I’m quite willing to buy your argument. The problem is, we appear to be arguing on two different issues altogether.

I never expected Sri Lanka to be a paragon of democracy. Indeed, no country in the world is, and I have no problems with the fact that freedom and democracy at its best can only be expected in highly developed societies. Why do you think I thought the Rajapakses were the best option to finish the war and still think they are the best option considering the lack of choice?

My argument is not against temporary losses in democracy, but a permanent destruction of the constitution and the institution of dynastic rule, which we will not be able to remove as easily as you suggest. As I said earlier, we need not take this all or nothing gamble you are suggesting for the simple reason that it’s not *necessary*. I invite your comments on whether you think the changes made to the constitution are *necessary* for development. All it helps to do is to keep the Rajapakses in power, *even if they under-perform*.

If they perform well, they will automatically get the vote, as demonstrated in the last election. With these additional changes (not the matter of extending Rajapakse’s term limit), they don’t need to perform at all to keep their power.

Let me at the outset make myself clear as I may not have been previously … I do not argue with the desirability of development with Democracy and proper individual rights.. nor do I not see the dangers entailed in taking a path of authoritarianism..I have accepted both these points previously…I am only speaking here as a matter of practicality not of desirability…..

My initial post was on the practicality of having a 5 star democracy and individual Rights AS IS EXPECTED TODAY while also developing the economy to the level of a country today accepted as a “developed nation” .. Hence my original post and question — ”

“Can some one please show me one country in the world that developed their economies practicing the same level of democracy and freedom of expression etc.. that is espoused as the ideal today???”

Here are the historical reasons for that question.. very briefly—–

If you look at the North American Continent – US and Canada – they developed their countries during a time there was Military expansion by the govt. (Texas, California, New Mexico, Hawaii ..etc) Land grabbing of the Natives by not honoring any of the treaties signed by the Govt through the Gun, Slavery, indentured labor, Segregation, Disenfranchisement of a large segment of the population, Robber Baron mentality with no labor rights and child labor, etc… Segregation ended and proper voting rights were given in the US only in the 1960’s to the Colored people… and the descendants of the Chinese who were indentured to build the Railroads which expanded trade, land and opportunities and connected the Atlantic to the Pacific.. which is also cited as a primary reason for the economic development of the US given citizenship in the 1940’s, over 100 years after their forefathers built the rail roads that gave so much prosperity!!!

If you look at Europe and UK as a whole.. during the period they developed their economies, they practiced Colonization, almost all had absolute Monarchies, Buccaneering, practiced slavery in some form or serfdoms which was basically indentured labor in another form, Child labor, deplorable working conditions for the labor in industries…. and there was a ruling class and the peasants.. voting was limited to a few.. actually i think Switzerland gave the women the right to vote only around the 1970’s…and limited land ownership etc… Now I agree all these conditions do not apply to every country but at least one or two conditions apply to each!!!! Yes they did practice democracy after a certain stage and yes it did help them to grow more… but that was after they had achieved immense growth of their economies through Colonization, Buccaneering etc…

Japan was mentioned somewhere but Japan was developed long before democracy came to be in Japan when they were having an Authoritarian Rule,
colonizing other countries, having ruling classes and peasants…. all before before WW2… They were developed enough to take the US on and give them a good run!! I agree that after WW2 they became more democratic and developed fast from the ruins of WW2… But a reason for that maybe the large amounts of US Aid, expertise, markets and Administration than democracy and the fact that they were already developed before the destruction!!!

If we take Australia the story is very similar to the North American experience.. when they were developing…Massacre of and grabbing Aborigine lands, Indentured labor from India and China, Denial of citizenship to Aborigines, Asians and Africans, white Australia policy, segregation of aborigines etc…

Then we come to Singapore, South Korea and Malaysia though one can argue Malaysia is still not fully developed. – I don’t think I need to elaborate there.

However, the note worthy thing in almost all of these examples with the exceptions probably of Singapore, is though they start being very authoritarian and extremely low on rights and freedoms, as the country progress economically through the decades, we see a decline in the level of authoritarianism and more freedoms and rights because the people get more and more powerful and evolved and would demand the changes and they will succeed because of their economic power which the rulers cannot ignore. A country is not one generation or two, like in the countries aforementioned, our generation may have to endure the lack of freedom to ensure a better economic future for our kids and grand kids and so forth and like it happened in the countries mentioned before it will be them who may evolve with economic power to experience the freedoms that we bemoan we have lost today!!! Saying all this I will also admit… this journey is fraught with Danger… and as I said before… we can end up like Zimbabwe too….

I am sure there will be exceptions to what I am saying and there is one somewhere here too…. but if you look at it …..the rule seems that development has been achieved by countries during times they did not practice the 5 star democracy and individual rights WHICH ARE TOUTED TODAY. This is not to say it cannot be done, But History seem to say something different!!!! At least the way I see it!!!

That is all I have to say!!! We can agree… or .. agree to disagree!!!

Ciao!

Out of Colombo on holiday…. Did not want to waste it sitting in front of a computer….will revert with my comments probably tomorrow… Monday!!!

However, just for your info, I am not only talking of Singapore and Malaysia only… . I will expand tomorrow time permitting and hopefully we can agree or we can agree to disagree!!! 🙂

Take care!

Let me clarify my own stance. If you’ve read what I’ve written on this subject before, you’ll know that I’ve personally supported the Rajapakses because I believe they are the only viable candidates at the moment. That does not mean however, that I or anyone else should wag our tails and acquiesce to all their whims and fancies. The changes he has made do not help *us*. It helps him and his family alone. Our job, if we have anything close to intelligence, is to use bad rulers to our advantage, as best as we can, not to pray to the Gods for a Lee Kuan Yew!

I personally think that Mahinda Rajapakse will develop this country to a certain extent. That’s a good thing! However, he will also institute an autocratic government that will essentially create a feudal monarchy of sorts, with our freedom as citizens being curbed to suit his continued rule. The signs of his rule are not all positive! Remember that. He is doing development projects, but also treating his friends and relatives at state expense and appointing incompetent people to high positions. That may very well place an upper limit on our development. Once again, I say, I’m not convinced Rajapakse is a Lee Kuan Yew.

If that happens, we also need to preserve some ability to remove him. We can’t engage in wishful thinking or pray to the gods for help if that happens. That’s why we as citizens should not give up more rights than we must!