”What are these resources that were “whisked away to the mother countries…” – they were traded, what’s wrong with that?”

[Edited out] The Brits traded with us for our tea and spices??? 😀 The Europeans came in and took the land by force, planted what they liked, paid locals to tend the crops, and then took it away for their own consumption, or sold it to others for their own profit. In Africa, they didn’t even bother growing stuff, they just dug up the gold and diamonds and took it away. It’s like me walking into a person’s home, telling their [Edited] mum, “Look, lady, you’re gonna cook me three square meals a day from the stuff you grow in your garden, and I’m gonna pay you ten bucks a month for it. Oh, and I’m also gonna teach your son [Edited out] to speak my language, so that when you kick it, he can take over the job. And you’re gonna be grateful for it.” 😀 Still don’t understand how colonization works, do you [Edited out]? Who do you think was running the East India Company – the Salvation Army? You seem to come up with some unique definitions for English words – I never knew “trade” and “stealing” were synonymous! Do the Ten Commandments say “Thou shall not trade”, Heshan?

”Germany was not ruled by occupiers? Hahaha… Germany was divided into six zones; the Soviet influence is still there today, even though Germany is technically the most powerful Western European nation – East Germany is still lagging behind economically.”

[Edited out.] Allied administration of Germany was only for four years; by 1949, West Germany was a sovereign nation again, a member of the UN and NATO, with its own constitution, parliament, economy, and military. Soviet Communism hobbled every nation it touched, and they will all have to run to catch up with the open economy after the Soviet collapse. If the USSR had allowed East Germany to have its head, it wouldn’t be lagging behind. As I said before, the iron curtain and communism is the closest to colonization as is possible to get in the 20th century. Even then, the impact was primarily economic; eastern Germany isn’t lagging that far behind in other ways – even the chancellor is an “Ossi”. On the other hand, Chinese Communism hasn’t collapsed, but is going through a transformation in the far east, with China leading the way, and Indochina following. They will probably never be open economies in the near future, but neither will they go through the shock therapy of eastern Europe. Direct Allied administration of Japan ended in 1952, after seven years, after which Japan too became a sovereign nation with all of the aspects that Germany was given – yes, including a military J Japan’s biggest economic boom began in 1960, eight years after Allied administration had ended, and both countries have far surpassed the US as economic powerhouses.

”Wow, that has to be the dumbest statement of the millenium. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor because they didn’t want the US Navy to interfere with Japanese plans for invading the Dutch East Indies. It had nothing to do with protecting “shipping lanes” as you idiotically claimed earlier. The Japanese were planning on building an Empire regardless of any war with the USA.”

Now before you embark on a righteous crusade, Heshan, I’m not in any way saying that Japan was in the right to go to war, however, you must be pretty immature if you think US problems with Japan began with Pearl Harbour 😀 It began with US economic collapse in the Great Depression which began in 1929. American collapse destroyed Japan’s biggest export market for silk, which in turn threw Japan into its own collapse. Already in turmoil, this was the last straw, and like the European nations of the previous centuries, Japan turned to colonization as a resource – Korea, China, and other countries on continental Asia. Unhappy with this, the impotent League of Nations condemned Japan, which in turn withdrew from the league. Realizing the league was unable to do anything, the US took on its favourite role – global policeman – and in 1939 broke its trade treaties with Japan and began to restrict essential shipments of oil and steel. By 1941, the US was in a full scale embargo that was strangling Japan. The latter was trapped – to withdraw from its Asian colonies meant economic ruin, and to stay meant industrial starvation; the only choice was to look for oil in other areas, basically European and American colonies and protectorates such as British Borneo and Malaya, the Dutch East Indies, and the Philippines. To do this would mean war with the US and Europe, and since the US Navy was the only real threat in the east Pacific, Japan struck first, demonstrating in one text-book attack that the aircraft carrier was the new queen of naval warfare.

”They had their eyes set on certain territories which did not belong to them.”

You mean like like the European empires which ran on territories that didn’t belong to them?

”Where did all those fancy Sony/Toshiba/etc. gadgets come from… that’s right Blacker, the USA or Europe. The speed train, the semiconductor, the cellphone, satellites, television, GPS, laptops, robots, automobiles, the Japanese even copy Western cartoons (most of the characters are White). And don’t assume your other buddy China is any better.”

[Edited out] The US invented a few thinks 50 years ago, and the Japanese and Chinese figured out how to make them more efficient and cheaper. Meantime, the Europeans make stuff that is classier, more desirable, better engineered, and easier to repair. The US is a dinosaur when it comes to manufacturing anything that the world wants to buy – their cars are ugly, slow and expensive, and handle like trucks – nobody wants ‘em, except Americans who don’t know any better. The same goes for 90% of American products – they can be made cheaper, better, and prettier elsewhere.

”I don’t know what you mean by “defeated.” Ever heard of the IRA? For all practical purposes, Scotland is an independent entity today. The only thing it can’t do is raise its own army. Northern Ireland is still fighting for its independence.”

For all practical purposes Scotland is a part of England J The latter make a pretext of it by letting the Scots have their own sports teams (along with anthem, flag, and a few other harmless trappings), but that’s about it – Scotland has no real control of anything that an independent nation or even a federal state would have. Whatever autonomy Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have has been received in the late 20th century, when it was given its own parliament in 1998. At the outset of colonization, they were ruled by England, which is the point in any discussion on the subject. [Edited out] England realized that it couldn’t rule a nation that had to be perpetually conquered, and so provided an opportunity for the disaffected Scots, Irish and Welsh via the empire. Ever wonder why plantations throughout Asia still have Scottish names and not English?

”If SL was landlocked and the war had been fought with primitive weapons, the duration would easily have exceeded a 100 years. Chechyna, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq – all are landlocked, and these conflicts never had a clear end in sight.”

Yes, and if the moon was made of cheese, we could nuke it and have a big fondue, but it’s not is it? Your fantasies are all very entertaining, Heshan. [Edited out] I’d rather stick to the subject J Vietnam lasted a mere ten years, Afghanistan even less. Chechnya isn’t over of course, but it’s not much of a war anymore. Our war lasted 30 years, three times as long as your landlocked wars 😀 Oh, and the UK isn’t landlocked either. Do you actually have a point, Heshan [Edited out]?

”Nevertheless, both were colonized, Blacker. The British used the same methods in those places as they did everywhere else. You still find many Indian-origin Tamils occupying high positions in the Singapore civil service. The Chinese – who actually rule Singapore – were also imported. Doesn’t sound like any “natural progression”, to me. Yet the outcome can’t be denied. Still wanna blame colonialism, Blacker?”

The point is, Heshan, that neither Singapore nor Hong Kong existed as nations prior to European colonization, and Hong Kong still doesn’t. It’s now an autonomous city, but part of the China – it isn’t a nation. Singapore didn’t even exist as a nation before the Brits left – it was just one more Malayan city. So how can there be natural progress in a country that doesn’t exist? 😀 Both Singapore and Hong Kong owe their existence to British colonization, unlike most other former colonies. The anomaly goes further with both cities – unlike normal cities, Hong Kong can control who enters it and who lives there and works there – it’s almost like being a nation divested of its poor, and uneducated; in other words, a fat-free society. Singapore is the same. Those conditions don’t exist in normal nations, and the only way to replicate that environment is to make every Asian city an autonomous closed population. Unfortunately, that’ll leave a few billion rural folk behind. Autonomous cities can’t be the norm in any nation, they always have to be the exception. As for Singapore importing the Chinese – they import everything, Heshan, even the water; today, LKY has to keep importing Indians, Sri Lankans, and white folks to keep things ticking because the locals haven’t the ability, creating a glass ceiling that’s under a lot of pressure from below. You can do that in nations where there’s no democracy (remember the UAE?), and you don’t have to weather an election every few years, but not in normal countries. It’s why I’ve been telling you that Singapore isn’t a useable example. [Edited out.]

Er… what? 09% is a good percentage of kids in school? 😀 Anyway, I already told you what the advantages of education were in the empire – it made sure that the natives were educated in the ways of their masters – history was English history, English literature, and so on. Religion was the only local things taught. All part of preparing the next generation for service to the empire.

Your exchanges now have nothing at all to do with the article above. Kindly continue your discussions using other means and on other fora.

“And Asians never exploited Asians? And Westerners never expoloited Westerners? Try harder Blacker. Had the Japanese conquered Asia as they intended to, the outcome would have far, far worse than anything you blame colonialism for.”

We’re not discussing exploitation, Professor Heshan. 😀 Try and stay focused. We’re discussing why the 3rd world hasn’t progressed as far as the west has in terms of global ideals, and we’re discovering that colonisation handicapped the development of those ideals in the colonies. Don’t get lost among the trees as usual [edited out]

“In some cases, flesh was cut from living people blah blah”

Old hat, Heshan. Look at what the US is doing in Abu Ghraib just a couple years ago. Rape, pedophilia, murder, torture — all sanctioned from above, and you have to go back to WW2 to find anything on the Japs? Try harder, kid.

“What are the short term gains that have been outlived? I’ve already explained how it was the Europeans that overthrew the caste/class system…”

And replaced it with their own — ie if you were white you ruled, if you weren’t you didn’t; if you spoke the language of the crown, you got ahead, if you didn’t you didn’t. Sound familiar?

“it was the Europeans who promoted gender equality.”

“It was the Europeans who laid miles and miles of railroad tracks, and imported the trains to run on them.”

Correct again. So that the Europeans could get their loot down to the ports and off to Europe.

“No native person since Independence has come up with an enterprise that’s nearly as profitable.”

Nor one so environmentally damaging. Tea was planted because it was profitable for the Brits, not because they liked us. The same goes for every other thing they created here. If the Europeans hadn’t created those things, we would have eventually, just as Japan, China, and Thailand have. That’s why I said the long-term disadvantages far outweigh the short-term advantages.

“The problem in SL is that the institutions and infrastructure which the British left behind have hardly been modernized.

These things are being worked on, and will gradually improve now that the war’s over, but they’re hardly the things that have held us back since independence are they?

“Does that look like a modern train to you? Modern trains are not open to the elements.”

They are in the tropics 🙂 You can spend money on heating and airconditioning once other things are sorted.

“Even the British have gone with federalism, but S. Lanka clings to the original Westminister model in its entirety, with all power concentrated at the Center.”

Britain isn’t federal 😀 It is governed from the centre — you can have devolution without decentralization. Sigh. I’m having to actually educate you, don’t I?

“Haha, it goes well beyond a trade monopoly, Blacker. You seemed to have miss this line: However, it was the aftermath of the War that exposed China, economically, socially, politically and ideologically to the outside world.”

It did not. China remained closed to the outside world for over a century after the Boxer Rebellion, and arguably still is. European influence was restricted to certain port cities such as Shanghai and Hong Kong. Chinese rulers controlled China, and it wasn’t a colony.

“And if the nukes hadn’t been dropped (after Japan refused to surrender) and 200 million people died in the ensuing land invasion because the Japanese were mobilizing civilians to fight blah blah”

Lol 200 million??? Get a grip, Heshan. But seriously, there are always excuses for atrocities 😉 Just ask the JHU.

“By the way, you seem to be entirely unaware of Japanese atrocities blah blah”

Now now, Heshan, we’ve been through this — you can’t justify your own crimes by pointing the finger at others.

“Red Indians, blah blah blah, the average Red Indian of today has more educational and career opportunities than the average Sinhalese villager.”

You mean the Native Americans should be grateful that the whites stole all their land, killed most of their people and then gave them a few books to read and a reservation to live on and allowed them some (wow) “quotas”??? Right on, Custer! Teach them pesky redskins a lesson 😀 You’re Sinhalese, right? I’m beginning to see why you sound so much like Comrade Wimal 🙂

What are these resources that were “whisked away to the mother countries…” – they were traded, what’s wrong with that? Back then, the commodities were probably more valuable than they are now (considering how more players have now entered the market) but I see no long-term disadvantage to the colonial nation. Germany was not ruled by occupiers? Hahaha… Germany was divided into six zones; the Soviet influence is still there today, even though Germany is technically the most powerful Western European nation – East Germany is still lagging behind economically.

As for the US stopping Japan, if not for the US, Japan wouldn’t have needed to go to war

Wow, that has to be the dumbest statement of the millenium. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor because they didn’t want the US Navy to interfere with Japanese plans for invading the Dutch East Indies. It had nothing to do with protecting “shipping lanes” as you idiotically claimed earlier. The Japanese were planning on building an Empire regardless of any war with the USA. They had their eyes set on certain territories which did not belong to them :

“The overall intention was to enable Japan to conquer Southeast Asia without interference.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor

Also, ask anyone in Asia today whether they’d rather be in a Japanese-influenced world or an American one, and you won’t find many US fans — your economy is struggling, your manufacturing is dead, your people are fat and greedy, and no one buys your products.

In that case, you could’ve gone on your 30-yr anti-terrorism crusade with spear and dagger… 🙂 As far as the economy goes, yep, Mahinda is doing his best to beg from China, but we all know about Chinese *generosity*, a la Russel Peters. There were no Chinese ships in SL after the tsunami, Blacker. When a big disaster hits, good luck counting on your Chinese buddies. As for a “Japanese-influenced world”, the Japanese are innovators, not creators. Where did all those fancy Sony/Toshiba/etc. gadgets come from… that’s right Blacker, the USA or Europe. The speed train, the semiconductor, the cellphone, satellites, television, GPS, laptops, robots, automobiles, the Japanese even copy Western cartoons (most of the characters are White). And don’t assume your other buddy China is any better.

It’s because Scotland, Ireland etc were defeated that their peoples needed to look overseas for opportunity, staffing the empire. Federal?? 😀 England itself was hardly a democracy and the Scottish parliament was controlled by the English crown.

I don’t know what you mean by “defeated.” Ever heard of the IRA? 🙂 For all practical purposes, Scotland is an independent entity today. The only thing it can’t do is raise its own army. Northern Ireland is still fighting for its independence.

Ha ha really? If SL was landlocked it would have become a parliamentary monarchy?

If SL was landlocked and the war had been fought with primitive weapons, the duration would easily have exceeded a 100 years. Chechyna, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq – all are landlocked, and these conflicts never had a clear end in sight.

Hong Kong is an autonomous city (a real one, [Edited out]), administered as a city-state by China. Singapore IS a city/state.

Nevertheless, both were colonized, Blacker. The British used the same methods in those places as they did everywhere else. You still find many Indian-origin Tamils occupying high positions in the Singapore civil service. The Chinese – who actually rule Singapore – were also imported. Doesn’t sound like any “natural progression”, to me. Yet the outcome can’t be denied. Still wanna blame colonialism, Blacker?

Exactly my point. Have you got it now? Back in Holland, England, Belgium etc most people were fishing, farming, or killing their neighbours. When they ran outta space and neighbours, they came over here and grabbed ours.

They (Europeans) had many motives. The primary one was trade. Another was to protect trade routes. Another was to spread Christianity. It’s rather foolish to presume that colonization was based on exploitation alone.

There was neither free education, nor the ability to move up any ladders in the class-ridden societies of Europe’s empires at the start of the colonial adventure. These things were part of their own natural development, and while these things progressed in the mother countries, they were suppressed for obvious reasons by the masters in their colonies. I hope you’re taking notes, [Edited out], so that I don’t have to repeat the lesson. Also, the Europeans didn’t “open up” the colonies for trade as you so amusingly phrase it; they acquired all the native resources for themselves and traded these for their own profit. The natives got nothing. Its called stealing. Very Christian that.

Nonsense, Blacker. Many of the prominent families you find today trace their success back to what their forefathers were able to accomplish specfically during the colonial era.

Extracts from ‘Nobodies to Somebodies – The Rise of the Colonial Bourgeoisie in Sri Lanka’
Kumari Jayawardena, 2000, Social Scientists’ Association and Sanjiva Books. ISBN 955-9102-26-5

The book gives a detail account of the rise of the Lankan bourgeoisie during the vast economic changes of the 19th and the early part of the 20th century, and traces the rise and fall of the enterprising communities through the economic gains made in the liquor industry, rents, estates, conversions and plantations etc. Some interesting extracts from the book are highlighted as follows:-

Page 21– Accumulation through land ownership

Members of another group of Sri Lankans, who were to form an important part of the emergent 19th century bourgeoisie, were landowners, whose holdings provided them with a means of accumulation and later, a basis for expanded growth in the plantation era. Just as the monopolistic policies of the Dutch and the British had located a stratum of officials in the cinnamon industry and endowed them with a basis for growth, their administrative policies also created a group of Sri Lankan officials, called Mudaliyars. Peebles (1973:1) has defined them as a n economic and social status group “mediating between the alien rulers and the bulk of the indigenous population” performing functions that the foreign rulers were “unable or unwilling to do”.

Page 22 – Accumulation through land ownership

The Mudaliyars were not aristocrats in the strict sense of the term, since they were not descendants of a nobility that had derived power and patronage from the earlier Kings of Sri Lanka. They were, rather, Low-country Sinhalese who first rose to real prominence during colonial rule, with a record of loyal service to the Portuguese, Dutch and subsequently to the British rulers. The land, as well as privileges and titles they thereby acquired had enabled them to assume a “feudal” lifestyle and establish their position in the Low-country as the “leading” Sinhalese rulers who had created an “aristocracy” for their own purpose.

Page 148-149 :

“Nevertheless for many years previously rubber was a good investment for Sri Lankans and, by 1917, there were 65 local owners with over 100 acres each. Those who owned over 700 acres included many who belonged by birth or marriage to families who had made the initial accumulation in liquor – notably Henry Amarasuriya, Dr WA de Silva, AJR de Soysa, Bastian Fernando, Dr Marcus Fernando and Charles Pieris (Roberts 1979:180). By 1927 those owning over 1,000 acres were also part of the liquor bourgeoisie – Mrs Henry Amarasuriya, Dr WA de Silva, LWA de Soysa, CEA Dias, Dr Marcus Fernando, H Watson Peiris, and JLC Peiris. Other large rubber owners of over 1,000 acres, included men and women of all castes and ethnicities – namely Fred Abeysundera, E.C. De Fonseka, A.E.de Silva Sr., Daniel Fernando, E.L Ibrahim Lebbe Marikar, Alice Kotelawela, A.J. Vanderpoorten and E.G. Adamaly.”

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~lkawgw/nobtosom.html

What about education, Blacker? The stats speak for themselves:

Thus by the beginning of the 20th Century the opportunities for education in Sri Lanka were numerous with Government schools, Missionary schools, Buddhist schools, Hindu schools and Muslim schools.

* In 1921 , the total population was – 4, 504,549
* Number of children attending School – 404,430
* Percentage of children attending school – 09%

http://www.moe.gov.lk/Education_his_1.3.html

And Asians never exploited Asians? And Westerners never expoloited Westerners? Try harder Blacker. Had the Japanese conquered Asia as they intended to, the outcome would have far, far worse than anything you blame colonialism for.

——-

In some cases, flesh was cut from living people: another Indian POW, Lance Naik Hatam Ali (later a citizen of Pakistan), testified that in New Guinea:

the Japanese started selecting prisoners and every day one prisoner was taken out and killed and eaten by the soldiers. I personally saw this happen and about 100 prisoners were eaten at this place by the Japanese. The remainder of us were taken to another spot 50 miles [80 km] away where 10 prisoners died of sickness. At this place, the Japanese again started selecting prisoners to eat. Those selected were taken to a hut where their flesh was cut from their bodies while they were alive and they were thrown into a ditch where they later died.[56]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#Use_of_chemical_weapons

What are the short term gains that have been outlived? I’ve already explained how it was the Europeans that overthrew the caste/class system… it was the Europeans who promoted gender equality. It was the Europeans who laid miles and miles of railroad tracks, and imported the trains to run on them. It was the Europeans that built hospitals, schools, roads, etc. It was the British who introduced tea to the island and imported Indian Tamils to pick the tea, after the Kandyans refused. Do you have any clue how much tea grosses in annual net revenue, Blacker? A minimum of 1 billion (USD). No native person since Independence has come up with an enterprise that’s nearly as profitable. In simple terms, Blacker, the Europeans laid the foundations for capitalism in SL, India, Singapore, and elsewhere. They also tried to setup a European system of government. The problem in SL is that the institutions and infrastructure which the British left behind have hardly been modernized. Look at this train, Blacker:

http://www.diggles.com/pgs/2005/tsunami_train.jpg

Does that look like a modern train to you? Modern trains are not open to the elements. Furthermore, the world has moved beyond simple trains. Subways, speed trains, luxury trains, etc. S. Lanka is still stuck on a stupid train that can’t handle 20 ft high tsunami waves. I would be interested in knowing how many miles of track have been laid since Independence, as well as how many new routes added. I can’t prove it, but I bet the total figures would come to hardly anything. From trains, we move to education. The system is still largely the same, minus international schools. What about government? Even the British have gone with federalism, but S. Lanka clings to the original Westminister model in its entirety, with all power concentrated at the Center. The roads that the British built are still there. The health system is in disarray – good luck if you’re poor and can’t afford a private hospital. What about economics? The vasy majority of people are still engaged in small-scale farming – other than building a few dams, GOSL has invested very little in the development of areas outside of the Western Province. Even the Army is modeled along British lines.

re you serious? You don’t know the difference between colonisation and trade monopolies??? Trade agreements, however unfair, don’t impact a country’s core culture. It can open a country up to outside influence as you say, but being open is not the same as colonisation lol.

Haha, it goes well beyond a trade monopoly, Blacker. You seemed to have miss this line: However, it was the aftermath of the War that exposed China, economically, socially, politically and ideologically to the outside world. This exposure was dictated by the demands of the West along Western terms , which is very similar to the situation one would have found with a Western colony.

Only 200,000 huh? 😀 You’re pretty dismissive of atrocities committed by the US; Red Indians — only land, so who cares. Slavery — legal and constitutional. My Lai — so long ago. Hiroshima & Nagasaki — what’s a few hundred thousand. You actually sound like Wimal Weerawanse and the JHU 😉 what’s a few thousand Tamils, no?

And if the nukes hadn’t been dropped (after Japan refused to surrender) and 200 million people died in the ensuing land invasion because the Japanese were mobilizing civilians to fight, what would your reaction have been? By the way, you seem to be entirely unaware of Japanese atrocities; perhaps if the USA had allowed the Japanese to make a concubine out of your grandmother, you might be singing a different tune. Red Indians, blah blah blah, the average Red Indian of today has more educational and career opportunities than the average Sinhalese villager. Ever heard of affirmative action, Blacker? There are quotas for Red Indians in everything from medical school admissions to corporate hiring.

“Congratulations, Blacker, you actually brought up an intelligent point. Manning leaked military secrets in what amounts to treason . Treason is punishable by death in the USA etc”

I’m surprised you’re capable of recognising an intelligent point, but then you’ve got a lot of practice these days. Death isn’t the only penalty for treason in the US, and since you claimed earlier that Manning’s info was harmless, why the call for the maximum penalty? Also, if as you say, Assange is innocent of these charges, why are leadership figures and elements of the media calling for him to be illegally detained, tortured, and even murdered without a trial? Is this the famous lynch mob that American blacks faced for so large a part of US history?

I asked, “So what’s your point, that the west was as barbaric as the east? I agree.” And you say, “Congratulations, you just justified colonialism.”

So then you agree that western barbarism was the reason for their colonisation of Asia and Africa. Great, it seems you’ve been able to get past the obstacle of your own bigotry and think more progressively. So now you’ve got a first-hand example of how natural progression works. 🙂

“Are you saying your buddies in the SLA don’t hang prisoners upside down, attach electrodes to their scalp and pass current? What about the helicopter treatment? While I don’t agree with the electric chair way of being executed, it’s preferable to being killed and thrown in a lavatory pit, SLA style.”

So your defence of American torture and capital punishment is to point out that it’s also being done in a 3rd world country??? You sound like Weerawanse justifying the GoSL’s conduct 😀 Isn’t it the duty of the US as a supposed democratic and law-abiding nation, to set an example for the developing world instead of emulating it? As I said before, the US is the only nation in the western hemisphere to carry out the execution of criminals, along with nations such as Syria, Afghanistan, the Congo, Somalia, etc… oh, and of course, Singapore 😉

“Obviously, Blacker, you have never heard of Quakers or the Underground Railroad or the Abolitionist Movement.”

Oh, but I have. However, the struggle by these organisations to abolish slavery doesn’t absolve the USA of the crime any more than von Stauffenberg’s actions absolved the Nazis of the Holocaust.

“Japan was not first world until after WWII. “

Ah, the Heshan we know and love — ignorant and illiterate, and proud of it:D “From 1868, the Meiji period launched economic expansion. Meiji rulers embraced the concept of a free market economy and adopted British and North American forms of free enterprise capitalism. Japanese studied overseas and Western scholars were hired to teach in Japan. Many of today’s enterprises were founded at the time. Japan emerged as the most developed nation in Asia.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan#Economy) You can read more about the Meiji Period here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_period and you’ll find that some of the hallmarks of the era were “involvement of all classes in carrying out state affairs”, “the revocation class restrictions on employment”, and “an international search for knowledge to strengthen the foundations of imperial rule”. All of this long before either of the world wars, and at a time when Victorian England was in an iron-clad class society, and the Americans had moved from enslaving the blacks to wiping out the Red Indians.

Exactly. That’s what colonialism taught us — not democracy, but that the poor and weak are there to serve the rich and powerful, a concept that died out in the west with the death of absolute monarchies, but which was kept alive here by the colonial empire.

“Congratulations, Blacker, you actually brought up an intelligent point.

I’m surprised you recognised it, Heshan. But it’s about time. You’ve had enough practice.

“Treason is punishable by death in the USA. So Huckabee is justified.”

But you said the info was “harmless”, Heshan, so why try to kill him? And why call for Assange to be assassinated? Wouldn’t that be illegal? Doesn’t having your leadership and media calling for lynchings (something the US has a lot of experience with) make the US sound like a 3rd world country?

I said, “So what’s your point, that the west was as barbaric as the east? I agree.” And you say, “Congratulations, you just justified colonialism.”

So you admit that it was barbaric of the west to colonise Asia and Africa. OK. So then you will also have to admit that it was this barbarism by the west that hampered progressive thought in the colonies. Great, it looks like your own natural development is back on track after the obstacles of your bigotry.

“Are you saying your buddies in the SLA don’t hang prisoners upside down, attach electrodes to their scalp and pass current? What about the helicopter treatment? While I don’t agree with the electric chair way of being executed, it’s preferable to being killed and thrown in a lavatory pit, SLA style. 🙂 Bring back any *fond* memories, Blacker?”

So your defence of US torture and barbarism is that it’s being done in the 3rd world??? 😀 The US isn’t a 3rd world nation, Heshan, hadn’t you noticed? You can’t use that excuse the way the Weerawanses of the world do. Isn’t the US supposed to set an example in democratic governance and human rights instead of emulating less developed nations? As I said, the US is the only country in the west to still execute criminals, but it’s in good company — Afghanistan, Syria, Ethiopia, Somalia, etc… and oh, yes, Singapore 🙂

“Obviously, Blacker, you have never heard of Quakers or the Underground Railroad or the Abolitionist Movement.”

I have actually, but how does that change the fact that slavery was contrary to the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights? The organisations you mention worked to abolish slavery, but that doesn’t absolve the US from the crime any more than von Stauffenberg’s actions absolved the Nazis of the Holocaust.

“Japan was not first world until after WWII.”

Lol, ah the Heshan we all love — ignorant and illiterate, and happy with it. “From 1868, the Meiji period launched economic expansion. Meiji rulers embraced the concept of a free market economy and adopted British and North American forms of free enterprise capitalism. Japanese studied overseas and Western scholars were hired to teach in Japan. Many of today’s enterprises were founded at the time. Japan emerged as the most developed nation in Asia.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan#Economy) Long before either world war or any American occupation, Heshan. You can read more about this period here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_period — it’s called the Meiji Period, and some of the hallmarks of its tenure were things like “involvement of all classes in carrying out state affairs, “the revocation of sumptuary laws and class restrictions on employment”, and “an international search for knowledge to strengthen the foundations of imperial rule”. This at a time when the UK was an iron-clad class society, and the US had just stopped treating blacks like cattle and were beginning to wipe out the Red Indians and steal half of Mexico. Japan was 1st world long before the US 🙂

“The fault has to do with the combination of Buddhism + Sinhalese nationalism, aka Sinhala Buddhism , which is in some respects a perversion of actual Buddhism. I have already pointed out the remedy – Western liberalism.”

And I have shown you why your remedy won’t work.

“Considering that the emergence of the LTTE was inevitable , the notion of Eelam is not necessarily bad.”

Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Communism, all are not necessarily bad either; it’s the way that people go about practicing it that is the problem. National Socialism isn’t too bad in theory, but it gave us the Nazis; Communism seems perfect on paper too, but it gave us Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot; Christianity seems nice if you read the Bible, but it gave us the Crusades, the Inquisition, and an excuse for imperialism.

“You mean serfs of the type of S.W.R.D Bandaranaike and J.R. Jeyawardene who studied at Oxford?”

Exactly. That was what the west taught us. You’re finally beginning to understand.

“Last time I checked, Obama wasn’t the one unable to make a speech at the OU.”

Hardly a great loss, no? On the other hand, it’s a clear indictment against the Tamil diaspora and it’s thuggery and bullying of the OU. In the UK, the general Brit populace doesn’t seem to care either way.

“Abu Grahib was closed a long time ago… by your own admission, Gitmo is relatively harmless. Thus, your “examples” are either non-existent (outdated) or irrelevant. Got anything new Blacker?”

Abu Ghraib is still in operation, having been handed over to the Iraqis to continue what the US was caught red handed at 🙂 As a Christian, should you be lying in this manner, Rev Heshan, especially at Christmas? And could you show me where I said Gitmo was “harmless”? Are lies all you’ve got now, kid? Lol. The USSC has ruled Gitmo illegal under US law and a a violation of the Hague and Geneva Conventions (in other words, the people running it can be charged with war crimes) — one of the reasons the US is still refusing to sign up to the International Criminal Court in the Hague. Who’s hiding now, Heshan? 😀

“Of course, Blacker… having served in an organization given free license blah blah”

You’re repeating your earlier whining, Heshan 😀 Still no evidence, eh? Thought not. Oh and could you send me a copy of this “license”? I’d love to keep it in my wallet with my driving license 😀 Then, the next time I’m copped for speeding, I can pull it out and say “LOOK, Judge Advocate General Disaster Heshan says in Blacker vs Heshan that I’m Bond, James Bond, and I’ve got a license to party!”

“Detainees attacked at Boosa prision”

One incident two years ago. Got anything recent? 😀 And no one was even killed — isn’t that your criteria? And the minister said he was ensuring nothing like that was ever repeated.

“China was certainly exploited by the West; since you consider exploitation to be the only relevant aspect of colonization, there is hardly any difference.”

All of Asia was exploited by the west at some point; some of it still is. Where did I say that exploitation was the only relevant aspect. I told you there were many short term advantages to colonization and many long term disadvantages. It is the latter that is relevant today since the short term gains have been outlived. Is this all too complex for your level of intellect and education? I am having to explain things to you in single syllables it seem.

“The Opium War was the first step designed to open China along with its markets and resources for exploitation. The War itself physically opened China. However, it was the aftermath of the War that exposed China, economically, socially, politically and ideologically to the outside world. The unequal treaties signed after the Opium War were the primary mechanisms to open China.”

😀 Are you serious? You don’t know the difference between colonisation and trade monopolies??? Trade agreements, however unfair, don’t impact a country’s core culture. It can open a country up to outside influence as you say, but being open is not the same as colonisation lol. Come on, prof, your level of ignorance is making this debate. boring.

“Only two cities were nuked; the total casualties amounted to less than 200K. “

Only 200,000 huh? 😀 You’re pretty dismissive of atrocities committed by the US; Red Indians — only land, so who cares. Slavery — legal and constitutional. My Lai — so long ago. Hiroshima & Nagasaki — what’s a few hundred thousand. You actually sound like Wimal Weerawanse and the JHU 😉 what’s a few thousand Tamils, no?

“The Japanese economy and government were restructured along Western models. Funny you whine about the Japanese being untreated fairly. If the USA hadn’t stopped them, you would be speaking Japanese right now.”

So was Germany’s. I told you that 20th century western influences on a nation’s natural progress was minimal because the great ideas and ideals had already spread far and wide by then. As I told you when you childishly brought up the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, these short occupations were but a blink in the eye of history, and can’t be compared to the centuries-long influence of colonisation. Japanese and German resources weren’t simply stolen and whisked away to the mother country, nor were those countries ruled by the occupiers; after a few years of military administration they were allowed to conduct their own affairs. Are you seriously unable to comprehend the difference between this and colonisation? Even with your pedestrian intellect, it should be clear. As for the US stopping Japan, if not for the US, Japan wouldn’t have needed to go to war, so I’m sorry if I don’t kiss America’s arse in gratitude as you do. Same goes for Germany. WW2 wouldn’t have happened if not for the western allies short-sightedness. Also, ask anyone in Asia today whether they’d rather be in a Japanese-influenced world or an American one, and you won’t find many US fans — your economy is struggling, your manufacturing is dead, your people are fat and greedy, and no one buys your products.

“Only West Germany. East Germany is still lagging, so much for “traditional development!”

I think you mean western Germany and eastern. And the latter is lagging economically because it was under the Soviet system — and the latter was probably the closest thing to colonisation in the 20th century. If 50 years of Soviet rule could still be affecting a country 20 years later, you might get an idea of the impact of centuries of colonisation.

“o you know what the “UK” even stands for. Scotland and Ireland were at war with Britain for more than 700 year blah blah”

[Edited out] It’s because Scotland, Ireland etc were defeated that their peoples needed to look overseas for opportunity, staffing the empire. Federal?? 😀 England itself was hardly a democracy and the Scottish parliament was controlled by the English crown.

“If SL was landlocked and the war was fought with primitive weapons (as opposed to the modern ones that finally gave GOSL an overwhelming edge), something similar would have occurred there.”

Ha ha really? If SL was landlocked it would have become a parliamentary monarchy? How do you figure that out, Einstein? The UK isn’t landlocked either, and both England and Scotland used similar weapons, just like the Army and the Tigers. Where do you get your history from — Braveheart?

“A monarchist-type government is not the ideal form of government for a modern capitalist society, which makes your “natural development” theory go up in smoke. Modern society is about having a government subject to checks-and-balances, and having an economy that blah blah”

Well I don’t really care that you don’t like the British or Japanese systems, and given that both nations are more successful than yours, neither does anyone else. Perhaps you should write ’em a letter in your own unique way stating that they’re not modern societies. I’m sure there’ll be much wrist slashing 😀

“Hong Kong and Singapore were colonized. How do you explain their success?”

[Edited out] Hong Kong is an autonomous city (a real one, [Edited out]), administered as a city-state by China. Singapore IS a city/state.

“I’ve already explained in SL that before the colonials came most people were fishing, engaged in paddy cultivation, or climbing coconut trees. Whether you like it or not, it was the Christian colonials who broke the trend.”

Exactly my point. Have you got it now? Back in Holland, England, Belgium etc most people were fishing, farming, or killing their neighbours. When they ran outta space and neighbours, they came over here and grabbed ours.

“Free public education and the ability to move up the social ladder were European Christian ideals at odds with the rigid class/caste system in SL. The Europeans were also the ones who opened up the economies of these places to the outside world for trade.”

We’ve been through all this before, heshan. When I teach you something new, I expect you to go home and digest it, not come back and repeat the same ignorant mantra. There was neither free education, nor the ability to move up any ladders in the class-ridden societies of Europe’s empires at the start of the colonial adventure. These things were part of their own natural development, and while these things progressed in the mother countries, they were suppressed for obvious reasons by the masters in their colonies. I hope you’re taking notes, [Edited out], so that I don’t have to repeat the lesson. Also, the Europeans didn’t “open up” the colonies for trade as you so amusingly phrase it; they acquired all the native resources for themselves and traded these for their own profit. The natives got nothing. Its called stealing. Very Christian that.

“And your point is?”

That ideas such as universal franchise, democracy, and gender equality didn’t begin to develop in the colonies until after independence. How many shots at this do you need, Heshan?

“you can blame that on people like Anagarika Dharmapala.”

Clutching at straws again aren’t you? Dharmapala wasn’t ruling SL, the British were.

I said, “So when colonisation was then removed, there had been no natural development of democratic principles, human rights, gender rights or anything else
in the interim centuries.” And you ask, “Based on what – the denial of universal franchise?” 😀 Are you stoned again or is English beyond your grasp?

“Mistake = zero progress since the colonialists left?”

It took the US almost a century to even make a pretence of implementing the Declaration of Independence, over 150 years for universal franchise and gender equality, almost two centuries for ethnic equality — in our 60-odd years of independence we have achieved all of this, the majority right from the outset; it has taken the US over 200 years to have a black president, and it has never had a female one — in contrast, we had a female PM (the world’s first female national leader) within 20 years of independence as well as a female president.

“Last time I checked, the “Cultural Revolution” was 100% Chinese-directed, as was the brains behind it. Therefore, I can put “Cultural Revolution” on the “natural progression” list”

There is no list 🙂 Progression is a road that nations travel down to create the ideal society. Sometimes the road is blocked by our own devices — slavery, xenophobia, communism, religious extremism — and sometimes it is blocked by external devices such as colonialism, but the sooner countries overcome these the faster the progress.