Gamarala,

Lost for words Gamarala?

You are squirming back into your Straw man instead of proving what you stated? As I suspected, when called upon to put Facts on the table, you are lost for words and facts.

You say “Quite right indeed You’ve decreed what my words mean, or what they ought to mean, and how is a mere mortal like me to disagree?”

Are you sure you are a mere mortal?
The English Lexicon decrees the meanings of the words we use.
But then you seem to have other meanings for the same words that are not found in any Earthly Dictionary, perhaps you are using God’s own.
Could you please educate us what these new meanings for Overt, Covert and Pervade are?

You say “it is not possible to prove, by any imaginable means, that 51% or above of Sinhalese people, must be racist,… ”

Realisation has come too late.
You were heehawing all this time.
But in your case you were writing about pervading. And according to Earthly (distinct from Godly) Dictionaries that means very much more, a figure closer to 100% would be more like it. Tough ask, when you can’t even prove that 20% are Racists.

You say “…as Happy Heathen has suggested elsewhere. Not only is this not a relevant question – it would be impossible to prove even if it were true! The reason is the absence of mind-reading devices that would put an exact figure on this, or even a poll for which one could expect a binary answer for the question: are you a racist? It is not a binary proposition after all.”

Going Digital now?
Dumber and Dumber with the passage of time!
A poll would not ask such a Dumb direct question as, “Are you a Racist?”

“It is however, easily possible to demonstrate that the history of Sri Lanka shows a definite majoritarian trend, again a matter which is not disputed by serious scholars, no matter how intense the tantrum Off-the-Cuff throws”

Hmm … trying to migrate to a different topic?
I love what you have written above. Especially the part wherein you try to include yourself amongst the Serious Scholars

You say “The events of ’58, ’83 and of late, the extremism of the BBS, also show that the level of extremism in society is sufficiently high for this to be a definite, persistent problem. My original proposition, that “The reality was that anti-Tamil sentiments pervaded society, overtly or covertly, and this was the bedrock on which extremists flourished”, has already been argued for to the point of tedium – and there is no real response to this – other than irrelevant, word-play based arguments. I rest my case!”

Back to the Hee Hawing

Any Animal can make a statement.
But when a Human makes a statement, especially in a Debate, supporting evidence is expected. In your case, that evidence haven’t being forthcoming even after 5 consecutive posts.
Are we to assume you are not Human?

You see Gamarala, you have not made a case, in order to rest it.

Off the cuff,

Quite right indeed 😀 You’ve decreed what my words mean, or what they ought to mean, and how is a mere mortal like me to disagree? With great panache, you have slain yet another straw demon, repeated your tune for the n+1 th time, so at this point I’ll leave you to the rest of your public act of logic contortion – it’s tedious but vaguely amusing.

For the benefit of any sane readers who have bothered to stick with this farce thus far (although it does call their sanity into question) – it is not possible to prove, by any imaginable means, that 51% or above of Sinhalese people, must be racist, as Happy Heathen has suggested elsewhere. Not only is this not a relevant question – it would be impossible to prove even if it were true! The reason is the absence of mind-reading devices that would put an exact figure on this, or even a poll for which one could expect a binary answer for the question: are you a racist? It is not a binary proposition after all.

It is however, easily possible to demonstrate that the history of Sri Lanka shows a definite majoritarian trend, again a matter which is not disputed by serious scholars, no matter how intense the tantrum Off-the-Cuff throws. The events of ’58, ’83 and of late, the extremism of the BBS, also show that the level of extremism in society is sufficiently high for this to be a definite, persistent problem. My original proposition, that “The reality was that anti-Tamil sentiments pervaded society, overtly or covertly, and this was the bedrock on which extremists flourished”, has already been argued for to the point of tedium – and there is no real response to this – other than irrelevant, word-play based arguments. I rest my case!

Dear Gamarala,

Changing the TUNE when Cornered and Exposed as a Racist labeling the Sinhalese Race as Racist?

Today you say “Another endless harangue over imagined demons. I put “saved” within quotes – not in accordance to the inferences of your fevered imagination – but to indicate the tragedy of anyone needing “saving” – something that should never have happened in the first place.”

Let me refresh your flagging memory on what you wrote.

“The situation in ’83 was the same – with people making excuses to this day that it was caused by govt. stooges, a minority of extremists etc. etc. Such self delusion doesn’t reflect documented history nor living memory. Yes, it may have been a minority that actively harmed Tamil people, and some Sinhalese people, out of decency or guilt, “saved” Tamils from persecution – after the fact. The reality was that anti-Tamil sentiments pervaded society, overtly or covertly, and this was the bedrock on which extremists flourished.” (copied and pasted from your post of 01/30/2013 • 6:41 am )

Please note that you have been trying to establish that the Sinhalese as a Race is Racist by nature

You are stating that attacks on Tamils was not by a minority of extremist goons. Insinuating that ordinary Sinhalese, who are the majority, is COMPLICIT in attacking Tamils.

You are invoking Documented History and Living Memory in support of the above. Yet you are unable to produce anything that support your contention of a Racist Sinhala Society.

You state that Racist Sinhalese Society Overtly and Covertly caused Tamils to be attacked.
Overtly means Openly.
Covertly means Secretly.
Pervades means to become diffused throughout every part of (in this case) Sinhalese Society.
Now produce evidence for your PUTRID claim.

Either you don’t know your English OR You are a RACIST trying to hide behind big words and wild accusations.

After writing all that putrid stuff you are thick skinned enough to BELATEDLY claim you did not use the word SAVED, sarcastically.

How come you did not come out with this “Explanation” in your earlier three posts date stamped 01/31/2013 • 8:38 am, 02/01/2013 • 3:20 pm and 02/02/2013 • 9:07 am ?

Do you seriously believe all the readers here on GV are simpletons?

Prove that the University Teachers for Human Rights (Jaffna) consisting of Ratnarajan Hoole, Daya Somasundaram, K.Sritharan and Rajani Thiranagama (All of them Ethnic Tamils) is wrong when they used the following extract from the book “Sri Lanka: The Holocaust and After,” by L. Piyadasa, Marram Books, London (1984) in their report.

Extract
In Kelaniya, Industries Minister Cyril Mathew’s gangs were identified as the ones at work. The General Secretary of the government “union” the Jathika Sevaka Sangamaya (J.S.S.) was identified as the leader of gangs which wrought destruction and death all over Colombo and especially in Wellawatte, where as many as ten houses a street were destroyed. A particular U.N.P. municipal councillor of the Dehiwela-Mount Lavinia Municipality led gangs in Mount Lavinia. In the Pettah (the bazaar area, where 442 shops were destroyed and murders were committed) the commander was the son of Aloysius Mudalali, the Prime Minister’s right-hand man. And so on. Thugs who worked regularly for the leaders of the U.N.P., the Ministers of State and Party Headquarters, and in some cases uniformed military personnel and police, were seen leading the attack. They used vehicles of the Sri Lanka Transport Board (Minister in charge, M. H. Mohammed) and other government departments and state corporations. Trucks of the Ceylon Petroleum Corporation’s Oil Refinery came from many miles away bringing the men who destroyed so much of Wellawatte. There is much other evidence of this sort. In view of the quasi-governmental nature of the “action,” the killings that took place may have been difficult for the eye-witnesses to resist … But in the neighbourhoods, after the initial shock, Sinhalese and Burghers organised themselves and kept off the gangs who had been sent to burn and kill.
End extract

Note the emphasised text.

Does that describes the actions of a society Pervaded by Racism?

Prove that Dr. Rajasingham Narendran, a Tamil victim of 1983 riots is a Liar, to have acknowledged on Groundviews, that he was protected by the very Sinhalese that you claim is Racist to the core.

OK Great Man, make good on you putrid Braggadocio

Thank you
OTC

Off the cuff,

Another endless harangue over imagined demons. I put “saved” within quotes – not in accordance to the inferences of your fevered imagination – but to indicate the tragedy of anyone needing “saving” – something that should never have happened in the first place.

The rest of your babbling is therefore moot – and is one part of your regular two part tune – namely.
1. The Sinhalese are heroic and unfairly vilified – they are the real victims of “putrid canards”. You are duty bound to undo any damaging perception that will upset the “peace”.
2. The Tamils on the other hand, have been regular villains, but unfairly seen as victims. You are beholden to rectify this misconception.

There – cut-paste the two lines above on a regular basis instead – will save this forum some time 😀

Dear Dingiri,

You say “We both read Dr. Raghavan’s article. I felt he was critical (validly) of the BBS and the Sinhala Right. You thought it was a vilification of all Sinhalese and Buddhists”

Dingiri, it is about what Dr Raghavan wrote not what you and I think that he wrote. Please put your assumptions away and analyse the English. Look at the sentences that I have reproduced. You have not taken the trouble to counter my analysis. Please prove me wrong.
BTW Raghavan does not write about a ‘Sinhala Right’. He writes about the ‘Sinhala Mind’ and the ‘Sanga’.

Please note that Suren has been and still is reading what we write. He was active on this thread addressing Podi Mahththaya on 02/01/2013 • 10:29 pm. Yet he has neglected to explain himself. What do you think of a man who does that? A man who cannot stand by what he has written. Do you believe has has facts to back up what he has written? If you do, then you are very magnanimous.

BTW I am not writing to convince you but to put an alternate view to Suren’s for others to think about. I have not speculated about what he has written but have dissected it word by word. I have not altered or introduced new words to his writing but have analysed the English as written by him.

Dr Suren Raghavan has failed to prove me wrong. I hope he will.

You say “You have written a long post but you havent addressed my main point. IF THESE PEOPLE ARE A MINORITY, WHY IS THE MAJORITY SO SILENT?”

You did not challenge your village priest for his racist remarks. Does that prove that you are a Racist?
I do not believe you are, yet if we go by your own argument SILENCE meant that you are a racist. Do you think such an interpretation is Just? I don’t think so because being a Racist and being unable to stand up to Racism are two completely different things. You cannot use one to prove the other.

In the population there are many people like you. People who are not racist by nature but are unable to stand up to racism (or thinks that the racism is too minor to make a fuss). The inability of these people to stand up to racism cannot be used to brand them as Racists.

I have seen an old handbill in my father’s scrap book of a Samadhi Buddha over printed by a large cross across the eyes. Tensions had existed between some Roman Catholics bent on Proselytization and some Buddhists. Today the Head of that Church is talking about Proselytization of the Catholics and the Buddhists by the Christian fundamentalists.

You say “In the UK, if the English Defence League organises a rally, there will be a spontaneous anti-EDL counter rally lining the streets and hurling abuse at the racists in next to no time. Most of the anti-racists will also be white English. But where is the opposition to the BBS demos in Dambulla, Maharagama and Badulla? Where is the resistance? Who is taking them on? Where are our leaders?”

Apparently you are not living in SL now. We had drastic escalation of prices in Infant Milk foods, Gas, Kerosene, Diesel and in fact, all essential items for day to day living. The price of Garlic is so high that shop keepers are selling it by the Clove. Maldive fish is sky high at around Rs 3000 a Kilo. The poor is undoubtedly the majority in SL. It is the votes of the poor that brought the current govt to power. It is the poor that is most affected by these escalating prices. Ever wonder why there is no significant street protests against the unbearable cost of living? Ever wonder why there are no riots? Ever wonder why there are no street protest on the degrading free health service when even essential medicines are contaminated with foreign matter? At the moment there are more things that can trigger street protests than the BBS, yet there is nothing significant happening.

Does that prove that the people approve the overnight price hikes?

You say “It is not their words but their actions I am worried about. Demolishing mosques, publicly vilifying minorities with words like “Thambiya” and “Hambaya”, orchestrating boycots of minority businesses dont quite fit the label “protecting Buddhism while safeguarding the Rights of other religions” as far as I am concerned. But again, you may have a different opinion to me on that”

I am worried about that too.
But I am more worried when that is made an excuse of to vilify 70% of the population.

You say “It is also my opinion that this is a fairly recent phenomenon in Sri Lanka. Until about 2 years ago Sinhala-Moslem relations had been improving. The Sinhalese did not think twice about patronising Moslem businesses”

So today we are 2 years into the time that you have identified as a changed behaviour towards the Muslims. Have you visited any large Muslim establishment lately, like the Glitz? Noticed the crowds? Were they predominantly Muslim? I see a predominance of Sinhalese and Buddhists. You see Dingiri, this is the reality, not the deception practiced by some people who have ulterior motives in trying to portray the totality of Buddhists and the Sinhalese as racist.

I am not aware that the BBS is calling for a boycott of Muslim businesses. They have not asked the Buddhists to stop visiting the hardware store or the textile shop or the Fish monger etc on the basis of ethnicity. There was no such thing even at the height of Tamil terrorism. Can you please direct me to your source?

The BBS is talking about Halal Certification. They say currently about 40 manufacturers pay annually Rs 175,000 each, yielding 7million annually. They ask why Halal certification is needed for Tea and similar vegetarian products and so on. They ask whether Biscuits also need Halal certification. They see it as an indirect taxation of the non Muslims. They ask why the non Muslims have to pay to support Islam. The BBS says that if the products the Buddhists buy increases in cost of manufacture due to Halal certification then the best counter to that is to boycott Halal certified products and let the manufacturer chose between losing Buddhist Patronage or Muslim Patronage.

From the manufacturers point of view, the rationale for obtaining Halal certification is to sell the products to Muslims. From the BBS point of view such increase would lead to increase in the retail price for the Buddhists.

These are arguments that will flourish when the environment is conducive to that. Hence all responsible persons should make sure that attempts to establish such an environment is nipped in the bud. UNJUST Vilification of the Buddhists will establish such an environment.

You say “ They did not feel threatened by Moslems until quite recently, but all that is changing. I wonder if Moslem businesses will be doing as well in a few years time.

So far there is no proof of a generalised feeling of threat. At the moment you are speculating just like Raghavan.

You say “Or if Moslem MPs like M.H. Mohomed will still be getting elected from predominantly Sinhala electorates”

The state of affairs today is that Muslims get elected from Sinhala Majority Areas. This is PROOF that the racism alleged does not pervade the CURRENT majority thinking. About the future, you are speculating, because you cannot establish the background using the present. That is the same predicament that Suren Raghavan finds himself in.

You say “Social Media is a reasonably good tool to guage social opinion in the absence of a proper survey of the entire population”

Not in Sri Lanka it is not.
Whose opinion are you gauging?
Of the few who has access to the Internet or the many who do not?

You ask “I wonder how you arrived at your counter conclusion that supporters of the BBS are a tiny minority without a survey ………. Now look at the Hate sites on Facebook and see how fast they are clocking up “Likes” and you will see what I mean.”

Dingiri, you are obviously not a supporter of BBS and neither am I.
Is there anything to prevent you or me from going to the BBS website and feigning support?
Is there anything that prevents you or me from posting a Hate Comment?
Is there anything that prevents you or me clocking MULTIPLE likes on Face book?

Anyone can do what you and I can do due the limitation of technology in Facebook.
This is like the voting in the annual School boy cricketer of the year contest.
A single person can by 10,000 papers and send 10,000 votes.
That does not gauge the popularity of the cricketer.
So please don’t get deceived by it.

You say “I wonder if you remember how the Groundviews “Not in my name” campaign yielded a mere 1500 signatures?”

Yes I remember. I have already answered you above.
What numbers where you expecting?
How many different people do you see contributing to GV?
Don’t read too much into what you see on the hit counter on the web.

You say “There is no reason to believe that only BBS supporters have access to computers in Sri Lanka or respond to facebook campaigns”

Did I write this?
I am sure you are making a mistake, probably inadvertently.

This is what I wrote

Emails and Facebook cannot be used to judge the thinking of a 15 million population, the overwhelming majority of which, have no access or knowledge of either. Your circle of friends may be having those radical views but mine don’t. The numbers you mention are just a drop in the ocean of 15 million. So how can that be significant?

Please do not misconstrue what I write.

You say “Also, congratulations on not knowing any Sinhalese with anti-minority views. You are indeed a lucky man”

Oops there you go again.
We were talking about friends not any Sinhalese.
Yes as per Buddhist text, I believe having non racist friends is my fortune. I am fortunate that the feet of my friends are firmly planted on Sri Lankan soil.

Gamarala,

Where is your argument to establish what you said before?

Now you are talking of Tribalism.
Is that one of the fashionable buzz words that you use to impress?
Buzz words have no meaning unless you can prove what you say.
Don’t you have facts to write about instead of empty rhetoric?

Let’ look at the following statement that you made.

You said “…….., and some Sinhalese people, out of decency or guilt, “saved” Tamils from persecution – after the fact”

By enclosing the word SAVED within quotes you used SARCASM to modify the meaning of the word completely. Hence according to you, even those who risked the lives of their Families, to Help distressed Tamils were Racists. According to you, there were no Decent Sinhalese, all of them were Racists.

According to you, UTHR(J) and L. Piyadasa are lying when they say “after the initial shock, Sinhalese and Burghers organised themselves and kept off the gangs who had been sent to burn and kill“. According to you, Dr Rajasingham Narendran is Lying when he acknowledges the selfless Help that he and his family received from the Sinhalese.

Who and what are we to believe?

You and the stuff that your putrid mind cooks up or the Eye Witnesses accounts of the Bravery and selflessness of the Sinhalese? Are we to discard the unequivocal statements made by Dr Rajasingham Narendran, a victim of 1983 mob violence, about the selfless help he received from the Sinhalese, just because you wrote a Putrid sentence on GV, using pointed sarcasm by enclosing the word saved in Quotes?

If you stand by your statement, Justify it, else withdraw it

JUSTIFY your use of Tambiah to support the putrid statement you wrote.

You say According to guys like you, when Tamils become radicalized, it’s because they are inherently racist. When Sinhalese become radicalized, it’s because it’s a defense mechanism!
I’m sorry my dear, your slip is showing!

Cardinal Malcom Ranjith, the Head of the Catholic Church in SL, was not talking about either the Sinhalese or the Tamils. He was talking about Catholics, Buddhists and the Christian Fundamentalists. I refered to what he said. But you are too fixated on the Racist Sinhalese to notice that and keep on cooking statements from thin air!

I’m sorry my dear, it’s your tail that’s showing!

Off the cuff,

According to guys like you, when Tamils become radicalized, it’s because they are inherently racist. When Sinhalese become radicalized, it’s because it’s a defense mechanism! 😀

I’m sorry my dear, your slip is showing!

You are free to believe what you wish, including believing that sugar-coating the truth, and a “see-no-evil, hear-no-evil” selectivity to recorded facts about our history is a suitable approach to solving problems. I do not share that belief.

My belief is that unless we as a society are mature enough to inspect a mirror held in front of us objectively, and to acknowledge the fact that tribalism is a real phenomenon in our barely post-feudal society, it will be very difficult to solve our problems. You cannot solve a problem that you do not either know, or don’t acknowledge, to exist.

I also do not consider this tribalism to be limited to the Sinhalese (I hope that lets you heave a sigh of relief), but one that is spread out across the three main tribes – the Sinhalese, Tamils and Muslims. I have already presented evidence for the first claim – I think your prejudice alone is sufficient evidence for the other two.

well said dingiri

not only this, if such exist no doubt that even government MPs involved in these, because all these campaign were done in the presence of police and no action had been taken against breaching the law and order.

an “equal right group” members were tried to arrest by police when pointing out these points and they were came under attack by mobs.

so don’t you feel something fishy here?

Gamarala,

You say “I am not inclined to argue against strawman accounts of what I’ve said “

Where is this Strawman?
What you have said is reproduced further down, copied from your post, to ensure it is unchanged. Justify it if you can.
I doubt you have the ability to do so.

You say “filibustering on the “dishonesty” of transforming the sentence:
“some Sinhalese people, out of decency or guilt” into “a FEW Sinhalese driven by GUILT “.

Sorry about that. It was not intended. My mistake.
I should have copied it from your post instead of typing it.

But why that FALSE indignation after truncating the sentence to suit you? Are you trying to draw a Red Herring to deflect attention from the Quotation Marks you used to enclose the word SAVED?

Are you trying to mitigate the Sarcasm with which you altered the meaning of the word saved?
Was that insanity or inanity?

The sentence in question should be corrected as follows

Have your source, S.J. Tambia, subscribed to your position that SOME Sinhalese, driven by decency or guilt, “SAVED” Tamils from persecution after the fact?

You ask “Not stopping there, you’ve gone onto speculate on what it would imply if Tambiah had made that statement instead. What kind of insanity and inanity is this?”

Oh no, I am not asking you to speculate on what you quote from Tambiah. I am asking you to JUSTIFY your use of Tambiah to support the putrid statement you wrote (reproduced below).

“…….., and some Sinhalese people, out of decency or guilt, “saved” Tamils from persecution – after the fact”

If you stand by your statement, Justify it, else withdraw it. This time you cannot use false indignation to hide behind.

Your statement has been contradicted by the UTHR(J) who are Tamil, Dr Rajasingham Narendran a Tamil contributor to GV, who has experienced Mob Violence and Sinhalese magnanimity in 1983 and L. Piyadasa (the author of the quote I provided).

I believe that statement is a Vulgar attempt at belittling the selfless acts of the many ordinary Sinhalese who risked life, limb and property, not only of themselves but of their spouses and children as well, to save Tamils in distress, from certain death, at the hands of Govt goons. As a Sinhalese, have you ever faced an enraged armed Mob in defense of distressed Tamils?

Since you are adept at pointing fingers and belittling these brave Sinhalese, it is pertinent to ask, what you were doing to save the Tamils in distress? Did you protect the distressed Tamils by sharing your house with them? Did you keep them safe for the several days that the Goons were active and the Police inactive? Did you have to buy bread and provisions from many different bakers and shops to avoid detection of the unusual quantities that were needed to feed the distressed Tamils? Did you deliver them to safety afterwards? Were you just interested in self preservation when the armed goons came for the Tamils in your neighbourhood? Talk of course is Cheap. Cowards get exposed when they have to Walk the Talk.

You say “No amount of over the top babbling on your part can hide the issues that Dingiri or I raised”

Neither you or Dingiri or the author of this article have been able to address the issues I have raised. Hence who is babbling and who is not is plain to see.

You say “Without recognizing the fact that these extremist anti-Muslim sentiments are essentially building on existing societal racism and prejudice writ large, as in the past, the problem runs the risk of worsening.“

I believe you are delusional due to your inability to comprehend.
Here are two extracts from my posts in this thread where I acknowledge radicalism of the BBS.

extracts
He has also enlarged and widened his observations from the BBS radicals, to encompass the Sangha, which is the TOTALITY of the Buddhist clergy. (01/28/2013 • 1:40 am)

I believe that the BBS have radical and fundamentalist views. (01/31/2013 • 1:35 am)
End extracts

Even if your language disability caused you to miss the first, you could not have missed the direct reference made in the second, unless you were extremely myopic.

The problem arises when you try to use the actions of a few radical fundamentalists to vilify a 15 million population (70% of the the Lankan population) without solid grounds to backup the claims. The Facts of course wont go away but you have failed to establish any facts so far.

If the vilification that you and Suren practices goes on, the real danger is that the currently moderate majority would become radicalised as a defense mechanism against what the Head of the Catholic Church has identified. Please note that a sizable proportion of Catholics are Tamils.

Hence if the BBS flourishes, it is because of the environment created by people like you Gamarala and Suren Raghavan.

Note to Dingiri, I saw your post of 02/01/2013 • 6:41 pm just before I was about to post this reply. I will address it later as it is past midnight (unfortunately the time stamp on GV has no relevance to the time of release on the web).

I have no problem with the criticism leveled at BBS. The problem arises when the BBS behaviour is projected as majority behaviour without substantiating proof.