The desecration of graves in Jaffna: Path to reconciliation?
The following article was published in the Uthayan newspaper on 5 March 2011. The translation to English is based on a Sinhala translation published in Vikalpa.
Not a single Sinhala newspaper to date has published a similar account, though many reported on the opening of the new Army Headquarters in Jaffna. Of the English media, only the Daily Mirror quotes a BBC report on the desecration of the graves. As well-known blogger Guruparan notes in a succinct tweet, “This is really sad. A local newspaper has to quote an international media to report on a local story.”
No other English media online or in print have covered this story. Readers on our Facebook page have expressed grave concern and outrage over this action by the Army. Sadly, this is not the first time the Army has desecrated LTTE graves. An interview with Prof. Michael Roberts conducted in December 2010 explores this issue in detail, and why it is so damning to reconciliation and a lasting peace in Sri Lanka. As Prof. Roberts notes in an essay dealing with this outrageous practice, “The absence of tuyilam illam, in other words, will serve as a focal point for enhanced embitterment towards the government.”
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The new headquarters of the 51st Brigade of the Army was opened on the Koppai Cemetery ground yesterday (4th March). The Chief Guest for the event was Army Commander Jagath Jayasuriya, who opened the new headquarters. The event was presided over by Jaffna Army Commander Maj. Gen. Mahinda Hathurusinghe. The entire area was decorated for the event. Up until recently, the Army HQ operated from the Subash Hotel in Jaffna. This hotel was used at the Army HQ for 16 years when in 1995, the Army regained control of Jaffna from the LTTE.
Last year, steps were taken to move the HQ of the 51st Brigade out of the city. A decision was taken to erect the new HQ on the vacant LTTE cemetery grounds. In order to erect the new HQ, all the graves in the LTTE cemetery were destroyed. After this, with Chinese funding, the new Army HQ’s work began last year. After the completion of construction, the new HQ was declared open by Army Commander Jagath Jayasuriya yesterday. A number of officials from the Army, Navy and Police were present at the function.
It is reported that the new Army HQ has all the amenities and was constructed to the latest techniques. After declaring the new HQ open, the Uthayan was informed by a highly placed Army official that all administrative affairs were going to be conducted from the new building. Although most administrative functions had been transferred to the new HQ from the Subash Hotel, the technical division and a few other departments continued to function at the old location, though the Army official said that all these would be soon transferred to the new HQ and the entire Subash Hotel would be handed over to its owners.
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Destroying cemetaries in an attempt to erase a community is a war crime. However, this is not what is happening. LTTE is a terrorist organisation in the country and in 32 other nations – in most developed democracies.
Most LTTE cadres were Hindus. Hindus don’t bury, they cremate. So technically these are not cemetaries but mere memorials for LTTE cadres.
Removing constructions glorifying such a terrorist group is not a crime. If it is a crime, legal recourse can be sought. But since it is not, no legal action will be taken by anyone.
Army camps in the north are an essential part of reconciliation. Reconciliation must happen within the Sri Lankan political, economic, military, social, cultural framework. Certainly not within any alien framework.
The issue of whether these were graves or simply war memorials depends on the whether LTTE cadres were buried here or not. If there are bodies buried on this site, surely you would agree that it is unacceptable to simply bulldoze the site and build over it? Did the authorities bother to check if there are bodies buried here or not?
Agree.
It was done. Please read Dr Muttukrishna Sarvananthan’s account below.
Sadly those who are concerned about a few years old LTTE “graveyards” don’t show any regard for thousands of years old Buddhist sites in Jaffna!
Kadurugoda (Kandarodai in Tamil) where there’s an ancient Buddhist shrine was has been used for building! What has been allocated to the site is a very small area than what the ancient shrine was used to be. Now it is occupied by other constructions. Likewise there are close to a hundred ancient Buddhist sites are there in the north. All these must be cleared and restored.
That is a worthier cause.
These are only a few of many more sites.
http://www.lankanewspapers.com/news/2007/3/12992_space.html
All must be reestablished to historical extents.
Same goes for other religious sites too including mosques.
TT, this is a waste of both time and taxpayers’ money. If there are any such sites of historical value, the Department of Architecture can restore them if that is still possible. As for the rest, if there is any interest shown by Buddhist members of the public in restoring them, these believers can fund them.
DB,
No disrespect but I have not heard of any Department of Architecture in the country!
Even if there is such a department, they should not be allowed to do anything with these historical sites. Dept of Archaeology can handle it.
“If there are any such sites of historical value, the Department of Architecture can restore them if that is still possible.”
Why so many conditions? Of course there are such sites! And restitution to the former EXTENT is possible. It must be done at all cost. It doesn’t cost so much to restore them. After that devotees will take care of them with little government support.
“No disrespect but I have not heard of any Department of Architecture in the country! :”
My mistake, TT; that should have been Dept of Archeology. Don’t worry about it. If I were you, I’d be more concerned about the 39 different issues you were unable to raise responses to in the previous thread.
“Why so many conditions? Of course there are such sites! And restitution to the former EXTENT is possible.”
Well, TT, since you’re not an archeologist, we can’t take your word either for the existence of sites of historical value, nor for whether they can be restored. These are just two conditions, and they’re quite reasonable.
“It must be done at all cost. It doesn’t cost so much to restore them.”
Well not at my cost, thank you. It’s bad enough that my tax money is paying for Buddhist priests to drive around in luxury cars and for temples to be put up all over the south; I don’t wish to spend on more in the North. If they are truly of historical value, fine, if not, let the Buddhists pay. Or at least the Buddhists who care.
“After that devotees will take care of them with little government support.”
Why should there be GoSL support?
DB,
Rubbish! I have answered ALL your questions. Only issue is you don’t agree with my answers which is perfectly alright.
“If they are truly of historical value, fine”
They are. So that resolves it!
“I have answered ALL your questions. Only issue is you don’t agree with my answers which is perfectly alright.”
Really? Can you quote an answer you have provided to even ONE of those 39 issues that I have listed out?
“They are [of historical value]. So that resolves it!”
How does your opinion on the historical value of something matter, given that you’re not qualified to make that judgement?
DB,
Check previous posts for answers!
It’s not in my opinion. It is in the opinion of qualified archaeologists (not architecs!
). There are many Buddhist historical sites in the Jaffna peninsula. ALL these must be restored to their HISTORICAL EXTENT.
Some work has already begun which is a good thing.
“Check previous posts for answers!”
There are no answers to these 39 issues. Can you quote even one such answer?
“It’s not in my opinion. It is in the opinion of qualified archaeologists”
Really? Can you quote any of these archeologists by name as saying that most or many of the Buddhist sites are of historical value, and in a state that can be restored?
The Sri Lankan army’s move to open it’s headquarters on the site of the Tamil people graveyard that was earlier destroyed by the army is shocking !!
What kind of “reconciliation” is this ?
In that Tamil graveyard , there were about 2,000 dead bodies were buried .
This racist government is NOT interested in welfare of the Tamils, and the President who promised a ’13+ Political Package’ before killing more than 40,000 Tamil Civilians in May 2009 is not interested in implementing any political package or the current constitution in full
[The President] is living on Racism and Sri Lanka state terrorism against small minority.
@Kurrukullam – You’ll be the same racist who’ll cey over having army HQ in the Jaffna town or in Civillian’s lands. When it is moved to a cemetery of traitors, then also you start whinging. GOSL can decide where they can erect army camps as long as the land is public. Tamil racists cannot decide that.
This is how 21st century “Dutu-Gemunus” pay respect to the dead!!!
Graves or cult symbols?
I really don’t understand why terrorist are well looked after in some countries, those are not civilian cemetery they are terrorist cemetery & they are just monument, witch needed to remove, in a civilized country terrorist must not live, LTTE was a terrorist group & they are not tamil people they were terrorist
The desecration of the dead is meant to humiliate the Tamil people.
This along with the use of rape as a weapon of war really define who the SL Army is. Well that and the fact the army is nearly all Singhalese!
To the Tamils, the SL army are the terrorists.
To the Singhalese, the SL army are heroes.
Curiously, it is largely the Tamil lands the Army is occupying.
Why don’t the Singhalese fed and care for the SL army using their own land and resources?
But there is no evidence of rape being used by the SL Army as a weapon of war.
Absolutely!
Had such barbaric means benn used as weapons of war, this war would not have lasted 26 years. Look at most LTTE cadres – they are women and children! LTTE would have stood absolutely no chance whatsoever had the army used such tactics. No one would have imagined of joing the LTTE in such a case. It never happened. Sadly the IPKF exploited this weakness of the LTTE. And LTTE exploited this weakness of IPKF.
Really, TT? You think rape is an effective way of fighting a war? Can you show me any army that has won because they used rape? And where did you hear that the Tigers were mostly women and children?
DB,
“effective”?
Is this a dirty joke?
I never said so!
The effective way to fight a war has been shown already by SLA. Also the IPKF showed how NOT to fight a war. And the US army in Iraq.
LTTE had a larger number of women and children than ALL conventional armies and most terrorist groups.
““effective”? Is this a dirty joke? I never said so!”
Yes you did. Here are your words: “Had such barbaric means benn used as weapons of war, this war would not have lasted 26 years. LTTE would have stood absolutely no chance whatsoever had the army used such tactics.”?strong>
Have you descended to outright lies now, TT, instead of deceit?
“LTTE had a larger number of women and children than ALL conventional armies and most terrorist groups.”
But you said “Look at most LTTE cadres – they are women and children!”
Most means the majority, TT
DB,
Nowhere it says it was an effective way!
You introduce words.
OK, may not be MOST (no numbers available) but a larger number than armies and other terror groups.
“Nowhere it says it was an effective way!”
Come, come, TT, your lies are transparent. You said that if the SL Army had used rape the war would have been won long ago, and that the Tigers would have been defeated by the tactic. How does that not mean effective?
At least be a gentleman and admit you were wrong, and move on. The more you lie the more you look like a supporter of rape.
“OK, may not be MOST (no numbers available) but a larger number than armies and other terror groups.”
If no numbers are available, how do you know that the Tigers employed more women than say the Palestinian terrorists, or the Israeli military, or Al Qaeda in Iraq, or the Viet Cong?
DB,
What on earth are you implying?
There are many ways to end wars including international intervention. It may also end in defeat or not winning. That is not EFFECTIVE but defective way to end wars.
BTW I see nothing funny here.
“What on earth are you implying?”
Oh, I’ve been quite clear in my implication
You said that rape would have ended the war in a short time as the Tigers couldn’t have withstood such a tactic as their force was made up mostly of women. What did YOU imply by this?
“BTW I see nothing funny here.”
Oh, I assure you that advocating rape as a winning strategy is nothing to laugh at. However, lying pathetically about what you said is.
DB,
First it was “effective” now “winning”.
You are free to hold any view based on your knowledge, experience and inclination for youself.
Oh, but I haven’t expressed a view on rape, TT, based on my experience or otherwise. I’m questioning your view which is articulated here: “Had such barbaric means benn used as weapons of war, this war would not have lasted 26 years. Look at most LTTE cadres – they are women and children! LTTE would have stood absolutely no chance whatsoever had the army used such tactics.”
Dear Denesh,
You said, “LTTE was a terrorist group & they are not tamil people they were terrorist.” Ha…ha…what have you been smoking??? If the LTTE were not Tamils, WHO WERE THEY? Were they by any chance American citizens like Gotabaya and Basil?
Most LTTE cadres/leaders may have been Tamils but only a minute percentage of Tamils were LTTE.
% of LTTE cadres being Tamil = 99% (my guess)
Assuming LTTE had 30,000 including the dead and Tamil population to be 70,000,000,
% of Tamils who were LTTE = 0.038%
In other words 99.963% of Tamils were not LTTE.
However, we must appreciate the fact that removing these monuments will be seen as a very bad act by Tamils around the world. There is no point denying it.
It hurts them.
This is the UGLY truth. But it got to be done.
There is a danger. People will fall out with the army further, the government and the nation. It is inevitable.
This is not the only thing that will push Tamil people away from the army, govt and the nation. Many many things.
The real problem is “ALL the people of a certain territory” of the country falling out with the army, government and the nation.
The only way to mitigate this is by having a sizable population of people (settled in the north) who would not be so hurt by this act. (Some may even like it.) That way northern support will still be there for the army, government and the nation despite Tamils falling out.
This is the solution to the ethnic problem.
The problem now is if Tamils disaprove something, the entire northern province disaproving it. It need not be so.
Some are in a dilema. They want to support military presence in the north and at the same time retain Tamil support as well. It will NOT happen. Can’t they understand? So we have to look for a solution for the northern province that goes BEYOND Tamil.
So what you’re saying, TT, is that if you don’t agree with your parents, they should bring in your cousins and allow them to stay in your home so that your opinion won’t matter anymore since your cousins will now agree with your father?
DB,
Replace cousins with brothers and sisters. Then it comes closer (not quite though) to what I say. My brother was all by himself for a LONG TIME. Being the only child, parents had to do what he demanded. He used to cry for everything knowing that he would get it if he does. Everything changed when I arrived.
Very good, TT, you’re finally sipping the water. So shouldn’t your brothers and sisters have the same rights as you, just as you were afforded the same rights as your older and bigger brother, in spite of the fact that you arrived later?
DB,
Equal individual rights.
But they used to vote out most of my suggestions. It is called democracy. I reluctantly comply.
e.g. about holiday destinations, move house or not, lab or boxer
It’s not possible they go to Rome and I go to Jerusalem! Or they move to X and I move to Y. Or they have a boxer and I have a lab. That won’t work. I HAD TO COMPLY and I DID. Why can’t SL’s POLITICAL minority?
TT, often people who are abused or bullied as children, in turn become abusers or bullies once they have that power. Looks like your childhood as a powerless runt of the litter has embittered you so that you feel that now that you’re on top of the heap, the Tamils should stay at the bottom.
Regardless of what you think, majoritarian rule isn’t considered democratic anymore. Here is what Wiki has to say: “Majoritarianism is a traditional political philosophy or agenda which asserts that a majority (sometimes categorized by religion, language, social class or some other identifying factor [not political ideology, as you claim, TT]) of the population is entitled to a certain degree of primacy in society, and has the right to make decisions that affect the society. This traditional view has come under growing criticism and democracies have increasingly included constraints in what the parliamentary majority can do, in order to protect citizens’ fundamental rights. This should not be confused with the concept of a majoritarian electoral system, which is a simple electoral system which usually gives a majority of seats to the party with a plurality of votes. A parliament elected by this method may be called a majoritarian parliament (e.g. the British parliament). Under a democratic majoritarian political structure, the majority would not exclude any minority from future participation in the democratic process. Majoritarianism is sometimes pejoratively referred to by its opponents as “ochlocracy” (literally, “mob rule”) or “tyranny of the majority”. Majoritarianism is often referred to as majority rule, but which may be referring to a majority class ruling over a minority class, while not referring to the decision process called majority rule.” TT, I suggest you read this article further, since you seem unaware of what the subject is [Edited out.]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majoritarianism
The President Rajapaksa should bear in mind the fact that these kind of projects – Sri Lanka builds army headquarters build on desecrated Tamil people graveyard – are not solutions to the problems Sri Lankan Tamils and other minorities in Sri Lanka are facing decades after decades.
Other goverments might change their policy towards the Rajapaksa Regime.
What happens today in Sri Lanka is NOT the collective wish of the greater Sinhalese community.
Powerless as they are in the face of military rule in Sri Lanka, the greater Sinhalese community is also the victim to the desecration the Sinhalese military has unleashed on their brethren community the Tamils.
A graveyard is the place of abode of souls of the dead. There has to be peace and eerie silence as the way of worship in our culture. Desecration of Tamil people graveyard means nothing other than cultural decay of the Sinhalese race. Those who derive pleasure from desecrating the cultural identities will dig their own graveyard soon.
Whichever way this is explained away, there’s something creepy about building a new Army HQ on an ex-LTTE gravesite. I’ve got no problem with LTTE statues being demolished, but this desecration of graves is really bad and only provides more ammunition (pardon the pun) to the LTTE theologians.
Quite apart from the PR damage, it also suggests very bad karma will be reaped by those inhabiting the HQ. This is like a Sri Lankan version of ‘Poltergeist’, where a crooked property developer built houses on an old Red Indian burial ground with unforeseen consequences for the incoming homeowners.
Mango,
No bodies are burried here.
Please read Dr Muttukrishna Sarvananthan’s account below.
To be right by spirituality, I would like to see someone conducting religious acts to honour the dead. Actually religious acts were carried out at the opening ceremony! So bad karma effects would not happen to the occupiers but good karma will happen to them.
TT
You are mistaken !!
There were 2000 dead bodies buried in the desecrated graveyard in Koppai, Sri Lanka
M K Shivajilingam mentioned this number in the BBC interview
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12668613
The numerous tomb stones with dead Tamils’ people names on each grave .
These graves were bulldozed by Sri Lanka Army and Military Headquaters put in its place
TT,
I understand about the lack of bodies etc., but it’s the intention behind the location I question. It makes an unequivocal symbolic statement. Just like the intention behind how VP and his merry band were wiped out at the end. It was a strong statement to the effect “please don’t try this sort of armed insurrection ever again.”
Sivan,
That is just hearsay. It is not evidence. Hindus don’t bury, they cremate! These are monuments for dead LTTE cadres.
Mango,
Yes, you got a point there.
It has 3 sides.
1. “Don’t even think about a repetition.”
2. “No glorifying terrorism, terrorists, suicide bombers, child soldiers, assassins, those who engage human shields”
3. “Here is ganesh hotel after 16 years later. Take it and do well.”
In my view all are good things. #1 is about deterrence in defence. It is the most potent way to win/avoid a war without fighting it. It saves lives, property and policy. If counter insurgency strategy is used, it is an essential part of it.
The desecration of Tamil graveyards will not erase all traces of Sri Lanka Army mass murder
The souls of the innocent Tamil children massacred by Sri Lanka Army were buried in the Tamil graveyards
Childen are the joy of our life and they fill up the empty moments of life with their innocence.
These tortured souls of the innocent Tamil babies are still waiting for justice in Sri Lanka
The innocent War Victims are waiting ..
@Parvathi: “innocent Tamil babies” etc.. Damn shame that no-one thought to mention that to the LTTE when they were recruiting innocent Tamil children to act as cannon fodder, no?
There are no innocent parties in the Eelam Wars, only less guilty ones.
Mr. Mango
How can you called 6 months old infants ” no innocent parties in the Tamil Wars, only less guilty ones “?
Your hate for Tamils is clouding your judgment ?
I saw many horrific images of tiny Tamil tots blown to bits by the indiscriminate Sri Lanka Army shelling ..
I saw many Tamil babies dying in their mothers arms !!
How those few months old infants could be ” less guilty ones ” ?
Really, Parvathi? There were six-month-old babies buried in a cemetery for Tiger troops?
I guess the Tigers must have drastically dropped their recruitment age!
@Parvathi,
Apologies – by ‘less guilty parties’ I meant both the GoSL & LTTE. The former is the lesser of two evils. Of course I mourn the innocent babies and children murdered and killed irrespective of their so-called ethnicity. They are wholly innocent.
Mango
Apologies accepted
The title itself (“The Desecration of graves in Jaffna…….”) is a misnomer because there were no graves in the Kopay Maveerar Thuyilum Illam. In fact, this is NOT the first time Sri Lanka Army has established a military camp on a Maveerar Thuyilum Illam. The army built its Delta Base on the Maveerar Thuyilum Illam in Kodikamam in mid-2010.
First of all, both the Kodikamam and Kopay Maveerar Thuyilum Illams were constructed (literally) by the LTTE during the ceasefire time (2003) on state lands without formal approval by the concerned local authorities (Divisional Secretariats). According to the laws of any country, cemeteries cannot be established without prior permission from local authorities concerned. Therefore, the Maveerar Thuyilum Illams of Kodikamam (Thenmarachchi Divisional Secretariat area) and Kopay (Valikamam East Divisional Secretariat area) are illegal in the first place. More importantly, there were no graves in these two Maveerar Thuyilum Illams because no one was buried (or even cremated) in these places. In fact, these two Maveerar Thuyilum Illams were NOT really cemeteries, but monuments for propaganda purposes. In fact, almost all the Maveerar Thuyilum Illams are monuments for dead LTTE cadres and NOT cemeteries.
Hence, there is no legal or (civilised) cultural justification for the existence of these cemeteries or so-called Maveerar Thuyilum Illams. Therefore, I cannot find any reason to blame the Army of immoral or unethical behaviour of “desecration of graves” as Groundviews claims. (Dr.Michael Roberts’ views notwithstanding) Of course, the Sri Lanka Army and the Government is doing lot of wrongs in Jaffna and elsewhere in the North and East (which I also have highlighted in many forums), but that is not the bone of contention here.
I would also like to remind Groundviews, its contributors and readers (including Dr. Michael Roberts) about a despicable act of the LTTE in Batticaloa in the aftermath of the breakaway of Karuna Amman and his followers within the LTTE in the East. Mr. Rajan Sathiyamoorthy (a loyalist of Karuna Amman and father of the present Mayor of Batticaloa) was murdered by the LTTE (loyalists of Pirapakaran) in April 2004 few days before the parliamentary elections in which he was a candidate of the Tamil National Alliance. (remember that the nominations for the election was filed before the breakaway of Karuna Amman and followers from the LTTE) Mr. Rajan Sathiyamoorhy was buried in the Maveerar Thuyilum Illam in Batticaloa (I cannot remember which one) by his family and supporters (including pro-Karuna Amman LTTE cadres). On the very next day pro-Pirapakaran LTTE cadres dug out the body of Mr. Rajan Sathiyamoorthy from the Maveerar Thuyilum Illam and burnt it on the adjoining road.
NOT A SINGLE TAMIL MEDIA (electronic or print or national or regional including the state-owned Tamil newspaper Thinakaran) condemned this dastardly act. (Including the “well-known blogger Guruparan” who I believe was a law student at the Colombo University at that time or about to be one) Of course, I am not justifying the Sinhala or English media. The point I am trying to make is that the Tamil media (and Groundviews as well) should do some soul-searching and get the facts correct before crying foul.
@ Dr. Sarvananthan:
Sir, i’m quite frankly very disappointed with your response. Your argument as to whether the LTTE had permission to construct a cemetery on State land is rather pedantic. I mean it’s not like they were really filling out forms and submitting police reports for controlling swathes of land in the North and East. I’m reminded here of the play Antigone by Sophocles which deals with a rather similar issue. Let us not make the same mistake as Creon so tragically did by blindly following the letter of the law.
Secondly i don’t think anyone (I am certainly not) is under any illusions that the LTTE was some sort of darling little angel. They were pretty messed up and did some pretty messed up things one of which you have quite rightly pointed out. But isn’t it time to move beyond this kind of comparisons… just because the LTTE did this kind of thing doesn’t make this right. The LTTE was wrong and the Army is wrong… let’s not get side tracked.
Finally i think the point the “well-known blogger Guruparan” and groundviews is making is largely to do with the kind of message an act like this sends out to a country hoping for reconciliation. Let’s not make this about whether raising this issue is supporting the LTTE or not. I think we need to take a step back and think about the image of a sprawling army base on top a former rebel cemetery. And then let’s look at the kind of message it sends out and what other acts then become permissible because of this in this post-war context. Even the “great” Dutugemunu (who must be quite tired now after the many invocations during the war) decreed that the “foreigner” Elara was to be given a proper burial and the area was considered from then on a sacred place. Are we even close to that kind of a gesture?
NM, I think you missed Dr Sarvananthan’s point that there were no Tiger bodies in the cemetery.
@ David Blacker,
If someone tore down one of the many bus stands dedicated to a fallen soldier without bothering to ask the family, just to put up a shop there would that be ok? I mean no one’s buried there so it doesn’t really matter does it…
It’s not about whether there were bodies there or not…
NM, it would matter to the people who admire and revere the dead soldier. It would offend those who respect the SL Army. Howevger, it would not be the desecration of a grave as this article, and you, suggest.
No David & Muttukrishna, it’s not a valid point that there were no bodies in the cemetery. This cemetery/monument/Maveerar Thuyilum Illams, call it what you may, was a place where families & friends of cadres could go and pay their respect to their loved ones, cry, light a candle at, visit whenever they wanted to. It was a memorial to the lives lost fighting for a “cause,” a segment of people belonging to OUR country believed/continue to believe in. Our views on this “cause”, and opinions on the LTTE are immaterial.
Again, it’s of little consequence what “dastardly” acts have been committed by the LTTE, because this is not a game of tit for tat. This is real life. Real human beings in question. A State shouldn’t be an agent of retribution, but rather, one of good example.
It’s a BASIC respect for the dead that has not been valued here. If the State shows no respect for the dead, what hope can the living have???
No David & Muttukrishna, it’s not a valid point that there were no bodies in the cemetery. This cemetery/monument/Maveerar Thuyilum Illams, call it what you may, was a place where families & friends of cadres could go and pay their respect to their loved ones, cry, light a candle at, visit whenever they wanted to.”
And what would they have done if the bodies of the Tigers had been cremated in Hindu tradition and the ashes scattered instead of used to create a memorial to the terrorist structure that visited so much death and sorrow on this country? Where would they have gone to cry and light candles then?
“It was a memorial to the lives lost fighting for a “cause,” a segment of people belonging to OUR country believed/continue to believe in. Our views on this “cause”, and opinions on the LTTE are immaterial.”
The LTTE dream of a totalitarian mono-ethnic state isn’t a cause that anyone should have believed in, and they certainly shouldn’t believe in it now. In the 1930s and 1940s many Germans believed in their racial superiority and in the inferiority of the Jews and other untermenschen, and many continued to believe in it even after the Nazis were defeated. Nevertheless, the Allies didn’t respect this belief nor allow any memorials to Nazism to exist anywhere in Germany.
The Tamil cause of equality is certainly an admirable cause and should be supported wherever possible, but it is not the same cause as that of the Tigers.
I’m not condoning the act of destroying these memorial cemeteries, but neither do I see it as a desecration or any such “dastardly” act.
“It’s a BASIC respect for the dead that has not been valued here. If the State shows no respect for the dead, what hope can the living have???”
The disrespect the GoSL and the military has shown isn’t for the dead (since there aren’t any there) but for the LTTE itself, and frankly I see no reason to respect that memory. We should totally destroy their historical standing as was done to the Nazis in German society, so that as an entity they will never be respected or admired by future Tamil generations for anything but their fighting prowess.
Dear Dr Saravananda,
The debate here is not about legality but about the morality of the actions. Since you speak about lands I hope that you will also raise questions regarding lands on which the SLA has built its war monuments in Vanni.
You may be right about the nature of the Mahaveerar Thuyilum Illanagal in Kopay (about them not being actual cemeteries). There was a Thuyillum Illam there before it was destroyed by the SLA when it took over the Jaffna Peninsula in 1995. The Thuyilum illam near Chaatty beach, Velanai was similarly razed to the ground. I suspect the same happened to the ones in Killinochchi, Visuvamadu, Mulangavil etc. These other Thuyilum Illams if I am not mistaken had bodies in them. The point is not even whether they had bodies in them or not. They were sites where the loved ones of the dead mourned. There might have been a propaganda purpose behind erecting the Mahaveerar Thuyilum Illams, but that obviously does not justify bringing down monuments for the dead. Unless you agree with David Blacker’s response to Marisa. (@DB. Yes Hindus do cremate. But that the LTTE chose to ‘bury’ them and there were sites for memory – does it mean that you can’t and should not mourn at these places? What kind of an argument is that? Is there just one way in which the Tamil Hindus should mourn? If your point is empirical that no one mourned at these sites – please pay a visit to Jaffna or the Vanni and talk to some of the people. Of course you will come back and say all of them were brainwashed.)
The larger point that is being raised is whether this is not a symbol of occupation? Of embedding militarisation firmly in the North and East in a post war context? In fact, quite unfortunately in an interview you gave in November 2010 you have been quite supportive of high level military presence in the North:
“Any hasty withdrawal of the army in the North would lead to mafias such as pro-government militias and common criminals taking over the reins of power, which is very dangerous to the future of the local communities. During the run up to the Presidential and Parliamentary elections early this year the army cut back its visible presence on the streets of Jaffna peninsula; the results have been rise in burglaries, chain snatching along the streets, and kidnapping for ransom by pro-government militias and common criminals”. http://transcurrents.com/tc/2010/11/sri_lanka_after_the_civil_war.html
What the LTTE did in the particular incident that you describe is obviously wrong. What is the point of raising it here? Are you implying, with your prescription that GV and the ‘well known blogger’ Guruparan need to do some soul searching, that they selectively report about these things? Why would they selectively report? Because they are pro LTTE? Is that the point? Why beat around the bush?
I don’t think you can judge whether GV has stood for balanced reporting by pointing out a particular incident and asking them why they haven’t reported on it. Your comment shows why it is difficult to report on the ‘other’ side of the story and not be labelled as being pro-LTTE. (assuming that this was what you were hinting at by soul searching).
Guruparan is surprised by your reference to him in your comment. Why this special reference? He denies that he is a well known blogger. He has been horribly infrequent. I am surprised that you know so much about Guruparan – when he commenced his studies at the Colombo Law Faculty etc. Why so? (and FYI he was doing his A/Levels in Jaffna in April 2004. He started blogging in October 2005. But that’s beyond the point)
Muttukrishna Sarvananthan
You are wrong !!
On the Desecrated Graveyard …. 2,000 dead bodies were buried !!
M K Shivajilingam said it in the BBC interview
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12668613
That is just hearsay. It is not evidence. Hindus don’t bury, they cremate!
Do Tamils in the north want ganesh hotel (future and economic prosperity) or LTTE monuments (past and destruction)?
Certainly not both. I know the Tamil Diaspora want the latter.
Remember the pictures of the carts (attached to tractors) loaded with dead bodies of LTTE cadres – in a state of total undress – being slowly paraded through Anuradhapura town by the SLA, after the attack on the airforce base there? Why was the dead body of Prabhakaran rolled around in the mud and then photographed, again in a state of undress? On one forum called “DefenseWire”, I read that Gen. Jagath Jayasuriya shoved a hot poker in a certain anatomical region of Prabhakaran, while the latter was alive. So, it seems that the Sri Lankan Army has some kind of obsession with sadism. Destroying cemeteries is only the tip of the iceberg. I pity the people in the North and East who have to put up with the Army on a daily basis.
Dear Heshan;
Such things are a inbuilt part of a war, though I don’t approve such behaviour.I think such things happened even in “Trojan War”. Hector’s body was tied to the cart of the Achilles’and dragged along the roads of the city. During the JVP insurgence same thing happened to Sinhalese youth.
I think one should think twice before inviting for war. War is not Cricket World Cup.
Thanks!
Sri Lanka is not a bad place but Rajapaksa makes it so.
He is selling Sri Lanka piece by piece… to Devil.
Why desecrate the cemeteries?
What kind of pleasure anyone can derive from this?
MS,
I take it you have compiled a list of which sites have dead bodies or ashes and which don’t? Would you mind sharing the list with me?
I am also curious to know how you determine if a site has remains present?
Thank you for doing this valuable field work.
Heshan,
Your concern about SLA sadism is touching.
During the Eastern campaign (2006-7), Sgt Pathirana (on a recon mission) was captured by the LTTE, his limbs chopped off, then beheaded and later his head exhibited at the Illuppadichenai junction. Now, they’ve named a road after him.
The atrocity exhibition game really isn’t worth playing.
Mango,
Torturing a live person is one thing. But abusing dead bodies is a different story. The LTTE did not have any morbid fascination with dead bodies. I cannot say the same thing for the SLA.
By the way, did you know that in certain Arabic countries, it is still common policy to behead criminals in public, as well as chop off limbs? Example: Saudi Arabia.
“Torturing a live person is one thing. But abusing dead bodies is a different story.”
Oh, the difference is quite clear, Prof Heshan. It is also pretty clear to us which is worse. Do you also possess this clarity?
“By the way, did you know that in certain Arabic countries, it is still common policy to behead criminals in public, as well as chop off limbs? Example: Saudi Arabia.”
Surely you’re not suggesting that Arabs are as bad as the Tigers?
@ Heshan,
The LTTE were intensely fascinated by death, dead bodies et al. You must have missed out on the LTTE-instigated beheadings, lamppost executions, chopping, slicing, dicing, disemboweling, beatings etc – all done to ‘cleanse’ their area of ‘traitors’ and ‘criminals’ and to scare away border area villagers. All of it on public display to ensure that everyone knew the penalties for disobedience. There are plenty of pix the LTTE’s ‘morbid fascination’ on the net.
The SLA of course had their moment in the 2nd JVP campaign. Tyre Pyres.
1.All LTTE memorials should be erased.There must not be sacred places to extremists and pro-LTTE parties worship wiped out LTTE terrorist organization and its ideology.Remember, after the WWII the bunker which Hitler used as his last strong hold and in which he and Eva Braun commited suicide,destroyed in order to avoid it being a neo-nazi shrine.Any mark of LTTE should be wiped away from our soil since there was no so despicable organization in lanka history than LTTE and being its ideology most poisonous to Sri Lanka and Sri Lankan civil society.
2.Reconciliation is with common tamil civil society and as a whole North and East people(including all minorities). not with tamil extremist or defeated and wiped out LTTE terrorists.
3.Sri Lankan media is correct not publishing or broadcasting the destroying of LTTE graveyard or rather memorial since it must not give any push or opportunity to Pro LTTE to advertise their false claims.
4.This a problem about ethics not about reconciliation since tamil peoples heroes is Defence forces who protected them from grip of terrorist not LTTE who use them as cannon fodder.So erasing memoriarls of tigers should do no harm to them or pain to their war torn memories.If it will be painful it should be only to tamil extremist or traitors who can be bought to dollars.If their is any bodies in site it will not be morally correct to destroy it,but being most of LTTE being Hindus why they buried dead instead of cremating.So these may be tiger memorials not graveyards.If so it should be destroyed.
5.Now Pro- LTTE try to use these little incidents as advertising campaign since their is no more racial discrimination in Sri Lanka that can be used by opportunities.
Agree.
After another hundred years these will assume historical significance.
It is certainly not illegal to tear these down. So it must be done fully.
Registering people in the north was judged illegal by the supreme court which means legal recourse is there against illegal acts. If it is not illegal, it is legal.
What’s the morality in glorifying terrorists, suicide bombers, child soldiers, assasins! This is a joke.
@ Chathuranga,
Hitler? What era is this?
Today we have oppressive regimes that can wipe out a people all under the guise of fighting terrorism and get away with it too if they have the back-up of powers.
A land like no other! Even the dead can’t rest in peace.
“Only the dead have seen Tamil Elam.”
“Tamil people only inherited cemeteries from the LTTE.”
Desecrating graveyards will not improve the image of Sri Lanka.
Imprisoning the 300 000 innocent women and children in the concentrations camps will not improve the image of the Sri Lanka but will tarnish the Sri Lanka reputation for many years to come.
These kinds of policies of Rajapakse simply do not work. There are cannot be continuous carnivals and celebrations to mask the wholesale slaughter of 40 000 defenseless Sri Lanka citizens and divert attention from this inhumane War Crimes.
And let’s us not forget these Rajapaksa’s carnivals and celebrations are very expensive
With rapidly rising food prices and other cost of living expenses, Sri Lanka could not afford the these carnivals and celebrations
We just cannot afford a cabinet of 100 ministers.
We cannot afford an army of 200,000 plus.
We cannot afford to have Rajapaksa’s goons idling and drawing fat salaries and perks.
Sri Lanka is not an oil rich country or endowed with limitless wealth and resources.
There is no free lunch.
Government is wasting a lot of money. People are without the peace dividend.
Peace dividend is the 15,000 sq kms and 500 km coastline won by the SLA. It must benefit people of all races; especially those who sacrificed for the victory. If these resources are used properly, some of the problems can be resolved. Not otherwise.
Used “properly” by colonising the NE with Sinhalese, TT?
DB,
Yes! And with Muslims and upcountry Tamils too.
But when the Gandhiyam Movement settled upcountry Tamils in the Vanni in ’83, the GoSL had the movement’s leader arrested and the settlements burned. The Sinhalese with the help of the Army also repeatedly drove out even Eastern Tamils who had been settled in the Gal Oya colonies. So how do these practices fit with your claim to want to settle more Tamils in the NE? This is one of the questions you ran away from earlier, TT.
And since, according to your own admittance, the primary reason for colonising the NE is to prevent Tamils voting for Tamil parties, how will moving more Tamils in change this?
Once you were unable to substantiate your claim that changing a that colonising an area with party loyalists wasn’t undemocratic, you clutched at the straws of saying that Sinhalese colonisation was beneficial to the country and not just the Sinhalese politicians. Yet when questioned on the specific benefits, you were unable to prove that the settlements were more productive than those in the south, that they had especially resisted the Tigers, that they had solved landlessness that couldn’t be solved in the south, or that they had fostered inter-communal integration and harmony, all of which you had claimed were the benefits.
In fact, you weren’t even able to prove that increasing the multi-ethnicity of the East had helped defeat the Tigers or prevent minority parties continuing to be elected in those areas
And yet, you still insist that colonisation is the way to go. Ha ha ha. Pathetic, TT.
DB,
You are introducing your words to it.
There is no need for violence in colonization.
“And since, according to your own admittance, the primary reason for colonising the NE is to prevent Tamils voting for Tamil parties, how will moving more Tamils in change this?”
What nonsense! Tamils from NE and Tamil Nadu cannot be prevented from voting for Tamil/Dravidian race based parties in the NE and in Tamil Nadu. That will not change, DB. Just look at all general elections.
It is about allowing them to vote for “T” or “D” race parties and having others who will vote for multiethnic parties. Upcountry Tamils have a different voting pattern especially when in multiethnic communities. Don’t forget there will be Sinhalese and Muslims as well. And of course SLDFs.
“In fact, you weren’t even able to prove that increasing the multi-ethnicity of the East had helped defeat the Tigers or prevent minority parties continuing to be elected in those areas.”
I have. Take a look at the election results in the entire east in 2010. Or the EPC in 2008. Multiethnic parties won defeating race based parties.
Multiethnic east was cleared before mono ethnic north; with less casualties too. LTTE had more bases near Tamil majority areas than Sinhala or Muslim majority areas. A clear indication of less LTTE bases in Sinhala/Muslim majority areas than Tamil majority areas. Defeating Tigers in Ampara was easier than in Batticaloa. Easier in Trincomalee than Batticaloa despite the large LTTE build up.
Holding on to these areas was also easier than other areas.
Even today there are MORE SLA camps and numbers in Tamil only areas than in multi ethnic areas.
e.g. Jaffna, Kilinochchi, Mulaitivu, Mannar, Batticaloa
This shows the need to use more force to win/retain peace in Tamil only areas than in melting pots.
SLA camps along threatened villages (some call them border villages) have reduced a lot. These areas are multiethnic.
Also take a look at the ferocity of battles in Tamil-only areas like Jaffna (to win and RETAIN. 40K SLA plus navy and EPDP), Kilinochchi, Mulaitivu (last stage of the war), Mannar, Batticaloa (SLA plus STF plus Karuna plus guns for Muslims). By any standard these battles were much more ferocious than battles in Trinco, Ampara, Vavuniya, Puttlam (part of the TE map but thanks to multiethnicity there was little LTTE could do) and Colombo.
SLA’s largest casualties in recorded battles came in Tamil only areas – Muliaitivu (1996), Elephant Pass – Jaffna/Kilinochchi (2000). Interestingly these 2 places also produced the bravest of SLA – Laffir and Kularatna which means the extraordinary effort needed to retain peace in these Tamil only areas.
According to Tamil sources, larges Tamil casualties came in Tamil only areas – Kilinochchi and Mulaitivu (some put it at 40,000 which is ridiculously high but that’s what they beleive.)
Air raids were also had to be mostly concentrated on hard core LTTE bases – almost ALL in Tamil only mono ethnic areas!!
“There is no need for violence in colonization.”
Then why has there always been violence in it?
“What nonsense! Tamils from NE and Tamil Nadu cannot be prevented from voting for Tamil/Dravidian race based parties in the NE and in Tamil Nadu.”
Exactly, which is why you wish to move in Sinhalese who will vote for Sinhalese parties in the NE. And I have shown you why this is considered undemocratic (with quotations from commentators). This is one of the 39 issues you fled from in that last thread
“That will not change, DB. Just look at all general elections.”
But I already showed you that Tamils in the NE have often voted for Sinhalese-majority alliances when they represented minority interests. In addition, the Tamils have often voted for Sinhalese presidential candidates. One of the 39 issues I put to you was to prove that colonisation in the East had managed to change such a trend. You were unable to and fled as usual
In fact, the evidence showed that one Tamil party won resoundingly in the multi-ethnic East, while another Tamil party lost pathetically, proving that multi-ethnicity hadn’t changed the perceived problem, which therefore questions the actual perception. The evidence showed that Tamils (and other minorities) voted for parties they felt represented them — sometimes those parties were Tamils, sometimes they were not. Either way, colonisation had no effect.
“It is about allowing them to vote for “T” or “D” race parties and having others who will vote for multiethnic parties.”
The others can vote for what you call multi-ethnic parties, which are simply Sinhalese-majority parties; but there is no need for them to move to the NE to do so. The only reason for Sinhalese parties to want to win in the NE is to prevent Tamil parties being elected to parliament where they can block racist policies
This is what makes it undemocratic, and a failure. Fortunately the GoSL isn’t following your rather bigoted advice.
“Upcountry Tamils have a different voting pattern especially when in multiethnic communities.”
What is this different pattern?
“Don’t forget there will be Sinhalese and Muslims as well.”
Of course, as minorities in the NE.
“And of course SLDFs.”
Service personnel don’t vote in the areas they are stationed
They vote by post in their hometowns.
“I have. Take a look at the election results in the entire east in 2010. Or the EPC in 2008. Multiethnic parties won defeating race based parties.”
Firstly, my challenge to you was to prove that the multi-ethnic nature of the East helped defeat the Tigers. What makes you think that the Tigers were campaigning for election in the 2008 PC elections or in the 2010 general elections? Lol. Second, in the PC elections the TMVP won; they just campaigned under the UPFA name, but all their candidates were TMVP members. In 2010, at the general elections, the TNA contested only in the five districts of the NE in which voting took place, namely those of Jaffna, Vavuniya, Batticaloa, Trinco, and Digamadulla/Amparai. In the first three they won, in Trinco the EPDP won, and in Digamadulla/Amparai the SLFP won. So there is no evidence that multi-ethnicity had any effect on your perception that Tamils only vote for Tamil parties, and in fact the evidence is that northerners and easterners (regardless of ethnicity) vote for whom they think best represents them, regardless of party ethnicity. We’ve been through all this before, TT. When you can make no headway you abandon the debate and run away. Here are those 39 issues again, numbers 14 and 23 deal with this issue. Perhaps you can answer them now?
1. Unable to answer whether you believe Tamils are immigrants in SL or not.
2. Unable to explain the difference between national and naturalised minorities.
3. Unable to explain the difference between a UN declaration and a resolution.
4. Unwilling to state which UN declarations outline minority rights.
5. Unable to explain the difference between a homeland and a country.
6. Unable to explain the obligations of being a signatory to a UN declaration.
7. Unable to explain the effect of the Civil Rights movement on majoritarianism.
8. Unwilling to state whether replacing Buddhism in the constitution would be fair.
9. Unable to name any countries that haven’t given national minorities their language rights even though you claim they exist.
10. Unable to explain what nationalism is.
11. Unable to explain why Tamils must not have equal rights.
12. Unable to explain the difference between racism and defending equality.
13. Unable to quote any current Tamil leader as calling for separation, even though you claim they do.
14. Unable to show how colonised territories were beneficial even though you claim they are.
15. Unable to prove that all colonies resisted Tiger aggression even though you claim they did.
16. Unable to show any sign of Tamil inclination to separation before 1956.
17. Unable to show any evidence of Sinhalese being systematically driven out of the NE.
18. Unable to show any evidence that colonisation fostered integration.
19. Unwilling to acknowledge the distinction between natural immigration and internal colonisation.
20. Unable to explain why the GoSL was unable to take and hold the East until 2008.
21. Unable to explain the pathetic voter turnout in the North in 2010.
22. Unable to prove that Tamils in the North vote only for Tamil parties.
23. Unable to explain why the UPFA fielded a TMVP side in the last PC elections, even though you claim the East is multi-ethnic and that the GoSL believes in multi-ethnicity.
24. Unable to quote any portion of the Sinhala Only Act that allows for use of Tamil.
25. Unable to substantiate your claim that 68% of SL voted for Sinhala Only.
26. Unable to substantiate your claim that most Muslims voted for Sinhala Only.
27. Unable to explain how repealing the 13th Amendment will solve problems of hunger, poverty and unemployment.
28. Unable to substantiate your claim that ALL of SL is affected by the above problems.
29. Unable to explain why above problems haven’t been tackled for over sixty years.
30. Unable to prove a lack of land resources in southern and north-central SL.
31. Unable to prove that the North has more water resources than the east, south, or north-central areas of SL.
32. Unable to name the untapped resources you claim exist in the NE that don’t exist in the south.
33. Unwilling to acknowledge the role ethnicity plays in majoritarianism within a multi-ethnic society.
34. Unable to prove how Sinhala Only saved millions of lives as you claim.
35. Unable to show constitutional reasons for reform of local laws.
36. Unwilling to acknowledge Tamils as human beings.
37. Unable to justify why local laws must be changed when national laws remain unimplemented.
38. Unable to prove how Thesawalamai Law violates individual rights.
39. Unwilling to acknowledge the existence of collective rights for minorities.
“Multiethnic east was cleared before mono ethnic north; with less casualties too.”
But it has already been pointed out to you that the reason the East was cleared rapidly was because it was the heartland of the Tamil Karuna/TMVP group, not because it was multi-ethnic, and because the Tigers preferred to lose ground rather than troops, playing for time. You had no counter-argument to this, and I assume you still don’t
Are you going to run away again like the Tigers?
“LTTE had more bases near Tamil majority areas than Sinhala or Muslim majority areas. A clear indication of less LTTE bases in Sinhala/Muslim majority areas than Tamil majority areas.”
Then how do you explain the fact that the Tigers were never able to capture or hold Tamil majority Batticaloa the way they did Jaffna?
“Defeating Tigers in Ampara was easier than in Batticaloa.”
But there hasn’t been any serious fighting in either Batticaloa or Amparai since 1991; so how do you come by this conclusion?
“Easier in Trincomalee than Batticaloa despite the large LTTE build up.”
As with Batticaloa and Amparai, there hasn’t been any serious fighting around Trinco in over 15 years; so how do you arrive at this conclusion?
“Holding on to these areas was also easier than other areas.”
But both Batti and Trinco were always under GoSL control since 1990, and the road and rail links were always open. In contrast, large areas of the northern Amparai district and western Batticaloa district were under Tiger control for almost ten years. How was this possible if multi-ethnic areas were easier to hold than Tamil areas?
“This shows the need to use more force to win/retain peace in Tamil only areas than in melting pots.”
But there are no melting pots in the NE. As was pointed out to you, the East is only multi-ethnic from an overall political viewpoint; the actual physical areas within the province are still Tamil-only, Muslim-only, or Sinhalese-only. The only real multi-ethnic areas are the cities such as Batti or Trinco, the villages are exclusively single-community. This point too you abandoned rather than contest.
“SLA camps along threatened villages (some call them border villages) have reduced a lot. These areas are multiethnic.”
No, they are Sinhalese. There are no border villages where Sinhalese and Tamils are living together.
“Also take a look at the ferocity of battles in Tamil-only areas like Jaffna (to win and RETAIN. 40K SLA plus navy and EPDP), Kilinochchi, Mulaitivu (last stage of the war), Mannar, Batticaloa (SLA plus STF plus Karuna plus guns for Muslims). By any standard these battles were much more ferocious than battles in Trinco, Ampara, Vavuniya, Puttlam (part of the TE map but thanks to multiethnicity there was little LTTE could do) and Colombo.”
That is because the Tigers chose to defend those areas much more fiercely than they did in the East. As for Colombo, its multi-ethnicity didn’t prevent the city facing far more terrorist attacks than anywhere else in the south. Why do you think that is?
“SLA’s largest casualties in recorded battles came in Tamil only areas – Muliaitivu (1996), Elephant Pass – Jaffna/Kilinochchi (2000). Interestingly these 2 places also produced the bravest of SLA – Laffir and Kularatna which means the extraordinary effort needed to retain peace in these Tamil only areas.”
That is because the Vanni and areas south of the Jaffna peninsula are the least densely populated of the NE, and allowed for larger scale battles than in the western Jaffna Peninsula and the East. But prior to the last phase of the war, most of the civilian casualties and atrocities by both sides (such as Kokkadicholai and the Karuna massacre of 600 policemen) came in the East which is multi-ethnic. How do you explain this?
“According to Tamil sources, larges Tamil casualties came in Tamil only areas – Kilinochchi and Mulaitivu (some put it at 40,000 which is ridiculously high but that’s what they beleive.)”
But that’s only in the last phase of the war when the entire Tamil population of the Vanni had been forced into a small area of the theatre. Prior to that there were no such civilian casualties in the Vanni.
“Air raids were also had to be mostly concentrated on hard core LTTE bases – almost ALL in Tamil only mono ethnic areas!!”
Perhaps that’s because the MoD wanted to avoid killing other ethnic groups, which would certainly have happened if Tiger bases in the East were bombed.
DB,
There is no need for violence in colonization schemes.
“Service personnel don’t vote in the areas they are stationed. They vote by post in their hometowns.”
That is my point BD.
Can’t they have new alternative hometowns? Sure they can!
I’ve answered that list. Just because you don’t agree with my answers doesn’t me I haven’t answered them.
My solution to the so called ethnic problem is colonization of the NE by people of all races. FYI it is happening at a slow pace. I want it speed up and MORE state sponsored.
If you disagree with me, fine, we should agree to disagree. But that does not mean it will not happen.
“There is no need for violence in colonization schemes.”
There has never been any need for violence against the Tamils, and yet there was much violence against them between 1948 and 1983.
“That is my point BD.
Can’t they have new alternative hometowns? Sure they can!”
but why? Are they unhappy in their hometowns?
“I’ve answered that list. Just because you don’t agree with my answers doesn’t me I haven’t answered them.”
Then why is that you can’t quote any of the answers you say you’ve given?
“My solution to the so called ethnic problem is colonization of the NE by people of all races.”
But you’re unable to show any evidence that colonisation has solved any ethnic problems
In contrast, it has aggravated it.
“FYI it is happening at a slow pace. I want it speed up and MORE state sponsored.”
Really? Can you show any evidence of current colonisation?
“If you disagree with me, fine, we should agree to disagree. But that does not mean it will not happen.”
Oh we can disagree on an opinion, because that is subjective. But whether something exists or not, or happened or not, is not an opinion; it is a fact; and facts require evidence. You are unable to provide any
That is why when the Maubimey Pomeranian said that The Old Man and the Sea wasn’t written by Ernest Hemingway, it wasn’t an opinion, it was ignorance of reality, and reality can be proven. With evidence. Do you have any?
DB,
The funniest thing is you have added my answers to your questions and posted in a previous article!
(And you boldfaced them too. Thanks DB.
) And now you claim I haven’t answered them.
I have explained the beauty of colonization here. Please read above.
I have presented FACTS, not just opinions to justify my case for mass state sponsored military backed colonization of the north as a solution to the problem. If you beleive Tamilnet.com it is already happening albeit at snail pace. It is not my opinion, it is a fact. You may shut yourself to facts.
Your ignorance to facts is hilarious. There is another live example of your ignorance of facts apart from the fact that colonization did good to SL.
You are unable to accept the FACT that building a military establishment on a LTTE (or Tamil or people’s) monuments or graveyards or memorials OR not maintaining a LTTE cemeteries as some Tamils claim it hurt Tamil people beyond “reconciliation as defined by Tamils”.
This is, once again, a fact DB. Accept it. Find solutions AFTER accepting it.
My solution takes into account these facts and it works! You have to look into the ENTIRE probelm of the nation with 20 million people; not just 18% of the people and 2 provinces of the country. Have you heard the story of the technologically advanced mouse trap DB?
Here it goes. Once upon a time there was a scientist. He invented the most technologically advanced mouse trap the world has seen (by then). He studied mice, rat, rodent, etc. behaviour for decades. It can attract mice, rats, rodents using soundwaves, food smells, pheromones, rat mating noises, etc. and kill them. You have to clean it and place it again. But it was a flop in the market. For it to be a success, he should have studied not mice but CONSUMERS!!
No direct comparison, but it is the same situation in SL. (Now don’t jump into the STUPID conclusion that I call such and such persons, rats!) The solution must focus on SL as a nation and ALL its people, not just a few and part of the country.
Your petty solutions are aimed at only appeasing a small percentage of SLs (and some outsiders! We need NOT appease outsiders at all.) disregading the nation and its people. But even that fails!! You cannot even appease them enough!! Read comments here. Disaster upon disaster.
My solution fixes the problem in its entirety. It is consistent with the military strategy, territorial integrity, soveriegnty, economic development, sustainable development, human rigths, fundamental equal individual rights, beneficial geopolitics and even elections.
“The funniest thing is you have added my answers to your questions and posted in a previous article!
(And you boldfaced them too. Thanks DB. 
) And now you claim I haven’t answered them.”,/em>
I claimed that you were unable or unwilling to answer the 15 questions put to you. You attempted to respond to them, that’s true, and I pointed that out too. However, 14 of the responses didn’t address the questions, and the 15th one was wrong! I highlighted your responses so that everyone could see your pathetic attempt
I’m glad you find that amusing; the ability to laugh at oneself is always commendable; however, the ability to actually address a question put to one would be even more commendable.
“I have explained the beauty of colonization here. Please read above.”
But I have challenged your explanation for its lack of any evidence (factual, statistical, etc) and you were unable to substantiate it by providing said evidence.
“I have presented FACTS, not just opinions to justify my case for mass state sponsored military backed colonization of the north as a solution to the problem.”
Really? Can you link to any such presented “facts” in response to the 39 issues still unresolved?
“If you beleive Tamilnet.com it is already happening albeit at snail pace. It is not my opinion, it is a fact. You may shut yourself to facts.”
So your “evidence” is Tamilnet???
“Your ignorance to facts is hilarious.”
But you’re unable to link to any such facts or to any previous response from you that included these mythical facts.
“There is another live example of your ignorance of facts apart from the fact that colonization did good to SL. You are unable to accept the FACT that building a military establishment on a LTTE (or Tamil or people’s) monuments or graveyards or memorials OR not maintaining a LTTE cemeteries as some Tamils claim it hurt Tamil people beyond “reconciliation as defined by Tamils”.”
Really? Where have I denied that this act hurt Tamil people?
“This is, once again, a fact DB. Accept it. Find solutions AFTER accepting it.”
Rather than accept it, I had in fact suggested it last year when the topic first came up on Transcurrents. Once more, I ask you where I refused to accept this.
“My solution takes into account these facts and it works! You have to look into the ENTIRE probelm of the nation with 20 million people; not just 18% of the people and 2 provinces of the country.”
But you have categorically stated that what the Tamils want doesn’t matter, and that the GoSL shouldn’t attempt to solve Tamil issues. How is this looking into the problems of the entire nation, and not just the majority Sinhalese?
“Have you heard the story of the technologically advanced mouse trap DB?
No direct comparison, but it is the same situation in SL.”
If there is no direct comparison, why are you using the example? Is this similar to your responding to questions but not answering them (ususlly known as kohedha yanne, malle pol), and then feeling pleased about it?
“(Now don’t jump into the STUPID conclusion that I call such and such persons, rats!) The solution must focus on SL as a nation and ALL its people, not just a few and part of the country.”
But as I pointed out, your solution ignores the few and focuses only on the many. The many are not all, TT. All means everybody.
“Your petty solutions are aimed at only appeasing a small percentage of SLs (and some outsiders! We need NOT appease outsiders at all.) disregading the nation and its people. But even that fails!! You cannot even appease them enough!! Read comments here. Disaster upon disaster.”
Shouldn’t a solution focus on those that have the problem rather than those that haven’t? And since my solution doesn’t create new problems for others, how is it not a solution? in contrast the Sinhala Only Act which solved one problem (that of Sinhalese inaccessibility to higher government jobs) transferred the problem to the minorities who then had a new problem. Repealing the 13th will do the same.
“My solution fixes the problem in its entirety. It is consistent with the military strategy”
Which military strategy? Military strategy cannot dictate how a nation is governed in peacetime; rather governing policies must be adhered to by the military. And when I questioned you on your analysis of the military strategy in the East, you were unable to substantiate it. That is one of the 39 issues still unanswered.
“territorial integrity, soveriegnty,”
There is no longer any threat to SL’s territorial integrity, nor to its sovereignty. In contrast, your colonisation plan in fact awards an area as being non-Sri Lankan and in need of being “Sri Lankanised” by colonisation; thus actually casting doubt on both SL’s territorial integrity and its sovereignty over the whole island.
“economic development, sustainable development,”
But when I challenged your suggestion that colonisation aided economic development and that it was necessary for sustainability, and asked you for statistical evidence of both, you were unable to prove it, saying that statistics were unnecessary and that all one needed to do was look at a paddy field to be convinced. This is one of the 39 issues you’ve been unable to answer.
“human rigths, fundamental equal individual rights”
But colonisation interferes not with the above rights, but with collective rights. When I challenged you on this, you were unable to substantiate your theory, nor even acknowledge the existence of collective rights; in spite of the fact that you spoke about majoritarianism, itself a collective act. This too is one of the 39 issues you’ve left unanswered.
“beneficial geopolitics”
But when I asked you to indicate which geopolitical issues were relevant to the Tamil issue, you were unable to.
“and even elections.”
But even if it were democratic to manipulate elections by demographic change (which it is not, as I showed you), you’re unable to show that demographic change has ever affected voting patterns in your testbed, the East. Instead, I was able to show you that it was policies that were voted for, and not ethnicity. This too was one of the 39 issues you ran away from.
So you see, TT, unless you can definitively address these issues and resolve them with actual evidence, your colonisation plan just falls apart.
On the desecration of the graveyards William Shakespeare said
“Good friend, for Jesus’ sake forbear,
To dig the dust enclosed here:
Blessed be the man that spares these stones,
And cursed be he that moves my bones.”
(William Shakespeare)
Shakespeare’s grave is in the Holy Trinity Church in Stratford and has remained, as his wishes, untouched.
———————————-
Rajapaksa forgot about Karma from the Buddhist Teachings
Conversely, did Prabhakaran remember Karma from Hindu teachings at Nanthikadal?
“The point is not even whether they had bodies in them or not. They were sites where the loved ones of the dead mourned. There might have been a propaganda purpose behind erecting the Mahaveerar Thuyilum Illams, but that obviously does not justify bringing down monuments for the dead.”
The fact that there are no dead there is most certainly the point. That factor changes the military’s action from one of desecration to one of counter-propaganda. If, as you admit, the purpose of creating the Tiger cemeteries was one of propaganda, then it definitely justifies their destruction, just as we justify the destruction of Nazi edifices. There is no reason for Tiger propaganda to outlive the Tigers themselves.
“Yes Hindus do cremate. But that the LTTE chose to ‘bury’ them and there were sites for memory – does it mean that you can’t and should not mourn at these places? What kind of an argument is that?”
It doesn’t mean that you can’t and shouldn’t mourn at these places; it means that you don’t have to mourn only at these places. If the bodies had been cremated there would have been no specific place selected for mourning. In most Hindu families, the dead are mourned at individual family shrines set up in the household. Why can’t that practice continue?
“Is there just one way in which the Tamil Hindus should mourn?”
I don’t know, but it is you that is suggesting that by implying that now that the cemeteries have been destroyed there is no place for Hindus to mourn.
“If your point is empirical that no one mourned at these sites”
That isn’t my point. I have made my point quite clear; namely that since there are no bodies in the Kopay Tiger cemetery, it has no purpose other than propaganda, and therefore doesn’t warrant the sacredness or reverence afforded an actual cemetery.
And it wasn’t Dr Saravananda who referred to the blogger Guruparan as “well known”; he was just referring to what he had read. It was Groundviews that called him that in the above article. So your implied conspiracy theories are a bit absurd. Perhaps you should have read the article more carefully.
DB,
I didnt notice GV’s reference to Guruparan in the post. My bad. And no i wasnt suggesting a conspiracy theory at all. I was just curious.
I said that one of the purposes was propaganda – all collective memory involves politics. An individual’s approach and response to such memories may be and are plural in character. It may very well be that a mother of a child soldier might be just venting out against the LTTE when she visits the Thuyilum Illam, for recruiting her child while at the same time supporting the LTTE. there are multiple reasons as to how people use monuments and sites of memorialisation. So DB you have to either argue against any and all forms of collective memory or you have to argue that there are certain forms of collective memory that should be disallowed (You seem to prefer the latter). Then the debate is about which politics you prefer.
The LTTE is not to be solely blamed for having a totalitarian agenda of building a mono ethnic state. The Rajapakshas could be accused of the same. Their building of monuments on the sides of A9 all throughout Vanni similarly deserves your criticism. Further as explained in my earlier comment there were Maaverar Thuyilum Illams that actually had graves. I am assuming that you will object to these being destroyed?
Aacharya, while what you say about collective memory being linked to physical places and monuments may be correct, you admit that these memories are subjective to political feelings. In this instance, my view is that the political ideal we must lean towards is an anti-Tiger, anti-suicide, anti-martyrdom, anti-terrorism ideal. Therefore the destruction of the Tiger political ideal which articulated itself through these manifestations must be destroyed, just as the Nazi ideal which manifested itself through racial superiority, genocide of inferior races, etc was also destroyed.
While this might deprive a mother of a fallen child soldier of a place that incorporates both her hatred and loyalty to the LTTE, we must look beyond her to future Tamil generations that might one day decide to take up arms once more. I am not at against people fighting for their rights, be they Tamil or whoever else, and if you had read the exchanges I’ve had with TT over the last month or so, you will have noticed that I’m quite aware that it was Sinhalese racism that spawned the call for separation. But what we must ensure never happens again is that no future Tamils are enamoured by the Tiger cult, so that no future battle for Tamil freedom takes that form. The Tiger ethos destroyed any chance for Tamil nationalism, and therefore was as destructive to the Tamils as it was to the Sinhalese; and must for that reason if none other be wiped out.
I have no issue with the building of monuments to fallen soldiers; those men sacrificed everything to rid the country of the Tiger scourge, and they deserve some recognition. If there were indeed bodies in other cemeteries, then that’s unfortunate, and it would be better to find another way; perhaps exhume them and bury them in their home villages or cremate them with Hindu ceremonies before destroying the cemeteries themselves.
I completely support the destruction of LTTE “cemeteries” – they are nothing but monuments to the macabre and Sri Lanka should have no space for them. We might as well have monuments for Hitler and the Nazis if we want to have these cemeteries lying about. Legally, they were built on State land and the state can choose to do what it wants with land that belongs to it – and that is exactly what has happened here. If there are those who want to mourn, there are plenty of temples/mosques/churches where this can be done – including one’s own home.
A Terrorist propoganda must not allowed to survive the death of the terrorists organization because propogranda and the content of it ,the ideology alone can stimulate the terror of memories of people suffered by war.And same time these shouldn’t be allowed to use as monuments of valour by pro-terror groups who usually survives dead of a terror organization.
In erasing these memorials of terror there will be only one opportunity to pro-terrorist groups to use in propaganda.It is the single situation of erasing the memorials.But if those memorials are allowed to exist they will have multiple chances to use them as their propaganda material and will use as a moral feed for resurrection of their terrorist organization if possible by using the memorials as the symbols of ideology of their dead terror organization.
There is no way common people feel sympathy about a terrorist organization so despicable as LTTE.They fought for a seperate state not for the rights of tamil people.If they fight for rights of tamils there is enough chances to come to peaceful solution,but they avoided it.They only wanted a portion of this country to rule and suck the life blood of the land.LTTE was a parasite that depended on tamil society and eventually sucking their lives away.
Now parasite has been killed in the price of hundred thousand lives in the three decades war persisted,there is no reason to allow LTTE symbols on the ground to exist.
Memorials without bodies should not be named graveyards.Still pro-LTTE ideologists howling desperately but they must learn it is impossible to revive their terrorist organization its ideology again in Sri Lankan soil..All these desperate howlings are at the end of the drama of fake post war atrocities.But people of this country now know to separate the true ground situation from fake claims by some people who call themselves independent journalists but sell themselves to bundles of dollar.
@Mango:
The LTTE were intensely fascinated by death, dead bodies et al. You must have missed out on the LTTE-instigated beheadings, lamppost executions, chopping, slicing, dicing, disemboweling, beatings etc – all done to ‘cleanse’ their area of ‘traitors’ and ‘criminals’ and to scare away border area villagers. All of it on public display to ensure that everyone knew the penalties for disobedience. There are plenty of pix the LTTE’s ‘morbid fascination’ on the net.
What you’re talking about refers to live people. I’m referring exclusively to dead bodies. The LTTE never abused dead bodies. Whereas, there are plenty of pix and videos of SLA abusing dead bodies of female LTTE cadre on the internet. The LTTE never raped anyone, so we can be sure that they did not indulge in similar behavior. Also, the LTTE never disemboweled anyone. Let us give credit where its due, and not on the basis of our imagination. Finally, the numerous obscene comments by Mr. Blacker on this forum, ex-member of the SLA, reflects the level of intelligence of the latter.
@Heshan,
I really didn’t want to get into an atrocity one-upmanship, but if you really insist..
I’m afraid that the LTTE did desecrate bodies of soldiers and civilians. If beheading and displaying of heads isn’t desecration, (e.g. Sgt Pathirana) I don’t know what is. They also indulged in occasional bouts of rape – all standard terror tactics to encourage population movements of non-Tamils from border areas.
There were also well-documented instances of LTTE commanders molesting/raping their underage cadres. They also disembowelled as and when required to spread terror. So, let’s at be honest about this.
Blacker can speak for himself and I don’t find his comments obscene. Rather, his front-line experience gives his testimony added value. In fact you should be thanking David for the free education he’s provided to you on a variety of topics including the intricacies of Sri Lankan constitution, military statistics etc!
“Finally, the numerous obscene comments by Mr. Blacker on this forum, ex-member of the SLA, reflects the level of intelligence of the latter.”
As a matter of fact, this is true!
At one point his (and some others’) personal attacks were so intense that GV closed the topic! Few of his commented were edited out too. These stood out because other bloggers were not doing it!
(Anyway he has improved now. Good on you DB!)
But it should not be taken as REPRESENTATIVE of SLA soldiers/officers in general.
Lol comments on intelligence and education are quite priceless coming from individuals who were unaware (until I educated them) that Hitler had lost WW2, that there was a general election in SL in 2001, that SL had a 13th Amendment to its constitution, that North Korea is a member of the UN, that the US developed the atom bomb and not eastern Europe, and so many other issues.
Sanjana should rename this the Groundviews Special High School for Re-Education of Bigots
DB,
So you think they didn’t know these basic things until you came along?
And they are bigots!
What would they call you?
I can see their are people who dispise defence forces of their own country in spite of their sacrificing of their lives to a worthy cause. That worthy cause was “making this country free of terrorism”.If they hadn’t acheived this great feat and defeated a terror organization that was said to be militarily insurmountable before the recent military operations there would have been no World Cup matches in Sri Lanka to enjoy our cricket fans(Also Colombo stock exchange would never be the one of best performing in world in that case).And we will have never will acheve 7-8% annual economic growth rate if there is still war eating valuble lives and property.In fact Sri Lanka might have been happened to face a similar fate as Sudan if the heroic efforts of Sri Lankan defence forces had been unsuccesful.So watch your tongue before insulting SLA.There is no morbid curiosity or obsession to SLA to commit despicable acts as desecration of graveyards.One can only desecrate something if it is sacred in first place.Those tiger memorials are not sacred places. They are symboles of the despicable history of the LTTE terrorism.Therefore we must not interpret these as immoral acts or violation.There should be no concern at all about these LTTE war monuments.
MOST IMPOPTANT IS LIVING ONES,NOT THE DEAD BODIES.It is the natures creation of giving lot value to living over dead,that’s why living eat dead( not dead eating living).Listen to nature understand it.Why be sorry for dead past.Look at living present and future to be born.Past is dredful and despicable grip of LTTE terrorists,present and future is the warm protection of security forces.Which will you choose desperate past or hopeful future?Decision is yours.You will reap what you sow.
Mango,
There were also well-documented instances of LTTE commanders molesting/raping their underage cadres. They also disembowelled as and when required to spread terror.
I have never come across such reports. I have seen pictures of Sinhalese villagers hacked to death, as well as beheaded but this is different from disembowellement. I have never come across any report of rape as far as the LTTE is concerned. Do provide your links to your sources, which shouldn’t be difficult, if, as you claim, such incidents of rape are “well-documented.”
Heshan,
So you’re setting your atrocity meter to ascertain which is worse – hacking or disembowelling ? A very odd set of priorities. Anyway, unlike Blacker, I’m not going to educate you for free and I really don’t want to re-visit those hideous images. Why not treat this as your homework on Sri Lanka’s atrocities and do your own research.
If you want me do it, make a contribution of (say) £100 to Groundviews and I’ll treat that as my research fee.
Here’s a tip: you’ll have to find Sinhala and Tamil sources; the latter being particularly circumspect when noting the increase in pregnancies and abortions in under-age female LTTE cadres.
[original reply posted in the wrong section!]
Mango,
I missed this portion of your commentary:
Blacker can speak for himself and I don’t find his comments obscene. Rather, his front-line experience gives his testimony added value. In fact you should be thanking David for the free education he’s provided to you on a variety of topics including the intricacies of Sri Lankan constitution, military statistics etc!
An ex-soldier will never criticize or condemn the organization he was once part of. I have come across many soldiers, and the pattern has never been broken. As for the “free education” you refer to, thanks but no thanks. It will be a dark day when Blacker and “education” become synonyms.
@Heshan,
Most servicemen I know do nothing but moan about their superiors, the kit, food, living conditions, illogical orders etc etc. It’s part of the system. They may not be so free with outsiders, however.
As for David’s criticism of the SLA, he can speak for himself — but if he’s never, ever criticised the highly fallible but ultimately victorious military machine, he must be a truly unique person! Again, Blacker can answer this best.
chaturanga:
defence forces of their own country in spite of their sacrificing of their lives to a worthy cause. That worthy cause was “making this country free of terrorism”.
Actually, that unworthy cause was putting the Rajapakses on a pedestal – above the reach of the law – and letting them rule for the next century, having first let them trample term limits, as per the Constitution. Once I said in this forum, to look at all the damage that the Bandaranaikes caused to the country. Does the country really need another dynasty? This dynasty will be worse than the last one, considering the lack of education among its members.
Heshan,
Not so. SLDFs rid the country of terrorists. Regular bus bombs, suicide bombings, village attacks, illegally cutting water, attacks in the sea, extortion, violating national boundaries, road blocks, not allowing elections in vanni, etc. have been eliminated along with the LTTE. These are tangible benefits people feel. They also made the entire north (at least 90% of it) accessible for all. It is a worthy cause for MOST SLs. Of course you cannot make everyone happy.
Rajapaksas gave it the political leadership. People are thankful for that. But being crooked politicians, they jailed SF after the war.
Mango,
If you want me do it, make a contribution of (say) £100 to Groundviews and I’ll treat that as my research fee.
So you are admitting you’re unable to find any credible sources to validate your allegations of LTTE rape?
Most servicemen I know do nothing but moan about their superiors, the kit, food, living conditions, illogical orders etc etc. It’s part of the system. They may not be so free with outsiders, however.
The last sentence is spot on. They will never turn on their superiors. I have seen live interviews with ex-Waffen SS soldiers. They didn’t really care that Germany – and in particular their unit – has been condemned by the rest of the world. These guys regret nothing. So my point is that its useless to discuss human rights with soldiers, even ex-soldiers, as they were trained to kill in cold blood.
Heshan:
Not at all. As I said, I’m not going to teach you, as others have done on this forum. Why not discover for yourself, evidence of disembowelling (which seems to fascinate you), rape etc. They do say that making your own discoveries is better than rote learning. You’ve learnt so much here on Groundviews, the least you can do is to contribute to its upkeep as I suggested. Then I’ll gladly dive into the internet sewer and find the pix you want to see.
“These guys regret nothing. So my point is that its useless to discuss human rights with soldiers, even ex-soldiers, as they were trained to kill in cold blood.”
The whole point of training soldiers is to enable them to be controlled and their aggression controlled and directed. I’d argue that the development of laws of war and HR in general was spurred by these ‘trained killers’ you despise because they were ones who’d benefit if the tables turned and were taken prisoner etc. e.g. The Red Cross & Geneva Conventions came into existence after the battle of Solferino.
I’ve seen (on German TV) and read (in German news mags/newspapers) of ex-Waffen SS and Wehrmacht being genuinely contrite for their criminal acts. So, your contention that they ‘never’ turn on their superiors is not true.
In any case, it seems that something only exists (or not) if you’ve seen it with your own eyes or read about it in English.
Sarvananthan has zero credibility. He gravely underestimated the number of civilians caught between the LTTE and the SLA in the Vanni. And when we was in the US briefly, he lied about some of the protests held in front of the White House; it is something that I can prove. Don’t ever listen to him anymore.
Agnos,
You often tell us whom not to listen to, such as Sarvananthan and UTHR, but you never tell us whom we should listen to.
Were there graves in the cemetery in Kopay?
Wijayapala,
When did I ask anyone not to listen to the UTHR? Despite occasional failures/errors, they tried to maintain their credibility by apologizing when they were in error. Indeed, I have myself quoted their reports several times.
When I know about the past lies of someone, why shouldn’t I ask people to not listen to him? There are a lot of credible people on the ground to talk about the cemteries. It is for you to find them and listen to them. If you don’t know anyone, then perhaps you should listen to Aachcharya and Marisa.
Correction: Should read when he was in the US briefly…
Disturbing the dead is a bad karma !!!
This is not first time though.
Many Tamils landmarks are demolished all over Sri Lanka.
The oppression of Tamils started 60 yrs ago and still continues.
In 1948 when Sri Lanka gained its independence from Great Britain, the Sinhala leaders sought to secure dominance over government by virtue of their majority.
The Tamil people are expected to be made second class citizens spanning several decades in Sri Lanka.
Many important policies were enforced in Sri Lanka that would continue to disenfranchise the Tamils from their own country such as in 1956 when the Sri Lankan government passed a measure that would recognize Sinhala as the only official language.
Other legislation approved would give preferential treatment to Sinhala, whether it would be for university or employment applications.
Their new constitution even stated it would protect and foster Buddhism.
All of these actions by the government, forced the Tamils to feel that they were being oppressed, discriminated against and their equal rights were being deteriorated with each passing day.
Due to the policies enacted by Sinhala leaders, the relations between the Sinhala and Tamil communities eroded and for the next 60+ years and not only the erosion of Tamil rights but also the erosion of the Tamil homeland.
A victimhood mentality is not going to get the Tamil people anywhere. It is time this mentality is set aside and it time the Tamil people move forward instead of insisting to all and sundry that they are the poor victims who need everyone’s sympathies and pats on the back. The fact is the LTTE is gone and the Sri Lankan Tamils have to work within the Sri Lankan state to realise whatever aspirations they have.
Trying to take on the Sri Lankan state has proved devastating to the Sri Lankan Tamil community and they are now at risk of becoming less important politically than the Sri Lankan Muslim population who long ago decided to work with the Sri Lankan state. It is only through co-operation with the Sri Lankan government and with non-Tamil groups can the Sri Lankan Tamil community hope to lift themselves out of the mire they find themselves in. ‘
Unfortunately the signs so far are not promising.
Why the Sinhalese are desecrating the Tamil cemeteries?
This is an ideological war to demolish the very souls of the Tamils
By war, I am referring to the systematic and ideologically coherent practices of the Sri Lanka state against the Tamils and other non-Sinhalese. What we see today is the intensification of structural violence against the Tamil people that began from independence.
I mean more the structural practices of the state, aimed at limiting and suppressing the thriving of non-Sinhala people. We are familiar with some of these: colonization, erasing of Tamil usage in state practices, and the efforts to limit and destroy the socio-economic possibilities for Tamils.
The GoSL wants to turn Sri Lanka into a modern day realization of an ancient myth that the island belongs to the Sinhalese and in which the minorities have a subordinate existence. As such, anyone who stands in the way of Sinhala majoritarianism including principled Sinhalese who are not supportive of that project are destroyed.
Arul
“This is an ideological war to demolish the very souls of the Tamils”
How come the SLA is not demolishing any Hindu temples, or Christian churches or cemeteries? Why only the LTTE sites?
Wijayapala
Wijayapala
Thousands of Hindu Temples and Christian Churches were demolish by the Sri Lanka Army !!
Dear Arul;
“Thousands of Hindu Temples and Christian Churches were demolish by the Sri Lanka Army !!”
How many thousands, Arul?
Thanks!
Dear Vasala Rajasuriya;
You have found the perfect word for Tamil mentality today.
“victimhood mentality”
Thanks!
But Sri Lanka does ‘belong’ to the Sinhalese people just like Tamil Nadu ‘belongs’ to the Tamils.
…and Israel to the Jews and France to the French. The Sinhalese have been the guardians of Sri Lanka and its Buddhism;not the Tamils or Muslims or DunceBeans! That has been the the historical tradition and in keeping with that the present day traditions are shaped.
Vasala Rajasuriar,
It seems to me that ‘ignorance is bliss’ to you. You are sadly spouting out the clichéd myth that sadly many Sinhalese spout due to the fact that they have been ‘taught’ how to think. The Vijaya story is a myth, written by a Buddhist monk to preserve and maintain Buddhism’s prominent position in this land. The Sinhalese are very likely descendants of South Indians/Dravidians or Tamils, Malayalis,Telugus and Kannadigas. But with the coming of Buddhism and the Pali language in which Buddhist texts were written it helped form the new language of Sinhalese and thereby the forming of a new ethnic group called the Sinhalas or Sinhalese. DNA tests have partly proved that Sinhalese are of Tamil or Dravidian descent. So lets not get into this topic of to whom this country belongs just because Sinhalese is only spoken in Sri Lanka. The English language developed in England and thereby helped in the creation of the English ethnic group but the English are not from England but rather from Germany.
Dear myil selvan;
“The Sinhalese are very likely descendants of South Indians/Dravidians or Tamils, Malayalis,Telugus and Kannadigas.”
Why talks of “likely”? Be clear and precise about it.
Ignorance is bliss for you!
Thanks!
SL belongs to Sinhala, Tamil, Muslim, Burgur, SL Chinese, SL Jewish, Veddha, Malay, etc. people. All of them.
Not only to the Sinhalese.
e.g. The highest personal gallantry award is PWV.
2 have won it so far.
1. Gamini Kularatna (1991)
2. Fazly Laphir (1996)
LRRP, DPU teams have done such brave acts that they cannot even be discussed in public. EPDP, TMVP groups have also sacrificed a lot for SL. Most of them Tamils.
A clear indication SL belongs to all.
No Tamil homelands in SL. Tamil homeland is Tamil Nadu.
Why aren’t there any LTTE “cemetaries” in Tamil Nadu? Its time Tamils construct some of these in Tamil Nadu as well!! May be these are in SL only because they cannot do these in Tamil Nadu!!
“The Sinhalese have been the guardians of Sri Lanka and its Buddhism;not the Tamils or Muslims”
[Edited out] Really? So as a Buddhist why weren’t you up there in the north when we were guarding SL? I was there; I’m not a Buddhist or a Sinhalese, and I didn’t see you. I saw my friends, some of whom were Muslim and Christian. So where were you, when Sri Lanka needed to be guarded, hiding somewhere saying “not my war”? Where were you, and all you Buddhist internet weerayas who think this country is Sinhalese-Buddhist?
And TT, GV’s resident [Edited out], who can’t get a single fact in a single comment right. There are EIGHT winners of the PWV, not two. You don’t deserve to even say their names, [Edited out] never mind use them to defend your bigotry. [Edited out.] And of that eight, one is a Muslim, one is a Christian. One quarter of all the PWV winners are minorities in a war fought against a minority. You should be ashamed, all you Sinhala-Only SL-is-the-home-of-the-Buddhists India-is-the-home-of-the-Tamils patriotic [Edited out.] Read that list and hide your faces in shame, Vasula, TT, and the Iiiiiiiiiiidiot:
Captain Saliya Aladeniya – 2nd (volunteer) Battalion, Sri Lanka Sinha Rifles, Kokavil, June 1990.
Corporal Gamini Kularatne – 6th Battalion, Sri Lanka Sinha Rifles, Elephant Pass, July 1991.
2nd Lieutenant KWT Nissanka – 3rd Battalion, the Gajaba Regiment, Pooneryn, November 1993.
Warrant Officer 2nd Class Pasan Gunasekera – 10th Battalion, the Gajaba Regiment, Chiruthivu Island, November 1995.
Colonel Fazly Lafir – CO 1st Special Forces Regiment, Mullaitivu, July 1996.
Lance Corporal WIM Seneviratne – 7th Battalion, Sri Lanka Light Infantry, Jaffna, July 1996.
Major G. S. Jayanath – 3rd Commando Regiment, Mankulam, December 1997.
Lieutenant-Commander Jude Wijethunge – 4th Fast Attack Flotilla, Sri Lanka Navy, off Mullaitivu, 2008.
These are the people who guarded this country at its most vulnerable; not you. It’ll never be you.
Thanks for that list David Blacker. I note all of them are Sinhalese except for one Fazly Lafir. So I guess it is the Sinhalese who ‘guarded the country at its most vulnerable’ with a tiny sprinkling of Malays.
No, Vasala, it wasn’t Sinhalese who defended the nation; the vast majority of Sinhalese did absolutely nothing to defend SL (in fact, some of them tried to topple the GoSL twice). It was servicemen and -women who defended this country; and some of them were Sinhalese (Christian as well as Buddhist), some of them were Moors and Malays, and some of them were Burghers like me.
David, you and I and everyone else knows that the vast majority of servicemen who laid down their lives for the country were Sinhalese. So it’s not “some” it is “the vast majority” who were Sinhalese. There were a sprinkling of Muslims – largely Malays and not ethnic Moors – and one or two solitary Burghers, perhaps. But let’s not try and pretend there was any significant Muslim or Burgher presence. To do so would be dishonest.
Well, Vasala, the vast majority of Sri Lanka is also Sinhalese, so by saying that that the majority of deaths are Sinhalese you don’t award the Sinhalese race some sort of special position as the defenders of the nation
In contrast, the fact that in spite of decades of Sinhalese nationalism, racist policies such as Sinhala Only, the constitutional enshrinement of Buddhism, and many other actions that have been both callous and dismissive of the minorities, these other ethnic groups have still been willing to lay their lives on the line for the sake of our country. So who do you think should be proud, and who do you think should be ashamed?
Dear Vasala
RE: “But Sri Lanka does ‘belong’ to the Sinhalese people just like Tamil Nadu ‘belongs’ to the Tamils.”
Good heavens! That’s an outright racist statement Vasala. So the country’s ownership is determined by race? and not by citizenship? Your inability to grasp the racism inherent in that remark alone is indicative of the problem at large Vasala. I sincerely hope you think long and hard about it – the creation of an ethical and just society for the citizens of our country, who are all equal stakeholders, depends upon it!
It is necessary to realize that the Sinhalese as a majority are more in a position to be abusive in their power-relationships than any other race in this country – so great care is needed in both word and action. Otherwise, you reduce all us Sinhalese to the status of majoritarian racist bullies.
Secondly, you never commented on my previous reply to you regarding the ethics of majoritarianism. I hope it is an inadvertent instead of a deliberate omission – because the only remaining conclusion would be that you, like some others on this forum, are not interested in honest debate and discussion, only in propaganda sound bites.
“RE: “But Sri Lanka does ‘belong’ to the Sinhalese people just like Tamil Nadu ‘belongs’ to the Tamils.”
Good heavens! That’s an outright racist statement Vasala.”
…………
Do you mean to say “But Sri Lanka does not ‘belong’ to the Sinhalese people just like Tamil Nadu does not ‘belongs’ to the Tamils.”
Good heavens! That’s an outright racist statement SD.
Thanks!
DB,
Thank you for the info.
It proves MY point!!
FYI let me repost it!
“SL belongs to Sinhala, Tamil, Muslim, Burgur, SL Chinese, SL Jewish, Veddha, Malay, etc. people. All of them.
Not only to the Sinhalese.
[I gave a list of examples of how ppl of ALL ETHNICITIES defended SL. And DB added to it, NOT contradicted it.]
A clear indication SL belongs to all.”
DB wants to argue for the sake of arguing without reading what I have said. He doesn’t realize he is sometimes scoring own goals!!
BTW DB, please refrain from posting content that needs to be edited out.
Yapa, how is pointing out that one race cannot be superior to others or hold a unique position exclusive of others, be racist?
“Do I have to repeat? This is THE way MOST Tamils feel.”
you don’t have to repeat; you just have to substantiate. How do you know most Tamils feel this way? Earlier you claimed most Tigers were women; but when I asked you to substantiate this, you retracted the comment; mostly because it made your connected comment about rape being an effective tool of war even more atrocious than it already was.
“You argue for the sake of arguing without any substance. If you want to have the last say on everything literally, have it, but that doesn’t sit well with reality.”
No, I want you to understand that unsubstantiated generalisations, vague and uncorroborated myths, and so forth have no place in intelligent debate.
“These policies can be maintained without such a huge military if the north is as multiethnic as the “south”. That is why I support colonization of the north as the only long term solution. but initially a huge military is needed because northern Tamils may not like colonization.”
So you admit that colonisation benefits only the majority and must therefore be enforced by the military. My point exactly. Democratic policies in governance don’t require a military to enforce them; only a police force and a judiciary to uphold them.
“On the other hand, all countries maintain a powerful military to maintain their defence, political, etc, policies.”
Defence from outside threats and unconstitutional internal threats. Democratic policies do not require a military to enforce them internally.
“The important thing is there should be value in these policies for MOST SLs when you take out the military part. And they do.”
But you earlier claimed that your policies benefit ALL Sri Lankans, not just MOST. Are you changing your earlier claim?
“As I have spoon fed you so many times, Tamil only areas have more SLDF numbers deployed than other areas. Look at it another way, multiethnic areas have very little SLDF deployment. This means policies are popular at least in multiethnic areas needing no large SLDF presence to perpetuate them.”
As I already told you, if a policy requires the military to enforce it, it has already failed the democratic principles it needs to fall under. The SLDF deployment was against a Tiger threat to the constitution, not to enforce government policies on SL citizens. Once the challenge to the constitution has been removed, the military must also be removed to peacetime deployment.
Thank you for the info.
It proves MY point!!
[Edited out.]
““SL belongs to Sinhala, Tamil, Muslim, Burgur, SL Chinese, SL Jewish, Veddha, Malay, etc. people. All of them. Not only to the Sinhalese.”
Then why is it that you want only the language of the Sinhalese to have official recognition?
Mango,
It is not about you learning or me learning. I am asking that you back up a claim with a valid reference . This is pretty standard when it comes to debating . If you cannot back up your claim, then it is no longer valid. Since you have not provided a reference which backs up your claim that the LTTE engaged in rape and disembowelment, I will presume that your claim is false . I do not wish to debate the matter further without a valid reference from your end.
@ Heshan
I don’t see why David Blacker should have all the fun in proving you wrong on consistent basis. I’ve already proved you wrong when you asserted that the LTTE ‘didn’t desecrate bodies’. So descend into the gutter starting from here:
http://chanthamama.blogspot.com/
http://www.slnewsonline.net/LTTE_atrocities_on_18_September_1999.htm
http://www.sinhaya.com/Massacres.htm
http://transcurrents.com/tc/2010/12/war_crimes_allegations_and_the.html
Plenty of gory pix and reports of abuse (hacking, disembowelling, rape etc) for your enjoyment and edification.
Now, be a good boy and pay up the £100 to a charity – perhaps one helping kids in the war-affected areas in SL.
p.s. can you explain why disembowelling is better or worse than hacking off limbs?
Bulldozing Tamil cemeteries, urging Tamil people to forget their family members who were killed by the Sri Lankan Forces will only further alienate the Tamils and stall reconciliation.
Obliterating the graveyards displays a callous Sri Lanka Military disregard for both the dead and the living.
We must remember that those dead Tamils buried the desecrated graveyards have fathers and mothers, sisters and brothers, wives and husbands, sons and daughters
The desecration of their graves deprives the kin of the dead a place to grieve their loved ones
Sasri Kaan Rajapalan!(Prosperity in Punjabi)
Whyyyyyy are you replacing the word “Tiger” in “Tiger cemerties” with the word “Tamil”? Is it to say as almost all the Tigers were Tamils you can interchange the two words? Tigers were a sub group within the Tamil community and not vice-versa! These are not simply Tamil cemetries, but Tiger monuments or memorials, OK? RAZING THEM TO THE GROUND IS NOTHING TO CRY ABOUT, unless you shed tears for their demise!
What we have to distinguish here is whether these are LTTE monuments or not. If they are the monuments of LTTE, non has a right to talk about. LTTE is a terrorist group even in terms of international standards.
Even if it is not so, no one has a right to use a land that does not belong to them for any purpose. If the particular land belongs to the government and no one has obtained permission to use it from the government, government has the sole right to use its land at any time it wishes.
On the other hand why those who are crying now, didn’t prevent the illegal act of using government land by some unauthorized people, before it was done?
Is there any rationale behind this foul cry?
No any sign of cruel LTTE should be left. All of them should be erased even from the minds of the people. That is a good service done to this country and the to whole world for peaceful living.
Their destructive invention, “suicide bomb”, is continuing to operate in many countries to harm the peaceful world. Signs of cruelty have to go.
Thanks!
A bit more addition to my post above….
Does anybody claim that they are not LTTE monuments?
Thanks!
I don’t agree with this at all.
But I agree that this is the GENERAL, INNOCENT view of MOST Tamils around the world including SL of the issue.
We can argue till cows come home but this is the conviction of most Tamils.
I urge others to recognize this FACT.
But don’t jumpt to extremist conclusions.
I’m not saying we did the BAD or WRONG thing and we should not have done so.
NO! We did the right thing by SL, its people, its defences, etc. But it hurts Tamils.
Take war as another example. The war brought tangible peace to SL. No one can deny that. No regular bombings, suicide bombings, air raids, destruction of economic nerve centres, no boycott of elections forcibly, no road blocks by terrorists, etc. But some Tamils aren’t happy. For them this ‘peace’ came at a too huge cost. They don’t event call it peace.
No point silencing them; threatening them into agree with our ways; arguing with them; calling them names; trying to prove Tamils are “totally” different to LTTE. You may do these but nothing happens.
A solution must be found for SL’s benefit NOT necessarily for Tamils. SL CANNOT find solutions for Tamil problems. Tamil problems are inter-related across Tamils in SL, Tamil Nadu Tamils, Diaspora Tamils which is much much bigger (80,000,000) than SL and SL population (20,000,000).
Resolve problems with equal individual rigths. Give ALL equal individual rights to Tamils and minority cultural rights and FULLSTOP. They will still NOT be happy. That is not the point.
Seperate SL territory from Tamil unhappyness. Create large multi ethnic settlements in the north state sponsored, backed by the military victory. That will NOT supress or eliminate the Tamil voice. But it will add OTHER voices to the north that are SRI LANKAN.
Stop trying to resolve Tamil problems; look at problems of ALL 100% of the population and the nation – SL. If what is good for SL as a nation and for equal individual rights of 100% of the population is bad for Tamils, Sinhalese or Muslims, so be it.
The north is NOT Tamil territory. It is SL territory. Stop Tamils monopolising it. Remove Tamil problems from the territory. That will solve SL’s problems. Thereafter we may look at Tamil problems which must be resolved WITHOUT regard to the territory. Same goes for Sinhala, etc. problems. They too must be resolved without regard to the territory.
The rest is upto the Rs. 170,000,000,000 a year military.
Dear TT,
You said, “The north is NOT Tamil territory. It is SL territory.”
Well in that case the Sinhala Buddhist majority should also be educated that the whole of Sri Lanka is NOT Sinhala Buddhist territory, but SL territory!
ps. Evere wonder when there will be a non Sinhala Buddhist PresiDunce in Sri Lanka like they have a non white PresiDunce in USA?
“We can argue till cows come home but this is the conviction of most Tamils.”
How do you know? Is this like when you said most Tigers were women?
“But don’t jumpt to extremist conclusions.”
You mean like you did when you jumped to the conclusion that colonisation of the north was the solution to the ethnic problem (even though you earlier claimed that there was no ethnic problem)?
“Take war as another example. The war brought tangible peace to SL. No one can deny that.”
But before the war there was tangible peace too. So isn’t it true that it wasn’t war that brought peace, but that the ending of the war brought peace?
“No regular bombings, suicide bombings, air raids, destruction of economic nerve centres, no boycott of elections forcibly, no road blocks by terrorists, etc.”
But there were none of these things before the war either. So how can you claim that war put an end to these things, when in fact it was war that brought these things?
“But some Tamils aren’t happy.”
But some Sinhalese, like Heshan and the Dunce, aren’t happy either.
“A solution must be found for SL’s benefit NOT necessarily for Tamils. SL CANNOT find solutions for Tamil problems.”
Then SL would have failed, because SL Tamils are part of SL, and a successful nation must find solutions for ALL its citizens, not just some.
“Tamil problems are inter-related across Tamils in SL, Tamil Nadu Tamils, Diaspora Tamils which is much much bigger (80,000,000) than SL and SL population (20,000,000).”
Can you show any evidence that TN Tamil problems (if any) are connected to SL Tamil problems?
“Resolve problems with equal individual rigths. Give ALL equal individual rights to Tamils and minority cultural rights and FULLSTOP. They will still NOT be happy. That is not the point.”
That is because there are collective rights as well as individual ones, and both need to be fulfilled.
“Seperate SL territory from Tamil unhappyness.”
So you’re advocating separatism?
“Create large multi ethnic settlements in the north state sponsored, backed by the military victory. That will NOT supress or eliminate the Tamil voice. But it will add OTHER voices to the north that are SRI LANKAN.”
but the Tamil voices in the north are already Sri Lankan.
“Stop trying to resolve Tamil problems”
The GoSL between independence and 1983 also believed as you do. The result was war. Are you hoping your children and grandchildren will have to fight a similar war? Is it because you’ve never experienced war, that you hope for this?
“look at problems of ALL 100% of the population and the nation – SL.”
But you earlier said that we shouldn’t solve the Tamils’ problems. How can you solve everyone’s problems if you’re leaving out some of them?
“If what is good for SL as a nation and for equal individual rights of 100% of the population is bad for Tamils, Sinhalese or Muslims, so be it.”
So you’re saying if the majority (Sinhalese) problems are solved, the minorities don’t matter?
“The north is NOT Tamil territory. It is SL territory. Stop Tamils monopolising it.”
Well, your home is SL territory too. Should the GoSL move people in there to say solve the problem of landlessness?
“Remove Tamil problems from the territory. That will solve SL’s problems. Thereafter we may look at Tamil problems which must be resolved WITHOUT regard to the territory. Same goes for Sinhala, etc. problems. They too must be resolved without regard to the territory.”
That is why the 13th Amendment must be implemented so that Tamils and other minorities will have equal rights as the Sinhalese EVERYWHERE in SL, regardless of territory.
“The rest is upto the Rs. 170,000,000,000 a year military.”
If a government needs a military to perpetuate its policies, there is something wrong with the policies.
Dear PB,
“Well in that case the Sinhala Buddhist majority should also be educated that the whole of Sri Lanka is NOT Sinhala Buddhist territory, but SL territory!”
Absolutely!
DB,
I said: “We can argue till cows come home but this is the conviction of most Tamils.”
Do I have to repeat? This is THE way MOST Tamils feel.
You argue for the sake of arguing without any substance. If you want to have the last say on everything literally, have it, but that doesn’t sit well with reality.
“If a government needs a military to perpetuate its policies, there is something wrong with the policies.”
These policies can be maintained without such a huge military if the north is as multiethnic as the “south”. That is why I support colonization of the north as the only long term solution. but initially a huge military is needed because northern Tamils may not like colonization.
On the other hand, all countries maintain a powerful military to maintain their defence, political, etc, policies. The important thing is there should be value in these policies for MOST SLs when you take out the military part. And they do.
As I have spoon fed you so many times, Tamil only areas have more SLDF numbers deployed than other areas. Look at it another way, multiethnic areas have very little SLDF deployment. This means policies are popular at least in multiethnic areas needing no large SLDF presence to perpetuate them.
“Do I have to repeat? This is THE way MOST Tamils feel.”
you don’t have to repeat; you just have to substantiate. How do you know most Tamils feel this way? Earlier you claimed most Tigers were women; but when I asked you to substantiate this, you retracted the comment; mostly because it made your connected comment about rape being an effective tool of war even more atrocious than it already was.
“You argue for the sake of arguing without any substance. If you want to have the last say on everything literally, have it, but that doesn’t sit well with reality.”
No, I want you to understand that unsubstantiated generalisations, vague and uncorroborated myths, and so forth have no place in intelligent debate.
“These policies can be maintained without such a huge military if the north is as multiethnic as the “south”. That is why I support colonization of the north as the only long term solution. but initially a huge military is needed because northern Tamils may not like colonization.”
So you admit that colonisation benefits only the majority and must therefore be enforced by the military. My point exactly. Democratic policies in governance don’t require a military to enforce them; only a police force and a judiciary to uphold them.
“On the other hand, all countries maintain a powerful military to maintain their defence, political, etc, policies.”
Defence from outside threats and unconstitutional internal threats. Democratic policies do not require a military to enforce them internally.
“The important thing is there should be value in these policies for MOST SLs when you take out the military part. And they do.”
But you earlier claimed that your policies benefit ALL Sri Lankans, not just MOST. Are you changing your earlier claim?
“As I have spoon fed you so many times, Tamil only areas have more SLDF numbers deployed than other areas. Look at it another way, multiethnic areas have very little SLDF deployment. This means policies are popular at least in multiethnic areas needing no large SLDF presence to perpetuate them.”
As I already told you, if a policy requires the military to enforce it, it has already failed the democratic principles it needs to fall under. The SLDF deployment was against a Tiger threat to the constitution, not to enforce government policies on SL citizens. Once the challenge to the constitution has been removed, the military must also be removed to peacetime deployment.
Dear Bean,
It’s unfortunate that you should follow up an excellent statement like this: “Well in that case the Sinhala Buddhist majority should also be educated that the whole of Sri Lanka is NOT Sinhala Buddhist territory, but SL territory!”
with a silly one like this: “ps. Evere wonder when there will be a non Sinhala Buddhist PresiDunce in Sri Lanka like they have a non white PresiDunce in USA?”
The problem with the latter question should be apparent. The Tamil community too must align itself with a *common destiny* with the rest of Sri Lanka. It is ludicrous to expect a Tamil president if the Tamil community at large is not perceived to be interested in it, and instead, is perceived as those vying for separatism. Sorry Bean, racist stereotyping is a very hard trait for people to shed (as seen on this very forum) – so don’t expect any magic until and unless the Tamil community too takes a more progressive stand. In that, there’s some truth in what the Sinhalese nationalist has to say – it’s high time to shed this victim-hood mentality and take what positive steps are possible in the political space available.
The only battle one can hope to win Bean, is a battle for equality – for the moral superiority of the stance will be increasingly difficult to deny in a 21st century world, even for the most retrograde of Sinhala extremists. On the other hand, it is much harder to gain moral superiority by advocating terrorism and separatism I’m afraid.
I personally feel that these LTTE garves are an abberation of Hindu culture. Hindus
do not bury their dead as Christians do. The Christian tradtion arose from the belief that the bodies will rise from the grave on the day of judgment, and the chosen will rise to heaven. So it was important to not disturb the graves. Such Christian graves should be in church yards. But we Hindus believe that the dead body is a defilement. It is cremated and the ashes are scattered. But the LTTE tried to even use the dead as a weapon, to make their memory a continued weapon.
In effect, we need to return to ur traditions. these graves must go, except for those who are Christians, who could have graves in their respective churches. We need to return to our Hindu traditions.
Very strangely our pro-TE buddies have overlooked this comment!
What not have they sacrificed for Tamil Elam! Even Hindu traditions.
But at the end of the day they ended up with cemeteries only. Nothing lasting. What a crime!
To diffuse war mongering, GOSL should erect a monument for all those who died irrespective of ethnicity including IPKF. It should not have names or photos, but a carving to symbolize a person. That’s all. 100,000 carvings.
Then people of all political views can respect it.
But I guess some will not! They will want to have a seperate monument for Tamils!
Mango,
First of all, the websites you gave merely confirm my point. Here is one picture from a website you gave:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Fgxiepq-MUs/TF-q_Ue1jbI/AAAAAAAAARY/2Q9zx92qAfg/s400/image019.jpg
Disembowelment means removal of actual organs. None of the person’s organs have been removed in the above picture – he is still in one piece. During WWII, for example, the Japanese disemboweled tens of thousands of their Chinese victims. People like Blacker who have zero knowledge of WWII and cry about atomic bombs, have no idea about the Japanese obsession with everything gory.
None of the websites you gave mention anything about the LTTE raping.
I’ve already proved you wrong when you asserted that the LTTE ‘didn’t desecrate bodies’.
I clearly stated that the LTTE never desecrated dead bodies. If you discrete a living body, then that is torture, which is a different story.
Try again and come up with reliable sources to prove your claim of LTTE rape/disembowelment.
@Heshan,
You have to read a bit more closely — look at 4th link and see if you can find the rape testimony.
A reasonable and objective person would agree that severing the head from a dead body (e.g. Sgt Pathirana) and displaying it as a warning is most certainly ‘desecration’. I didn’t realise that you’re an adherent of the Humpty Dumpty (who famously said “When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”) school of semantology. As for disembowelling, I’m afraid some of those victims whose bodies are covered in sheets were disembowelled by the LTTE squads.
p.s. You inability to accept the fact that Blacker’s proven you wrong so many times on the subjects you mention is commendable and odd.
@sivaguru:
The point is that the SLA destroyed the graves because these were graves of LTTE . If there had been crosses in the graveyard, the crosses would also have been destroyed. If there had been a kovil in the middle of the graveyard, the kovil would also have been destroyed. If there had been a duck pond in the middle of the graveyard, it would have also been destroyed. If there had been a tree in the middle of the graveyard, it would also have been destroyed.
Everything within the perimeter of the graveyard was destroyed.
What this shows is a complete and total hatred of the LTTE by the SLA.
Ultimately, one must ask whether such total hatred is rational or irrational. A graveyard does not have much more than symbolic value; after all, the dead do not speak. If the Sri Lankan Government cannot even tolerate a symbol, what does it point to, except a fear of Tamil nationalism that goes well beyond the LTTE.
Heshan,
Looks like they are the graves of Tamil Elam!
The point is, Prof Heshan, in spite of the fact that you follow an agenda that wants to portray the war as one of religion, there weren’t any crosses, kovils, or other religious symbols in these cemeteries. There were only LTTE symbols.
In contrast, many of Germany’s religious institutions in the ’30s and ’40s incorporated Nazi symbolism with their own. After Germany’s defeat, all symbols of the Nazi party were removed or destroyed by the Allies. Do you think this hatred of Nazism was also irrational? They missed a few, fortunately, so that we have living proof and not just photos. There’s a church in Berlin which still has Nazi symbolism and images such as Nazi stormtroopers on the walls and a carving of Hitler incorporated into the pulpit.
Only problem on your opinion is that Who is Nazi for who ? who is Hitler for who in Sri lanka?
If you want to remove separatist feeling fron tamil people : it will only work if tamil people have teh real feeling thier rights and sentiments are respected and protected in Sri lanka. This kind of cheap behaviour of “playing” with dead bobies is only giving and alien and canibalist image to the SLA…in teh heart of tamils anyway.
Only if that’s your sole focus and measurement criteria. The fact that you can’t figure out who represents Hitler in our war makes it pretty clear that your viewpoint wasn’t gained by any SL Army destruction of a cemetery.
It appears that a fact that these were Tiger terrorist monuments to Tiger terrorists and no bodies were buried. Don’t Hindus cremate anyway? Therefore these monuments were probably propaganda pieces for Tigers. The Russians did away with Hitler’s body and Goebbels body and other Nazi bodies. Wijeweera’s body was also cremated and disposed of so that there are no places for people to gather and perpetuate propaganda. There is a lot of rationale for that approach. If there were no bodies then charges of sacrilege are false. Besides Tigers deserved every bloody knock they received. They were fascist racists who wanted an exclusive state for themselves whilst 54% of Tamils apparently had a right to live elsewhere. Hattotuwa and Paikyasothti and self appointed fake Doctor Jehan all made a lot of western NGOs happy with their regime bashing dire predictions about how the war cannot be won and how the Tigers could not be beaten. Now that the Tiger terrorist Tamils were whupped lock stock and barrel they need to keep perpetuating their bile venomously on anything and everything this regime does. Why is Hattotuwa not talking about the amazing record of rehabilitation compared to what the US and British Christians did? Why aren’t the very well of CPA and NPC talk about the massive development work and the rehabilitation in record time ? Is there nothing good the Mahinda Regime has done for you to appreciate since the military aspect of the war ended?
@CrackPotNGO
“so that there are no places for people to gather and perpetuate propaganda”
Agreed. That means monuments for fallen soldiers that serve to perpetuate GoSL propaganda should go too. Why have double standards?
This land belongs to Prison’s dept. and that mean it belongs to government. LTTE build up these monuments for their propaganda to recruit more carders and to show the world. The government grdually relesing the HSZ and other property they took over during the war period to the original owners. The land in Jaffna peninsula is scarce so we must thank government to build up army camp without take over private property. Think what kind of criticism diaspora make if the government take over land belongs to people in Jaffna and build the army camp.
Singala racists will even send their mother to sleep with Rajapakse if he can hurt more tamil people. That s a fact.
LTTE caders did not come from another planet, they are kids , brothers and sisters of tamil people who are also Sri lankan “citizens”.
IN any countries when some human being are killed by others the whole community of the country will voice for justice and to punich the culpist , but only for our Singala brothers as long as the victimes are tamil , there is no need for any investigations ..all people killed in Vanni are ” terrorists”.
I dont blame politicians : politicians do racist things and war crimes because they know they can sell them for good prize to the heartless racists..
Hyperbole has long been a hallmark of Tamil nationalism/extremism. This has not helped the Tamil cause at all. Trying to find enemies in all non-Tamils has not brought the Tamil people closer to prosperity or harmony. If Tamils are to progress they need to work with non-Tamils and this includes the Sinhalese.
Sadly this has some truths.
If you compare 1971 (pre vadukoddai) census and 2007 (post vadukoddai) census of jaffna, you see this. The 2007 census was only carried in jaffna by SLA.
Sinhala, Muslim and Other communities in Jaffna have reduced to ZERO! Tamil percentage has risen to 100%.
Dear tamilan
“LTTE caders did not come from another planet, they are kids , brothers and sisters of tamil people who are also Sri lankan “citizens”.”
You could have prevented your kids , brothers and sisters becoming terrorists and prevented them being killed, why didn’t you do it? You didn’t love your kids , brothers and sisters?
Why scolding others?, scold who made them become terrorists.
Thanks!
Yapa,
Noone want to send their loved ones to do war whether in rebel goups or even in regular armies.
What will you do when even the police and army which are supposed to protect you start massacering your people …you become a rebel
People do it because it is teh only option for that race to survive. Sri lankan army never fought with any foreign armies: they did world war type war to its own people. SLA did 10000 times more than what Kadafi is doing to its own people…strangly he is also using the word ” terrorist” to justify this…
LTTE did not become an “army” over night : it is the millitery approch of teh racist sri lankan regimes without regards to the civilian lives which puched the lTTE be become more armed and powerful..
Vasala Rajasuriya,
Come and see in western world with how many diffrent communities tamil people work , which includes Singalese. In ur Singalse society … Buddist monks , who are supposed to call for peace were the main extremist pushing gvt to kills tamils… how many tamil priests were pushing LTTE to kill people…none !
The wolrd order is changing from 11/9 era to facebook era ..dont dream lies and bans can hide teh truth for longtime…
Tamilian
A very good analysis!
The wholesale slaughter of Tamils is always hushed up in Sri Lanka.
The Sinhalese are always turn a blind eye to the inhumane mass murder of the minority Tamils like in the Black July Tragedy.
The bloodthirsty Sinhalese Racists stopped a bus full of Tamil women, children and burned them alive in it.
There are numerous examples of such outrageous horrors in Black July 1983 yet no one was prosecuted in the Sri Lanka Courts for this .
Why ?
Burning human beings alive is accepted by the Sinhalese as a normal part of Sinhalese life as long the victims are Tamils ?
Dear Tamilan
“What will you do when even the police and army which are supposed to protect you start massacering your people …you become a rebel”
There is an alternative- running away. That is a highly reasonable move and it is very understandable why you did that.
What is not reasonable is how the same people who ran away are praising the fighting that made them run away to begin with. Could you please explain this contradiction?
wijayapala
“running away” option helped as well : that is reason why war criminals and their supporters are spot lighted and tamil struggle came to know to the international community. When MR is crying not able to travel to democratic countries shows only tamil diaspora has the voice for tamil people. Otherwise singala brothers would close the eyes and tell the tourists there is nothing to see in north and while their army and fanatic monks finish up elliminated whole tamil race …then to lie there were never been any tamils in Sri lanka only singalese born from a lion… and Budha status will replace Murugan in Nalur…
By saying tamil people had just to run away shows you are 100% aware and accepting the discrimination and elimination of tamils…
But MOST Tamils didn’t and DON’T run away!
There are 3,000,000 Tamils in SL. SL has the HIGHEST Tamil population percentage in the world. Didn’t the SL leader speak in Tamil at the UN? The only person to do so!
Assuming the Tamil Diaspora is 800,000 strong, there are 3,800,000 what Tamilnet.com calls Eezam Tamils. 79% of them are still in SL!!
Strangely the run away crowd bypassed well known Tamil Nadu just 30 km away and settled in completely unknown but RICHER countries a thousand miles away!!! (100,000 did go to TN but some have returned. Anyway it is no match for the 700,000 others.)
A clear indication that the Tamil Nadu (federal) model does not suit SL Tamils.
Heshan you wrote
March 9, 2011 • 12:32 am
Remember the pictures of the carts (attached to tractors) loaded with dead bodies of LTTE cadres – in a state of total undress – being slowly paraded through Anuradhapura town by the SLA, after the attack on the airforce base there? Why was the dead body of Prabhakaran rolled around in the mud and then photographed, again in a state of undress? On one forum called “DefenseWire”, I read that Gen. Jagath Jayasuriya shoved a hot poker in a certain anatomical region of Prabhakaran, while the latter was alive. So, it seems that the Sri Lankan Army has some kind of obsession with sadism. Destroying cemeteries is only the tip of the iceberg. I pity the people in the North and East who have to put up with the Army on a daily basis.
———————–
Thanks for your post
Yes I remember that barbaric act !!!
Sri Lanka Armed Forces paraded naked and badly mutilated bodies of the Tamils in the Buddhist “Holy” city to all to see !!
Buddhist Monks along with huge crowds of ordinary Sinhalese with their small children went to observe this bizarre barbaric display of the dead bodies.
There were as many people as one can see in a cricket match
These people have no human feeling when it comes to tamils.. they started this long before LTTE …so teh use of LTTE is just an excuse.
As you said it is the tip of iceberg unfortunately …barbaric stuff did to tamil people by singala army is much more sadic.
Tamilan
Well said !!
Yes, 62 years ago Tamil started peaceful protests for justice and equality. But they were brutally beaten or killed. Sri Lanka wants a modern day realization of an ancient myth that the island belongs to the Sinhalese only, in which the Tamil minority have a subordinate existence of a slave. Right now, the Sinhalese are encroaching on the Tamil Homelands in order to colonize them and the Tamils are forced to be beggars with no hope or future
Rubbish!
There are 3,000,000 Tamils currently living in SL. I’m 100% sure they will live tomorrow as well unlike the 20,000+ Sinhalese who were living in the Jaffna district in 1971 before the Vadukoddai resolution (1976).
If there is any desire to kill, etc. Tamil people, there is no way such a large number would survive 23 years of war.
Population percentage wise SL has the largest Tamil population percentage 15%+ in the world !!!
There is not a single district in SL without Tamils living there. But jaffna, Mulaitivu, Kilinochchi, Batticaloa districts have no Sinhalese today thanks to Tamil Elamists. jaffna, Mulaitivu and Kilinochchi districts have no Muslims today due to the same reason.
The SL leader is the first and only national leader to speak in Tamil at the UN. If there is any desire to destroy Tamil and Tamils, you would see different things.
Never assume that things cannot get any worse for Tamils. It certainly will if Tamils are once again fooled by the likes of LTTE to die for a (Tamil) nation that NEVER existed.
Agnos,”There are a lot of credible people on the ground to talk about the cemteries. It is for you to find them and listen to them. If you don’t know anyone, then perhaps you should listen to Aachcharya and Marisa.”
Neither Aachcharya nor Marisa have refuted Sarvananthan’s claim that the cemetery (at least in Kopay) had graves.
Additionally, nobody has addressed Sarvananthan’s point that desecrating enemies’ graves- like Mr Rajan Sathiyamoorthy- has been a traditional practice for the LTTE that had merited no outcry from anyone.
Desecration or demolition of cemeteries and/or monuments for the dead for any purpose whatsoever is wrong and demonstrates the barbarian mentality of the SL Military and of those who approved/ignored same.
No one will allow/approve the erection of military camps/headquarters in south sri lanka over/at sites of cremations or burials – it would be unthinkable.
Recently, the cremation site of the body of Parwathy Amma, mother of Prabakaran was desecrated by leaving dead dogs nearby and by running vehicles over the ashes.
World War II cemeteries in france and other countries are well preserved and are sites where veterans of the war occasionally meet to mourn and commemorate.
Justita, the German military cemeteries are mostly for the fallen of WW1. Most of the WW2 ones are smaller and were set up after WW2, by the Allies, who exhumed and reburied lots of German corpses that had been interned in local cemeteries and makeshift graveyards. None of these were built by the Nazis as propaganda monuments. There are several low-key monuments in Germany that I have visited in Bavaria and Rheinland-Pfalz, and these too were built after the war, and usually take a religious character and not a nationalistic or Nazi one. These (and the ones outside Germany) are maintained by the Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge, which is a voluntary organisation set up in 1919. If you visit them (here’s one in Holland: http://forum.multitool.org/index.php?topic=23301.0 ), you’ll note that there’s no bombastic Nazi architecture or symbolism; just simple Christian crosses. Hardly comparable to the Tiger ones, no?
On the hand, don’t you think both Buddhists and Hindus are less concerned with a body after the religious ceremonies of cremation, etc are done? We’ve all seen the half-cremated bodies in the Ganges, being eaten by vermin, and the burning bodies during the JVP era.
In contrast, many of Germany’s religious institutions in the ’30s and ’40s incorporated Nazi symbolism with their own. After Germany’s defeat, all symbols of the Nazi party were removed or destroyed by the Allies. Do you think this hatred of Nazism was also irrational?
And when the Allies left, the neo-Nazis were allowed (and are still allowed) to hold parades, using whatever Nazi symbols they wish. So what’s your point?
@Heshan:
Mein Gott, Heshan! Your ignorance is simply painful.
The Swastika is a banned symbol in modern Germany & Austria. It cannot be used for any political purposes whatsoever and may only be used for educational/scientific research purposes with permission etc. Even the Waffen SS flashes are verboten.
““Die politische Verwendung hakenkreuzförmiger Symbole ist in Deutschland, Österreich und weiteren Staaten seit 1945 verboten. Erlaubt ist in Deutschland eine Hakenkreuzdarstellung nach § 86 Absatz 3 StGB nur, wenn sie „der staatsbürgerlichen Aufklärung, der Abwehr verfassungswidriger Bestrebungen, der Kunst oder der Wissenschaft, der Forschung oder der Lehre, der Berichterstattung über Vorgänge des Zeitgeschehens oder der Geschichte oder ähnlichen Zwecken dient“. = Total Verboten
German neo-Nazis use all sorts of ruses to get around it including variants of crosses, circles etc. Even the acronym NSDAP is banned, so they use ‘Lonsdale’ (a UK clothing brand) t-shirts worn to display the letters ‘nsda’ to signify their adherence to neo-Nazism.
However, a Swastika being placed in a wastebin in not punishable. http://www.recht-gegen-rechts.de/symbole.html
Pay up to Groundviews for your continuing education.
Vishnuthillai:
Quote:
Thanks for your post
Yes I remember that barbaric act !!!
Sri Lanka Armed Forces paraded naked and badly mutilated bodies of the Tamils in the Buddhist “Holy” city to all to see !!
Buddhist Monks along with huge crowds of ordinary Sinhalese with their small children went to observe this bizarre barbaric display of the dead bodies.
There were as many people as one can see in a cricket match
I am still amazed that the Sri Lankan Government has not apologized for that barbaric act. Do you know what would happen if the Americans and NATO paraded naked bodies of Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq? There would be riots for months (remember the Muhammed cartoon riots?). People made such a fuss about Abu Grahib, even though the American Defense Minister, Donald Rumsfeld, personally apologized, and many of the soldiers involved were given long prison sentences after a thorough investigation. But Abu Grahib happens everyday in Sri Lanka! No one is punished – the incident is not even acknowledged by the relevant authorities. It’s a real shame.
Heshan
You have a good point that “Abu Grahib happens every day in Sri Lanka” I think, torture in Sri Lanka is worse than in Abu Grahib. Sri Lanka brutality and torture is another illustration of the exceptional collapse of the rule of law in the country. A mentally retarded, A. Mohan (25) was severely tortured on 15 February 2011. He was beaten , kicked all over his body and in the head. He end up in the Peradeniya Teaching Hospital with broken bones. The mentally disabled was tortured in the cruelest manner for what was, in fact, a minor matter that could have been easily resolved. There is no doubt in my mind this is all due to his mental illness.
This laughable incident and cruel torture that follows it is a too common occurrence in Sri Lanka , unfortunately. The torture victim went to a shop owned by Ranaweera which and asked for a bottle of Fanta (a soft drink). The shop owner gave him a bottle which Mohan drank before returning it to the shop owner. He remained at the shop talking with the owner and other customers. He then left the shop forgetting to pay the price for the drink. And tor this… poor retarded man tortured, beaten, kicked and humiliated by obscene , degraded language
Mango,
You have to read a bit more closely — look at 4th link and see if you can find the rape testimony.
You need to learn how to quote directly. When arguing in public venues, it’s considered good manners. Your 4th link is rather amusing – it is an interview with none other than spin maestro DJ. Of course it is not at all credible . That is the last person on earth who would admit an SL soldier’s rifle accidentally killed a pigeon flying in harm’s way, let alone a Tamil civilian. So his bias against the LTTE is an understatement. But even he does not claim that the LTTE raped anyone. His method of denial, however, is interesting:
SPIN MASTER: Secondly, let us define the issue of war crimes. Is the denial that they were committed, a bland assertion that no civilians were killed?
I have to say, the above line would put propaganda master Joseph Goebbels (the godfather of all such masters) to shame. Without DENYING that civilians were actually killed in the context of war crimes, DJ is suggesting that civilians were perhaps killed by some other means, thereby downplaying any notion of war crimes.
SPIN MASTER: Civilians are hit during almost every single strike by Predator and Raptor drones, but that is neither intentional nor the primary target, and decisions have been made that the strikes were not a disproportionate use of force in the circumstances.
The above is only partially true. It should also be put into context. Civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan are not asked to gather in “safe zones” and then intentionally targeted. Gothabaya Rajapakse is on record saying that even hospitals were legitimate targets, which by international norms is a war crime.
The prospect of civilian casualties when administering the coup de grace to a terrible enemy must be weighed against the civilian deaths that would result if that coup de grace were not administered and the terrorists lived on to regroup and re-launch operations. Every drone strike is fraught with such considerations.
No, that is not the intention of a drone strike. Drone strikes are usually based on carefully gathered intelligence, and they are usually employed to take out high-ranking Taliban and other insurgent leaders. The enemy will regroup regardless. A drone strike is not a coup de grace either. Saddam Hussein was caught in a hole in the ground. Prabhakaran surrendered. A drone strike has never delivered a coup de grace.
Those who sermonise on the need for a war crimes inquiry to restore international credibility, simply must pause to ask themselves why the person most qualified to do so, Judge CG Weeramantry, has so far chosen not to lend his voice to this slogan.
CG Weeramantry should answer that question for himself. One can only speculate as to what his reasons are.
Why has Cardinal Malcolm Ranjith who aired his critical dissent on ’56, and ’72 and recommended devolution at the LLRC, praised the country’s political leadership for ridding the country of terrorism and restoring peace, rather than joining the chorus insinuating that war crimes were committed and calling for an international investigation into war crimes allegations?
Ahhh, but did Cardinal Malcolm Ranjith actually use the word “terrorism?” And what happened to the devolution proposals that he recommended?
From what I have seen, the Channel 4 videos do not fall into that category. By contrast, what they do remind me of are the Tonkin Gulf incident (the North Vietnamese gunboats that supposedly ‘attacked’ the USS Turner Joy, but actually didn’t), the manufacture of consent for Kosovo and the Iraqi WMDs that weren’t.
Showing his true colors at last! One of the Channel 4 videos was reviewed by 3 renowned, independent firearms experts and determined to be authentic. I would presume that the opinion of these experts is more valid than 1960′s Vietnam War documentaries.
We are being set up.
The classic excuse.
A: As far as war crimes are concerned, I don’t think the UN has taken a balanced approach.
I don’t think the UN has taken a balanced approach either, but for different reasons. They should not have funded the IDP camps. They should have let S. Lanka deal with the humanitarian crisis which consisted of 300K displaced Tamil civilians, essentially homeless, and with no livelihood, at the mercy of a marauding army given a free license to abuse.
Now, back to you, Mango.
As for disembowelling, I’m afraid some of those victims whose bodies are covered in sheets were disembowelled by the LTTE squads.
LOL, that is not proof, my friend. If I say there is treasure at the bottom of the ocean, can you disprove me wrong?
p.s. You inability to accept the fact that Blacker’s proven you wrong so many times on the subjects you mention is commendable and odd.
I’m glad to see you maintain such a high opinion of Mr. Blacker. I would count both of you as two of Spin Master’s most loyal disciples, ready to follow him to Stalin’s Gulags, Castro’s tropical concentration camp paradise; perhaps everywhere, save his Swiss chalet, no doubt reserved for his rather attractive wife.
@ Heshan:
I guess you didn’t read far enough into the 4th link to read of rape & desecration. No matter, it wouldn’t be the first time you’ve missed the wood for the trees. Just search for the word “nailed”. You’ll of course continue to deny the desecrations and rapes committed by the LTTE. And not forgetting the disembowellings, to which you seem oddly attracted to.
Oh, one more thing. Here’s an even better example of LTTE-instigated desecration of an interred corpse.
“…the tigers did to former Tamil National Alliance election candidate Rajan Sathiyamoorthy in Batticaloa. …. He and his brother in law were shot dead by the mainstream LTTE while they were worshipping at the shrine in their home. …The tigers dig up the body and threw it elsewhere after setting fire. It was in a half-burnt state.”
http://tinyurl.com/6992f7s
The issue here is your completely bonkers assertion that the “The LTTE never abused dead bodies.” and “The LTTE never raped anyone.”
Dr DJ and his team’s crushing victory in Geneva against the ridiculous EU/UK inspired war-crimes drivel is another matter altogether. That you feel the need to comment on Dr DJ’s wife’s attractiveness (are you jealous of him?) is even more bizzare and Heshanesque.
Neither Blacker nor Dr DJ need me as an acolyte. They’re big enough to look after themselves.
“The above is only partially true. It should also be put into context. Civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan are not asked to gather in “safe zones” and then intentionally targeted. Gothabaya Rajapakse is on record saying that even hospitals were legitimate targets, which by international norms is a war crime.”
The context you really need to put this into is the fact that the Tigers intentionally forced civilians all the way across the Vanni and squeezed them into an area within the Tiger perimeter to intentionally cause them death and injury in order to win international intervention. They intentionally defended “safe zones” by placing artillery and other heavy weaponry in them, often alongside civilians and hospitals. They intentionally conscripted women, children, and the elderly and used them as slave labour building fortifications that were under attack, and sent them out with a couple of hours training to face tanks and battle-hardened infantry.
In contrast, the SL military never intentionally targeted civilians, and as you know, you are unable to provide any evidence that it did. Targeting a hospital is not a war crime if said hospital is being used for military purposes. The Geneva Conventions themselves say that a military force must take reasonable measures to avoid civilian casualties, thereby attesting to the fact that civilian casualties are often unavoidable.
“Drone strikes are usually based on carefully gathered intelligence, and they are usually employed to take out high-ranking Taliban and other insurgent leaders. The enemy will regroup regardless. A drone strike is not a coup de grace either. Saddam Hussein was caught in a hole in the ground. Prabhakaran surrendered. A drone strike has never delivered a coup de grace.”
Lol, a bit of American spin there, eh, Heshan? Yes, we’ve seen the “carefully gathered intelligence” that has resulted in Afghan weddings being targeted and civilians and journalists being machine-gunned by drones and manned aircraft. Was Karzai’s cousin killed as a result of this American “intelligence”?
The only reason that Saddam, Osama, etc haven’t been given the coup de grace by drone attack is because American “intelligence” couldn’t locate them. In contrast, we nailed Thamilchelvam’s skinny butt with an airstrike.
“I don’t think the UN has taken a balanced approach either, but for different reasons. They should not have funded the IDP camps. They should have let S. Lanka deal with the humanitarian crisis which consisted of 300K displaced Tamil civilians, essentially homeless, and with no livelihood, at the mercy of a marauding army given a free license to abuse.”
Hmm, your empathy for the Tamil people of the NE is heart-warming, Heshan; pretty similar to VP’s empathy for them when he used them as human shields in the hope their suffering would be loud enough for the world to notice. I think anyone who is sorry that the UN is helping the Tamils hasn’t any business accusing anyone else of human rights abuses.
[Edited out.]
This is the link to the above interview: http://transcurrents.com/tc/2010/12/war_crimes_allegations_and_the.html
Mango,
The Swastika is a banned symbol in modern Germany & Austria. It cannot be used for any political purposes whatsoever and may only be used for educational/scientific research purposes with permission etc. Even the Waffen SS flashes are verboten.
But Neo-Nazi demonstrations are NOT banned. As you yourself have admitted, there are many good approximations to the swastika which are not banned, such as the eagle. Also, swastika tattoos are not banned in Germany, except public displays. Also, it is only public displays of the swastika that are banned. You can hang a swastika in your home in Berlin, and that is not considered illegal, as per German law.
I guess you didn’t read far enough into the 4th link to read of rape & desecration.
You have yet to give an authentic, credible source that acknowledges the LTTE raped or desecrated a body. The comments section of “transcurrents” does not count as credible. I can go to the comments section of “transcurrents” right now and write that horses can fly. I presume you have been to school and have some idea as to what constitutes credible proof in an argument.
Just search for the word “nailed”
The burden of proof is on you , my friend. Earlier you claimed that such LTTE atrocities are “well-documented.” If its “well-documented”, you shouldn’t have to tell others to “just search”, unless of course, you yourself have difficulty undertaking such a search, which would imply that the said atrocities are non-existent.
You’ll of course continue to deny the desecrations and rapes committed by the LTTE.
I am still waiting for you to present your “well-documented” evidence.
And not forgetting the disembowellings, to which you seem oddly attracted to…
You mean the non-existent disemboweling?
http://tinyurl.com/6992f7s
DBS Jeyarajah is not a valid source. He never reveals his sources. He also has a certain bias against the LTTE, most likely because LTTE-supporters broke his leg while he was in Canada. It is no coincidence that one of the most prolific contributors to “transcurrents” is none other than SPIN DOCTOR, who is yet another individual with an axe to grind against the LTTE.
Dr DJ and his team’s crushing victory in Geneva against the ridiculous EU/UK inspired war-crimes drivel is another matter altogether.
You mean the victory that consisted of getting all the failed nations to support DJ’s pro-Sri Lanka resolution, as well as getting the support of Security Council members Russia and China – two more failed nations desperate to hide their own dirty laundry. Well, if you consider that a victory, so be it. The funny thing is that DJ is talking about “pro-democracy surges in the Arab world” when in fact, the biggest obstacle to NATO implementing a no-fly zone over Libya (which would help the anti-Gaddafi rebels) is the fact that China and Russia would veto any such resolution. Of course, DJ will not candidly state that China and Russia are the two biggest obstacles to Libyan democracy – after Gaddafi – because China and Russia are the best friends of all the failed states, not least of all S. Lanka. As I said elsewhere, the SPIN DOCTOR has got you by the tail – unless you can see deeper into the issue, you’ll fall for his cheap theatrics.
Neither Blacker nor Dr DJ need me as an acolyte.
Birds of a common feather flock together.
“But Neo-Nazi demonstrations are NOT banned. As you yourself have admitted, there are many good approximations to the swastika which are not banned, such as the eagle. Also, swastika tattoos are not banned in Germany, except public displays. Also, it is only public displays of the swastika that are banned. You can hang a swastika in your home in Berlin, and that is not considered illegal, as per German law.”
Why should neo-Nazism be banned in Germany? These groups haven’t done anything wrong. When they’ve committed criminal acts, they’ve been taken to task. What is banned is the wartime Nazi party, its symbolism and its core ideology. Yes, you can have a swastika on your bedroom wall, or tattooed on your backside, but if you take that flag outside, display your tat in public, or try to profess the original Nazi ideology, including the Aryan superiority concept, Holocaust denial, etc, you’ll be in trouble.
The eagle is a symbol of German nationalism, not Nazism, and isn’t banned.
Similarly, the GoSL’s actions regarding Tiger monuments has been a targeting of that organisation’s symbolism, ideology, etc, similar to the Allied and German targeting of the Nazi party. Tamil rights and Tamil nationalism is separate from this.
Ach, du Lieber Gott, Heshan!
Your ignorance is even more pitiful. Who said Neo-Nazi demos are banned in Germany? Even the German Eagle can be banned. e.g. the Imperial War Flag (1871-1922) which incorporates the Eagle can be banned if the flag’s used in situations likely in cause breaches of the peace.
Even symbols appropriated by the right wing, previously without any connection to the Swastika are banned. e.g. the Celtic Cross. I presumed (wrongly) that someone as ‘educated’ as you would understand German. I was wrong.
Your original assertion of “the neo-Nazis were allowed (and are still allowed) to hold parades, using whatever Nazi symbols they wish”is simply wrong.
If you refuse to believe the testimony of credible commentaries, that’s your problem and not mine. Tell us what you find under the search string “nailed”. Good luck with your attempt to paint the LTTE as heavily armed social workers.
DBS Jeyaraj can now now stop writing because he’s been outed as ‘non-credible’ by a mono-lingual, anonymous internet commenter called Heshan.
Whichever way you spin it, Geneva 2009 was a victory for SL diplomacy against the massed ranks of the UK/EU human rights overseers. Russia and China as ‘failed nations’. With that level of penetrating insight into geo-political realities, it’ll only be a matter of time before Chatham House offers you an honorary professorship.
Prof Heshan
“ He also has a certain bias against the LTTE, most likely because LTTE-supporters broke his leg while he was in Canada.”
Would you agree that you have a certain bias against non-Anglicans, even though none of them had broken your leg?
Why should neo-Nazism be banned in Germany? These groups haven’t done anything wrong.
Even Neo-Nazis can protest freely in Germany and elsewhere in Europe, but pro-Eelam demonstrations are banned in SL. It shows once and for all that SL is not a democracy.
What is banned is the wartime Nazi party, its symbolism and its core ideology.
Wartime Nazi Party? Let’s see, the war ended in 1945, so that age would put the average of any surviving Nazis between 70-80. Unlike what GOSL did to Prabhakaran’s elderly parents – imprisoning them – the German government is not going after elderly Nazis.
You cannot completely ban an ideology.
“Even Neo-Nazis can protest freely in Germany and elsewhere in Europe, but pro-Eelam demonstrations are banned in SL. It shows once and for all that SL is not a democracy.”
The call for Eelam is an ideology, a treasonous one, and that’s why it’s banned. As I already explained to you, if neo-Nazis call for a genocide of the Jews, deny the Holocaust, etc, they’ll be arrested and prosecuted. It’s not the parade that’s the problem, but what it’s about. Despite all this, there were no neo-Nazi parades in 1947; it took decades for them to emerge. I doubt that the Allies would have tolerated them during the occupation lol.
“Wartime Nazi Party? Let’s see, the war ended in 1945, so that age would put the average of any surviving Nazis between 70-80. Unlike what GOSL did to Prabhakaran’s elderly parents – imprisoning them – the German government is not going after elderly Nazis.”
Since when was a party constrained to membership of a certain era? None of the UNPers or SLFPers of the ’50s are around, and yet the UNP exists. VP’s parents were not “imprisoned” as you suggest because they were his parents. They were IDPs like all the others. And FYI the German government has prosecuted many elderly Nazis who were guilty of war crimes.
“You cannot completely ban an ideology.”
Lol, no, you’d have to have mind control for that. What you can do is wipe out all public sign of it.
Mango,
Your original assertion of “the neo-Nazis were allowed (and are still allowed) to hold parades, using whatever Nazi symbols they wish”is simply wrong.
Yes, I was wrong on that point. Unlike you I can admit mistakes. However, while I was wrong on 1 point, you have been proven wrong on at least 20 points.
If you refuse to believe the testimony of credible commentaries,
I used to post on transcurrents, until DBS Jeyarajah started playing dirty and wrote comments on under my pseudonym to make me look bad (yes, I can prove this, although I will not). In any event, I know some of the regular people who post “commentaries” there: (1) Dayan Jayatilleke (GOSL spin doctor), (2) David Blacker, (3) Devinda Fernando (the founder of the rubbish pornographic politico-satire website tamilnet.tv), and (4) David Jayaraj himself. It is interesting that David Jayaraj himself posts regularly in the commentaries. What this does is destroy any semblance of unbiasedness, as per journalistic ethos. A journalist/editor is not supposed to put something in the public domain, just so he can bash readers who disagree (even though an occasional clarification may be okay), but that is exactly what DBSJ does – he bashes many of the pro-LTTE people in the commentaries section. This undermines the stated objective of “transcurrents”, which is to promote dialogue between different communities.
Tell us what you find under the search string “nailed”. Good luck with your attempt to paint the LTTE as heavily armed social workers.
I am still waiting for your “well-documented” evidence.
Whichever way you spin it, Geneva 2009 was a victory for SL diplomacy against the massed ranks of the UK/EU human rights overseers.
Is that why GOSL sent 6 or 7 delegations to the UK to beg for GSP+ rights. Trade union representatives, Buddhist monks, Christian priests, politicians,…. GOSL should have just sent you instead – the deal, or there lack of, would have been sealed in 15 minutes, for all time to come, particularly given your rather loose association of “human rights” with “overseer.”
Russia and China as ‘failed nations’. With that level of penetrating insight into geo-political realities,
Indeed – unlike Dr.Spin, I have no love for Marxism, so you won’t see me carefully ignoring Russia’s atrocities in Chechnya while writing volumes about predator drone “atrocities” in Iraq and Afghanistan. Similarly, I am fully aware of China’s atrocities in Tibet. No doubt “Spinatilleke” is also aware of such atrocities, but a member of the civil service condemning SL’s number one benefactor would not look good on the PR scene.
@ Heshan,
Sorry to hear about your troubles with DBS. But I find it incredible that DBS would need to resort to “pseudonymous” attacks “…to make me look bad”, when you’re capable of doing that job all by yourself!
It’s apparent that you’re deeply envious of Dr DJ’s many successes in the personal and professional fields. Envy is one of the Seven Deadly Sins, so I hope you’ll be repenting soon.
I also understand that in Christian theology, Christ welcomes any repentant sinner. Better get in line, then.
RE: “Yes, I was wrong on that point. Unlike you I can admit mistakes.”
Well done Heshan! There might be some hope for you yet!
Now if only you had the courage to similarly admit to being wrong on a raft of other issues, I think you will be deserving of some serious kudos. Any scientific community values the integrity to admit you’re wrong.
SD,
Which issue are you referring to? If you mean men in frilly dresses, I did post some relevant CDC data regarding the impact of such behavior, which for whatever reason this website did not deem worthy of publication:
http://www.dakotavoice.com/2010/03/new-cdc-report-hiv-rate-44-times-higher-among-homosexuals/
Your problem is that (1) you either don’t read (I posted similar data as the above on this forum a long time ago) or (2) you read but fail to understand and yet pretend to understand. As a result of (2), you then blindly follow the dictums of people like DJ and Richard Dawkins, intellectuals who have fallen by the wayside and promote esoteric theories that appeal to who weaker minds that can’t (or refuse) to coherently evaluate alternatives (e.g. you). My advice to you: try to think for yourself, or, if you do buy someone else’s theory, verify it for yourself – you might be able to see a little deeper into issues.
Heshan, SD et al, please try to come back to the topic of the post, which has nothing at all to do with sexual orientation. We have at Groundviews to manage a careful balance between free flowing discussion and those that are pegged to the critical analysis of what is posted on the site. As with many recent threads, all of you seem to be entirely consumed by proving oneself right and the other wrong, a mentality that leads very quickly to name-calling, a baser level of engagement and a conversational space others fear to enter because it is commandeered by a few. Kindly desist. Thank you.
I don’t understand all this comparison between LTTE, Hitler, and Nazism.
Prabhakaran, who led a guerrila outfit initially for a separate state based on the 1977 Vaddukodai resolution for self-determination, I believe was inspired by Subhas Chandra Bose, the man who led a military movement against the British occupation. The means through which they fought could be criticized but the parallel to Nazism is rather ridiculous – as far as I know, self-determination is a right of the people. Unlike the Sri Lankan counterpart, although the British did ban those promoting independence/Indian sovereignty, they did not go to the extreme to crush the resistance.
Nazism was based on some racist aryan myth and the Jews who did not fit this description were killed off. In any case, it has similarity with the Mahavamsa mindset that claims Sinhalese as aryans and the sole owners of the island, while asserting that Tamils were either invaders or recently imported by Dutch and British to work in plantations. The underlying implication is that they can live there but cannot demand anything further. The Sri Lankan state could have forged unity well before Praba was even born but both the parties chose to do ethnic bidding and the Left chose to tag along, ending up in a massacre of thousands in Vanni. One cannot blame Rajapakse alone for the decline of democracy, all of this was somehow predicted before.
I have highlighted how racism in politics dominated the north ever since 1947 at general elections held in 1947, 1952, 1956, 1960, 1960, 1965, 1970, 1977, 1989, 2000, 2001, 2004 and 2010. Tamil only race based political parties won in the north at almost all elections.
In addition since 1967 Dravida race based parties have always won in Tamil Nadu.
However, Tamil/Dravida racism/castism and ASSOCIATED violence go much earlier in history!
Look what I found from a very detailed Tamil historical account.
1847: Arumuka Navalar (1822-1879) leaves Jaffna Central School because of the admission of a low-caste (Nalavar) boy by Peter Percival.
1871: Caste clashes between Vellalar, dhobies and barbers in Mavittappuram, because the dhobies refuse to wash the barbers’ clothes. Vellalar are blamed for the conflagration.
1876: During a famine in Jaffna Arumuka Navalar helps with collecting and distributing food to starving Vellalar only.
1907: In an article for a British publication P. Arunachalam defends the caste system as benevolent and necesssary.
1908/ 1910/ 1912: During ‘Durbars of Tamil Chiefs in Jaffna and Batticaloa’ the British governor is told that the inhabitants of the two districts are not interested in the ‘Settlement of the Vanni’, though the latter was of the opinion that the Tamils had the right of first refusal in this area. Tamils do not want to go into the Vanni because of the unhealthy climate, but they do not want to admit Sinhalese or Indians there either.
1923 (16th Sept.): P. Arunachalam founds the Ceylon Tamil League (Ilankai Tamil makkal cankam) to ssafeguard Tamil Culture in the Tamilakam (Arunachalam’s speech in the ‘Morning Leader’ of that date). In a caste revolt in Sutumalai Vellalar attack Paramba who had hired drummers for a funeral.
1929: Catholics from Mannar complain to the Donoughmore Commission about caste repression and injustice and demand to be acknowledged as an ‘ethnic’ minority. Protestant Tamils denounce the move.
But the examples you’ve shown are for caste, not race
And you were unable to show that Tamils voted for parties with racist policies, since you were unable to name any racist policies of those Tamil parties; you weren’t even able to prove that Tamils consistently voted for Tamil parties. In contrast, the Sinhalese of the late ’40s and ’50s voted for majority-Sinhalese parties with extremely racist policies such as Sinhala Only and colonisation.
DB,
Riots are insane acts. They are not logical. So what matters is not the basis of riot (race, caste). There is NO base! What matters is the INTENT to riot over petty things like caste,race, colour or whatever BS.
That has been AMPLY displayed by these racists even in the 19th century!!!
But the moment thieir insane violence was directed against the Sinhalese and Muslims, they were severely beaten.
I thought until recently the first such riot was the 1915 riot. Not so.
I have proved Tamil racist politics since 1947 over and over again DB. Anyway here it is again.
Political party names are no accidents, especially parties that get sizable number of votes.
e.g. United national Party (at least on paper) thrives to create a united, nation-wide political force. This is true to great extent compared to many other parties.
e.g. Communist party strives (at least on paper) to create a communist society
e.g. Tamil …..party strivesd (at least on paper) to promote Tamil racism, nothing else. Otherwise they call call it “peoples”.
e.g. Sinhala …… party strives (at least on papaer) to promote Sinhala racism.
ACTC – all ceylon TAMIL congress
ITAK – ilankai TAMIL arasu kachchi
TULF – TAMIL united liberation front
TNA – TAMIL national alliance
these parties are TAMIL ONLY in policy, membership, MPs, name.
jaffna district general election results.
1947 – ACTC
1952 – ITAK, ACTC
1956 – ITAK
1960 – ITAK,ACTC
1960 – ITAK,ACTC
1965 – ITAK,ACTC
1970 – ITAK, ACTC
1977 – TULF
1989 – TULF (war marred the election)
2000 – TULF (war marred the election)
2001 – TNA
2004 – TNA
2010 – TNA
NO WHERE OUTSIDE the NE did race based parties like above win. TAMIL NADU also show similar results since 1967.
These parties talk ONLY about Tamils. Some of their most screamed racist rubbish include.
1. TAMIL (only) homelands
2. TAMIL (only) grievences
3. TAMIL (only) Elam
4. TAMIL (only) aspirations
5. TAMIL (only) self-determiniation
6. TAMIL (only) soverignty
7. TAMIL (only) nationality
8. TAMIL (only) “arasu”
“Riots are insane acts. They are not logical. So what matters is not the basis of riot (race, caste). There is NO base! What matters is the INTENT to riot over petty things like caste,race, colour or whatever BS.”
The plea of insanity absolves the perpetrator from guilt in lieu of his not being responsible for his actions. In the context of the Sinhalese pogroms against the Tamils that happened regularly until the war, this is a flawed defence. These riots were planned and instigated, never prevented by the authorities, and never subsequently investigated nor anyone charged or prosecuted. Race and caste are certainly petty, which is why the question remains why consecutive Sinhalese-majority GoSLs have campaigned and governed on platforms of racism, and why they enacted racist laws such as Sinhala Only. The question also remains why, if you think racism is petty, why you support racist laws such as the above, and wish to prevent Tamils from gaining equal position with the Sinhalese, nor allowing Tamil parties to also be elected alongside Sinhalese parties.
“That has been AMPLY displayed by these racists even in the 19th century!!!”
But I’m still waiting for you to show any evidence of Tamil political racism prior to 1956, never mind the 19th century. When are you planning on providing this?
“But the moment thieir insane violence was directed against the Sinhalese and Muslims, they were severely beaten.”
So why was only the insane violence against the Sinhalese and Muslims by the Tamils beaten, and not the insane violence by the Sinhalese against the Tamils, or the insane violence by the Sinhalese against the Muslims? Isn’t this further proof of Sinhalese racism?
“I thought until recently the first such riot was the 1915 riot. Not so.”
Really? Which race riots are you referring to pre-1915?
“I have proved Tamil racist politics since 1947 over and over again DB. Anyway here it is again.”
But you haven’t
and that’s the point. When your so-called “proof” is challenged, you run away to another discussion.
“Political party names are no accidents, especially parties that get sizable number of votes.”
A party name in itself isn’t a sign of racism. If that were so, the SSC would be a racist club, as would the DBU and others. The YMCA and YMBA would be illegal, and so forth. Racism in the political context is the exclusion of certain races from a political stream or area. Is there any part of the manifesto of the TULF, TNA, EPDP, or other Tamil party that says non-Tamils cannot be members, or cannot participate in any part of the activities of those parties? Why, even DJ, a staunch supporter of the current administration, and a Sinhalese, was once a member of Vartharaja Perumal’s NE Provincial administration.
“e.g. United national Party (at least on paper) thrives to create a united, nation-wide political force. This is true to great extent compared to many other parties.”
Whereas in practice, the UNP was and is, mostly Sinhalese, and has in the past supported racist policies and instigated and organised race riots against the Tamils.
e.g. Communist party strives (at least on paper) to create a communist society”
Communism is an ideology devoid of any racial ethos, that’s true; however, certain SL communist parties — like the JVP — have been extremely racist to the Tamils, to the point where today they, and their offshoots such as the NFF are considered more right wing than left.
“e.g. Tamil …..party strivesd (at least on paper) to promote Tamil racism, nothing else. Otherwise they call call it “peoples”.”
Really? Can you show any evidence of the promotion of such racism by Tamil political parties?
“e.g. Sinhala …… party strives (at least on papaer) to promote Sinhala racism.”
You mean like the SLFP enacting Sinhala Only and instigating anti-Tamil riots, and the UNP opposing the BC Pact and organising anti-Tamil riots?
“ACTC – all ceylon TAMIL congress ITAK – ilankai TAMIL arasu kachchi blah blah”
Please see my earlier comment on the names of parties.
“these parties are TAMIL ONLY in policy, membership, MPs, name.”
But in fact, these parties are Tamil only in name. Their membership is open to all, and their policies are not racist.
“jaffna district general election results blah blah””
But it has already been explained to you that Tamils voted for Tamil parties because the Sinhalese parties were enacting policies that were detrimental to them. In contrast, Sinhalese who weren’t persecuted by Tamils also voted for Sinhalese parties.
“NO WHERE OUTSIDE the NE did race based parties like above win. TAMIL NADU also show similar results since 1967.”
But the SLFP which campaigned for and enacted racist policies won. So did the UNP. In contrast, the Tamil parties never campaigned for any racist policies.
“These parties talk ONLY about Tamils. Some of their most screamed racist rubbish include.”
Since it was mostly Tamils who were the victims of Sinhalese racism, why shouldn’t Tamil parties therefore take up these Tamil rights?
“1. TAMIL (only) homelands”
Where have Tamil political parties called for exclusive Tamil homelands?
“2. TAMIL (only) grievences”
Where have Tamil political parties claimed that grievances were only against Tamils? Rather, the 50-50 call was for equal representation for all minorities.
“3. TAMIL (only) Elam”
Can you show any such call for a Tamil-only Eelam, except by the Tigers?
“4. TAMIL (only) aspirations”,/em>
See my answer to number 2.
“5. TAMIL (only) self-determiniation”
As above.
“6. TAMIL (only) soverignty”,/em>
Same as above.
“7. TAMIL (only) nationality”
Ditto as above.
“8. TAMIL (only) “arasu””“,/em>”
As above.
So you see there aren’t any “onlys” in these issues, TT
Are you unable to defend your argument without lying?
I do hope you will stick to this thread this time without fleeing as usual
“No, the above is a gross distortion of the reality. As I said, you simply cannot ban an ideology. There are more than 10K Neo-Nazi websites on the Internet, including ones with servers based in Germany , that deny the Holocaust, call for the extermination of the Jews, proudly display the swastika, etc. In fact, Youtube does all of the above, even though its not a Neo-Nazi website, you’ll still find plenty of Holocaust denying Neo-Nazis putting up videos of Waffen SS songs. This is also why destroying LTTE memorials is silly; the LTTE will still be commemorated, all it takes is one Facebook page!”
First of all, many of these websites are run by anonymous people, and the German servers are constantly targeted so that these sites are forced to shut down, move their content, or reopen under different names. Germany does what it can, but obviously neo-Nazism isn’t as high on their priority list as say child porn. And short of turning the net into a fully policed medium, there’s no real way of stamping even that out. There is an ongoing debate in Germany over internet use to spread hatred and racism; and the argument for allowing it is that a website isn’t the same as marching down main street; it’s more like having a gathering in your home and opening it to outsiders. Those who oppose it say that it’s still a public space and should be subject to German laws. Either way, since a website cannot offend anyone unless they choose to visit, unlike a parade, it’s unlikely that these site owners will be targeted as hard as flag-wavers.
All of this is happening over 60 years after WW2, and time heals many things. None of the things tolerated today would have been tolerated even 20 years ago. When I first visited Germany in 1997, you wouldn’t see many books on the Nazis or the Waffen-SS in mainstream bookshops, but today they’re everywhere, including copies of Mein Kampf.
In the context of the Tigers, I don’t think the GoSL gives a toss about a Facebook site or a poem or anything of that nature, especially since internet use is so limited in SL, particularly in the NE. And there’s a big difference in impact on the psyche between an obscure web page and an actual twenty-foot-tall memorial in the middle of a town.
An ideology can certainly be banned, but my point was that you cannot stop people thinking about it unless you have mind control. You can stop people spreading the word, however, and that’s what Germany and SL are doing.
“No, they were imprisoned . Even your pal DBSJ admits this”
To be imprisoned, you must be in a prison, and the IDP camps weren’t prisons; however, my point wasn’t about whether they were held, but whether they were held because they were VP’s parents. Clearly they weren’t given any special treatment one way or the other. Many IDPs who had places to go were still not allowed to leave.
“That is again an exaggeration. It only prosecuted prominent Nazi’s, under duress from the Wiesanthal Center, a Jewish organization based outside of Germany that has made it a goal to prosecute.”
Really? Can you show that it was only under duress that Germany prosecuted Nazis in the last thirty years? The Weisenthal Centre categorises countries from A to X in accordance with each country’s willingness and ability to prosecute Nazis without external pressure, ranging from ” a proactive stance on the issue” to total lack of interest in the issue. Germany is classed as A (along with the US). Most of the countries classed as X (“not taking any action whatsoever”) are in eastern Europe and South America. Slightly above this is the F1 and F2 classes which are categorised as “countries which refuse in principle to investigate, let alone prosecute” (Norway, Sweden, and Syria) and countries “whose efforts (or lack thereof) have resulted in complete failure [to investigate or prosecute]” (Australia, Canada, Estonia, Hungary, Lithuania, Ukraine). You can read more here: http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=lsKWLbPJLnF&b=4441467&ct=8180041
Now I’m sure, Heshan, that you will wish to examine the minutae of this and argue endlessly about whether a 60-year-old is elderly, whether it was a prosecution, whether it was actually Germans who prosecuted and not east European Jews and so forth; but rest assured, Germany has of its own volition prosecuted and convicted many elderly Nazis over the years, and if the numbers have reduced, it’s because the old farts are dying off on their own. Let’s just take it that you were mistaken as usual and move on.
David,
You said, “There are more than 10K Neo-Nazi websites on the Internet, including ones with servers based in Germany , that deny the Holocaust…” Well my friend, in Sri Lanka we have millions of people who deny that over 20,000 Tamil civilians were killed in the ‘No Fire Zone’ during the last days of the war, very and conveniently believe the ‘Zero Casualties’ tall story!
ps. got anything to say about the desecration of the grave of Prabahakaran’s mother?
“David, You said, “There are more than 10K Neo-Nazi websites on the Internet, including ones with servers based in Germany , that deny the Holocaust…””
Are you sure I said that?
“Well my friend, in Sri Lanka we have millions of people who deny that over 20,000 Tamil civilians were killed in the ‘No Fire Zone’ during the last days of the war, very and conveniently believe the ‘Zero Casualties’ tall story!”
Oh, of course, people believe what is convenient. There are millions for instance who choose to ignore the fact that it was the self-proclaimed protectors of the Tamil people that forced those 20,000 (or is it 50,000 or 40,000; I forget, cos the figure seems to change with the intensity of the debate) into a battle zone.
“ps. got anything to say about the desecration of the grave of Prabahakaran’s mother?”
I wasn’t aware that VP’s mother had a grave. Where is this grave?
As I already explained to you, if neo-Nazis call for a genocide of the Jews, deny the Holocaust, etc, they’ll be arrested and prosecuted.
No, the above is a gross distortion of the reality. As I said, you simply cannot ban an ideology. There are more than 10K Neo-Nazi websites on the Internet, including ones with servers based in Germany , that deny the Holocaust, call for the extermination of the Jews, proudly display the swastika, etc. In fact, Youtube does all of the above, even though its not a Neo-Nazi website, you’ll still find plenty of Holocaust denying Neo-Nazis putting up videos of Waffen SS songs. This is also why destroying LTTE memorials is silly; the LTTE will still be commemorated, all it takes is one Facebook page!
VP’s parents were not “imprisoned” as you suggest because they were his parents. They were IDPs like all the others.
No, they were imprisoned . Even your pal DBSJ admits this:
There were many relatives who were ready to look after the old couple.
The daughter Vinodini in Canada was also prepared to get her parents down to Toronto.
Protective Custody
The Rajapakse regime would not countenance these offers.
Stating that Prabhakaran’s parents were placed under protective custody for their own safety the Govt refused to release them.
Access was denied to relatives, family members, well-wishers and concerned human rights activists.
http://dbsjeyaraj.com/dbsj/archives/1295
Obviously, “protective custody” is a misnomer, considering that no one was allowed to visit.
And FYI the German government has prosecuted many elderly Nazis who were guilty of war crimes.
That is again an exaggeration. It only prosecuted prominent Nazi’s, under duress from the Wiesanthal Center, a Jewish organization based outside of Germany that has made it a goal to prosecute.
@Heshan:
Another terminological inexactitude: “…the German government is not going after elderly Nazis.”
The German government successfully prosecuted and imprisoned many elderly Nazis. A typical example is SS-Oberscharführer Josef Schwammberger who was extradited from Argentina and prosecuted in Stuttgart in 1992 to life imprisonment. He died in prison in 2004. Prosecutions were inconsistently pursued, but they happened on a regular basis.
Ebay Germany, whose servers are (obviously) based in Germany and is thus subject to German Law forbids the sale of Nazi or associated memorabilia. http://pages.ebay.de/help/policies/nazi.html
The key word here is “verharmlosen”. i.e. anything that downplays extremist ideology. A pretty wide term, no? So it is perfectly legitimate for GoSL to destroy LTTE memorials. But even Gota won’t be able to ban internet or Facebook eelamists.
Why don’t we have an empirical test? I’ll arrange for you to visit Germany, set up some neo-Nazi sites, promote Holocaust denial, go on the street with neo-Nazi signs and slogans. Let’s then see how long it takes before some heavies from Verfassungsschutz turn up and arrest you.
Heshan,
“This is also why destroying LTTE memorials is silly; the LTTE will still be commemorated, all it takes is one Facebook page!”
Yes, but it has no relevance on ground. Remember one presidential election candidate beat the other in facebook? He lost on ground!!
You can have any LTTE, Tamil Elam memorial, nation, aspirations, etc, ANYWHERE in the world as long as they are NOT in SL or India.
“VP’s parents were not “imprisoned” as you suggest because they were his parents. They were IDPs like all the others.
No, they were imprisoned.”
They were in Malaysia. Why didn’t their daughter take them from Malaysia? How long were they shuttling from SL, Tamil Nadu and Malaysia, from place to place? What was she doing?
Then they wanted to go to India. But India refused them entry. At least then their daughter should have taken them in. She didn’t. Then SL provided them a place to stay, FREE medical facilities, etc.
Similarly govt allowed VP’s son and daughter to study at taxpayers’ expense. They were allowed to sit for GCE A/L exam. One was even selected to university under the standardisation system!!
As you know, thanks to standardisation, Tamils can go to university with LOWER marks than Sinhalese. Kilinochchi, Mulaitivu have the LOWEST cut off marks in the country. Only Tamils live in these districts!!
The bottom line is that the LTTE monuments are already destroyed and there is no way that anyone can rebuild them, however much you cry about it! Lanka moves forward leaving behind those who are not awakened to reality. You can wait for the next Eelam war, and think that you will win ultimately, but that’s not the reality. You are not only fooling yourself but insulting the intellect of others as well!
[Edited out]
[Dear Heshan and Mango, please address the topic of the article in your discussion. Thank you. GV.]
In any event, I repeat my earlier assertion: you cannot ban an ideology. An ideology need not have any physical manifestation. The fallen LTTE members have friends/family on many different continents. These people long ago erected monuments in their minds . They will praise the LTTE in the form of poems, works of art, songs, etc. for many generations to come.
I doubt the GoSl cares about monuments of the mind
Dear GV,
Apologies for being sidetracked. Will try to stay on topic.
Correction: extradited (elderly) Nazis.
But there’s no special political system known as the “Tamil Nadu Federal Model”, is there? There are only federal systems of varying practice. If SL Tamils didn’t like TN, whatever the reason it wasn’t federalism, since many of them moved on to federal countries like Germany, the US, and Canada. Therefore, it’s more likely that they didn’t like TN or India. Can’t be their homeland then, can it?
DB,
The two federal models are different.
In Germany, etc. state boudaries don’t follow ethnic demoracations as in India.
They were not seeking homelands when they left to Europe DB.
They were thinking of SURVIVAL!!
There is a Tamil proverb – Thirai kadal odiyum thiraviam thedu. It means, “cross the seas and grab the fortunes”. Homelands don’t matter in this case.
Dear Tamil Elam supporting friends in SL, thirai kadal odiyum thiraviam thedu.
“The two federal models are different. In Germany, etc. state boudaries don’t follow ethnic demoracations as in India.”
Well first of all, in Canada, federation does follow language demarcations — English/French. And in Germany, while there is no clear cut ethnic or language demarcation visible to outsiders at first glance, many of the German states such as Bavaria, Baden-Wurtemberg, Saarland, etc consider themselves distinct in culture and dialect, and have attempted to secede several times. The UK, too is divided according to ethnicity — Scotland, Wales, etc.
Second, even if what you say is correct, why wouldn’t an ethnically distinct federal system not suit Tamils, since you claim that they want a mono-ethnic homeland?
“They were not seeking homelands when they left to Europe DB.
They were thinking of SURVIVAL!! There is a Tamil proverb – Thirai kadal odiyum thiraviam thedu. It means, “cross the seas and grab the fortunes”. Homelands don’t matter in this case.”
Then why did you earlier say “A clear indication that the Tamil Nadu (federal) model does not suit SL Tamils”? If survival was their sole motive, federal or other systems would be irrelevant. On the other hand, if refugee Tamils preferred the more affluent west to Third World India, doesn’t that indicate that homelands, separation, etc, are not as important to Tamils in comparison to other issues? And doesn’t that suggest the inaccuracy of your previous assertion that Tamil voting patterns indicate their racism; rather that they were voting for policies that would uplift their everyday lives?
“Dear Tamil Elam supporting friends in SL, thirai kadal odiyum thiraviam thedu.”
Are you suggesting that if the Tamils don’t cross the seas and seize their fortunes, their survival here in SL might be threatened again as it was in the past?
“There are no German secret service agents all over the world, hunting for prominent ex-Nazis. Name a single prominent ex-Nazi captured solely by the Germans and you may have a case. Even Mango’s example, Schwammberger, was captured through the efforts of the Wiesenthal center.”
Lol, and off go the wheeled goalposts, racing down the field, goalkeeper Heshan pushing frantically as Blacker’s strike comes curling in and he SCOOOOOOOOOORES!!!
The question wasn’t whether Germany has rounded up Nazis living abroad, Heshan, or whether they’re interested in sending their secret service operatives after them; the Israelis and various Jewish organisations are certainly doing that. My challenge was to your assertion that Germany isn’t prosecuting elderly Nazi war criminals. The fact is they have done so, many times. Why don’t you just accept that you were wrong again, and we’ll move on.
“The ranking system of the latter you mentioned is irrelevant.”
How is a ranking from the primary anti-Nazi NGO that classifies Germany as “proactive” in investigation and prosecution (a fact you dispute but cannot disprove), the highest possible classification in fact, shared only by one other country — the US — be irrelevant in a discussion about Germany’s proclivity to investigate and prosecute Nazis?
“This is all very different from SL, where GOSL rounded up all the LTTE and put them in camps, and destroyed every LTTE memorial, including their graves.”
If it’s so different, why is it that those who oppose the destruction of the graves (including you) constantly compare it to the Allied treatment of the Nazi organisation? Didn’t the Allies also round up all the Nazis and put them in camps, and destroy every Nazi symbol?
“GOSL cannot stand the sight of LTTE markers – destroying the graves is not the beginning but the continuation of a long-standing process to suppress all aspects of Tamil nationalism with State resources.”
Any sane person wouldn’t be able to stand LTTE symbolism either, just as most sane people can’t stand Nazi symbolism. Certainly, the state of SL is opposed to Tamil nationalism, just as any state would be opposed to a nationalist movement that that threatens the integrity of its territory.
“Note to Groundviews: I have shown how ex-Nazis are treated better than ex-LTTE, by their respective governments. Desecration of graves is only one aspect of this.”
This isn’t a courtroom, Heshan, get a grip
However, do you think that executing thousands of ex-Nazis on the gallows or by firing squad, using them as slave labour for years after the war, allowing upto 71,000 to starve or die of exposure, etc, is better treatment than the rehabilitation centres the GoSL has set up to train ex-Tigers for reintegration into society?
Blacker,
Can you show that it was only under duress that Germany prosecuted Nazis in the last thirty years?
There are no German secret service agents all over the world, hunting for prominent ex-Nazis. Name a single prominent ex-Nazi captured solely by the Germans and you may have a case. Even Mango’s example, Schwammberger, was captured through the efforts of the Wiesenthal center. The ranking system of the latter you mentioned is irrelevant. This is all very different from SL, where GOSL rounded up all the LTTE and put them in camps, and destroyed every LTTE memorial, including their graves. GOSL cannot stand the sight of LTTE markers – destroying the graves is not the beginning but the continuation of a long-standing process to suppress all aspects of Tamil nationalism with State resources.
Note to Groundviews: I have shown how ex-Nazis are treated better than ex-LTTE, by their respective governments. Desecration of graves is only one aspect of this.
“Russia and China as ‘failed nations’. With that level of penetrating insight into geo-political realities,”
Russia and China most certainly are failed nations because they never had the benefit of colonialism. Prof Heshan and I had a highly informative discussion of how British colonialism elevated Zimbabwe to be the beacon of democracy and free trade that it is today. More specifically, Zimbabwe has a higher proportion of Christians particularly Protestants than Russia and China, hence the advanced level of civilisation there.
After reading the comments and the article, there are new insights into the question.
So what’s the answer to the question, Desecration of of graves in jaffna – path to reconciliation?
No and yes.
No because it hurts MOST Tamil people. Whether these are graves or not is not the point here.
Yes because SLDF camps in the north is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL to maintain the SL version of peace/reconciliation until such time the north becomes substantially multiethnic (which is the BEST guarantee of lasting peace). And land is limited. Encroaching into private lands is not acceptable. Govt can use its land for the purpose.
These 2 issues cannot be reconciled as YES and NO cannot be reconciled.
It means there are at least 3 reconciliation models – the SL model, Tamil model and the international model. SL model must be upheld at all cost. Others must COMPLY with it. If they can’t, hard luck, no reconciliation for them!
In my view the “defeated” group and their relatives NEED reconciliation more than the “winners”. So the “defeated” must compromise. If they don’t, the winner will continue “winning” and the loser will continue losing. That makes the winner happier and the loser more sad.
how British colonialism elevated Zimbabwe to be the beacon of democracy and free trade that it is today.
But you failed to explain why the following former British colonies are all prosperous: 1) Australia, (2) New Zealand, (3) Hong Kong, (4) USA, (5) Canada, (6) Singapore…
They are all beacons of democracy and free trade. Perhaps your ideal beacon of democracy and free trade is Saudi Arabia?
Really? Can you link to any reliable source that holds Hong Kong and Singapore to be “shining beacons of democracy”? And why is that the other four former colonies you mention are Christian white? Are you suggesting that non-whites are incapable of achieving success without white help?
Even without a war, Singapore has a worse human rights record than SL!
Take a look at freedom house rankings of civil liberties and democracy!!!
Hong Kong is no better!
Democracy is NOT the criterion here. It is geopolitics.
e.g. When SL was in good books of the west due to geopolitics in the 1980s, it faced little pressure for HR, etc. despite REGULAR riots, excesses, etc.
TT,
Yes because SLDF camps in the north is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL to maintain the SL version of peace/reconciliation until such time the north becomes substantially multiethnic (which is the BEST guarantee of lasting peace).
I do not think you can forcibly achieve multi-ethnicity through colonization and militarization. The native population will perceive the outsiders as “invaders” and resent them. The outsiders will depend on State protection for their survival. I suggest you read up on Israel, which is a big fan of colonization. The Jewish settlements have only led to Arab resentment and condemnation by the rest of the world.
Multi-ethnicity (of the district population) can be achieved through state sponsorship.
e.g. Trinco, Ampara
Israel is different to SL.
1. Israel is building Jewish settlements in another country – Palestine!! Now that is criminal.
2. Israel invites Eastern Europeans into Israel and settle them in palestinian territories.
3. Most of these “occupied territories” remain Jewish only.
SL would not be doing ANY OF THESE if we follow re-colonization of the north by multi-ethnic communities.
(However, my personal views on Israel differ from widely accepted beliefs stated above. But they are not relevant here.)
But I agree resentment will be there. Sadly it cannot be taken away no matter what. It will anyway be there forever among Tamils who dream of Tamil Elam. It has no cure unless self-cure. (Tell others to cure it and they will be amused!
They may even exploit it!!)
That is why there should be militarization (which will add further resentment, sadly!). However, as time passes by people realize the worthlessness of resentment. It is yet another BAD feeling that must be overcome by humans to live in the society. Otherwise they who hold it suffer MOST.
e.g. health deterioration, mental problems associated with stress, conflict with the society, moving away from spirituality, self-harm, family problems, family-health problems, bad examples for children, depression, suicide, etc.
Those who don’t hold resentment, don’t suffer any of these!
“T” political parties THRIVE on resentment. That cannot be stopped. But “T” parties’ votes percentage (and hence relevance) can be reduced by re-colonization.
“But I agree resentment will be there. Sadly it cannot be taken away no matter what.”
But how do you know if you don’t try other ways? Why do you want to only try the one way that has proven to be a failure and unsustainable?
“It will anyway be there forever among Tamils who dream of Tamil Elam. It has no cure unless self-cure. (Tell others to cure it and they will be amused!
They may even exploit it!!)”
But what about the Tamils who don’t dream of Tamil Eelam, who only dream of being equal citizens in their own land; who only wish their elected representatives who have their best interests at heart to be able to represent those rights in parliament? Why is it that you want to disenfranchise them by ensuring that they will never have a majority anywhere?
“That is why there should be militarization (which will add further resentment, sadly!). However, as time passes by people realize the worthlessness of resentment. It is yet another BAD feeling that must be overcome by humans to live in the society. Otherwise they who hold it suffer MOST.”
So you’re suggesting that people must be repressed by the military and when they feel repressed by that repression, that they must blame themselves for feeling repressed? Isn’t it better to remove the repression and allow people to live happily?
<em"e.g. health deterioration, mental problems associated with stress, conflict with the society, moving away from spirituality, self-harm, family problems, family-health problems, bad examples for children, depression, suicide, etc."
So you’re saying all these things are the fault of the repressed and not of the repressive? Do you also believe that when a woman is beaten by her husband, and feels depressed, saddened, suicidal, it is her own fault because she doesn’t agree with her husband who is stronger and therefore right? I must say it is refreshing to hear someone defend such ideas in the 21st century? Whoever said that the missing link in evolution would never be found?
“Those who don’t hold resentment, don’t suffer any of these!”
That is certainly a novel idea; so when the Muslims were driven out of the North, when the Sinhalese were suicide-bombed in the south, they shouldn’t have felt resentment. What should they have felt?
<em"“T” political parties THRIVE on resentment. That cannot be stopped. But “T” parties’ votes percentage (and hence relevance) can be reduced by re-colonization."
If they thrive on resentment, wouldn’t the easiest solution be to remove the resentment? Do you know what the word means? You can copy and paste it here from an online dictionary if you like.
“No and yes.”
So you’ve no answer?
“No because it hurts MOST Tamil people. Whether these are graves or not is not the point here.”
But I asked you days ago how you know that “most” Tamils are upset by this, but you had no answer.
“Yes because SLDF camps in the north is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL to maintain the SL version of peace/reconciliation until such time the north becomes substantially multiethnic (which is the BEST guarantee of lasting peace).”
But I pointed out weeks ago that a policy that requires a military to enforce it is a failure. You had no answer to this, and abandoned the discussion. As usual. And I also challenged your assertion that colonisation brought peace, by asking you over a month ago to prove it; you were unable to
“And land is limited. Encroaching into private lands is not acceptable. Govt can use its land for the purpose.”
But the GoSL has plenty of fertile land in the south. Why is ir instead choosing to colonise land in the north? And government land doesn’t belong to politicians; it belongs to the people.
“These 2 issues cannot be reconciled as YES and NO cannot be reconciled.”
So you’re suggesting that the two issues are contradictory? Yes, that’s what the Tiger-supporters are saying too; that the desecration of graves are contradictory to national reconciliation.
“It means there are at least 3 reconciliation models – the SL model, Tamil model and the international model. SL model must be upheld at all cost. Others must COMPLY with it. If they can’t, hard luck, no reconciliation for them!”,/em>
Don’t you know what the word reconciliation means?
Try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconciliation
DB,
Stop playing with words. What I mean by re-colonization is populating the north with people of all ethnicities in numbers roughly equalling the national population percentage of SL.
As for others, I have answered!
Both no & yes at the same time is an answer, DB. It is not a black and/or white world we are living in.
“Stop playing with words. What I mean by re-colonization is populating the north with people of all ethnicities in numbers roughly equalling the national population percentage of SL.”
Yes, that’s called colonisation, as you yourself have termed it over the past month or so. Why this sudden use of euphemisms such as “peace village”? Lol. Is it because I quoted the negative context colonisation is held in by the democratic world? If you mean colonisation, say colonisation, TT. Don’t be ashamed of your beliefs.
“As for others, I have answered!”
Actually, you haven’t. These issues are part of the 39 issues you are still to answer. As I predicted, you’re running away again; but don’t worry, whenever you bring it up, I’ll be there to challenge you
“Both no & yes at the same time is an answer, DB. It is not a black and/or white world we are living in.
”
Yes, and that is why ambivalent answers require an explanation, which is what I’ve asked you for.
“Singapore may not be a beacon of democracy”
Then why did you call it one?
“Hong Kong under the British was certainly as democratic as any other place.”
As democratic as any other colony you mean
In other words, no democracy.
“Race is irrelevant.”
Nevertheless, the only former colonies you mention are white-majority ones. Why did you leave out the scores scattered across Africa and Asia; don’t they fit your theory that everything touched by the white man was good?
“The point is that you cannot, in 2010, blame a nation’s woes solely on what happened in 1845.”
But no one is. What I am saying is that the roots of a lot of the woes can be traced back to policies and scenarios that were enacted variously between 1505 and 1948, a period of 450 years in which the natural dynamics of Sri Lanka’s society was superseded by an alien one. Certainly, we must take responsibility for our actions in the post-independence period, but that doesn’t absolve the Europeans from their share of it.
“Much of Europe was in shambles after WWII, but look how fast those nations developed.”
Those nations were already developed before WW2; they weren’t starting from scratch, but putting the pieces back together. Ultimately, WW2 was a mere blink in the eye of history, incomparable to the colonial experience which lasted centuries and completely stunted the development of the occupied nations’ societies. We’ve been through all this before, Heshan. We can do it again, but the result will be the same
“Look at Israel – a first-world nation right in the desert, that did not exist until after 1940.”
And which would not exist today without its American patron.
“While a single individual’s future may not always lie in their own hands (this is just the economic reality), the same cannot be said of a nation, which is an average of many people – nations control their own destiny.”
What rubbish. Germany’s post-WW1 destiny was controlled by the victorious Allies who decimated it with war reparations; while in contrast, post-WW2 Germany was pumped full of money by the Americans — not because they liked the Germans so much — but because they needed an autonomous buffer against the Soviets. Germany’s destiny was shaped by the two wings of the victorious Allies; east and west. Look at Britain’s influence on the destinies of its colonies, the Israeli influence on Palestine, England’s influence on Ireland, the USSR’s influence over the destiny of Eastern Europe, China’s influence over Southeast Asia, India’s influence on our destiny in the ’80s and ’90s. In all these and many other examples, a nation’s destiny has been completely changed by more powerful powers.
Really? Can you link to any reliable source that holds Hong Kong and Singapore to be “shining beacons of democracy”? And why is that the other four former colonies you mention are Christian white? Are you suggesting that non-whites are incapable of achieving success without white help?
Singapore may not be a beacon of democracy, but of trade, yes. Hong Kong under the British was certainly as democratic as any other place. Race is irrelevant. The point is that you cannot, in 2010, blame a nation’s woes solely on what happened in 1845. Much of Europe was in shambles after WWII, but look how fast those nations developed. Look at Israel – a first-world nation right in the desert, that did not exist until after 1940. While a single individual’s future may not always lie in their own hands (this is just the economic reality), the same cannot be said of a nation, which is an average of many people – nations control their own destiny.
Prof Heshan
“Look at Israel – a first-world nation right in the desert, that did not exist until after 1940.”
Do you believe that the Sinhalese should treat the Tamils the same way that the Israelis treated the Palestinians?
“But you failed to explain why the following former British colonies are all prosperous: 1) Australia, (2) New Zealand, (3) Hong Kong, (4) USA, (5) Canada, (6) Singapore…”
1, 2, 4, and 5 don’t count because those colonies were peopled by British themselves. That leaves Hong Kong and Singapore which are backward societies lacking proper Anglican influence.
“They are all beacons of democracy and free trade. Perhaps your ideal beacon of democracy and free trade is Saudi Arabia?”
As we already established, the true beacon is Zimbabwe that had the proper level of Anglican influence. The population converted to the right religion and now the country is a paradise. Can you say the same about Hong Kong.
Do you believe that the Sinhalese should treat the Tamils the same way that the Israelis treated the Palestinians?
There is not much difference, at the present moment.
1, 2, 4, and 5 don’t count because those colonies were peopled by British themselves.
Actually the USA was peopled by many more groups than the British. How do you explain that a former British colony became a superpower?
That leaves Hong Kong and Singapore which are backward societies
You cannot deny that they were administered as British colonies, which is all that matters.
As we already established, the true beacon is Zimbabwe
Zimbabwe is in dire straits only because of Mugabe’s land reform policies.
TT,
Thanks for your enlightening response.
2. Israel invites Eastern Europeans into Israel and settle them in palestinian territories.
3. Most of these “occupied territories” remain Jewish only.
SL would not be doing ANY OF THESE if we follow re-colonization of the north by multi-ethnic communities.
The only difficulty here is that colonization in SL has always been a one-way affair. I don’t think GOSL is going to start Tamil settlements at any point in the near future, since JVP/Urumaya etc. would strongly oppose it.
As democratic as any other colony you mean
In other words, no democracy.
Well, if you don’t think Hong Kong was democratic, that’s your business.
Nevertheless, the only former colonies you mention are white-majority ones. Why did you leave out the scores scattered across Africa and Asia; don’t they fit your theory that everything touched by the white man was good?
What it shows is that colonialism cannot be blamed for a nation’s woes. If Hong Kong and Singapore can be successful, then so can SL and Zimbabwe. The fact that SL and Zimbabwe are not as successful as the former can only be blamed on SL and Zimbabwe. Let me explain this again: if every former colony failed, then colonialism is obviously a failure. But if even one former colony is a success, then the colonial-blame game falls out the window.
Those nations were already developed before WW2; they weren’t starting from scratch, but putting the pieces back together.
Does this look like putting the pieces back together? Do those buildings look remotely habitable to you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLlhVc5qErY&feature=related
Multiply that city by two dozen other European cities. No European colony was ever reduced to such a pathetic state.
And which would not exist today without its American patron.
Last time I checked, the Americans didn’t take part in the Six-Day War.
while in contrast, post-WW2 Germany was pumped full of money by the Americans — not because they liked the Germans so much — but because they needed an autonomous buffer against the Soviets.
You must be referring to West Germany which was divided into various allied zones. On the other hand, my point remains that a nation decides its own destiny. The Germans deciding to tear the wall down arose from popular sentiment.
“Well, if you don’t think Hong Kong was democratic, that’s your business.”
Just as if you think Hitler won WW2, it’s your business; the point is that no British colony ever had democracy. If you think Brit Hong Kong was democratic, I urge you to show me the governing system in which a legislature and/or executive was elected by the inhabitants of the island.
“What it shows is that colonialism cannot be blamed for a nation’s woes. If Hong Kong and Singapore can be successful, then so can SL and Zimbabwe.”
That would only be true if you believe that the colonial experience was identical to all colonies, and that all colonies were demographically, culturally, geographically, and economically identical. Since that is obviously not so, you cannot point to the success of certain colonies as evidence that the colonial experience was universally either benign, irrelevant, or both.
Similarly, you have been dishonest in your selection of colonies as examples, partly because you’re unable to suppress your bigotry towards certain nations like Malaysia which are former colonies.
Additionally, as already pointed out, both Singapore and Hong Kong are not, and never were, democratic, and therefore never had to deal with the turmoils that are inevitable in the teething stages of fledgling democracies. Australia, New Zealand, the USA, etc are hardly representative of former colonies, since unlike most of the latter, the colonists never left at independence; instead, they had become the local population and replaced the pre-colonial native cultures and systems. Therefore, all that happened at independence was a shift of rule from the foreign whites to the local whites. If you had selected successful non-white former colonies as examples, you might have at least had a foot to stand on; right now you don’t. Have another go
“Does this look like putting the pieces back together? Do those buildings look remotely habitable to you?”
But in a few short years the German and Japanese cities were back to normal again, and in a decade you’d never have known there’d been a war. And that was my original point — a few short years of war, however intense is incomparable to the impact of centuries of occupation; mostly because WW2 didn’t change any of the societal systems of Germany or Japan, nor their culture, value systems, demographics, or any of the important elements that define a nation’s character.
“Last time I checked, the Americans didn’t take part in the Six-Day War.”
You should have checked harder: “American military involvement with Israel remained sporadic until the 1973 Yom Kippur War. Following an Egyptian refusal to accept a cease-fire and a Soviet military airlift to the Arab states, the Nixon Administration sent a United States airlift of weapons and supplies to Israel ENABLING HER TO RECOVER FROM EARLIER SETBACKS. Starting on October 14, 1973 US Air Force “Operation Nickel Grass” flew resupply missions to Israel for a full month. As a direct result of the Yom Kippur War, the United States quadrupled its foreign aid to Israel, and replaced France as Israel’s largest arms supplier. The doctrine of maintaining Israel’s “qualitative edge” over its neighbors was born in the war’s aftermath. This was based both on US appreciation of Israel’s role as a defender of Western values in a generally hostile region, and also on the Cold War calculus of opposing the Arab client states of the Soviet Union.” (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_israel_us_support.php ) “Bilateral relations have evolved from an initial US policy of sympathy and support for the creation of a Jewish homeland in 1948 to an unusual partnership that links a small but militarily powerful Israel, DEPENDENT ON THE UNITED STATES FOR ITS ECONOMIC AND MILITARY STRENGTH, with the US superpower trying to balance competing interests in the region.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_%E2%80%93_United_States_relations )
“You must be referring to West Germany which was divided into various allied zones. On the other hand, my point remains that a nation decides its own destiny. The Germans deciding to tear the wall down arose from popular sentiment.”
Yes, I was referring to West Germany which as a result of US influence had a better destiny than East Germany. The fall of the wall is one incident, and I never said that a nation’s destiny is never under its control either. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn’t, so to say something as absolutist as “a nation decides its own destiny” is both inaccurate and immature.
I must say it is refreshing to hear someone defend such ideas in the 21st century?
Give the man a break, Blacker. Didn’t you spend the better part of your life fighting to propagate the ideas he’s now espousing? Are you saying you don’t want the cake after it’s been baked?
“Didn’t you spend the better part of your life fighting to propagate the ideas he’s now espousing?”
Not at all; something that both you and TT refuse to accept, but are unable to disprove
Prof Heshan
“Do you believe that the Sinhalese should treat the Tamils the same way that the Israelis treated the Palestinians?
There is not much difference, at the present moment.
Then why are you so upset how the Sinhalese are treating the Tamils?
“How do you explain that a former British colony became a superpower?”
The best way to start is by eliminating anyone who gets in your way:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny
“Manifest Destiny had serious consequences for Native Americans and African Americans, since continental expansion implicitly meant the occupation and annexation of Native American land, sometimes to expand slavery. The United States continued the European practice of recognizing only limited land rights of indigenous peoples.
“In the age of Manifest Destiny, this idea, which came to be known as “Indian Removal”, gained ground. Although some humanitarian advocates of removal believed that American Indians would be better off moving away from whites, an increasing number of Americans regarded the natives as nothing more than savages who stood in the way of American expansion. As historian Reginald Horsman argued in his influential study Race and Manifest Destiny, racial rhetoric increased during the era of Manifest Destiny. Americans increasingly believed that Native Americans would fade away as the United States expanded. As an example, this idea was reflected in the work of one of America’s first great historians, Francis Parkman, whose landmark book The Conspiracy of Pontiac was published in 1851. Parkman wrote that Indians were “destined to melt and vanish before the advancing waves of Anglo-American power, which now rolled westward unchecked and unopposed.”
Australians did something similar:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations
Do you support the idea of similarly herding the Tamils into tiny reservations so that they stay out of our way?
“You cannot deny that they were administered as British colonies, which is all that matters.”
Then you have just disproven your own argument that Christianity is superior to Buddhism, saying that “administered as British colonies” was all that mattered.
“Zimbabwe is in dire straits only because of Mugabe’s land reform policies.”
But how come such policies were implemented in such an advanced Christian civilisation while primitive Buddhist societies like Japan never did that.
Then why are you so upset how the Sinhalese are treating the Tamils?
Who said I was upset? I have been out of the island for more than 3 decades, so I have no stake in what goes on there, other than some assets which I own. I am arguing for the sake of rationality alone.
The best way to start is by eliminating anyone who gets in your way:
Not only the USA, but Canada, most of South America, Australia, and New Zealand followed a similar pattern. On the other hand, how is it different from what the Moghuls did in North India, or what the Turks did in Armenia, or what the Muslims did in North Africa?
Do you support the idea of similarly herding the Tamils into tiny reservations so that they stay out of our way?
Did you know that the average standard living of living on Red Indian reservation is higher than the average standard of living in a typical Sri Lankan village? I have visited these reservations.
Then you have just disproven your own argument that Christianity is superior to Buddhism, saying that “administered as British colonies” was all that mattered.
The British were indeed superior administrators in comparison to the Sinhalese-Buddhist dominated GOSL. That is because the British had hundreds of years of experience with governing various colonies. But I never claimed the reason had anything to do with religion. You bring up the religion as per your personal insecurities. Anyway, if we follow your logic, and you believe religion is the decisive factor, then why is the Sinhalese-Buddhist dominated GOSL unable to take SL into the 21st century?
But how come such policies were implemented in such an advanced Christian civilisation while primitive Buddhist societies like Japan never did that.
But how come Marxist groups like the JVP are opposed to Western-style free markets in SL? The JVP would turn SL into a Zimbabwe overnight, if it came into power.
[Edited out.]
[Dear Heshan and DB, please address the topic of the article in your discussions. Thank you. GV]
Not at all, which is a fact both you and TT refuse to accept but are unable to disprove
Title:
Clinton on Resolution Against Sexual Violence in Armed Conflict
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Office of the Spokesman
September 30, 2009
Excerpt
“Now, reading the headlines, one might think that the use of rape as a tactic of war only happens
occasionally, or in a few places, like the Democratic Republic of the Congo or Sudan. That would be bad enough, but the reality is much worse. We’ve seen rape used as a tactic of war before in Bosnia, Burma, Sri Lanka, and elsewhere. In too many countries and in too many cases, the perpetrators of this violence are not punished, and so this impunity encourages further attacks.”
Source:
http://www.america.gov/st/texttrans-english/2009/September/20090930153104xjsnommis0.1156732.html
Rape is used as a tactic of war by the GOSL. It is a well established fact by many independent sources. It is integral to the SL model.