What is the bigger lie? US resolution in Geneva or number of people in Vanni in 2009?
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“One of the rankest untruths in the public domain today is that the US resolution is innocuous and unobjectionable…” said Amb. Dayan Jayatilleka in his article THE BIG LIE ABOUT THE US RESOLUTION on 16th March 2012. It would be pertinent to question whether a bigger untruth in the public domain since 2009 is about the population in Vanni in 2009. Correct me if I’m wrong – but from my memory, Amb. Jayatilleke was a party to this lie, helped cover it up – and never offered an explanation even afterwards.
Population in LTTE controlled Vanni
- On 30th Jan. 2009, according to official government website: 75,000 – 100,000 people (high side!) (See here)
- On 26th Feb. 2009 according to government website, quoting the Defense Secretary – 70,000 people (See here)
Now let us compare above with what is stated in Government’s version of events in last few months of the war – “Humanitarian Operation Factual Analysis” available here - see the numbers of people who had crossed over from LTTE controlled Vanni to Govt controlled areas:
- By 1st week of Feb: Over 20,000 (para 175)
- 20th April: Over 42,000 (para 197)
- 21st / 22nd April: Over 60,000 (para 198)
And after this, it seems the estimated civilian population was 70,000 (para 201)
- After 17th May: about 80,000 (para 207 and 208)
So if we are to believe the population was indeed 70,000 in February, how come around 182,000 people (the government report indicates more have come, but no clear figures available) crossed over from LTTE controlled Vanni to government controlled areas in April and May alone? Then let us look at some other figures about the Vanni population – available now publicly thanks to the LLRC (pending the official statistics from the census)
- Total population in LTTE controlled Vanni in end of September 2008 and early October 2008 : 429,059 (Based on two signed and stamped documents from Mullativu and Killinochi Kacheris presented to the LLRC on 8th Jan. 2010 by the Catholic Bishop of Mannar – transcript available at official LLRC website)
- Total population in LTTE controlled Vanni on 22nd January 2009: 350,000 – 360,000 (Testimony to the LLRC on 24th November 2011 by the then Government Agent of Mullativu and present Government Agent of Jaffna, Mrs. Imelda Sukumar) See transcript available at LLRC’s official website.
- Arrivals to Government controlled areas from LTTE controlled Vanni after 27th Oct. 2108 – 282,380 persons (Figures compiled by UN based on figures reported by Government Agents) available here.
So what about the differences?
So what are lies and what are truths?
What are the implications of the lie(s)?
Why hasn’t any government official clarified?
Why LLRC didn’t pursue this when it had clear documentary evidence and oral testimony?
When there is doubt – or confusion about fate of 80,000 or even 146,000 Sri Lankan citizens – our brothers and sisters – is it not so important to clarify?
Or is there some explanation that has eluded me which makes all these add up as truths and no lies and hence no need to pursue or clarify?
Sri Lanka is now the debacle of Asia! The impact of the Geneva resolution on the economy in the form of missed opportunities and investments.
Dear WATCHDOG;
For me the biggest living lie on the planet is denying the fact that Blue Whale is the biggest animal on earth.
But it does not refute the argument brought forward by Dr. Jayatilleka, in his article.
You may discredit his character, that is all.
Thanks!
Yapa:
(Or is that ‘Yapper?”)
You can defend Dayan J. till the cows come home but there is no getting away from what the man is, his role with a monumentally corrupt, dishonest and violent government and the fact that he should NOT see publication in any self-respecting journal that places value on intellectual and other forms of honesty.
He can shout “ad hominem” till the cows come home, but
even Goebbels couldn’t deny the relevance of his being Hitler’s mouthpiece when he came under criticism!
There is no attempt to “discredit” Dr Jayatilleka in this note. I think it is another attempt to open the eyes of Dr Jayatilleka regarding this regime. His continuing defence of the regime in the name of anti-imperialism is not going to deliver any relief to the sufferings of SL people. Can Dr Jayatilleka explain how it is possible that the ‘zero civilian casualty’ government stance of the last 3 years suddenly changed to 7000?
Dear Against Fraud;
I am not Defending Dayan J, but his argument. I respect your right to argue against him, but just rhetoric is unacceptable.
Thanks!
Dear Anapayan;
There may be lies from the part of the regime as you said, yet they do not debunk the argument brought forward by Dr. DJ.
Nothing else would make him wrong in the contents of his article.
You can debunk and after that humiliate him, not before that, I think that is the rule of the game.
When DR. DJ sends a ball at your wicket, you will have to play it. Try a six, that is the best way to “treat” him. Insulting him won’t send the ball away, it only shows the batsman’s bankruptcy.
Thanks
Dear WATCHDOG/Against Fraud/Anapayan;
If this was a competition for choosing the biggest liar, WATCHDOG’s endeavour is fine. I have heard of story about a biggest liar competition, I would like to share with you.
When an old man came there a group of boys were sitting around a ripe jak fruit and doing something the “seeya” (grand father) could not understand, so the seeya inquired from the lads what they were doing. One fellow said, “seeya we are holding a competition of choose the biggest liar from us, all of us have been telling the lies, still we were unable to find the “best lie”, can you help us seeys?”
Then the seeya replied “Koluwane, lying is a very big sin, don’t do it, for you will go to the hell(and meet the politicians, the biggest misery, one can have even in the hell). You know kollane, now my age is 105, but I have never told a lie in my whole life.
All the boys unanimously gifted the valuable jak fruit to seeya.
Moral: Some people’s virtue could be a lie.
Therefore trying to be a bigger liar has no virtue.
Thanks!
Dear Yapa,
“When DR. DJ sends a ball at your wicket, you will have to play it. Try a six, that is the best way to “treat” him. Insulting him won’t send the ball away, it only shows the batsman’s bankruptcy.”
I am sorry, please point me to where exactly DR DJ has been insulted that prompted you to write the above.
The figures discredit his credibility as are his contradictory views seen from his various writings.
Dear Burning_Issue;
“I am sorry, please point me to where exactly DR DJ has been insulted that prompted you to write the above.”
I don’t think there is a single by Dr. Jayatileka, where he has not been insulted, instead of countering his arguments. I will give a few examples. You can go through the comments of the articles by Dr. Jayatillake and understand yourself this fact.
1.”Precisely why you and the regime you support are criminals.”
http://groundviews.org/2012/03/16/the-big-lie-about-the-us-resolution/#comment-42454
2. a. “People like Dayan are the opportunists as much as our lying and cheating politicians.”
b. “But then, who can blame Dayan for singing for his supper!!
http://groundviews.org/2012/03/16/the-big-lie-about-the-us-resolution/#comment-42473
3.”There is not point of counteracting DJ’s arguments because he argues these points not from any convictions of their truth but from the sole purpose of safeguarding Rajapaksha siblings and their rule.”
http://groundviews.org/2012/03/16/the-big-lie-about-the-us-resolution/#comment-42526
4. “One of the dependable props of the Rajapakse government is a handful of ambassadors singing superbly for their supper.”
http://groundviews.org/2012/03/16/the-big-lie-about-the-us-resolution/#comment-42483
5. “After writing this you have shown us beyond any reasonable doubt how far you are prepared to go to white wash this disgusting regime of Rajapaksha siblings.”
http://groundviews.org/2012/03/16/the-big-lie-about-the-us-resolution/#comment-42525
Dear Burning_Issue; above are from just a single article. Do you think they are not insults?
Thanks!
Dear Yapa,
“Dear Burning_Issue; above are from just a single article. Do you think they are not insults?”
Thanks for your reply. I am pretty sure that DR DJ is eternally grateful for your support.
Several people including many Scholars on these forums debated with DR DJ and pointed out his duplicity; his only defense is that no compromise on the nation’s sovereignty as if there is an impending danger to that effect!
I have also read many posts from DR DJ; especially during the aftermath of the fall of the Tigers; he was being euphoric and insensitive towards anyone who mentioned about the IDPs and their treatments. He even made comments such as go and see at Nunddikaddal you will see Eelam etc. Anyone who had concerns for the IDPs and the reckless nature of the MR regime at that time had to be Tiger sympathizers! He gives out as good as he gets; I would suggest the he is big enough to stand up for himself if you do not mind.
Dear Burning_Issue;
You asked for examples, I provided exactly the same, why no you are blaming me?
If I did not provide, what would be your response, I am clueless, dear Burning_Issue? Please help me.
Thanks!
Correction…….
“why [no] you are blaming me?”
should be corrected as
“why now you are blaming me?”
Thanks!
GOVT agents estimate as of 2009, given to the LLRC in 2010 is just an estimate. I don’t know how the bishop of Mannar counted the population. an Estimate is not a calculation.
The total number of arrivals is a calculation. a census is a calculation. an estimate is not it is an estimation. The pressure from the LTTE, the agents own corruption to steal from the stocks of aid that was sent, may explain why the figures were exaggerated.
whether you believe or not, the version on the ‘governments official news portal’ is not the figure used by government officials in various government departments for doing their work.
One must learn to distinguish propaganda from official figures.
According to the LTTE they had 20,000 cadres as of January. So the 8000 cassualties + 11,000 who gave themselves up, if we believe LTTE then not a single civilian had died. (I don’t think anyone with a brain would believe that)
The official ‘estimate’ of the UN’s World food programme was the figure used by the CGES (Commissioner General of Essential Services) for sending food and medicine to the Vanni. Which was something like 220,000.
Why did the WFP ignore the government agent’s figure in estimating the total population of the Vanni?
The decision on sending Humanitarian assistance was taken as a collective (not just by the GOSL) by ambassadors, UN heads each month at the CCHA (consultative committee on Humanitarian Assistance).
These are good questions? Why is everyone squirming about them? Perhaps Sri Lanka does need Navi Pillai overseeing the process after all.
Even more damning than the manipulation of civilian numbers, is the argument that the GOSL used to justify the deinal of medical supplies. The reason that was publicly given was that the LTTE will confiscate some of the supplies in order to treat their wounded cadre. But wait a minute, that’s a war crime in itself. Warring parties have a responsibility to provide medical supplies to their wounded opponents if they have the ability to do so. It’s actually in the Geneva convention! Incredibly, the public excuse for commiting a war crime, is in itself another war crime! The deeper problem is that no member of the GOSL, was able to grasp the concept that members of the LTTE were also human beings who command a level of dignity for no other reason than that: they are human. The affairs of men sometimes brings us to these situations, where we fire our weapons at each other, but it shall not rob us of our humanity, and our humanity demands that we provide medicine to the very souls that we injured.
Unfortunately, it is this lack of empathy, the inability to recognize the humanity in ones own sworn enemy, is the underlying reason for the events captured on the Channel 4 video. It is the reason that the prisoners were stripped naked before being shot in the back of the head. To strip from them their last shred of diginity, their last shred of humanity.
Yes, Patriot! In all the battles and wars other than that of Si Lanka, warring parties sent medical supplies to the enemy. They shared their medical supplies with each other. USA did that in Japan, in Germany, in Vietnam (Agent Orange is a medicine), in Iraq, in Afghanistan…… UK and France were not different, they put medicine to the rivers in America to be used by Red Indians, unfortunately they died in thousands due the allergies. How many of children, pregnant women and old people died themselves for no fault of westerners , under western economic sanctions, even though they sent ample supplies of medicine to those civilians in addition to the warring enemies. Even the LTTE sent medical supplies to the government forces though the government forces failed in that noble duty.
When such good people level allegation at Sri Lanka, for short supplying of medicine to its (fascist) enemy, it is a crime and unforgivable crime. Humanity should be respected though all those are sub-humans, yes Patriot!, you are absolutely right, It is our duty and of non others’.
Thanks!
i think you make very valid arguments. The Math does not add up. Being caught up in propganda is one thing but reality is another. But DJ is right if he points to the rank hypocrisy of the Christian American nation. From war crimes in Falluja where they used white Phosphorous, to trophy hunting in Afghanistan to MyLai massacre in Vietnam NO ONE has ever demanded war crimes trials against the US and its top leaders. Today being the anniverasy of their immoral war in Iraq(Shock and Awe) perhaps third world nations should submit a resolution demanding US be held accountable just like Sri Lanka needs to be held accountable.
Being a Christian nation it has got away with far more murder and war crimes around the world than Sri lanka has. Not one commission of enquiry was instituted to investigate civilian deaths in the battle of Falluja or the initial invasion phase. In 2005 Prof Sloboda of UK based IBC said Professor John Sloboda said that their report on civilian casualties in Iraq was never formerly acted upon. He said “Our report has shown that what is lacking is not the capacity to do this work but the will.”
Ergo, the Christian hypocrite Blake and the one time Deputy Goddess of Iraq Butenis are both rank hypocrites because they too lack the will to be honest and be held accountable. Butenis in particular was a cheer leader for Bush’s policies in Iraq. What did it bring the Iraqi people? 1 million IDPs and 2 million refugees, a sectarian war and radical Islam spreading like wildfire. I hope you can share this with them.
Because in that case(including the rape and murder of a teenage girl in Haditha and the killing of her entire family to silence them) and the massacre of 22 civilians by Marines were never cause for investigations. Their “precision weapons” alone killed nearly 10,000 civilians in the initial phase of the war.
A Dossier on Civilian Casualties in Iraq from, 2003-2005 – provides a grim catalogue of death and injury.(BBC) A total of 24,865 civilians were reported killed in the first two years of the conflict, beginning with the invasion, almost 20% of them women or children.
Professor John Sloboda, one of the authors of the report, said.
“Our report has shown that what is lacking is not the capacity to do this work but the will.”
In the greater scheme of things, when such people are about to meet their maker their rank hypocrisy will cause them a lot of pain and a visa rejection to enter through the pearly gates. What the SL govt has failed to do is to get support to pass a resolution to invetigate American war crimes and America’s use of torture, rendition and chemical weapons to kill people. This week the man who murdered 16 innocent Afghans was secretly ferreted out to the US.. If Lt. Calley’s and Capt. Medina’s trials for the rape and slaughter of over 500 innocent babies, women and other civilians at MyLai(March 16, 1968) or Senator Bob Kerrey’s(D) massacre of 22-25 civilians(he admitted to it) are to go by, then we know what a hypocritical society US is.
I raise these points because the US is bringing this resolution because SL is caught in a geo-political power struggle. Sure it must be held accountable, but so should the US. To Channel 4′s silly Tiger videos, the reason VP and his family had to be wiped out is the same reason Obama order a cap in BinLaden’s a@@ so to speak and same reason Wijeweera was executed. English speaking elite from St.Thomas’ did not seem to mind that change in the country then. If VP’s son was a combatant it does not matter how he was killed. The US would do the same. It killed Alawiki without a trial because Alawiki was an enemy of the state. VP and his family were sworn enemies of the state of Sri Lanka and had sworn to destroy it. Destroying them had to be done the same way Bin Laden had to be killed and not brought to trial and the same way the US is killing via airstrikes even American citizens around the world.
apologies for my typos. anniversary being one of them. As General Tommy Franks said “We dont do body counts” when he was asked how many civilians were killed. He is a true American hero an potential Republican Vice-Presidential candidate. SL should have said “we don’t do body counts” when we fight the world’s toughest, deadliest guerilla force.
Accountability apparently does not extend to white Christian nations waging war.
Exodus and eviction in Sri Lanka’s civil war
———– Sharika Thiranagama
http://www.thehindu.com/arts/books/article3012933.ece
Thanks!
The biggest lie is that the Sri Lankan Gvt killed innocent civilians and the cover up of it. US resolution is trying to uncover this lie!!!!
‘Watchdog’, I was never party to any lie; certainly never a witting one, which is why I never defended the murders of the Trinco 5, the ACF 17, Lasantha Wickrematunga et al.
While I do not believe that anything remotely like 40,000 civilians died during that time, my points in Geneva then and wherever else now are that (i) these casualties were not the intended result of policy, i.e. were not intentional (ii) whatever the numbers, it does not alter the quintessentially just character of the war, because the horrendous firebombing by the Allies of Dresden and the even ghastlier atomic bombing of two Japanese population centres, did not alter the just character of the Allied war against the fascist Axis powers and (iii) the butchers of Vietnam and Iraq (eg Fallujah) have no moral right to sit in judgement of Sri Lanka.
The article you mention takes aim at the outright lie that the US resolution ‘merely’ calls on Sri lanka to commit to the implementation of its own LLRC Report, and is therefore unobjectionable.
I might add the obvious point, made precisely on Groundviews during the siege by Prof Mike Roberts, that the casualties are a result of the LTTE’s adoption of a human shield tactic and the embedding of heavy weapons among them, and that in other endgame situations in military history, such as WW II, armies have had no choice but to press ahead.
The point was argued at much greater length by Godfrey Gunatilleka the renowned ex-civil servant, literary critic and intellectual in his submission for the MARGA seminar and report on the Darusman panel, as well as by the LLRC which examined the issue from the perspective of international law.
On the no fire zones (NFZ) there is another point view expressed which may be pertinent here. It is a known fact that the NFZs were unilaterally declared by the GoSL without consultation, let alone agreement with the LTTE. These earmarked areas were, supposedly, already mini LTTE strongholds where they had their artillery and other military wherewithal. It therefore made sense for GoSL to declare them as NFZs to force the hand of the LTTE to move their camps away from these zones, thus disadvantaging them militarily or face the consequence of being accused of employing human shields. With this strategy – if it went unnoticed – it afforded some justification too for GoSL to direct fire into the NFZ as retaliatory fire, as is being claimed now, disregarding the increasing number of civilians who were pouring into the NFZ. The horrendous number of deaths that occurred in the NFZs, it is alleged, was a consequence of this strategy by the GoSL. The claims of “Zero civilian casualty”, “Mission to rescue Tamils”, “gun in one hand and a copy of the human rights charter in the other” etc it seems were pre-emptive propaganda strikes to hide this cunning strategy.
Velu, while the unilateral declaration of the NFZs by the GoSL was most probably a strategy to deny the Tigers the areas, this has nothing whatsoever to do with the human shields issue. The latter charg is not dependent on the NFZs. Also, there is no evidence that more civilians were killed because they moved into the NFZs. Certainly many people moved into the first NFZ where Tiger defensive positions were already situated, but the Tigers then actively moved more weapons and troops in there. In the case of the second NFZ on the coast, the civilians were already in that area before it was declared an NFZ so it is not possible to declare that their casualties were increased because they were in an NFZ.
Has Yapa become the defender of the good doctor? When the doctor is silent about all these allegation why has Yapa taken everything so personally? Is it from the sheer adoration of the ‘hero of our time’?
Dear PitashtharaPuthraya;
No, I am defending the truth against the audacity.
Thanks Dear PitashtharaPuthraya!
There may be many more than 40,000 civilians killed? The anti-rajapakses (sorry I mean non-patriots) will soon find out when Ms Pillai’s independent international team starts foraging around. This could be the best thing that ever happened to the people of this wretched island.
The point Watchdog raises is a good one. The question is whether DJ or anyone else in government for that matter was aware that the number of civilians trapped in the Vanni was more than 7Ok and closer to the 282 k that actually came out, and if so, whether they knowingly propogated the government’s position on 7Ok publicly. The question is not merely of moral relevance, but may have certain legal implications as well.
Aadhavan, at that Marga Institute seminar on the Darusman Report, a former Vavuniya GA claimed that the numbers from previous population tallies were regarded with suspicion by the authorities because the Tigers routinely inflated the population figures in order to skim off government supplies for themselves. Not sure if you were in the audience at that point.
Dear DB;
At that point of discussion, Aadhavan got an urgent call from nature and went out immediately to get his clothes dried. So, he didn’t hear.
Ha! Ha!!
Thanks!
No, wasn’t at the seminar at that point. That line that you refer to was the standard line of the government during the last stages, though it defenders seem to have abandoned it since. I think there’s some merit in that claim. For instance, the figure cited by the GA’s in late 2OO8 was close to 45Ok, while Imelda Sukumar’s latest estimate [somewhere in early 2OO9] if I’m not mistaken was 36Ok. So there may have been some inflation in the earlier estimate – or not. I suppose the test is whether in light of what the evidence the government had – the estimates provided by the UN, by their GA’s etc, their own real time UAV footage of the entirety of the war zone – whether they could have had the reasonable belief that the number was not in excess of 7Ok. I think you know what my answer is, and I think I know yours, so let’s wait and see. Let time be the arbiter.
I think the actual point is motive. If Dayan, or whichever GoSL spokesman, knowingly gave a reduced figure, is that itself criminal? If the motive was to reduce the perceived severity of the situation, and how many civilians were in danger, well, isn’t that what all governments do? Did such a claim actually add to the dangers the civilians faced? Again, part of the accusation about the figures is that the GoSL deliberately undercounted so that they could send in less supplies and allow more civilians to die in IDP camps of starvation, etc. This was also debunked at the seminar by Jeevan Thigaraja, who was involved in the IDP care, and who claimed that the GoSL departments did everything they could to feed and care for the IDPs.
What WATCHDOG trying to reiterate is a fact though, the government had erred, and the government no more denies it. It is already concluded that government figure was wrong.
Is there anything to argue about a fact?, Irrelevant.
Further,Do you think a true fact refute all other facts?
Issue is whether the the true fact provided by WATCHDOG really refute or act as a counter against the argument put forward by Dr. DJ, as aimed by WATCHDOG?
An irrelevant and futile exercise, just like applying medicine on your back to cure elephantiasis. (paya baravayata piti kara beheth bandeema).
Problem is not with the medicine, the medicine is good, but see the place where WATCHDOG is applying it.
It is an irrelevant, futile exercise. He is wasting the medicine.
Thanks!