War crimes and human rights in Sri Lanka: A home grown solution
The Sri Lankan discourse on war crimes, violations of international humanitarian law and human rights in general, divide into two camps, both of which demonise the other. One holds that the entire matter is a campaign by imperialism and its agents; human rights is itself a suspicious Western usage if not a concept invented millennia ago by us Asians (perhaps even the Sinhala Buddhists) which we need no lectures on– and the only response we need give is to “just say no”, which we can with a little help from our (Asian or Third World) friends.
The opposing school of thought is that Sri Lanka is a human rights hellhole and either became so during whichever the administration the critic is not in sympathy with at this moment, or has been so for most of its existence– and can be redeemed only with more than a little help from our (Western) friends.
What, however, are the facts? Given the nature of the Tigers and the repeated experience of successive Sri Lankan administrations, there was no negotiated solution possible or desirable at any stage of the final conflict. Any such attempt would have provided an exit for the Tigers. Given that the Tigers were an army or armed militia with a small navy and a fledgling air-force, the state had to fight a full-on war to its logical conclusion, with the aim of the military destruction of the enemy. While political multi-polarity is healthy, military bipolarity is not permissible within a state; certainly on a small island-state. Given that the Tigers had fielded more suicide bombers than any and all other terrorist groups put together, and that the stated Tiger strategy involved (what ‘Taraki’ called) ‘asymmetric deterrence’, i.e. deep, destructive terror strikes into the ‘Sinhala heartland’, it was necessary to uproot and eliminate the LTTE suicide cells and extensive clandestine network.
No war takes place in a vacuum. The assertion that with the Tigers encircled, it would have been possible to have a less bloody outcome, and therefore the endgame that actually took place needs be investigated as a war crime or violation of international humanitarian law, is sheer nonsense, for three reasons:
Firstly, the lesson of twentieth century history is that a ‘textbook fascist’ force as The Economist (London) admits the Tigers were, has to be utterly decimated.
Secondly, the Sri Lankan forces had to operate according to a tightening time table not of their own choosing, as regional and sub-regional politics as well as mounting international pressure, gave the State a narrowing window of opportunity. It was a neck-and-neck race between the historic chance of finishing off the Tigers and concerted international pressure interrupting the offensive as once before, or retarding its momentum. If not for these external factors acting as accelerants, the war could /would probably have taken another month to finish, with greater circumspection.  The international pressures were too strong for the Sri Lankan state to ignore but too weak to stop the state’s military campaign, just as the Sri Lankan state was too weak to simply ignore the mounting pressure but too strong to be cowed by them. We had to outrun the pressures by accelerating the military offensive and closing the endgame as soon as possible.
Thirdly, at no time were civilians wittingly targeted as a matter of policy, nor were civilians boxed in and deprived of an exit by the state, as was not the case in a war that took place around the same time and is being rightly investigated by a probe initiated by the self-same UN Human Rights Council which gave Sri Lanka a 29-12 majority vote. It is the Tiger terrorists who were keeping the civilians hostage while the Sri Lankan military was trying to help them escape.
This having been said, it is also necessary to draw attention to the fact that in no civilised democracy is the allegation of war crimes or human rights violations made by an ex-military officer or even a serving one, treated as treason and cause for prosecution! After the recent Gaza war, several serving members of the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) told the press that a certain Rabbi had been giving them ‘spiritual instructions’ that it was ok to kill Palestinian civilians. Others testified that certain orders were given which were at best, ambiguous, in relation to civilians and could have led to incidents of killings. Years before, a group of helicopter pilots of the Israeli Air Force signed a public petition refusing to engage in ground attack operations in built up civilian areas. In none of these incidents were any of the servicemen prosecuted for revealing military secrets. When there was an outcry over the massacres at Sabra and Shatila in the aftermath of Israel’s Lebanon War of 1982, Israel held a much publicised inquiry in which General Ariel Sharon, war hero, was named as one of those responsible.
In the United States, servicemen have confessed about civilian killings even on prime time TV. Far from being locked up, they have been questioned, those allegedly responsible investigated, taken into custody and prosecuted (though the allegation is that sentences have been light and there is a virtual revolving back door). Some incidents involving civilian deaths, such as the infamous killings during Baghdad traffic jam by Blackwater ‘security contractors’ (i.e. mercenaries) have led to hearings before the US legislature.
Therefore, today’s Sri Lanka has a grotesque uniqueness in its response to Ret General Fonseka’s sporadic statements about war crimes. Those statements are as ironic as they are reprehensible –ironic because he was responsible for the toughest policies and practices during the war and would permit no softening – there is no reason to behave like a lynch mob and call for his burning at the stake. This official response only marks us out as having failed to be aware of and catch up with modern norms of conduct on matters of accountability, and damages our image in the eyes of the world. As I had warned earlier, it is not so much Gen Fonseka’s allegations but the deafeningly loud trumpeting of those allegations as a betrayal of national military secrets, followed by prosecution on the same grounds, that has escalated the international push on the issue (this time at the level of the UN Sec Gen).
The issues of accountability will be dealt with by each society at its own pace, and in accordance with its own imperatives. The UK has still to conclude its second inquiry into the killing of unarmed civilians in broad daylight, on Bloody Sunday 1972! Many societies find organic ways of catharsis and conciliation.
In order to get the war crimes/human rights pressure off Sri Lanka, it is imperative to realise that such pressures are a symptom and by-product of something having gone wrong in our external relations and our ability to communicate with the world. There is a growing deficit of Sri Lanka’s ‘soft power’ and conspicuous failure in the realm of ‘the New Public Diplomacy’ (both phrases of Harvard’s Prof Joseph Nye).
Learning from our experience in Geneva, I propose a third position, which consists of five propositions and proposals as solution.
- There must be a substantive difference between our wartime and post war policies, though two factors must remain, namely, no polarising rake-up of the past and no intrusion into national sovereignty.
- It is not necessary however, to stonewall, as we did and had to, during the war. There has to be an authentic, manifest, unilateral liberalisation in our attitudes and policies on human rights.
- Just saying ‘No’, and giving not merely the West but the UN the finger, is not a solution. Our more important friends and allies may not want to get into a squabble with the UN and its Secy Gen on our behalf. Those who fought alongside us diplomatically during the war may not do so during peacetime, especially if that peace drags on without reconciliation and normalcy. Furthermore, as Sudan realised, sometimes even one’s friends do not wish to get into a punch up with the West on one’s behalf if they have bigger fish to fry.
- The only real antidote against external pressures on accountability and human rights is to have strong, credible national institutions and mechanisms. Sri Lanka does not have a national human rights body which fits this description, though arguably there was once an approximation. The country needs a strong, independent Commission on Human Rights, Equality and Elimination of Discrimination headed by a person with international credentials and of acknowledged international stature, or the appointment of such a personage as a powerful National Ombudsman on Human Rights.
- Cooperate with the Asian region and the global South on matters of human rights. It is not enough to countervail Western pressure; it is necessary to adhere to evolving consensual norms in Asia and the global South. ASEAN already has a human rights charter, and the African Union has a mechanism which was one of the examples for the Universal Periodic Review adopted by the UN Human Rights Council. Build up South-South linkages and learn “best practices” from the democracies of the global South such as Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina, Mexico, Colombia, South Africa, India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Nicaragua, Philippines etc.
Those ‘nationalists’ who propose a ‘national’ solution for everything, have failed to call for the strengthening of the national human rights institutions, and mechanisms; a strengthening that is possible only by the appointment of an independent body with ‘teeth’, consisting of distinguished nationals who have brought honour to their country of origin by performance and recognition in the global arena.
What stands between Sri Lanka and the full reintegration as a normal and successful member of the international system, is not only the prejudice of the West but the perniciousness of our own dominant ideology; our own mindset. John Stockwell, a dissenting former CIA employee, blew the whistle on America’s tacit support for apartheid South Africa in Angola, in a book he entitled ‘In Search of Enemies’. He was referring to the mindset in the White House. It is time to for Sri Lanka to stop the search for enemies and ‘turn the searchlight inwards’. I believe what ails us is already best defined in a comparative analysis (which makes no reference to Sri Lanka) by Professor Fred Halliday, renowned radical scholar of international relations at the LSE, writing in Open Democracy on ‘The Miscalculations of Small Nations’. He describes the phenomenon as ‘the puff of ideology… self-inflating’ and a ‘delusion’, arguing that:
‘…the responsibility devolves onto the self-inflating nationalist ideology …with its heady mix of vanity, presumption and miscalculation…If the supreme responsibility of democratic leaders is indeed to protect their own peoples, then the briefest of comparative overview can show just how pernicious the impact of the kind of nationalist delusion…The chief agent of destruction is not to be found in “culture” (in the guise of religion or some other vague source of identity) but in the arrogance, recklessness and ignorance born of nationalist excess – which, to be sure, often uses religion and associated “cultural” offerings as part of its packaging…True, such miscalculations about the capabilities of one’s own forces and the reactions of others are not confined to small nations. Most major nations have many and larger blunders to their name…The difference is that except in the most extreme of cases – notably Nazi Germany – these large states have been able to recuperate their losses and in large measure continue to inhabit their illusions of grandeur. Smaller peoples pay a higher price… [Sakaashvili’s] entrapment in nationalist delusion was always going to backfire.’
Human Rights are not a Western invention or booby-trap, to be decried and shunned like the devil. Though there is a constant attempt to use human rights as an instrument to undermine national sovereignty, the answer is not to shun human rights or to pretend that these are intrinsically inscribed in our culture and therefore automatically observed, but to protect them ourselves and to maintain verifiably high standards of human rights observance nationally. While it is true that the West uses human rights in a duplicitous manner, the answer is not merely to content ourselves with exposing and denouncing that duplicity as we must (and I did, in my turn) but to observe and protect those rights in a manner that is other than duplicitous and hypocritical. The answer to duplicity and hypocrisy is not counter-duplicity but sincerity and truth. The great African liberation fighter Amilcar Cabral said that ‘tell no lies, claim no easy victories — the best propaganda is the truth’. He had a resonance which catalysed a revolution in the colonial country, Portugal, which was oppressing his own.
The vital lesson is to hold the moral high ground. During the war Sri Lanka held that ground, not because of some innate moral virtue deriving from intrinsic cultural superiority but because of the demonstrably fascist character of our enemy, the Tigers. Today that moral high ground must be recaptured and can be done so only by our own positive efforts, not by reference to the negative attributes of a defeated enemy, nor attributing the same qualities to whoever comes along to criticise us. Human rights are not the preserve of West or East, North or South; they are universal and derive from the universality of the human condition. Human beings are possessed of certain inalienable rights. What is most important is not that we are ‘Sri Lankan’ (a ‘karmic’ circumstance, surely) but that we are human, and even more basically, sentient beings.
The writer was Sri Lanka’s Ambassador/Permanent Representative to the United Nations, Geneva during the Special Session of May 2009, and was a Vice President of the UN Human Rights Council.
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I was going to post the following here,
http://www.groundviews.org/2010/01/13/standing-the-world-on-its-head/
but the comments for that thread is not working. Anyway this is relevant to this article and the former article and the discussion that followed.
Here’s another a dodgy incident involving NATO troops that maybe of some interest to this discussion. This time it’s Australian troops. This same channel had done a piece on the Sri Lankan fake execution video fabricated by pro LTTE elements recently. Saw this on their web site. At least these guys are taking everyone to task on what little evidence they have.
http://bit.ly/aIKBqO
Why is the UN all so silent on this and other incidents involving NATO troops? The family member alleges one of the little children were sliced into pieces during the raid. Chilling and it definitely sounds like extra judicial killings. 3 children killed? That is just uncalled for. Mr Phillip Alston have you missed this one? Are you too busy with Sri Lanka that you don’t have time? Or do you have a policy of investigating dark coloured soldiers only, even when you don’t have evidence?
Sri Lanka valiantly upholded human rights in regards to its recent war on the LTTE at the cost of vast casualties in the armed forces, minimising civilian collateral. No amount of propaganda can tarnish the truth. And most of these civilian collateral was caused by LTTE by indiscriminate shelling, holding them as human shields in the front line and killing them when they tried to escape the hostage situation. As for the Western pressure its just plain hypocrisy so their crimes can be put on the back burner as highlighted above by pushing Sri Lanka into the limelight. Naturally there is no evidence to prove this and justice will prevail!
As I said on Transcurrents, this article only confirms my view that DJ has indeed had a change of heart after being kicked out by MR. The one time apologist and defender of the GOSL is now a “born-again” intellectual and is getting back to what he was before the lure of the high-profile job in the UN made him compromise his views. Welcome back DJ, I am paying you a compliment and I am really glad. We all had our times when we supported someone or another only to find that we had made a mistake…and so there is no shame in that. Remember even Hitler was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize, imagine what those guys must have thought of a few years later? But really, it is good to have you back. Thanks for being able to do so, I respect you more for that.
“The vital lesson is to hold the moral high ground..”. Right! But what chance of this with an administration where ‘morality’ is a decidedly endangered species (if not on the verge of extinction) with ministers of the caliber of Mervin and the other convicts who have been appointed to their positions? And we won’t even mention Hambantota…
I hope the Tamils will get justice.!
We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim.
Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. Sometimes we must interfere. When human lives are endangered, when human dignity is in jeopardy, national borders and sensitivities become irrelevant. Wherever men and women are persecuted because of their race, religion, or political views, that place must – at that moment – become the center of the universe.
Sri Lanka, if you are not hiding anything then let the UN investigate.
“What, however, are the facts?”
Perhaps the facts worth repeating over and over again – if only because people like Dayan J will not dare to mention them – are that the Sri Lankan Government barred independent observers, e.g. journalists, from visiting the war zone, and it also severely restricted independent observers and journalists from speaking freely to the IDP’s in the detention camps. Given these facts – and they are certainly facts – it is only fair to speculate that the Sri Lankan Government is engaged in a massive cover-up of its war crimes. One such war crime happens to be the execution of unarmed LTTE leaders holding white flags.
Dayan Jayatillake’s desperate attempt to exonerate the Sri Lankan Government on the basis of the LTTE not being amenable to surrender is an argument that simply does not hold water. No nation on Earth, except Sri Lanka, would shell its own ppl or aerially bomb them, certainly not when several hundred thousand of them are so densely packed together. But I believe this point has been made clear – that, in fact, Tamils do not belong to Sri Lanka, and so any harm must needs be considered a “necessary evil.” Isn’t that what Gotabaya Rajapakse meant when he tried to deport Northern and Eastern Tamils back to their “homeland”? Or when Gotabaya said its okay to shell hospitals? Or when Sarath Fonseka said the island belongs to Sinhalese? Or when Dayan J. said Tamils are in no position to dictate the terms of surrender?
An article in justifying wrongdoing! What is applicable in reality, as far as the aggrieved are concerned, is the ‘second school of thought’.
There is no mention at all in the article of the UN Charter or to international humanitarian laws or to the Geneva Conventions which were all subscribed to or ratified by Sri Lanka as a UN member country. Human rights is, therefore, not a Western concoction but of universal endorsement and application.
The real fact is that even negotiated solutions to the ligusitic and ethnic problems since independence had been dishonoured or unimplemented by succesive Sri Lnkan governments long before the dawn of the Tigers, and even after their demise, despite constitutional provision. The simple answer is: ‘majoritarian’ vote at every election since September 1956 matters until today and will in future! This is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
The air force boasted of more than 5,000 bombing missions.The navy fired thousands of shells from offshore. The army fired millions of bullets,rockets,mortar bombs and artillery shels. Yet the official spokesmen said that “not a single civilian was killed”. Now the real witnesses to the slaughter – around 11,000 of them – are being held incommunicado as ‘LTTE sympathisers/trainees/combatants’, plus hundreds of civilian witnesses. Of course the LTTE killed some who were trying to escape the “no fire zone” which was targeted by the army. Doctors who reported shelling of hospitals were coersced into ‘confessions’ that they gave ‘wrong information’ due to threats by the LTTE. Gotabaya said that anything outside the so called ‘no fire zone’ including hospitals are ‘legitimate ‘targets. Sarath Fonseka revealed that LTTE leaders surrendering/carrying white flags were killed on orders from Gotabaya.
Denial of all this is the “moral high ground” according to the writer – only because the LTTE was ‘fascist’ in character and had to be decimated quickly due to international criticism of attacks on the ‘no fire zone’ details of which were leaked by journalists who risked their lives.
There is/was a minister and secretary for human rights – whose task was to ‘whitewash’ the slaughter. The latest is the writer of this piece.
The Sri Lanka Army military men had been busy with bull dozers, unearthing bodies of the Tamil victims of the Sri Lanka Civil War and burning them to cinders by night.
How more awful can it get?
And there are thousands more such mass graves in the north and east.
When will the kith and kin of those poor victims get justice?
It is time for Sri lanka to come clean so that these gruesome crimes are not repeated rather than in trying to get away every time using diabolical methods.
Justice denied can never set minds to rest.
@Shoba,
You note that “The Sri Lanka Army military men had been busy with bull dozers, unearthing bodies of the Tamil victims of the Sri Lanka Civil War and burning them to cinders by night.”
Please let us in on the source of this information, since we hope you recognise that heresay and conjecture are of no use in robust discussions on war crimes and crimes against humanity.
No amount of writing can convince a corrupt leader like [edited out] and his brothers.This dirty family [edited out] will ruin Sri Lanka by their short sighted selfish policies.
I wish the war crimes issue was just about unearthing the truth and not prosecuting wrongdoers. It’s the fear that Mahinda and gang will be prosecuted for war crimes that makes many Sri Lankans, who love their heroes, resist international calls for an accounting. The Tamils don’t need prosecution of anybody–they simply want and need to know the truth. And they have a right to the truth after the nightmare they have been through, the years of displacement, the running from one place to another seeking refuge, the loss of family.
Why can’t the UN promise immunity against prosecution in return for a chance to form a commission of inquiry? They can put international as well as local people on the panel, including Tamil reps such as the UTHR (J). (No politicians though!) The nature of these crimes (if true) are such that justice can be served not by prosecuting individuals, but throwing light on an entire system and on a society. As DJ says “It is time to for Sri Lanka to stop the search for enemies and ‘turn the searchlight inwards’”. Unfortunately, you can’t do that internal searching without an external context of truth-seeking.
And, seriously, DJ’s words are not enough to convince anyone of the truth of what happened. That’s just patronising. There needs to be an independent commission of inquiry.
Observer,
“Sri Lanka valiantly upholded human rights in regards to its recent war on the LTTE at the cost of vast casualties in the armed forces, minimising civilian collateral. No amount of propaganda can tarnish the truth.”
I think what you meant by the last sentence was that no amount of truth can tarnish the (state’s) propaganda. We have yet to see ANY evidence that “Sri Lanka valiantly upholded [sic] human rights…”.
@Groundviews:
I am not saying it is definitely true that the bodies were moved/buried/disposed of with bulldozers and such. However, we have been in this situation before, e.g. in the late 90′s. I refer you to this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-jCJC0bv7s
How do you explain the presence of heavy earth-moving equipment within the vicinity of an alleged mass grave, such as the video purports? Keep in mind that the mass grave allegation was substantiated by Cpl Somaratne Rajapakse in the SL Supreme Court.
Much has been said about the ”instant terror” of LTTE or other rebels.
What has not been discuassed is the decades-long ”slow terror” of government institutions.
The whole world must work towards eliminating the ”slow terror” of government institutions to avoid future ”instant terrors”.
DJ raises some valid points and suggests a solution. Although he and a couple of others, including the writer he cites have raised similar points there is no sign of any heed being paid by the powers-that-be.
It is therefore interesting to speculate as to where the current course of action eventually take the nation. Would it end with the state being described in the same terms as its erstwhile, and now vanquished foe?
A person who has committed war crimes, often tries to cover up with blatant lies, if he thinks he can get away with it, was clearly evident from the interview held by Sara Sidner with president Rajapakse of Sri Lanka(SL), telecast to the world yesterday, by CNN.
Without batting his eye lids, running short of words, Rajapakse shamelessly told a few blatant lies, subsequently exposed brilliantly by Sara, with proof of evidence o viewers, later by images.
Gotabaya Rajapakse said during the last days of the war ” the hospitals are targets for aerial bombings” and bombed ruthlessly; and there is subsatantial evidence in support of it. Yet, president Rajapakse chose to defend with a lie, denying it.
The war was an independence war for Tamil Eelam(TE), which could have been politically resolved. But that was not done.
It is evident now that the ethnic racist regime in Colombo thought that they could commit Tamil genocide, eliminate any evidence, tell lies and escape from punishment by denying involvement in the crimes.
The image of soldiers with rifles behind an unfortunate naked Tamil, handcuffed behind, with the intent to arbitrarily execute him, shows to what barbaric extent crimes were committed.
If humanity believes in justice and preservation of human kind; Rajapakse, his cabinet, all the soldiers who committed war crimes and accomplices should be speedily brought to the war crimes court in the Hague and punished.
A lady victim of the war, who lost her limbs and relatives when the soldiers bombed the civilan targets, was asked very kindly by Sara ” what do you think about your future?”. She had no answer except tears rolling down her beautiful face.
Surely, she knows that her hope and future cannot come from the present genocidal regime or any future regime in Colombo.
Even the soldiers seen in images “removing” land mines were pretending to do a job. They cannot be interested because it is not their homeland.
Therefore, the only pragmatic solution left for the International Community, if they still care for the lives and future of the affected people, they must support the legitimate demand for the independence of TE, and allow the Tamils to take care of themselves.
Obviously, wolves and sheep do not live together.
why should we have a inquiry… we should just do what the US Armed chief does when he dropped bombs on civilian casulaties,.
HE JUST SAID HE WAS SORRY… so Dr.D, what i dont undersatnd is how this MOON guy doesnt have a expert panel or inquiry into that but wants us to do one? so if apologize will it be sufficent…
i ask you this since you have being to UN capitals and have handled these people…
Feb. 23, 2010
KANDAHAR, Afghanistan – The commander of U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan went on national television Tuesday to apologize for a deadly airstrike, an extraordinary attempt to regain Afghans’ trust while a mass offensive continues against the Taliban in the south
what is this? isnt this like SL going after the tigers in pudumathanlan?
A national human Rights commission(as proposed by DJ) would surely be an answer to the issue of accountabilty:which has emerged as a perpetual pest to our soverignity . However with the present conduct of the government, it would not be so soon that they would start using this same body to nab anyone considered under the label “enemy”, meaning anyone acting against the whims and wishes of the government, to be prosecuted for countless murders and disapearences carried out under the present regime.
Groundviews:
“Please let us in on the source of this information, since we hope you recognise that heresay and conjecture are of no use in robust discussions on war crimes and crimes against humanity.”
Absolutely right. If Shoba has incriminating info or evidence, then she must come forward with it. Otherwise, it will be pure conjecture. Not that it might not have happened as others have pointed out that it has been the same modus operandi and most only know too well that it is a part and parcel of the “war without witnesses” programme. Otherwise how could GR emphatically deny any wrong doing? The evidence is systematically being destroyed.
Sameera,
“HE JUST SAID HE WAS SORRY… so Dr.D, what i dont undersatnd is how this MOON guy doesnt have a expert panel or inquiry into that but wants us to do one? so if apologize will it be sufficent… ” Shameera, Are you serious? SInce you are unable to see any difference between the two, let me point out just a few: The allegations are that SL Govt. ordered to shoot enemy combatants surrendering with white flag – the allegations were confirmed by SF, then part of the Government. It is the Government that prohibited any witnesses by banning all journalists whether local or foreign. In the case of US -Afgan, you think anything remotely similar to that happened?
well AJ, in that case do you see anyone asking the US forces to stop using heavy wepons. what about drones killing civilians –
where is the proof for these alegations?
NY times has this on yesterday
“KABUL, Afghanistan — Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, the top American commander in Afghanistan, has brought most American Special Operations forces under his direct control for the first time, out of concern over continued civilian casualties and disorganization among units in the field. ”
continued civilian casulaties sound like go in kill any thing walking attitude? so is that also US government order?
Sri Lanka’s majority suffers from a ‘minority complex’ that is seeing everyone as an enemy. Today the urgent need is NGO assistance to internally displaced Tamil refugees; but this is severely restricted by Rajapaksa govt.
Similarly successive Sri Lanka governments Subjugated Tamils under various guises since Britain left in 1948. The LTTE ‘terrorism’ was a result of state violence unleashed on unarmed Tamils for decades.
Perhaps Sri Lanka state has to do the following to do away with triumphalism and for lasting peace:
1. Issue an unconditional apology to Tamils for a brutal subjugation of Tamil rights, starting from disenfranchisement act in 1948 and state organized pogroms in 1956, 1958, 1977 and 1983; and conducting several deliberate policies for the past 60 plus years to uproot Tamils from the island and dismantling their social fabric for years to come.
2. Establish a GoSL reparation fund using all the ransom money that was raised through “white van” kidnappings and enforced disappearances as documented by US State Dept. just past week, along with other aid funds misused by Rajapaksa govt. as documented by Transparency International.
3. Full investigation of “war crimes”, set up of “reconciliation commission” and a political solution for Sri lanka’s all minorities by devolution of power to build a lasting peace.
“well AJ, in that case do you see anyone asking the US forces to stop using heavy wepons. what about drones killing civilians –”
First of all, Afghanistan is a NATO effort. So there is no point blaming just the USA for casualties. And secondly, all the casualties are accounted for. While that does not necessarily justify casualties in every instance, it is sufficient for the purposes of damage control. In the SL case, there was no attempt at damage control – journalists were barred, no-fire zones were shelled, even hospitals were shelled. After the war, MR claimed that there were “zero civilian casualties.” Again, damage control is very important in modern warfare; one does not merely fight to win, but to secure the support of potentially hostile populations that bear the brunt of military aggression. This is quite a few steps above collateral damage, that infamous euphemism which frequently pops up in military news.
Dear Sam Thambipillai,
“The war was an independence war for Tamil Eelam(TE), which could have been politically resolved. But that was not done.”
Is that a Tongue in cheek comment or what?
If it was an INDEPENDENCE struggle why did you dessert it and fight it by PROXY using Children to do a Man’s Job?
If you and your kind had the GUTS to join the Sun God, you would have won your TE. Sun God was short of Manpower not Arms and Munitions.
Please explain why the Civilians were targeted?
That includes Tamils, Muslims, Sinhalese and all other Ethnicities.
Why were the Children, the Unborn, Women and men none of who were combatants Targeted?
What do you call the Indian enforced solution that the LTTE abrogated?
Was it a military solution or a Political one?
Sections of the Tamil Diaspora blindly supported the LTTE’s terror at home and its political articulation of people as weapons of mass suicide. In turn they became accomplices in extending its dreadful fiat over the Tamil social and political space within Western democracies. Without batting an eyelid, this same Diaspora is using human rights campaigns to challenge the Lankan government. They enhanced the legitimate stories of profound suffering of their people with well-publicised lies that the people were staying with the LTTE willingly, all the while denying as always its abuse of children and blaming the Government squarely for all their ills.
Does the above description fit you Sam?
AJ,
“The allegations are that SL Govt. ordered to shoot enemy combatants surrendering with white flag – the allegations were confirmed by SF, then part of the Government.”
Exactly how do you propose to prove this? SF retracted the comments because he said that in order to gain an election upper hand. He realised what a mistake that was. It is so obvious. SF is an enemy of MR. You can’t take everything he says against MR because he has an agenda. If he wasn’t running for political office against MR at the time he said this non sense then some credibility may have been given. Even then it’s one’s word against another’s.
Dear Observer,
No one needs to prove whether SF was truthful or not – and whether SF has his agenda or not is not the concern.
SL prevented any witnesses, and continues to obstruct any objective investigation. The allegations come not merely from Pro-LTTE, but from several others including SF (and Channel 4, several NGO’s, etc). Given that, SL’s obstinate refusal for an impartial investigation does not help clear it’s image that is rapidly deteriorating, but instead only adds to suspicions.
So, don’t divert this as a call for investigating SF’s impartiality – rather, my point is that SL should either allow independent verification to prove that it did not violate conditions to which it was a signatory, or own-up and apologize if indeed it has. It cannot circumvent by merely declaring “we did not kill any civiilians – take our word for it and close the chapter”. Convenient, perhaps — but irrational and irresponsible.
Dear Shameer — frankly, I am not clear where you were going with your line of defense – may be Heshan was more astute in addressing your point.
Dear Observer – an additional observation:
In your last para you have unwittingly confirmed the fact that the SL Admin is not honour-bound, given that they are indeed prone to not telling the truth to meet their selfish ends. It is “one’s word against the other” – Can you now understand why the Internationals, the Diaspora and perhaps the few left-over “civil types” that DJ loves to hate, feel an impartial investigation is the way to go if SL wants to prove its innocence on HR violations as per the code-of-conduct for a civilized nation that we agreed to in the first place?
If there was a justifiable exception, well then, it is time for owning up and for an apt apology – not for unrelenting denial in a vacuum.
Dear AJ Perera,
Allegations can be made by anybody. It can be based on the truth or conjecture. Are the alegations that you are writing about based on Conjecture or the Truth?
I believe its CONJECTURE.
“SL prevented any witnesses, and continues to obstruct any objective investigation. The allegations come not merely from Pro-LTTE, but from several others including SF (and Channel 4, several NGO’s, etc). Given that, SL’s obstinate refusal for an impartial investigation does not help clear it’s image that is rapidly deteriorating, but instead only adds to suspicions.”
Please visit the UN web site and watch Dayan J’s speech in defense of SL.
Any Sri Lankan with patriotism towards his/her country would have been absolutely proud of Dayan’s performance at the UN. The Challenge he threw by offering an International inquiry on SL provided that such inquiries begin from the beginning without excluding the criminal actions of the sponsors of the resolution on Sri Lanka had all of them stumped and speechless.
Sri Lanka threw down the gauntlet but no one was brave enough or willing to pick it up. That offer is STILL on the Table why do you think “NO ONE” is willing to take it up?
You have brought up CH4 video. Please provide the EVIDENCE you have to support and identify the following. If you cannot find any evidence you should think twice before you propagate your imagination as gospel.
1. Country where the purported crime was Committed
2. Place where the purported crime was Committed
3. Time when the purported Crime was Committed
4. Identity of the Criminals
5. Identity of the Victims
6. Bodies of the Victims
7. Murder weapons
8. Eye witnesses that have come forward to give evidence
Now have a look at this BBC documentary
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_5040000/newsid_5042700/5042762.stm?bw=nb&mp=wm&news=1&ms3=2&ms_javascript=true&bbcws=2
Please COMPARE the BBC video’s to that of CH4
Answers to ALL the above are available in support of the Alleged Criminal Violations of HUMAN RIGHTS committed by the US led Allied forces but NONE are available in support of CH4.
This is the reason that the “Offer of Investigations” by SL, still on the table at the UN, has “NO TAKERS”
There is NOTHING left for Lanka to prove.
This is quite the opposite of what you are trying to project.
AJ – what we feel is that UN is a incompetemt body to carry out any sort of investigation. there first priority is to stop invasions by countries, so how can the UN say its world body if it couldnt stop a one sided attack into iraq by US led parties looking for the elusive WMD. what about gaza attack by Israel. have the UN appointed experts on the white phosperous usage?
thereafter, US or UK is also not a ideal party to advise SL on humand rights when there have been incident such as waterboarding, civilian deaths invasions –
so therefore, SL will manage what ever on its own, and UN should just keep looking at climate conrol which they messed up anyway…
Dear Off the Cuff,
You ask “Are the allegations that you are writing about based on Conjecture or the Truth?” If we already knew that, then they wouldn’t be just allegations any more – right? That is precisely why allegations, particularly coming from multiple sources, call for investigation to determine if they were conjectures or truth. I am not sure which segment of that logic escapes your insights.
You are certainly entitled to your belief. But, to assume that you are somehow divinely blessed to “know” it is Conjecture is presumptuous, at best.
As for the patriotic pride that you mention, may I point out that a better part of the near 300 million US citizens were proud of Colin Powell at his delivery in the UN – that patriotic pride was to evaporate rather hurriedly, with Powell himself, unable to bear the shame associated with that delivery, resigning from office. He was a gentleman and he was courageous. All men make mistakes – but true men take responsibility for their mistakes. On your plea for patriotic pride I was reminded of the famous pronouncement “patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrels.” If you would only take a moment to lift a corner of your patriotic shroud, perhaps that will make way for some light.
Please don’t attempt smoke and mirrors to divert attention. I am not accusing SL of HR violations. I am not offering to prove violations or to establish credibility of the accusers. All I am saying is that the allegations are significant enough to warrant investigations.
Trying to squirm out with irrational dismissals and disingenuous accusations and demonizing is uncivil and cowardly.
Take the C4 example that you so painstakingly compiled. If the analysts that SL chose have proved beyond our own doubt that the tape was indeed fake then why not open it up for some independent analysis – outside of SL’s control and interest? Of course SL does not have to go by the analysis initiated by the Tamil forum. They don’t have to even take BBC’s word on the independent analysis that BBC arranged. Why not invite a prestigious University – MIT, Cambridge, or some other who would not risk their prestige by cowing down to any political or other influences, even from the power-nations. Better still; invite multiple universities across different nations to see if the results are convincingly singular or a mixed bag with no firm finding. That will straighten out all false allegations and shut the accusers up. SL can even demand that UN, BBC, Britain, US or any other interested party to foot the bill!
Let me restate my point. I have no way of knowing “which is” and “which is not” the truth. I cannot, and have no intention of even pretending to prove anything. However, as a citizen of a civilized world, I have an obligation to support efforts that seek justice –justice is in the long-term interest of the nation.
SL Govt insists zero civilian casualty. Multiple sources have brought allegations to the contrary and that threatens to tarnish my country’s name (saw a headline just today, attributed to G.L.Peries: ‘The International threats mounting against SL are grave”). SL is a signatory to UN and has been, and aspires to remain, a civilized nation. On those counts, we have an obligation to clear our name by allowing independent investigation without stonewalling if we are certain we did nothing wrong. Why are we so investigation-shy, if we didn’t do anything wrong?
If we are sincere then we should have the courage to defend what we did. Are we such cowards that we cannot stand-by and justify our own actions? Are we so insecure and inept that we would fear being tested on rules and regulations that we ourselves agreed to as essential for the global good?
If we are confident we did not violate HR provisions that we agreed to, we should allow the investigation that will exonerate us. If we suspect that while our actions were all justifiable, they did indeed result in unintended or unavoidable HR violation, then certainly we should not claim “zero casualty”, but rather regret such excesses, and still defend our actions. If, on the other hand, the HR violations were indeed intentional, then we need to have the courage and humility to accept responsibility and face the consequences. That is the right and honorable thing for the braves – not dismissing, not obstructing, not running-shy. That is essential in the long-term interest of the country, even if it is painful in the near term. We need to learn to look beyond our collective noses.
Dear Shameer:
Your argument is delightfully primitive. In deference to your time and mine, I will limit myself to your opening, “what we feel is that UN is an incompetent body to carry out any sort of investigation.” At every opportunity in the past two decades at least, we pushed and prodded UN to scrutinize the activities of LTTE and its minions, both here at home and in every corner of the world. With UN’s help we successfully got LTTE banned in several dozens of countries. Now that the UN is turning the flash-light on us, you have suddenly realized how incompetent the UN is! How convenient!. Or, perhaps you are right – may be it is their incompetence that fashioned their ruling on LTTE too! May be we should ask Radhika C, a distinguished expert in that incompetent body!
“SL prevented any witnesses, and continues to obstruct any objective investigation. The allegations come not merely from Pro-LTTE, but from several others including SF (and Channel 4, several NGO’s, etc). ”
AJ, again SF has not alleged. It’s a retracted political comment. Politicians do LIE from time to time for their own purposes.
“we did not kill any civiilians – take our word for it and close the chapter”
You’re taking what the government is saying incorrectly. What the government is insisting on is that civilians were not directly, intentionally targeted nor harmed which is what would amount to a war crime. That from the information I am privy to, do believe is the truth and will defend it until credible evidence is provided proving otherwise.
“I am not accusing SL of HR violations.”
Wow, you sure do beat around the bush a lot!
We have yet to see ANY evidence that “Sri Lanka valiantly upholded [sic] human rights…”.
Belle, the evidence is freeing your brethren from the megalomanic, sociopath dictator that was prabakaran. No more child soldiers! How’s that for a start?
Aj,
“No one needs to prove whether SF was truthful or not – and whether SF has his agenda or not is not the concern.”
Ummm….. YES YOU DO! If you’re going to give credibility to what he said and later retracted as if it is still his position. If you read the recent damning character analysis done by his one time media ally (on record) Fredrica Janzs, the man is not that perfect. All the women, the hot temper, vindictive personality etc. etc. He’s a brutal fighter and that’s it.
http://www.thesundayleader.lk/2010/03/14/from-hero-to-villain-the-rise-and-fall-of-general-fonseka/
Dear AJ Perera,
The word “Believe” that I used in my post has suddenly changed to the word “Know” in yours. Please refrain from changing what I write.
“….. But, to assume that you are somehow divinely blessed to “know” it is Conjecture is presumptuous, at best.”
What you have done is dishonest at best. Who is presumptuous and dishonest now AJ?
I do not believe in Divinity and hence is not blessed by Divinity.
“If we already knew that, then they wouldn’t be just allegations any more – right? ‘
Wrong.
Even if you KNOW it to be true it is still referred to as an Allegation until proven legally. In the cases you refer to, even if you personally have first hand knowledge of the truth they have to be referred to as an Allegation.
In order to take it to court you have to establish a “Prima Facie” case which is why I asked the 8 questions.
I note that you avoided answering the 8 questions
As you admit in your statement below, let alone establishing a Prima Facie case you don’t even have an inkling about the authenticity of CH4.
“I have no way of knowing “which is” and “which is not” the truth. I cannot, and have no intention of even pretending to prove anything. “
We are not discussing Colin Powel but Dayan J and his offer on behalf of Sri Lanka of an International, Impartial, and Independent inquiry into the ALLEGED Human Rights Violations.
That offer and the conditions of that offer are STILL ON THE TABLE so you have no right to say that Lanka is blocking an inquiry.
What Lanka wants is a “JUST LEGAL ENVIRONMENT” under which such an inquiry can be done that will apply to every country across the board without exceptions.
She has already submitted to an inquiry under such an environment. Who is delaying the creation of that environment? It is not SL by any means.
If you have any arguments as to why the scales should not be held even, please let us hear them.
Why is it that people who make a lot of noise about an inquiry on CH4, AFRAID to campaign for a JUST LEGAL ENVIRONMENT to which EVERY COUNTRY SUBMITS for similar probes?
“However, as a citizen of a civilized world, I have an obligation to support efforts that seek justice –justice is in the long-term interest of the nation.”
Laudable aim and I agree with it wholeheartedly.
Sri Lanka is not stone walling independent inquiries but she will not submit to selective ones. If you want an inquiry fine but make sure the rules apply to everyone across the board.
That is what “JUSTICE” means right?
Every one is EQUAL before the Law is it not?
Now THAT IS WHAT A CITIZEN OF THE CIVILIZED WORLD SHOULD DEMAND Justice for all, unless you have another hidden agenda.
The long-term interest of the nation is why Sri Lanka refuses selective inquiries not because she is afraid as you imply.
You see it’s not Sri Lanka which is hiding but those who are asking for an inquiry.
You should compare the BBC video against the CH4
When CH4 is held against the BBC three, CH4 becomes insignificant in comparison. CH4 cannot even establish the Country where it was perpetrated let alone when and where. Has absolutely no evidence about the perpetrators. Absolutely no evidence who the victims are. No corpses, No murder weapons etc
In contrast, evidence is available for everything the US Soldiers committed. These Atrocious Human Rights Violations include gang rape of Children and cold blooded murders. All these are ESTABLISHED cases.
Just because a GRAPHIC video is missing showing US soldiers Gang Raping a 14 year old kid while she is allowed to hear her parents being MURDERED in the next room and later being shot and burnt herself does not make such crimes less significant than the CH4. In fact that crime is more heinous than CH4 as it was pre planned for weeks. No video is available for this one but records are.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_5040000/newsid_5042700/5042762.stm?bw=nb&mp=wm&news=1&ms3=2&ms_javascript=true&bbcws=2
Weigh the available EVIDENCE dispassionately and tell us which has a Prima Facie case and which hasn’t.
“All these are ESTABLISHED cases. ”
Established cases which have been thoroughly investigated. Established cases in which the perpetrators have been punished. As I proved in the other thread, you cannot even name 7 cases involving the US military where no investigation has begun and the culprits have gotten away scot-free.
As for this Ch4 hype by the patriots, the fact of the matter is that SL forensics is extremely limited. The expertise is simply lacking altogether. So any investigation would have to come from the outside, e.g. foreign experts. That’s why you can find many cases where Scotland Yard has been brought in, e.g. Trinco 5. In other words, if there was to be an objective investigation, it would have to come from the outside, regardless.
“No more child soldiers! How’s that for a start?”
Now the child soldiers are held at Boosa, Welikade and such places! All 20,000 of the ex-LTTE who voluntarily surrendered after the war – supposedly being “rehabilitated” SL style. Thus far, the “King” has freed about 745 ex-LTTE. Good luck to the remaining 19255…
But what’s funny about this “rehabilitation” is that many ex-LTTE in IDP camps paid their way out. What then is the need for rehabilitation? Is the “King” going to find them employment? There are enough qualified university grads who can’t find a decent job. Maybe the “King” is looking for a 10% commission…
Off the Cuff
“The Challenge he threw by offering an International inquiry on SL provided that such inquiries begin from the beginning without excluding the criminal actions of the sponsors of the resolution on Sri Lanka had all of them stumped and speechless”
Actually, I am speechless, too. Implicit in Dayan’s argument: he appears to admit that there were criminal actions committed by the SL regime save that “let those who have not sinned cast the first stone”. Going by his argument, and his often admitted remark of acceptable collateral damage, it appears he, too, is as culpable as the regime.
BTW, you are just being evasive. Why the refusal to have independent investigation? What has the regime got to hide? It is a known fact that the SL regime has no credibility at all in conducting a fair investigation within the country.
I am baffled by the empathy of the people eventhough thousands of its own citizens have been murdered. I wish you can join Dayan to support the business community and the chamber of commerce which is unashamedly appealing to the EU to reinstate the GSP plus, suspended for the gross lack of observance of human rights. Instead, all they had to do was to appeal to their own govt to stop the gross violation of human rights and establish a process of accountability for the large number of civilians murdered by two recalcitrant psychopaths – the SL regime and the LTTE. When the answer is closer to home it appears cynical that their appeal tacitly agrees to the commission of such heinous crimes by the SL regime which, by their actions, agrees it is ok to commit such crimes.
“The Challenge he threw by offering an International inquiry on SL provided that such inquiries begin from the beginning without excluding the criminal actions of the sponsors of the resolution on Sri Lanka had all of them stumped and speechless.”
For the sake of completeness, what about those who opposed such an inquiry against SL? Let’s begin with China… it would be very hard to find a greater violator of HR than China. I don’t know who else opposed the resolution, but I have a funny feeling most of them are 3rd world nations with not so lovely HR records. The same China, and her friend Russia (another *champion* of HR) consistently oppose harsher UN action against Iran… on the other hand, these two also do quite a big business with Iran. So this argument about HR violators forcing less powerful nations to carry out investigations is really a relative one… while all have no doubt sinned, the biggest violators are from the third-world nations. Logically speaking, the biggest violators should be investigated first. Which would then justify an investigation into SL.
And finally, I don’t think the Western nations backed down SL because of Dayan J’s semantic tricks. I’m sure the USA has plenty of satellite imagery related to the end of the war that would easily speak for itself. To be honest, I don’t know why they backed down – maybe it was not worth their time to chase after such an insignificant dot on the map, which does not harbor either Muslim extremists or contain copious amounts of oil.
““No more child soldiers! How’s that for a start?”
Now the child soldiers are held at Boosa, Welikade and such places! All 20,000 of the ex-LTTE who voluntarily surrendered after the war – supposedly being “rehabilitated” SL style. Thus far, the “King” has freed about 745 ex-LTTE. Good luck to the remaining 19255…
But what’s funny about this “rehabilitation” is that many ex-LTTE in IDP camps paid their way out. What then is the need for rehabilitation? Is the “King” going to find them employment? There are enough qualified university grads who can’t find a decent job. Maybe the “King” is looking for a 10% commission…”
The UN and the international community hopelessly failed in providing any safe guards for LTTE child soldiers, who were abducted from families and used as even suicide bombers! Not only that they prevented the SL gov from taking decisive action against the matter by destroying the LTTE. While at the same time letting money and weapons flow under their noses into the hands of these children. Until MR came and said enough is enough, LTTE has to go!
Hehsan, what you’re saying now is like a homeless man getting a house and then complaining that the plumbing isn’t good enough. Patience my friend. When a human being is indoctrinated in hatred and violence from a very young age, the rehabilitation process can be extremely difficult.
Dear Jansee,
“Implicit in Dayan’s argument: he appears to admit that there were criminal actions committed by the SL regime save that “let those who have not sinned cast the first stone”.”
War is a Crime as people DIE when war is waged. Can you name ANY war where people did not die? Hence every country that has engaged in any type of war is guilty of crime. It is futile to argue this point as that is a fact of war.
“BTW, you are just being evasive”
Is pointing out a FACT being evasive?
“Why the refusal to have independent investigation?”
SL has already SUBMITTED herself to an independent investigation but under a JUST system that is applicable EQUALLY to every Country. The question really is, why there is opposition to establishing such a Just system where EVERY COUNTRY IS EQUALLY ACCOUNTABLE without any exception?
Do you have an answer?
Your question therefore becomes irrelevant.
“What has the regime got to hide?”
Nothing.
Again your question is irrelevant as Lanka has already submitted herself to an investigation on her own volition. She is ONLY asking for a system under which such investigations can be carried out where Justice Reigns SUPREME and EVERYONE becomes accountable and is treated EQUALLY before the LAW.
Is that too much to ask?
You need to re-read my post.
Jansee, I believe that you are a member of the Tamil Diaspora. If you are not please disregard the following paragraph as it applies to the Tamil Diaspora.
“I am baffled by the empathy of the people even though thousands of its own citizens have been murdered.”
You need not be baffled they (the Tamils of the Vanni) were at the receiving end of the LTTE’s Fascism and the inhumanity of the Tamil Diaspora who were waging a war by proxy, against the Lankan State, using the Vanni Children as cannon fodder. Their Children.
Sections of the Tamil Diaspora blindly supported the LTTE’s terror at home and its political articulation of people as weapons of mass suicide. In turn they became accomplices in extending its dreadful fiat over the Tamil social and political space within Western democracies. Without batting an eyelid, this same Diaspora is using human rights campaigns to challenge the Lankan government. They enhanced the legitimate stories of profound suffering of their people with well-publicised lies that the people were staying with the LTTE willingly, all the while denying as always its abuse of children and blaming the Government squarely for all their ills.
Heshan,
US soldiers go on a rampage in Iraq, Gang Raping and Mass murdering Iraqi Civilians and Children. Performing atrocious and degrading sex acts on prisoners at Abu Gharib, The yet unknown atrocities of Torture alleged to have happened at Guantanamo, the special renditions that took place in and via Diego Garcia are other alleged incidents that warrant the much touted “Independent, International, Impartial investigations”. US Mercenaries from the Blackwater Company go on the rampage in Iraq with their own killing spree. Independent International Investigations to all these have been stonewalled by the US govt.
These Inhuman Crimes were committed on Iraqi Soil on Iraqi civilians and Iraqi Law should apply. The US Govt prevents the Pro US, Iraqi Govt from investigating and prosecuting anyone. Instead they have their own so called “Investigation” and their own “Trials”.
What is the US afraid of, if they have not done anything wrong?
Why do they have to resort to SHAM courts martial and SHAM prosecutions?
Why is the US govt SHY of Independent, International, Impartial investigations?
Why resort to a COVER up IF they have not done anything wrong?
You have referred to the other thread and your so called “proof”.
I will let the reader judge for themselves the standard of proof that you present
http://www.groundviews.org/2010/01/13/standing-the-world-on-its-head/comment-page-6/#comment-14665
(the above post is addressed to Cengal and the discourse is very long. Heshan enters the discourse lower down)
“As for this Ch4 hype by the patriots, the fact of the matter is that SL forensics is extremely limited. The expertise is simply lacking altogether. So any investigation would have to come from the outside, e.g. foreign experts. That’s why you can find many cases where Scotland Yard has been brought in, e.g. Trinco 5. In other words, if there was to be an objective investigation, it would have to come from the outside, regardless.”
Why are you so Naive Heshan?
Outsiders were brought in for the sake of “Impartiality” not because Lanka lacks the experts to do it on her own. Get real Heshan.
Regarding CH4 lets see whether you have a Prima Facie case. Please give direct answers to the following without trying to circumvent them.
1. What is the Country where the purported crime was Committed?
2. Where is the Place where the purported crime was Committed?
3. When was the purported Crime Committed?
4. What is the Identity of the Criminals?
5. Can you Identity any of the Victims?
6. Can you produce the Bodies of the Victims?
7. Have the Murder weapons been found?
8. Are there any Eye witnesses that have come forward to give evidence?
Since you have watched the BBC Video
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_5040000/newsid_5042700/5042762.stm?bw=nb&mp=wm&news=1&ms3=2&ms_javascript=true&bbcws=2
see whether you can answer the same questions regarding the alleged incidents and those that I have referred to in my post to Cengal at the link given earlier.
The proof Heshan, rests in your ability to provide DIRECT answers to the 8 relevant questions that can show a Prima Facie case can be established.
Correction
She is ONLY asking for a system under which such investigations can be carried out where Justice Reigns SUPREME and EVERYONE becomes accountable and is treated EQUALLY before the LAW.
Apologies for the error
Heshan,
“it would be very hard to find a greater violator of HR than China”
Not that difficult if you are prepared to be Honest. The answer is closer to home than you are willing to admit.
“while all have no doubt sinned,”
For once a truthful statement
But followed up with a lie “biggest violators are from the third-world nations”
Funny logic in this statement though
“Logically speaking, the biggest violators should be investigated first.”
I always thought CRIMES are investigated in chronological order. Probably in the USA petty and less grave crimes are put on the back burner until the GRAVE CRIMES of Rape, Murder and Armed Robbery are dealt with. Which of course in the USA, will never end, as new grave crimes will come up by the time the old get disposed.
Off the Cuff:
“These Inhuman Crimes were committed on Iraqi Soil on Iraqi civilians and Iraqi Law should apply.”
I never denied that such crimes happen. On the other hand, I would not go so far as to say every abuse you mentioned actually occurred. I am interested only in the existence of an investigation and possible punishment. Whether the investigation is carried out by the Americans or the Iraqi’s does not really matter… although it is probably better if the Americans carry out the investigation, since the Iraqi’s do not have forensic expertise.
The proof I gave in the other thread still stands. I asked you to make a list of 7 or more seven incidents involving the US military where an impartial investigation has not occurred. Considering that the US has been in Iraq for more than 5 years now, you should be able to find 7 seven incidents rather easily.
“Outsiders were brought in for the sake of “Impartiality” not because Lanka lacks the experts to do it on her own.”
Can you name a single world-renowned ballistics expert in Sri Lanka?
Can you name a single world-renowned forensics expert in Sri Lanka?
Regarding your eight questions:
1. What is the Country where the purported crime was Committed?
Sri Lanka
2. Where is the Place where the purported crime was Committed?
This question is similar to one.
3. When was the purported Crime Committed?
This has been answered before.
4. What is the Identity of the Criminals?
Sinhalese army soldiers (SLA).
5. Can you Identity any of the Victims?
Sri Lankan Tamil prisoners (POWS)
6. Can you produce the Bodies of the Victims?
If the perpetrators are caught and thoroughly interrogated, they might reveal the whereabouts of the victims. It also depends on how the bodies were disposed of.
7. Have the Murder weapons been found?
No doubt they can be identified on the video tape itself and positively identified with weapons that a Sri Lankan Army soldier would emply.
8. Are there any Eye witnesses that have come forward to give evidence?
Is the Sri Lankan Army going to offer such eye-witnesses any safety for testifying? Why did Dr. Manoharan, the father of one of the victims in the Trinco 5 case, have to flee S. Lanka and testify from a foreign country, via video-conference?
You did not ask two of the most important questions:
9. Is the tape genuine?
Yes.
10. Is there a pattern of similar abuses in the country where said incident is said to have taken place?
Yes. Refer to the stripping of dead LTTE cadres after the attacks on Anuradhapura airforce base.
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0ecW1Zt0qS01E/610x.jpg
Correction in 8:
Should read as: Is the Sri Lankan Government going to offer such eye-witnesses any safety
Off the Cuff:
“Not that difficult if you are prepared to be Honest. The answer is closer to home than you are willing to admit.”
No doubt. I fully agree. One only has to go to Tibet. All the destroyed Buddhist monasteries, all of the Tibetans jailed by China, and the inability of the Dalai Lama, the spiritual leader of the Tibetan Buddhists, to live in his own country.
These are the kind of friends of Sri Lanka who supported Dayan J’s resolution to block any investigation.
“I always thought CRIMES are investigated in chronological order.”
The scale of the crime takes precedent over the chronological order.
Off the Cuff:
“War is a Crime as people DIE when war is waged. Can you name ANY war where people did not die? Hence every country that has engaged in any type of war is guilty of crime. It is futile to argue this point as that is a fact of war.”
Does that include indiscriminate bombing of hospitals? Well, it appears you have not or pretend not to know the mandatory rules of engagement in war situations. The LTTE was not a democratically elected entity but can the same be said of the SL govt? If you have forgotten (or pretend as if you do not know or have not heard) the SL regime waged the war with a highly publicised claim as a humanitarian operation to free the people from the clutches of the LTTE. How deceitful? No one is disputing the fatalities that comes with the war but precise and clear rules exist on the avoiding of civilian casualties in large numbers. SL literally murdered more than 20,000 civilians. It totally disregarded the welfare of the civilians and so please do not lecture me on as these murders as facts of war.
“Is pointing out a FACT being evasive?”
What are your facts anyway? Is rattling like the dubious foreign minister facts, too? Everything about this regime is heinous and there is not even an ounce of credibility that remains with this regime.
“SL has already SUBMITTED herself to an independent investigation but under a JUST system that is applicable EQUALLY to every Country. The question really is, why there is opposition to establishing such a Just system where EVERY COUNTRY IS EQUALLY ACCOUNTABLE without any exception?
Do you have an answer?
Your question therefore becomes irrelevant.”
Ah, there you guys go again? Every investigation by the SL regime has come to nought. The Eminent Persons, appointed by the President left with a disappointing note and I don’t have to say why. The SL regime is notorious for shifting its goalposts to bluff its way through except that this time the noose is getting tighter around the neck. Credibility is an alien word to the SL regime. In actuality, UNSG Ban gave ample opportunities to MR to conduct an accountability process within the country. Just continuing to shift the dates is a ploy everyone can see through. The fact is, SL cannot be trusted to conduct its own credible process of accountability. The history is there for all to see. Neither the regime nor the Sinhalese majority will ever agree to the accountability issues and there is no other way except to drag the regime to stand before an international tribunal. And this time, hold your breath, the criminals will be nailed.
“You need not be baffled they (the Tamils of the Vanni) were at the receiving end of the LTTE’s Fascism and the inhumanity of the Tamil Diaspora who were waging a war by proxy, against the Lankan State, using the Vanni Children as cannon fodder. ”
Whatever happened to the so-called humanitarian operation? Everyone found out with horror that it was anything but humanitarian. Bombing unarmed civilians and hospitals was indiscriminate, if you know the meaning of the word. Yes, the LTTE forced children to take up arms, but babies, elderly and others who did not fit into this category were maimed and murdered by a ruthless regime. It has somewhat become common knowledge what actually happened there. While there is no way the LTTE can be put in the dock as it is no more, surely the SL regime will be made to answer for its heinous crimes. The end game has just started and those 20000 (or 40000) innocent lives were not lost in vain, murdered by a ruthless regime.
‘Does that include indiscriminate bombing of hospitals? ‘
Buildings teaming with LTTE soldiers become hospitals because they claim it is? It’s not up to debate whether the LTTE was present at the so called ‘hospitals’. They were with vehicles piled up outside.
‘SL literally murdered more than 20,000 civilians.’
No, it it didn’t. How can you claim everyone living under the LTTE are innocent civilians?They willingly decided to live with the LTTE suggesting that at some level they supported the actions of the LTTE.
And where does that figure of 20,000 come from anyway? London Times was not around anywhere near Sri Lanka.. The U. N. denied this figure and their number of 7,000 possibly including combatants is the only one any reasonable person should consider.
‘Yes, the LTTE forced children to take up arms, but babies, elderly and others who did not fit into this category were maimed and murdered by a ruthless regime.’
The Sri Lankan government immediately allowed the elderly and the young to leave the refugee camps. The LTTE preferred keeping them as shields so the Tamil diaspora can ‘prove’ ‘genocide’. They lost but gosh darn it the poor ‘harmless unarmed’ civilians ‘who had no idea that the Vanni was a war zone’ can now serve as fodder for Eelam grievances.
“1. What is the Country where the purported crime was Committed?
Sri Lanka
2. Where is the Place where the purported crime was Committed?
This question is similar to one.
3. When was the purported Crime Committed?
This has been answered before.
4. What is the Identity of the Criminals?
Sinhalese army soldiers (SLA).
5. Can you Identity any of the Victims?
Sri Lankan Tamil prisoners (POWS)
6. Can you produce the Bodies of the Victims?
If the perpetrators are caught and thoroughly interrogated, they might reveal the whereabouts of the victims. It also depends on how the bodies were disposed of.
7. Have the Murder weapons been found?
No doubt they can be identified on the video tape itself and positively identified with weapons that a Sri Lankan Army soldier would emply.
8. Are there any Eye witnesses that have come forward to give evidence?
Is the Sri Lankan Army going to offer such eye-witnesses any safety for testifying? Why did Dr. Manoharan, the father of one of the victims in the Trinco 5 case, have to flee S. Lanka and testify from a foreign country, via video-conference?
You did not ask two of the most important questions:
9. Is the tape genuine?
Yes.”
So we are supposed to take your base assumptions as fact? What if any evidence is there that the video shows “Sinhalese Sri Lankan soldiers” and the victims are “Sri Lankan Tamil prisoners”?
Alston’s experts merely confirmed that the video wasn’t edited. He didn’t confirm it was from Sri Lanka nor what the identity of the people shown in the video are. In to this equation comes the fact that the Associated Press identifies the confirmed video as the one with Tamil dialogue. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDn3iSKD-Pc
Hmmm..
The LTTE never executed any prisoners of course. When they took over Mullaitivu the burning of 900 army personnel was just an unfortunate accident! The murder of the 600+ POW they had as the war was ending were killed of course unintentionally!
The army has 11,000 + POWs right now. The number must be so high because they’re executing them so quickly.
Heshan,
“I never denied that such crimes happen.
At last, some admission of US Brutality.
“On the other hand, I would not go so far as to say every abuse you mentioned actually occurred.
All of them are on record. Which do you deny?
“I am interested only in the existence of an investigation and possible punishment.
We are interested in Impartial International Investigations. The same thing that is being touted in the case of CH4.
“Whether the investigation is carried out by the Americans or the Iraqi’s does not really matter…
If it does not matter, why did USA stonewall all attempts by the Iraqi’s to prosecute the criminals?
Of course it mattered as that was the ONLY way to ensure a COVER UP.
It was like an investigation, Prosecution and subsequent Judgment delivered by the criminal’s Mother.
The Crimes were committed on Iraqi Civilians on Iraqi Soil and hence the Criminals should be subject to Iraqi Law and Iraqi Courts primarily. The next best thing is an Impartial International Investigation and prosecution in an Impartial International Court like the ICJ. Definitely not subject to a SHAM Prosecution and a COVER UP in the USA.
“although it is probably better if the Americans carry out the investigation, since the Iraqi’s do not have forensic expertise.
Forensic expertise within Iraq would be sufficient to prosecute the criminals in Iraqi courts. The criminals will always have the US Forensic Experts and US lawyers to provide a defence. So what was USA afraid of “if they did no wrong”?
“I asked you to make a list of 7 or more seven incidents involving the US military where an impartial investigation has not occurred.
There was NEVER an International, Impartial, Investigation carried out for ANY of the incidents listed by me and incidents depicted in the BBC videos. Hence not a SINGLE impartial investigation has occurred. SHAM investigations did occur and ALL of them were COVER UPS.
“Can you name a single world-renowned ballistics expert in Sri Lanka?
Can you name a single world-renowned forensics expert in Sri Lanka?
Being “World Renowned” and being able to do your job competently does not necessarily go hand in hand. Do you mean to say that EVERY criminal case in the USA is handled by “World Renowned” Experts? In the University that you say you work in are you accepted as a competent person? If so are you “World Renown” for your expertise?
Is competency judged by your reputation world wide or your ability?
Now we come to your answers
1. What is the Country where the purported crime was Committed?
Your reply Sri Lanka
My counter reply Tamil Nadu or USA or Iraq
Any evidence you can produce to counter what I wrote?
Now have a close look at ALL the Criminal Incidents by the US in Iraq. Every one of them has an IDENTIFIED Country.
2. Where is the Place where the purported crime was Committed?
Your reply – This question is similar to one.
The country can be USA and the place can be Texas. In the CH4 a place cannot be identified. In all the Criminal Incidents by the US in Iraq the place has been identified.
3. When was the purported Crime Committed?
Your reply – This has been answered before.
Unfortunately no. In the CH4 the Date and Time has not been verified. The experts said they can’t do it. In contrast all the Criminal Incidents by the US in Iraq has a confirmed date and time.
4. What is the Identity of the Criminals?
Your reply – Sinhalese army soldiers (SLA)
My counter reply – Tamil LTTE Terrorists
Any evidence you can produce to counter it?
In contrast, for ALL Criminal Incidents by the US in Iraq, All perpetrators have been identified.
5. Can you Identity any of the Victims?
Your reply – Sri Lankan Tamil prisoners (POWS)
My counter reply – Sinhalese army soldiers or Sinhalese/Muslim villagers or some unknown nationality
Any evidence you can produce to counter it?
In contrast, for ALL the Criminal Incidents by the US in Iraq. All VICTIMS have been identified.
6. Can you produce the Bodies of the Victims?
Your reply – If the perpetrators are caught and thoroughly interrogated, they might reveal the whereabouts of the victims. It also depends on how the bodies were disposed of.
Unfortunately you have failed to identify the perpetrators so you can’t catch them. You have no evidence and your statements are based on prejudice or imagination.
In contrast ALL the perpetrators have been identified for US atrocities in Iraq.
7. Have the Murder weapons been found?
Your reply – No doubt they can be identified on the video tape itself and positively identified with weapons that a Sri Lankan Army soldier would emply.
You must be having exceptionally KEEN eyesight to make that statement when referring to a mobile phone video that has been acknowledged to be of low quality.
How can you “Positively identify” when LORRY Loads of SLA weapons have been captured by the LTTE? Be more imaginative Heshan.
In contrast the murder weapons used by the US criminal soldiers have been identified.
8. Are there any Eye witnesses that have come forward to give evidence?
Your reply – Is the Sri Lankan Army going to offer such eye-witnesses any safety for testifying? Why did Dr. Manoharan, the father of one of the victims in the Trinco 5 case, have to flee S. Lanka and testify from a foreign country, via video-conference?
The people who produced the video are already in a foreign country. Any witnesses still in Lanka can easily travel abroad as their identities are unknown, just like Dr. Manoharan. What do they have to fear?
In contrast Eye Witnesses have come forward to testify against the US criminal soldiers.
Now lets look at your new questions.
9. Is the tape genuine?
Your reply – Yes
My reply – Probably yes. But the investigators themselves have expressed doubts as to the Date and Time the video was shot. No Technical evidence has been produced to establish the date and time. However as the Victims can be Sinhalese soldiers or Sinhalese or Muslim villagers or some unknown nationality and the perpetrators can be Tamil Terrorists the tape does not prove anything.
Bottom line the CH4 tape is a dead duck. Alston who decides to press ahead with CH4 but has been consistently BLIND to what the US and her allies have done and are still doing. Investigations are welcome provided they are NOT SELECTIVELY applied.
10. Is there a pattern of similar abuses in the country where said incident is said to have taken place?
In the case of US soldiers there are several. Remember Abu Gahrib and the Sex acts on LIVE prisoners? All of them were stripped NAKED and ABUSED.
The 14 year old Girl Child Stripped naked, Raped and Burnt?
Those people were ALIVE when they were ABUSED not dead.
Hence you cannot justify an unsupported GRAPHIC video using the emotion that it was intended to generate. The pre planned Rape, torture and massacre of a 14 year girl Child and her family is a far more serious crime that is supported by evidence than the CH4 can ever hope to have. The only thing missing is a GRAPHIC video but the crime is more heinous. So let’s have a GRAPHIC description instead.
Imagine how the child’s clothes were stripped off her body. How many held her down to immobilize her while the first one took her virginity? Imagine the searing pain that went through her body. Imagine her screams. How many kept repeatedly raping her with blood and semen pouring down her vagina? The pain she suffered when her breasts were abused and they squeezed and bit into her. Imagine her fear when she heard the first shot from the next room where her parents and family were murdered. Imagine her fear when she kept hearing shots again and again. How many shots would she have heard? What would she have felt when Green the murderer of her Family stood up above her body and dropped his pants while she was being held down by the others. When he dropped on her and started abusing her body and raping her repeatedly until his carnal desires were satisfied. Then placing a pillow on her face and shooting her. Imagine the pain that she would have suffered when a blanket was thrown on her and that was set alight. She may have been alive when they set fire to her.
Would you stay quietly if this was your own child. So why not give it the same thing you are asking for CH4? Why not give it an Independent, International Investigation?
All the following crimes carry the death penalty in the US
Murder related to rape or child molestation.
Murder related to sexual exploitation of children.
Murder involving torture.
Murder committed by the use of a firearm during a crime of violence
All the above offenses were committed in that SINGLE incident but what was the punishment? Life in prison for Green and not even that for the rest who are ALL guilty of the same crime.
The criminals who perpetrated a similar crime on US soil would have all been executed. But this was in Iraq and the child was Iraqi so a lesser punishment would suffice. Simply have a SHAM prosecution and SHAM punishment.
I am not providing excuses for abusing the dead. But your Holier than Thou attitude and white washing unimaginable crimes perpetrated by the US and Justifying the denial of justice by the US cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.
Off the Cuff:
I suggest you go through the above list very carefully and suggest which punishments you disagree with, indicate where there was a cover-up, and why Alston should investigate.
Heshan,
“The scale of the crime takes precedent over the chronological order.”
Aha Really, …..so how do you classify the following as per your “SCALE”?
1. The carpet Fire Bombing of Dresden
2. The Atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki
3. More recently, the incessant Cruise Missile and bombing attacks on Iraq
4. The Siege of Baghdad when even water, electricity and Hospital access were cut off to the civilians and many died as a result
5. The atrocities committed in Iraq.
6. The atrocities that are being committed in Pakistan and Afghanistan
7. Bloody Sunday massacres in UK
8. Massacres commited by Australian forces in Afghanistan
9. Attacks on civilians by Israel
10. Depopulation (complete expulsion / Ethnic cleansing) of residents of Diego Garcia by the British
11. CH4 video
Just to name a few
Interesting to see the order in which you classify them using the “SCALE” you just described.
Heshan,
Cant you read?
I have already stated that ALL are Cover Ups. Hence ALL have to be investigated.
Now answer my post of March 22, 2010 @ 3:53 am above, without trying to divert attention.
Do you have EVIDENCE to counter the “counter replies” of mine?
Dear Jansee,
“Does that include indiscriminate bombing of hospitals? Well, it appears you have not or pretend not to know the mandatory rules of engagement in war situations. The LTTE was not a democratically elected entity but can the same be said of the SL govt?
The part regarding the Hospital has been adequately responded to by “PongalThambi”. Glad to see a Decent Tamil who has no fear in speaking out the Truth.
Please Educate us on the Mandatory Rules, while you are at it, please Educate the US led NATO too and don’t leave out Australia either.
True the SL Govt was democratically elected. It had a responsibility of protecting 20 million + citizens. It could not give in to the tactics of the LTTE in holding a Human Shield and Shelling the forces from within the Civilian population of 300,000 approx. and the LTTE flag carrying Tamil Diaspora egging and cheering the Fascists on without ANY thought for the Civilians or the children of the Vanni. SL forces did what it had to do. In fact it did what ANY responsible Govt had to do. It had to save them from the clutches of the Fascists and it did. Some civilians died in the cross fire and some were tortured and shot by the LTTE and the estimate for that is around 7000.
While the Tamil Diaspora were staging mock Death Fasts and eating Big Macs on the Sly the SL forces braved the LTTE Bombs, Suicide attacks and Armour to rescue over 95% of the Tamil civilians held HOSTAGE by your Sun God and his band of Terrorists. How it was done was seen live by the Diplomats in Colombo and the Citizenry of SL.
Sadly your Humanity had surfaced too late in the day. Is it also similar to those “Fasts unto Death” ?
“What are your facts anyway?”
It’s in my post in plain English. Please read it again.
“Ah, there you guys go again? Every investigation by the SL regime has come to nought.”
The offer on the table at the UN is for an INTERNATIONAL investigation. Hope you understand what the word means. It’s not a local investigation. Please Write sense and reply to what has been written not what you imagine.
First you thought that the Sun God was invincible and can achieve your unjust demands and you saw what determination can do to that invincibility within just 3 years. Now you pin your hopes on a Tribunal. Dream on Jansee, dream on. Lanka is up to that task too.
Of course the criminals will be nailed. One of them the Leading Tigress, is currently in the UK. Many more Tigers are still at large. Like KP they will all fall in to the net.
”Whatever happened to the so-called humanitarian operation?”
Over 95% of the Civilians held by your Fascist LTTE Terror were rescued intact. They did not have to fear about having their limbs Amputated any more or shot in the back by the Sun God’s followers as evidenced by Anne Marie Loos of Medicines Sans Frontiers. That’s what happened.
“but babies, elderly and others who did not fit into this category were maimed and murdered by a ruthless regime.”
Is that why 95% of the civilian population were left amongst the Living?
“It totally disregarded the welfare of the civilians and so please do not lecture me on as these murders as facts of war.”
The 95% of the Vanni Tamils who are living today won’t agree with you as you yourself admit. Rather you will have a tough time explaining why you deserted them and encouraged the LTTE instead.
Talking of Lectures, this lecture is not coming from me but from Tamils themselves.
“Sections of the Tamil Diaspora blindly supported the LTTE’s terror at home and its political articulation of people as weapons of mass suicide. In turn they became accomplices in extending its dreadful fiat over the Tamil social and political space within Western democracies. Without batting an eyelid, this same Diaspora is using human rights campaigns to challenge the Lankan government. They enhanced the legitimate stories of profound suffering of their people with well-publicised lies that the people were staying with the LTTE willingly, all the while denying as always its abuse of children and blaming the Government squarely for all their ills.”
Your comments seem to fit their scathing criticism. What do you have to say about that censure on the Tamil Diaspora emanating from a Tamil source? FALSE and UNJUSTIFIED?
Regarding your eight questions:
1. What is the Country where the purported crime was Committed?
Sri Lanka
No cannot be determined. the video is not geo tagged, there are no geographical land marks that are unique to a known location
2. Where is the Place where the purported crime was Committed?
This question is similar to one.
not similar. the question refers to which part of the country. also undetermined. video has no geographical clues as to the exact location
3. When was the purported Crime Committed?
This has been answered before.
According to the time stamp of “original” (questionable) video, after the end of the war. technical evidence that disproves the alleged circumstances of the video. The argument against the time stamp is very very weak.
4. What is the Identity of the Criminals?
Sinhalese army soldiers (SLA).
Undetermined. Identity of (not criminals, as this is not yet established) male figures purported to be wearing SLA uniforms and holding what seems to be weapons or at least replicas of weapons are brown coloured, sub continental looking males.
5. Can you Identity any of the Victims?
Sri Lankan Tamil prisoners (POWS)
Nope. As the victims or possible actors playing the victims are posing nude, does not provide any evidence as to their identity. again the “victims” could belong to any number of racial groups in the Indian sub continental region. In fact so far from established facts this video could have been shot in Tamil Nadu is a possibility that cannot be disproved!
6. Can you produce the Bodies of the Victims?
If the perpetrators are caught and thoroughly interrogated, they might reveal the whereabouts of the victims. It also depends on how the bodies were disposed of.
Highly unlikely! The existence of the bodies is questionable at best
7. Have the Murder weapons been found?
No doubt they can be identified on the video tape itself and positively identified with weapons that a Sri Lankan Army soldier would emply.
Without the bullets matching a weapon that fired them is impossible. Having no clues as to the exact location filmed, finding phantom bullets are good as finding a needle in a hay stack
8. Are there any Eye witnesses that have come forward to give evidence?
Is the Sri Lankan Army going to offer such eye-witnesses any safety for testifying? Why did Dr. Manoharan, the father of one of the victims in the Trinco 5 case, have to flee S. Lanka and testify from a foreign country, via video-conference?
No eyewitnesses have come forward. Not only that, strangely, the group who has put forward this video has failed provide any leads what so ever. Despite the fact they;re claiming to be in exile away from any form of SL state persecution. Also they claim the video was physically smuggled. Why the need to “smuggle” in this day and age where there is freely available high strength data encryption tools and broadband Net connections? This is not a VHS tape.
You did not ask two of the most important questions:
9. Is the tape genuine?
Yes.
Undetermined and highly debatable. Alston’s experts make questionable assumption favourable to their employee in order to reach their conclusion. Besides, digital data cannot be verified without appropriate digital signatures.
10. Is there a pattern of similar abuses in the country where said incident is said to have taken place?
Yes. Refer to the stripping of dead LTTE cadres after the attacks on Anuradhapura airforce base.
Suicide carder sometimes, needs to be stripped to remove the suicide belts they’re hiding, strapped to their bodies. It’s called bomb disposal! It is an established fact that the group that came to attack the Anuradhapura air base was a suicide squad. LTTE has confirmed this. So any bodies in tact are carder who failed to detonate their explosives due to swift action by the SLA SF. Prior to processing these bodies, specialist bomb disposal personnel need to neutralise any explosives that are still wired. btw have you ever been to a morgue? the bodies are naked in bags. They only dress them up for the funeral display.
Off the Cuff:
“While the Tamil Diaspora were staging mock Death Fasts and eating Big Macs on the Sly the SL forces braved the LTTE Bombs, Suicide attacks and Armour to rescue over 95% of the Tamil civilians held HOSTAGE by your Sun God and his band of Terrorists”
And deceitfully locked them up in internment camps with guns pointed at them. How more hilarious you can be? What kind of humanitarian rescue is that?
“Some civilians died in the cross fire and some were tortured and shot by the LTTE and the estimate for that is around 7000″
The SL regime denies any civilian casualties?? This sort of lies by you guys is why the hope or trust is gone that SL would ever conduct an impartial investigation on what happened during the last days of the war. Why the sleazy attitude to cover-up?
“The 95% of the Vanni Tamils who are living today won’t agree with you as you yourself admit.”
The presidential election results prove otherwise that their disgust of a regime that lies through its teeth.
Well, let us see how the noose gets tightened around the neck of murderers?
“And deceitfully locked them up in internment camps with guns pointed at them. How more hilarious you can be? What kind of humanitarian rescue is that?”
having enemy combatants hide among civilians was not hilarious to us. nor was having to process them.
“The SL regime denies any civilian casualties?? ”
SL regime denise intentional civilian casualties. get it right.
“Well, let us see how the noose gets tightened around the neck of murderers?”
don’t embrace the nose so quickly for that it maybe yours. “some of you” can be classified as murderers in some of our eyes. for silently supporting a murderous outfit for 30 decades. contract killing our friends and relatives with your foreign dollars. don;t for a moment think you have washed away the blood on your hands yet. we seek to see you at Hague one day! we haven’t forgotten the blood spilt. it motivated us to seek justice!
Dear Jansee,
I note that you have not challenged the following
“Sections of the Tamil Diaspora blindly supported the LTTE’s terror at home and its political articulation of people as weapons of mass suicide. In turn they became accomplices in extending its dreadful fiat over the Tamil social and political space within Western democracies. Without batting an eyelid, this same Diaspora is using human rights campaigns to challenge the Lankan government. They enhanced the legitimate stories of profound suffering of their people with well-publicised lies that the people were staying with the LTTE willingly, all the while denying as always its abuse of children and blaming the Government squarely for all their ills.”
“And deceitfully locked them up in internment camps with guns pointed at them. How more hilarious you can be? What kind of humanitarian rescue is that? “
The kind that was able to save 95% of the Vanni Tamils.
Did you expect the terrorists who infiltrated the rescued civilians would be allowed out to continue with their suicide attacks on the rest of the 20 million population? That was another miscalculation by you guys. Some say quite a number bribed or sneaked their way out but still 11,000 + were caught.
“The SL regime denies any civilian casualties??”
Nope, that’s not what is claimed. The claim is that not a single civilian was intentionally targeted.
A very different claim to the TWIST that the Diaspora tries to put on it. You give credibility to the claim made by the Tamil source I quoted which stated that “Without batting an eyelid, this same Diaspora is using human rights campaigns to challenge the Lankan government.”
@Groundviews:
I have submitted some statistics regarding convictions of US Soldiers, but it seems you have censored or blocked it. I request you to refrain from further censorship. The statistics are from Wikipedia, and do not constitute any copyright violation. I do not wish to have to cease all further participation in this forum; however, I will have no choice, as statistics are essential to my arguments. Thanks.
- Heshan
@Heshan
Your accusation of censorship is rather inane. We contacted you by e-mail yesterday requesting that you send in the actual web link for these statistics. Please do so and your comments will go up immediately.
Thanks,
GV.
The following is an extract from comments posted by “Human” in another thread. It deals with US atrocities that should have ended up at the ICJ.
I am copying it here for the information of those who are discussing the subject on this thread.
These and the examples posted by me shows how the USA and the West oriented powers make a mockery of JUSTICE.
Human Rights has become a tool by which the Poor and Less powerful countries are manipulated.
Extract
Human said, March 22, 2010 @ 12:53 am
………….
Here are several incidents with high casualties involving the U. S. where there were NO investigations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia (12 specific incidents)
Civilian casualties
Human Rights Watch “concludes that as few as 489 and as many as 528 Yugoslav civilians were killed in the ninety separate incidents in Operation Allied Force”. Refugees were among the victims. Between 278 and 317 of the dead, between 56 and 60 percent of the total number of deaths, were in Kosovo. In Serbia, 201 civilians were killed (five in Vojvodina) and eight died in Montenegro. Almost two thirds (303 to 352) of the total registered civilian deaths occurred in twelve incidents where ten or more civilian deaths were confirmed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Iraq_(December_1998)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War
Iraqi Health Ministry
The Health Ministry of the Iraqi government estimated 87,215 Iraqi violent deaths between January 1, 2005 and February 28, 2009. The number excludes thousands of people who are missing and civilians who were buried in the chaos of war without official notice. If included, those would raise the number of dead for that period by 10 to 20 percent according to the government official who provided the data to the Associated Press. The data was in the form of a list of yearly totals for death certificates issued for violent deaths by hospitals and morgues between Jan. 1, 2005, and Feb. 28, 2009. The Health ministry does not have figures for the first two years of the war.[5]
[edit]Associated Press
The Associated Press stated that more than 110,600 Iraqis had been killed since the start of the war to April 2009. This number is per the Health Ministry tally of 87,215 covering January 1, 2005 to February 28, 2009 combined with counts of casualties for 2003-2004, and after February 29, 2009 from hospital sources and media reports.[5] For more info see farther down at Associated Press and Health Ministry. More information.
I’m sure there are hundreds of incidents right there now involving the U. S. which have not resulted in any convictions.
@Groundviews:
I regret the discrepancy. That is not my real e-mail address, so I cannot reply to your e-mail. However, I am posting my original piece in regards to US military tribunals in the post after this one, with references in the text itself, as well as a summary of the references at the end of the text. Cheers.
Off the Cuff:
“All of them are on record. Which do you deny?”
The question is not which incident I deny, but your inability to admit that soldiers were given the maximum punishment 95 – 100 percent of the time.
1. Abu Grahib: Investigated/soldiers were punished
2. Mahmoudiya: Investigated/soldiers were punished
3. Haditha: Investigated/soldiers were punished
4. Hamadania: Investigated/soldiers were punished
LIST OF US SOLDIERS SENT TO JAIL AS A RESULT OF ABU GRAHIB:
Courts-martial, nonjudicial, and administrative punishment
- Colonel Thomas Pappas was relieved of his command on May 13, 2005 after receiving nonjudicial punishment on May 9, 2005 for two instances of dereliction, including that of allowing dogs to be present during interrogations. He was fined $8000 under the provisions of Article 15 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (nonjudicial punishment). He also received a General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand (GOMOR) which effectively ends his military career.
* Lieutenant Colonel Steven L. Jordan became the highest ranking officer to have charges brought against him in connection with the Abu Ghraib abuse on April 29, 2006.[55] Prior to his trial, eight of twelve charges against him were dismissed, two of the most serious after Major General George Fay admitted that he did not read Jordan his rights before interviewing him in reference to the abuses that had taken place. On August 28, 2007, Jordan was acquitted of all charges related to prisoner mistreatment and received a reprimand for disobeying an order not to discuss a 2004 investigation into the allegations.[56]
* Specialist Charles Graner was found guilty on January 14, 2005 of conspiracy to maltreat detainees, failing to protect detainees from abuse, cruelty, and maltreatment, as well as charges of assault, indecency, adultery, and obstruction of justice. On January 15, 2005, he was sentenced to ten years in federal prison.[57]
* Staff Sergeant Ivan Frederick pled guilty on October 20, 2004 to conspiracy, dereliction of duty, maltreatment of detainees, assault and committing an indecent act in exchange for other charges being dropped. His abuses included forcing three prisoners to masturbate. He also punched one prisoner so hard in the chest that he needed resuscitation. He was sentenced to eight years in prison, forfeiture of pay, a dishonorable discharge and a reduction in rank to private.[58]
* Sergeant Javal Davis pled guilty February 4, 2005 to dereliction of duty, making false official statements and battery. He was sentenced to six months in prison, a reduction in rank to private, and a bad conduct discharge.
* Specialist Jeremy Sivits was sentenced on May 19, 2004 by a special court-martial to the maximum one-year sentence, in addition to being discharged for bad conduct and demoted, upon his plea of guilty.[59]
* Specialist Armin Cruz of the 325th Military Intelligence Battalion was sentenced on September 11, 2004 to eight months confinement, reduction in rank to private and a bad conduct discharge in exchange for his testimony against other soldiers.[60]
* Specialist Sabrina Harman was sentenced on May 17, 2005 to six months in prison and a bad conduct discharge after being convicted on six of the seven counts. She had faced a maximum sentence of five years.[61]
* Specialist Megan Ambuhl was convicted on October 30, 2004, of dereliction of duty and sentenced to reduction in rank to private and loss of a half-month’s pay.[62]
* Private First Class Lynndie England was convicted on September 26, 2005, of one count of conspiracy, four counts of maltreating detainees and one count of committing an indecent act. She was acquitted on a second conspiracy count. England had faced a maximum sentence of ten years. She was sentenced on September 27, 2005, to three years confinement, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, reduction to Private (E-1) and received a dishonorable discharge.[58]
* Sergeant Santos Cardona was convicted of dereliction of duty and aggravated assault, the equivalent of a felony in the US civilian justice system. He served 90 days of hard labor at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. He was then transferred to a new unit and was promoted to sergeant. He was assigned to the 23rd MP Company of the US military police, which was based in Kuwait as of November 2006. There he was selected to train Iraqi police.[63]
* Corporal Joshua Lee Betts, of the 321st Military Intelligence Battalion, Detachment 9, pled innocent on October 20, 2004 to conspiracy, dereliction of duty, maltreatment of detainees, assault, and numerous violations of Geneva Convention, and human rights violation. Cpl. Joshua Lee Betts was later cleared of all charges.[64]
* Specialist Roman Krol pled guilty on February 1, 2005 to conspiracy and maltreatment of detainees at Abu Ghraib. He was sentenced to ten months confinement, reduction in rank to private, and a bad conduct discharge.[65]
* Specialist Israel Rivera, who was present during abuse on October 25, was under investigation but was never charged and testified against other soldiers.
* Sergeant Michael Smith was found guilty on March 21, 2006 of two counts of prisoner maltreatment, one count of simple assault, one count of conspiracy to maltreat, one count of dereliction of duty and a final charge of an indecent act, and sentenced to 179 days in prison, a fine of $2,250, a demotion to private, and a bad conduct discharge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse
US SOLDERS PUNISHED IN RELATION TO MAHMOUDIYAH KILLINGS:
Legal proceedings
On November 15, 2006, Specialist Barker pleaded guilty to rape and murder as part of a plea agreement requiring him to give evidence against the other soldiers to avoid the death penalty. He was sentenced to 90 years in prison, and must serve 20 years before being considered for parole. He wept during closing statements, and accepted responsibility for the rape and killings, saying the violence he had encountered in Iraq left him “angry and mean” toward Iraqis.[28]
Currently held in the United States Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.[29]
Paul E. Cortez
On January 22, 2007, Sergeant Cortez pleaded guilty in a court martial to rape, conspiracy to rape, and four counts of murder as part of a plea deal to avoid the death penalty, and was sentenced to 100 years in prison.[30] He will be eligible for parole in 10 years. Cortez, 24, also was given a dishonorable discharge. Cortez wept as he apologized for the crimes, saying he could not explain why he took part.[31]
Currently held in the United States Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.[29]
Steven Dale Green
Green was arrested in North Carolina while traveling home from Arlington, Virginia, where he had attended the funeral of a soldier. On June 30, 2006, the FBI arrested Green, who was held without bond and transferred to Louisville, Kentucky. On July 3, 2006, United States Federal Court prosecutors formally charged him with raping and killing Abeer Qassim Hamza al-Janabi, a 14-year-old girl, and with killing her six-year-old sister Hadeel, her father, Qassim Hamza Rasheed, and her mother, Fakhriya Taha Muhasen in Mahmoudiyah, on March 12, 2006. On July 10, the U.S. Army charged four other active duty soldiers with the same crime. A sixth soldier, Sgt. Anthony Yribe, was charged with failing to report the attack, but not with having participated in the rape and the murders. On May 7, 2009, Pfc. Green was found guilty by the federal court in Kentucky of rape and multiple counts of murder.[2] While prosecutors sought the death penalty in this case, jurors failed to agree unanimously on that outcome.[32] On September 4, 2009, Green was formally sentenced to life in prison with no possibility of parole.[33] He is held in the United States Penitentiary, Terre Haute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_killings
US SOLDIERS PUNISHED IN RELATION TO HADITHA INCIDENT:
Lance Cpl. Justin Sharratt
Involuntary manslaughter, reckless endangerment and aggravated assault
US SOLDIERS PUNISHED IN RELATION TO HAMADANIA INCIDENT:
November 2006: Shumate gets 21 months after striking conspiracy plea
In November 2006, Lance Corporal Jerry Shumate was jailed for 21 months after he pleaded guilty to the aggravated assault of an Iraqi man who was killed in the town of Hamdania in April. Shumate also admitted conspiracy to obstruct justice. In return for his guilty pleas, other charges including murder, kidnapping, assault and conspiracy were dismissed. During his testimony at Camp Pendleton in California, Shumate said that the squad had been looking for Iraqis planting bombs when the men agreed a plan to kill a known insurgent. Four of the squad from the 2nd platoon of Kilo Company from Camp Pendleton’s 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment left to abduct him, Shumate said. When they returned with a prisoner, he was “told to fire” by the squad leader and fired between 10 and 20 rounds at the detainee. Eight men were originally charged with kidnapping the Iraqi man and trying to cover up his killing by planting a gun and a shovel next to the body to make him look like he was planting bombs. He was seized from his home after the suspected insurgent could not be found. Other US marines based at Camp Pendleton are under investigation over a separate incident in November 2005 in which 24 civilians were killed in the Iraqi town of Haditha. (North County Times and other online reports 22 November 2006) As of April, 2009 only 3 of the Haditha Marines still face any charges at all.
February 2007: Pennington gets eight years in plea deal
On February 18, 2007, the fifth Marine to be tried, Lance Cpl. Robert Pennington, received an eight year jail sentence after agreeing to plead guilty to conspiracy and kidnapping charges. In return for his cooperative testimony against the remaining three defendants, prosecutors dropped additional charges of murder, larceny, and housebreaking. The initial sentence was reduced from 14 years to eight in return for his cooperation.[3] Pennington served a few months of the sentence for his role in the murder and was granted clemency and released from prison on August 11, 2007. [15]
August 2007: Hutchins found guilty of murder
On August 2, 2007, Sgt. Lawrence G. Hutchins III was found guilty of (*unpremeditated murder) by a military court-martial jury. In addition, Hutchins was also found guilty of conspiracy to commit murder, making a false official statement and larceny. He was acquitted on charges of kidnapping, assault and housebreaking.[16] He was sentenced to 15 years in military prison for his role in the case; this is the longest sentence given to any of the conspirators in this case and the only additional confinement given to any of the three Marines who went to trial in this case: Hutchins, Thomas, and Magincalda, as reported in the August 3rd issue of California’s North County Times. Lt. Gen. Samuel Helland, commanding general of United States Marine Forces Central Command, turned down a request to issue Hutchins a pardon but did reduce the sentence to 11 years. Hutchins is currently serving his sentence at the United States Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth while pursuing an appeal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings
REFERENCES
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_killings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdania_incident
Haditha Massacre
The prosecution case against eight Marines accused in the killing of 24 Iraqi civilians in Haditha has now dwindled to just two defendants, with no convictions or guilty pleas.
Of the four enlisted Marines initially charged with murdering men, women and children, three have had the charges thrown out.
The last Marine awaiting trial is Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich.
The military-judge at his preliminary hearing has written that he doubts a conviction is possible because of lack of forensic evidence and unreliable statements by witnesses.
Heshan,
You have been TOUTING the EXPERTISE of the US Forensics. But lack of Forensic Evidence is quoted by the Judge.
The judge also says the witnesses are UNRELIABLE even though one of them is a survivor with first hand experience. The 12 year old girl was present in one of the houses and feigned death to escape being killed while her family was mowed down by the US army, who broke in to her home.
An article in the Boston Globe today, 23 March 2010 states
“Eight Marines were initially charged with murder or failing to investigate the killings.
Charges were dismissed against six, and one was acquitted.
Wuterich, 30, faces reduced charges of voluntary manslaughter, aggravated assault, reckless endangerment, dereliction of duty, and obstruction of justice.
He is currently assigned to administrative work at First Marine Division headquarters at Camp Pendleton.
The deaths occurred after a roadside bomb hit a Marine convoy, killing the driver of a Humvee and wounding two other Marines.
Wuterich and a squad member were accused of shooting five men by a car at the scene.
Investigators say Wuterich, of Meriden, Conn., then ordered his men to clear several houses with grenades and gunfire. Women and children were left among the dead.
At his preliminary hearing, Wuterich said he regretted the loss of civilian life but believed he was operating within military combat rules when he ordered his men to attack.
Jansee,
You are the expert of Rules of War do you have the same opinion as Wuterich?
Please note the BOLD TEXT.
The Massacre occurred in November 2005.
Five years later the case is still dragging on.
7 of 8 accused have gone free
The last will also go free according to the Judge.
Reason lack of Forensic Evidence (…sic…. thanks to the World Class US Forensic Expertise).
It appears that even the evidence of the 12 year old girl who faced the attack (see BBC Video at earlier link) has been rejected.
Bottom Line 24 civilians massacred by US soldiers but no one killed them.
The guns and the grenades went off by itself.
Justice delivered or Justice denied?
Fair Trial or SHAM Trial?
Cover Up?
Note.
There were no terrorists found.
All killed were civilians.
There was no Human Shield.
The civilians were wantonly targeted.
A Revenge Attack for ONE roadside bomb that took ONE AMERICAN LIFE.
24 Iraqi’s including Children and women paid for it with their lives.
War Crimes Anyone?
Where are you hiding Human Rights Pall Bearers?
Where are you Mr Philip Alston?
Where are you Ms Navi Pillai?
No one to sponsor a resolution at the UN?
Thanks, Off The Cuff.
Keep in mind that this is a foreign country invading a relatively stable country which was not attacking the former nor in anyway connected by land to the former.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq#Casualties
Estimates on civilian casualties are more variable than those for military personnel. According to Iraq Body Count, a group that relies on Western press reports to measure civilian casualties, approximately 7,500 civilians were killed during the invasion phase, while more than 60,000 civilians have been killed as of April 2007.[144]
In November 2006 Iraq’s Health Minister Ali al-Shemari said that since the March 2003 invasion between 100,000 and 150,000 Iraqis have been killed.[145] Al-Shemari based his figure on an estimate of 100 bodies per day brought to morgues and hospitals – such a calculation would come out closer to 130,000 in total.[146]
The Lancet surveys of casualties of the Iraq War, conducted by researchers at Johns Hopkins University, estimates much higher civilian casualties, but does not differentiate between the invasion phase (March-May 2003) and the occupation phase (post May 2003). The Lancet survey estimates that over 650,000 Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the conflict, with the vast majority of these deaths occurring after May 2003.[147] These studies were highly controversial at their time of publication, attracting considerable criticism from predominantly non-scientific sources.
A September 14, 2007 estimate by ORB (Opinion Research Business), an independent British polling agency, suggests that the total Iraqi violent death toll due to the Iraq War since the US-led invasion is more than 1.2 million (1,220,580). Although higher than the 2006 Lancet estimate, these results, which were based on a survey of 1499 adults in Iraq from August 12–19, 2007, are reasonably consistent with the figures that were published in the Lancet study.[148][149][150][151]
Off the Cuff:
You have found 1 case where an investigation is incomplete. The USA has been in Iraq since 2003. But even in this 1 case that is incomplete, there is no cover-up. [b] If there was a cover-up, no one would be charged. [/b]
[b] Not a single Sri Lankan soldier has been charged in the Ch4 incident. [/b]
[b] There is no admission of guilt from the Sri Lankan Government or military. In contrast, the American military and government admit that Haditha was a mistake. [/b]
[b] On May 17, 2006, Democratic Representative John Murtha of Pennsylvania, a retired Marine colonel and critic of the war, stated at a news conference that an internal investigation had confirmed the story.[56][57][58] He was quoted as saying:
“There was no firefight, there was no IED (improvised explosive device) that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood.”[59] [/b]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings
——————————
Off the Cuff:
As you can see, the list of American soldiers punished for criminal behavior is very long. [b] Your claims about cover-ups, sham courts, etc. have been rendered totally worthless by the long long list of American soldiers convicted for crimes. [/b]
Off the Cuff:
Donald Rumsfeld, former Secretary of Defense, offered to resign three times after the Abu Grahib incident.
What about Gothabaya Rajapakse? Shelling hospitals is okay?
What about Mahinda Rajapakse? Zero civilian casualties by the Sri Lankan Army?
We can see how disciplined the Sri Lankan Army is – look at what’s happening to Sarath Fonseka. I have never seen an ex-general given such treatment, not even by the Nazis.
Sri Lankan Army is just another political tool for the politicians… that is why it took 30 years to finish off some 15 yr old Tamil fighters wearing bata slippers…
Let me tell you about the American Army. It is really the best in the world. Most who join up do so because the US Government pays all of their university and housing expenses for five years after they have spent a certain amount of time in the military. I have met many of these guys at the university where I work. After serving in the military, they become engineers, study business, etc. The military is just the beginning of a career path; it is not an entire career by itself. As I said, it is the best in the world – one is trained in the best technology available.
I wish I could say the same about the Sri Lankan military, but I cannot.
Look, they are asking for donations: “Api Wenuwen Api”
“Donate direct to Ministry of Defence Sri Lanka”
http://www.apiwenuwenapi.com/
Do you know who is in charge of the MoD? I will let you answer that.
10%, 20%, or 100% commission… whichever % it is, that’s what you “donate” directly to.
Did I not say the Sri Lanka Army was a political tool?
“Not a single Sri Lankan soldier has been charged in the Ch4 incident.”
Why should any one be charged when there is no proof that any Sri Lankan soldier was involved? I know antsy LTTE supporters (i.e. you Heshan) like to assume that the Sri Lankan army is behind every crime that occurs in South Asia but this doesn’t really hold up in court.
And you seem to believe that Sri Lanka never tries criminals in the army.
What are the following?
—————————————
February 2002, the attorney general reportedly issued indictments against more than six hundred police and armed forces personnel implicated in disappearances that occurred before 1994, many in connection with counterinsurgency operations against the Janatha Vimukthi Peramuna (JVP) organization. On June 28, two soldiers were sentenced to six years in prison and fined Rs. 2,500 (U.S. $27) each for their role in an abduction and murder in 1989.
The independent commission instituted to look into the Kokkadichcholai incident recommended that compensation of some 5.25 million rupees (approximately CDN$ 210,000) to be paid to next of kin of those who were killed (67 were identified) and to people who lost property in the rampage. The commission also recommends prosecution of the soldiers involved. [9] In 2001 the army accepted responsibility for the large scale massacre at the hamlet of Kokkadicholai.[10] A military tribunal found the commanding officer guilty of failure to control his troops and illegal disposal of the bodies, and he was dismissed from service. The other 19 soldiers under trial were sent to the front lines in the north of the country as a punishment.
———————————————————–
-Krishanti Kumaraswamy-
Six soldiers who were directly involved in the raping were sentenced to death by the court of the government of Sri Lanka.[5]
Has any LTTE personnel been charged for the massacres they committed by the LTTE, Heshan?
@Groundviews:
Thanks again for publishing my statistics. Apologies if I took a rather hard approach. Unfortunately on one popular Sri Lankan website, the moderator – a fellow living in Canada – was a rather vindictive character who literally changed readers comments, if he disagreed. Luckily that is not the case here. For future communication, I am submitting my real e-mail address along with my posts. Keep up the good work.
Human:
Thanks for a good laugh. You should consider reading what you write:
The other 19 soldiers under trial were sent to the front lines in the north of the country as a punishment.
No doubt that any criminal would like such a “punishment.” But I am not sure about the victims..
You also wrote:
”
Krishanti Kumaraswamy-
Six soldiers who were directly involved in the raping were sentenced to death by the court of the government of Sri Lanka.”
Do you know that after the Sri Lankan Army captured Jaffna in 1996, more than 600 Tamil youth disappeared? Krishanthi Kumaraswamy is just one statistic. Six soldiers did not kill 600 people.
Human:
“Why should any one be charged when there is no proof that any Sri Lankan soldier was involved?”
That is the Sri Lankan logic! If the investigation doesn’t start, then the accusations are all baseless. What should have happened with the CH4 tape is the Government should have set up an independent panel of experts, and invited foreign experts with the relevant technical expertise to advise them. If the panel found nothing, then no one else would mention CH4 again, and the whole thing would be forgotten within a month. When you deny, deny, deny in the face of strong contradictory evidence, it doesn’t look very good… this is really why we need the UNP back in power. The war is a one-time thing; now we need people who are good with public and foreign relations. CH4 says a lot about the inability of the present regime to maintain good PR and FR.
Heshan:
“That is the Sri Lankan logic! If the investigation doesn’t start, then the accusations are all baseless. What should have happened with the CH4 tape is the Government should have set up an independent panel of experts, and invited foreign experts with the relevant technical expertise to advise them. If the panel found nothing, then no one else would mention CH4 again, and the whole thing would be forgotten within a month. When you deny, deny, deny in the face of strong contradictory evidence, it doesn’t look very good… this is really why we need the UNP back in power. The war is a one-time thing; now we need people who are good with public and foreign relations. CH4 says a lot about the inability of the present regime to maintain good PR and FR.”
You make some good points. I agree with all that. Sorry, for calling you a LTTE supporter. Still I don’t think the video shows the army executing Tamil prisoners. For one the Army wouldn’t have allowed such a video to be taken and the source is pretty suspicious (JDS). Yes, there should be some investigation like you said that would clear it all. Whining about “sovereignty” by GOSL Representatives is really stupid and looks suspicious.
Rajapaksa and his regime are really horrible dealing with the media. I cringe every-time there is a report of the somebody in the government denying an allegation out right. At least show some effort of even considering the validity of the accusation.
“Thanks for a good laugh. You should consider reading what you write:
The other 19 soldiers under trial were sent to the front lines in the north of the country as a punishment.
No doubt that any criminal would like such a “punishment.” But I am not sure about the victims.”
There was some other parts about the family getting compensation I thought was nice. And the army admitted wrongdoing (which you said they didn’t do). It was annoying that the soldiers were acquitted but the leading commander got fired at least.
This type of thing happens in the United States too though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre
Krishanthi is a start. There are some other cases pending. Hopefully these will result in convictions.
Point is all these were investigated only after they were brought to attention by media with IRREFUTABLE evidence. Otherwise they would have disappeared into vaults of unknown history. And even then they were let go lightly, C’mon! Only 4 people did more than a year of time for Abu Grhaib? Maximum rank punished was a Lt. Colonel? get real. These human rights abuses should be investigated by International Independent Panels. Read and look at all the photos and see if justice is 4 low ranks doing considerable time for that and rest let off with slap on the wrist.
As for the CH4 video, it does not provide any credible evidence nor there is witness account. There is no where to even start an investigation.
Heshan,
Quite an outburst …. but in vain.
Haditha was mentioned from the beginning but you were trying to camouflage it by inundating the thread with irrelevancies. The same thing that you tried to do with the Green case where in order to satisfy the Carnel Desires of US soldiers a CHILD was Gang Raped, abused Tortured and FINALLY MURDERED and burned.
It was a small wonder that her 6 year old sister escaped Rape and was simply murdered or did she really escape rape or abuse? Given the Carnal degradation of US soldiers involved, there is a strong possibility that she too was SEXUALLY ABUSED.
Only a Moron can continue to use DOUBLE TALK on Human Rights without any shame.
Your position on Human Rights and Morality is Hilarious.
“What should have happened with the CH4 tape is the Government should have set up an independent panel of experts, and invited foreign experts with the relevant technical expertise to advise them.” Thats what you wrote above.
How come you avoid similar logic when writing about USA led NATO allies?
How come you are AVERSE to similar investigations about USA and NATO?
When confronted with US / NATO Atrocities where responsibility can be clearly attributed to them, your Logic deserts you.
“When you deny, deny, deny in the face of strong contradictory evidence, it doesn’t look very good” you wrote.
Read what you write, you can find enough examples about repeated denials.
Lets see you QUANTIFYING the purported “strong contradictory evidence” that you are so emphatic about in your next post, without going round and round the Mulberry Bush.
The Funniest part of your Logic is you and the others of your ilk are unable EVEN to attribute the CH4 incident to Sri Lanka with even an IOTA of hard evidence.
That is the FUNDAMENTAL question that has to be answered BEFORE trying to hold Lanka responsible. Where is the Geographic Evidence that you use to Identify Lanka in the CH4?
Haditha was a CRIMINAL REVENGE ATTACK on civilians in retaliation to a roadside bomb that killed ONE US Soldier. 24 Civilians paid for it, with their lives.
Already 7 of the 8 accused have gone Scot Free. Five years after the incident the Judge says the remaining soldier may also go free due to “Insufficient Forensic Evidence”. Who is responsible for that? Is it not the Prosecutor who is responsible for COLLECTING the Forensic Evidence? Who In this case is the US Army. According to you they are the “Best in the World”.
The Forensic Evidence is in Iraq not in the USA. Why were the criminals whisked away across the Atlantic to have SHAM TRIALS, 10,000 Km away from where the crimes were committed? The LOOP HOLES WERE PURPOSELY KEPT to allow the Killers to go free.
When details you don’t expect emerge, we see you floundering and your Moral Nudity getting exposed.
Who killed those 24 civilians including Children and Women? The Guns and the Grenades acting on its own?
“Let me tell you about the American Army. It is really the best in the world.”
Best in the WORLD where even a 14 year old girl child in a Hijab is not safe?
Was her 6 year old sister Safe?
Come on Heshan, we are discussing Human Rights and the Rule of Law. You want Sri Lanka investigated by outsiders then explain why the USA is stone walling investigations into their activities some of which I have described and more of which “Human” has provided links to.
I know it is a very difficult subject for you to handle right now but don’t go fishing, stay on track.
@Human:
“Still I don’t think the video shows the army executing Tamil prisoners.”
Like I said, if the Sri Lankan Army is innocent, then GOSL should go ahead with the investigation. The real difficulty here is that the military and the government are very much intertwined and political interference in military affairs is a common thing. This is why nepotism in general is bad – if one brother is running the show in the military, and another is running the government, and the military messes up, the brother in the government will come to the rescue. And the brother in the government will use the resources in the military to go after his opponents. I don’t think I need to give you direct examples.
@Observer:
“Point is all these were investigated only after they were brought to attention by media with IRREFUTABLE evidence.”
Exactly. If there is a major incident involving US soldiers, Iraqi’s can go to the media, and an investigation will begin. The Iraqi’s don’t have to worry about white vans coming in the middle of the night to *permanently* silence them.
On the other hand, I dispute your claim about irrefutable evidence. Usually when people are upset, their judgment can be skewed. Their first motivation is not to be objective. This is why they have to be carefully cross-examined in a court of law, and why the evidence they give has to be cross-referenced with other pieces of evidence which in the end will validate their claims. I don’t think that a BBC reporter going and interviewing hysterical relatives after an airstrike is the correct way to collect evidence. Those relatives need to make their claims in the proper setting. Of course it is good if the BBC reporter does the interview, it should not be the end of the investigation is what I’m saying.
Off the Cuff:
“Haditha was mentioned from the beginning but you were trying to camouflage it by inundating the thread with irrelevancies.”
You were the one claiming Haditha was a cover-up. But the US Military has acknowledged a mistake was made in that case. Even the US Congress has admitted it was a mistake. I do not agree with the Haditha verdict. But it is one incident in 7 yrs where US soldiers were not properly punished….
“The same thing that you tried to do with the Green case where in order to satisfy the Carnel Desires of US soldiers a CHILD was Gang Raped, abused Tortured and FINALLY MURDERED and burned.”
And your point is? This case is closed. One guy was given 27 months in prison, another guy was given 110 years in prison, and another guy was given life in prison. Can you suggest a better punishment?
Read the following very carefully:
“However, on May 21, 2009, Green was spared the death penalty when the jury of nine men and three women couldn’t come to unanimous agreement on a penalty; as a result, he will receive life without parole.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_killings
That means Green will be in prison for his whole life. What kind of punishment are you asking for? Do you want Alston to personally execute Green?
” How come you avoid similar logic when writing about USA led NATO allies?
How come you are AVERSE to similar investigations about USA and NATO? ”
I am not averse to similar investigations about USA and NATO. But they will be a great waste of time. As Observer pointed out, the media does 1/4 of the work in highlighting the abuses. What about the media in SL? They were not even allowed into the battle zones during Rajapakse’s war, except for one fellow from state television who only spoke about the progress of the Army.
It is all about the right to information. Why were media banned from speaking to IDP’s in the barbed wire camps after the war? Why is Sarath Fonseka being locked up… does he have something to tell the world, which the “King” and his brothers do not approve of?
If journalists had been allowed to go everywhere in SL from the beginning, I guarantee you that Alston would not be asking for an investigation of the CH4 tape. Media freedom plays an important role in creating a climate of openness where VIP’s cannot hide behind executive regulations, PTA, and white vans.
It is because of this climate of impunity that the CH4 tape looks very suspicious and should be investigated not only by GOSL, but outside observers.
Heshan,
“When you deny, deny, deny in the face of strong contradictory evidence, it doesn’t look very good” that is what you wrote March 24, 2010 @ 8:34 am with refference to CH4.
This is the challenge I threw at you.
Lets see you QUANTIFYING the purported “strong contradictory evidence” that you are so emphatic about in your next post, without going round and round the Mulberry Bush.
Now before going on and on about the CH4 prove what you say. Prove that Sri Lanka is even depicted on that video. Prove that it is NOT TAMIL NADU which is depicted. Prove that it is not Arizona or Iraq that is depicted.
All the things that you recommend will apply ONLY if you can prove Sri Lanka is shown in that video else you may need to talk to the Indian Govt or the US Govt or the Iraqi govt about it.
You have avoided answering the above question. Please answer it if you can. The shock value of CH4 has diminished, now you have to answer hard questions.
I have limited this post to repeating a question you avoided from my previous post.
The rest of your post would be responded to after your reply.
Heshan,
Observer says > “Point is all these were investigated only after they were brought to attention by media with IRREFUTABLE evidence.”
Heshan says > “Exactly. If there is a major incident involving US soldiers, Iraqi’s can go to the media, and an investigation will begin.”
If the Iraqi’s go to the US Govt justice won’t be done, is that what you are saying? Is that their INHERENT behavior?
You are admitting that without the attention of the media, the US Govt will, as a matter of course, COVER UP any atrocity committed by her soldiers.
Off the Cuff:
“Now before going on and on about the CH4 prove what you say. Prove that Sri Lanka is even depicted on that video. Prove that it is NOT TAMIL NADU which is depicted. Prove that it is not Arizona or Iraq that is depicted.”
The first thing to determine is whether or not the video is real or whether it is staged . There are only two possibilities here. The “experts” picked by GOSL denied that the video is real. The three world-renowned experts chosen by Alston stated that the video is real. GOSL still denies that the video is real.
Now, there is an obvious contradiction here. Either Alston’s experts are wrong or the GOSL experts are wrong. Before we proceed further, I would like you to answer this existential question. Do you consider the video to be real or not? Because if you do not consider the video to be real (the position still maintained by GOSL) then the second question – the location where the said incident occurred – is superfluous (e.g. irrelevant). I am sure you know my position – I side with Alston’s experts.
Once we have agreed on the existential question – or agreed to disagree – then we can proceed to examine the other questions.
P.S: For the sake of clarity, it is important to define what is meant by “real.” When Alston’s experts state that the video is real, they are implying that people were actually executed in a literal sense. That is the simple concise definition of “real” within the CH4 context.
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The Iraqi’s cannot go to the US Government since there is no US Government in Iraq.
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Once again, the US Govt is not present in Iraq. So it is impossible for them to engage in any cover-up. Only the US military can engage in a cover-up. Also, the US military and the US government are two different things. It is not a family business like in SL. It is important to distinguish between cover-ups by individual soldiers and cover-ups by the entire military. As the detailed statistics I previously gave indicate, there is no attempt by the US military – the high command – to engage in any cover-up. Of course, there have been attempts by individual soldiers to engage in cover-ups. But the difference is very important. In SL, there is an explicit attempt by the Ministry of Defense to cover-up any wrong-doings of soldiers and other military personnel. The net effect is that military personnel in the SLA are given an unofficial license to engage in any kind of criminal behavior. In fact, the judicial system in SL – which is inherently flawed further encourages such behavior. Just look at the PTA.
Off the Cuff:
“If the Iraqi’s go to the US Govt justice won’t be done, is that what you are saying? Is that their INHERENT behavior?”
The Iraqi’s cannot go to the US Government since there is no US Government in Iraq.
“You are admitting that without the attention of the media, the US Govt will, as a matter of course, COVER UP any atrocity committed by her soldiers.”
Once again, the US Govt is not present in Iraq. So it is impossible for them to engage in any cover-up. Only the US military can engage in a cover-up. Also, the US military and the US government are two different things. It is not a family business like in SL. It is important to distinguish between cover-ups by individual soldiers and cover-ups by the entire military. As the detailed statistics I previously gave indicate, there is no attempt by the US military – the high command – to engage in any cover-up. Of course, there have been attempts by individual soldiers to engage in cover-ups. But the difference is very important. In SL, there is an explicit attempt by the Ministry of Defense to cover-up any wrong-doings of soldiers and other military personnel. The net effect is that military personnel in the SLA are given an unofficial license to engage in any kind of criminal behavior. In fact, the judicial system in SL – which is inherently flawed further encourages such behavior. Just look at the PTA.
Heshan,
Here we go again. Round and round the Mulberry bush.
Heshan I am aware of your position regarding CH4 and so are you about mine as both of us contributed to the GV thread about the Video of Shame and to the other threads here on GV. My posts on that thread started here http://www.groundviews.org/2009/08/29/a-video-of-shame-and-outrage-responses-positions-and-clarifications/comment-page-3/#comment-12878
In subsequent posts I have clearly stated my position regarding CH4.
CH4 does not contain any Geographic Evidence that CONNECTS it to Sri Lanka. Hence Sri Lanka has ABSOLUTELY no responsibility towards it.
In order to involve Sri Lanka and to place responsibility on Sri Lanka the EVENTS depicted on the video MUST be shown to be connected with Sri Lanka. A sound track can’t prove it. ONLY GEOGRAPHIC evidence can do so.
The truth or untruth of the events has no relevance in FIXING RESPONSIBILITY.
Heshan,
“Once again, the US Govt is not present in Iraq. So it is impossible for them to engage in any cover-up. Only the US military can engage in a cover-up. Also, the US military and the US government are two different things.”
Aha….the Military decided to invade Iraq on it’s own…It can take decisions independent of the US Govt….. Two different things? who are you trying to deceive? Surely the GV readership is not that Gullible. You dropped your guard probably unwittingly in your reply to Observer.
Who prevented the Prosecution of Crimes committed in Iraq in Iraqi Courts was it the US Military? The US Govt not only prevented the prosecution of Criminals in the US Forces it also prevented the Prosecution of US civilians who Killed Iraqis in Iraq.
That was the Corner Stone for the Cover Ups.
The US Govt operates and extends its Fiat in Iraq through various devious means.
Off the Cuff:
I am not beating around any bush. There is a simple reason why I am asking whether or not you consider the CH4 video to be real. In this thread, I claimed that Sri Lanka lacks forensic expertise. You offered some counter-argument that did not make a definitive case in the affirmative. However, the CH4 video clearly illustrates the point that the Sri Lankan Government lacks forensic expertise. The Sri Lankan experts were unable to establish the authenticity of the video. There can be only two reasons for this failure of the Sri Lankan experts.
The first reason: they are incompetent .
The second reason: GOSL is engaged in a cover-up.
What is interesting about CH4 is that both reasons are valid.
1. A Sri Lankan from Australia was brought in to be on the panel of experts. In fact, this Sri Lankan was the only expert on the three-man panel appointed by GOSL. The other two fellows were high-level military guys.
2. We can assume that the expert hired by GOSL is competent enough to determine whether or not the video is real.
3. If the expert hired by GOSL makes a claim that the video is not real – in in direct contradiction to the claims of the three independent experts hired by Alston – then this expert must be part of the GOSL cover-up.
(3) is based on the fact that if you hire four experts for bridge design, three of them agree, and one disagrees with all the rest, obviously the one expert is missing something. Unless that one expert happens to be a genius. But if he was a genius, he would have formed a case so strong against the CH4 tape that we would not be having this argument.
Conclusion: the tape is real
GOSL is engaged in a cover-up. If it admitted that the CH4 tape was real, that would be grounds for an investigation. Clearly, GOSL is afraid of an investigation. Can you give a good reason why that is so, besides the fact that it knows the soldiers on the tape are SLA?
“Aha….the Military decided to invade Iraq on it’s own…”
The invasion of Iraq and the misbehavior of particular soldiers are not related.
Unless you are claiming that Iraq was invaded so that particular soldiers could misbehave and get away with it – a rather absurd claim.
“Who prevented the Prosecution of Crimes committed in Iraq in Iraqi Courts was it the US Military? The US Govt not only prevented the prosecution of Criminals in the US Forces it also prevented the Prosecution of US civilians who Killed Iraqis in Iraq.”
Exactly: the prosecution of crimes in Iraqi Courts , not prosecution itself. The problem with this argument is that it applies to US Soldiers stationed in every part of the world. It has been the official policy for a very long time (more than a 100 years). So now you have to explain how the US Government enforced a 100 year old policy as part of a cover-up to protect US soldiers by convicting them in US courts as opposed to Iraqi courts.
Heshan,
“I am not beating around any bush. ” you wrote
Of course you are. The CH4 video does not contain GEOGRAPHIC information. You have no hard evidence to connect the CH4 to Sri Lanka.
You are INCAPABLE of providing the “Strong Evidence” that you bragged about earlier.
Let’s see you QUANTIFY your “Strong Evidence” and show that the location, the Video was shot, is Not Tamil Nadu or Elsewhere.
Off the Cuff:
Are you unable to answer the question of whether or not the tape is real?
IF the tape is real, then whoever was shot in the tape DIED.
The fact that people DIED in the tape narrows down the list of possibilities.
These were real soldiers executing real POWs.
But the BIG catch: the soldiers were wearing Sri Lankan Army uniforms and spoke Sinhalese.
Let’s put everything together:
Real soldiers wearing Sri Lankan Army uniforms, speaking Sinhalese, and SHOOTING DEAD REAL PRISONERS OF WARS.
The only logical place where such an incident could have occured is SRI LANKA.
As you see, once you accept that the tape is real, and not staged , then it is easy to where the incident occurred. That is exactly what Alston’s experts did – determine that the tape is real, and not staged.
Let me repeat again: IF you accept that the tape is real, then the rest follows easily.
*then it is easy to see where the incident occurred.
Heshan,
Silly arguments can’t replace proof
You can wear a woman”s clothing but that won’t make you a woman (I am assuming you are a man of course).
You can dress up in a US Army 5 star General’s UNIFORM that wont make you even a 1 star General (called a Brigadier in the SLA).
You can dress up imitating the Queen of England but that won’t make you the Queen.
You can even speak Fluent English with an English accent but that wont make you an Englishman …..get my drift?
“Real soldiers wearing Sri Lankan Army uniforms, speaking Sinhalese, and SHOOTING DEAD REAL PRISONERS OF WARS.” so you wrote.
Sorry that is as illogical as it can get. Let’s see how you negate the following description.
Real LTTE TERRORIST, wearing WHAT LOOKS LIKE a SLA uniform, speaking Sinhala and shooting dead CAPTURED SLA soldiers or Muslim peasants or Sinhala Peasants or Tamil dissidents, Shot dead in some location in TAMIL NADU and captured on Video for the express purposes of propaganda of which you are now a part.
You have been going round and round the Mulberry Bush without providing straight answers as you Don’t have any HARD GEOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE.
Please PROVIDE THE GEOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE to prove that SL is even involved, instead of your convoluted logic.
“The three world-renowned experts chosen by Alston stated that the video is real. GOSL still denies that the video is real.”
The question is whether it is a staged event or an actual event. The science cannot prove beyond any doubts the video is not staged! Science is when something is proven without any assumptions. So the report commissioned by Alston is not science because if you read it very carefully, you will see that broad assumptions are made in favor of conclusions made.
The experts ultimately say quote: “The footage APPEARS to be authentic”
Note that it DOES NOT state: “The footage is without an iota of doubt 100% authentic”
Like they say appearances can be deceiving. However even if it appears authentic, where in the report does it tie to Sri Lanka? That this video was actually shot in SL?
The only reason you and I may even think that this video was shot is SL is that because JDS SAYS SO!!
Only other links are the the uniforms that look similar to SLA and “Sinhalese speaking”. Essential elements that any competent person would introduce to a video to narrate the story they seek to narrate.
The biggest problem is that no one who screams this video is “real” can suggest where to even begin an investigation. If I was assigned to investigate this video on the assumption it could be attributed to a real life incident, my starting point would have to be interviewing the entire army of soldiers who may even remotely resemble the persons depicted in this video. Do you know how ridiculous that is? All the while the real actors are probably eating chapathi in Tamil Nadu from the few hundred rupees they got for a one off acting job? yeah right. GOV SL are not clowns.
End of the day objectively speaking, only thing that ties this video to SL from the footage is the similar looking SLA uniforms and few Sinhalese words. Both of which are so easy to dupe/replicate. To tarnish the image of an antire nation based on this linkage is ludicrous and blatant propaganda that defies sane reasoning. Unfortunately I find my self in such a situation having to reason against biased opinions. In fact any government would be FURIOUS the way SL GOV is if allegations were made against them on such serious matters based on SCANT, UNVERIFIED, questionable evidence. Were there to be any credible pointers that warrant a practical investigation, as a responsible Gov that considers human rights to be a serious matter would swiftly initiate an investigation. Channel 4 it self admits the footage is unverified. Alas….
My conclusion – fake human rights violation video EPIC FAIL!
Off the Cuff:
“Real LTTE TERRORIST, wearing WHAT LOOKS LIKE a SLA uniform, speaking Sinhala and shooting dead CAPTURED SLA soldiers or Muslim peasants or Sinhala Peasants or Tamil dissidents, Shot dead in some location in TAMIL NADU and captured on Video for the express purposes of propaganda of which you are now a part.”
LTTE never took Sinhalese or Muslim prisoners to places outside of Sri Lanka. Nice try, but that is a ridiculous theory. I am sure even you realize the absurdity of that claim. There has never been a recorded instance of the LTTE doing so, not even once. At this point in time, we know pretty much everything about the LTTE – to the extent of the contents in Prabhakaran’s personal diaries.
If you want to claim that the LTTE shot the video in Sri Lanka itself, that is a valid possibility. But it is a different argument altogether.
Observer:
It is worth reading what Alston has to say:
“Over the past four months, I have been engaged in a series of communications with the government about this video, in which I requested it to conduct an independent investigation.
“While the Government initially refused to do so, on 7 September 2009, it issued a response stating that it had commissioned four separate investigations, and that they ‘have now scientifically established beyond any doubt that this video is a fake’.
“At the time, I expressed concern about the objectivity of the investigations, in part because two of the ‘independent experts’ worked for the Sri Lankan armed forces.
“Some of the reports seemed more impressionistic than scientific, and I have never been provided the full version of the reports.
“I decided that it was incumbent upon me to commission independent and impartial evaluations of the videotape.
“I retained three experts: in forensic pathology (Dr Spitz), forensic video analysis (Mr Spivack), and firearm evidence (Mr Diaczuk).
“Together, the reports by these experts strongly suggest that the video is authentic.
“A Sri Lankan expert stated that there was no recoil or movement of the weapon discharged.
“However, Mr Spivack and Mr Diaczuk described the recoil visible on the video, and the way in which the movement was consistent with firing live ammunition.
“A Sri Lankan expert stated that the lack of audio synchronization with the video indicated manipulation. However, Mr Spivack stated that the video/audio synchronization in the video was well within acceptable limits, and that audio can be ahead or behind video, subject to various variables.
“A Sri Lankan expert stated that the movement of the second victim after being shot was not consistent with the normal expected reaction. However, Mr Spitz stated that the movement was entirely consistent with the manner in which the individual was apparently shot.
“A Sri Lankan expert stated that while wind could be heard on the audio, it was not evident in the video.
“Mr Spivack however described multiple places in the video where there is clear evidence of wind.
“Sri Lanka’s experts argued that the footage was likely recorded on a digital camcorder, and not a mobile phone.
“Mr Spivack concluded that the metadata he retrieved from the video was entirely consistent with multimedia files produced by mobile phones with video recording capability, and that it would have been very difficult to alter the metadata.”
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/world/asia_pacific/sri+lanka+video+report+findings/3491642
@Observer:
Let me add another point – a rather subtle, nevertheless, valid one.
Assume that real people were shot dead in the tape. (1st assumption)
What is the contradiction? That no one was actually shot in the tape – that the whole affair was staged. (2nd assumption)
If the 2nd assumption is true, then it had to be a very good acting job . What you are saying is that Alston’s experts drew a false conclusion which implies that the actors in the tape were able to fool an expert forensic pathologist, an expert forensic video analyst, and a firearms expert. In addition, the acting was so good that it fooled a whole round of ballistic simulations, audio testing, etc.
UNLESS the above group of actors consists of the likes of Harrison Ford, Shah Rukh Khan, and Tom Cruise, I have to wonder where the LTTE got such talented actors? How many times did they rehearse for this performance? You and I know the software they have these days is very good… let’s be realistic and ask ourselves: what is the probability that some amateur actors hired by the LTTE could manage to pull off such a performance, so that even the tiniest detail which could give the whole thing away, like the victim’s recoil upon being shot, was taken care of?
If you need to be reminded of the difference between amateur and professional acting, I suggest you watch “Blair Witch Project” and “Waterworld” back-to-back. Professional actors are so good they don’t waste their time with low-budget films.
*Professional actors are so good they don’t waste their time with low-budget films
I am referring to famous actors who reach a certain level of success.
Heshan,
“Mr Spivack concluded that the metadata he retrieved from the video was entirely consistent with multimedia files produced by mobile phones with video recording capability, and that it would have been very difficult to alter the metadata.”
Let’s just pick on meta data. If you read above objectively, Mr. Spivack states the meta data would have been very difficult to alter.
No where does Mr. Spivack states that meta data cannot be altered. There leave room that meta data can be concocted digitally, in fact it can be done.
On the other hand read following excerpt form the technical notes relating to Alston’s report appendix below.
According to the metadata retrieved from the file submitted for analysis, encoded dates and tagged dates for both video and audio components indicate the recording was made on July 17, 2009 at 09:06:47 UTC (Universal Time Coordinated), also known as GMT (Greenwich Mean Time) or Zulu Time. This time, if correct, would be 14:36:47 local time in Sri Lanka based on the standard offset of GMT + 5.5 hours (Daylight Saving Time is not observed in Sri Lanka). The encoded date is well after the alleged date of the incident and, if accurate, would tend to discredit the recording’s authenticity at first glance. However, the encoded date is not conclusive evidence of the actual recording date and time, because it is derived from the device’s time and date setting, which, according to documentation obtained for representative Philips mobile phone devices sold and/or operable in Sri Lanka (see attached Philips Xenium X710 Manual, Pg. 8), can be set by the user to any desired date and time, irrespective of time and date references that may or may not be transmitted by the mobile phone network. Indeed, it is possible that the individual who used the device to record these events may have deliberately altered the time and date settings to provide plausible deniability of his/her participation in and/or knowledge of the incident.
In essence it admits the meta data (technical evidence) does not match the date during which the video was claimed to be filmed. Presumptuous. Earlier it was said the meta data is “very difficult to fake”. So the technical expert finds him self in a bit of conundrum. How does he explain this conflict of facts? The person who took the video altered the date of his camera phone BEFORE taking the video.
Indeed, it is possible that the individual who used the device to record these events may have deliberately altered the time and date settings to provide plausible deniability of his/her participation in and/or knowledge of the incident.
This is speculation and not SCIENCE. Therefore these experts have not proven scientifically OR technically this video is authentic.
Also it is ludicrous to believe their explanation. At the time the perpetrator most likely took the video as a personal souvenir as sick as it may sound (hypothetically speaking). Therefore he would not have anticipated one day this video was going to be under the scrutiny of the WORLD. The person must have had to have extremely diligent foresight in order to even think of this possibility. If a person had such extreme diligence, then such a person would not record a crime like that in the first place. It is very easy to see the flaws of such speculation/presumptuous argument. I am a fairly logical person and arguments like this smell fishy and biased. Certainly such CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE won’t fly in an impartial court of law. Sorry buddy! I don’t eat what Alston says just because he says so.
We’ve already seen his lack of excitement with going after his own kind, when evidence is not so circumstantial and eye witnesses that have come forward. It’s a shame people like this discredit the reputation of the UN. I believe his reputation is already shattered among independent observers now.
Observer:
You forgot to include this part from the report:
“It is theoretically possible to alter or delete metadata in a multimedia file, so the metadata contained in the file submitted for analysis cannot be considered absolutely conclusive with respect to accuracy or containing all possible file attributes. Notwithstanding this theoretical possibility, the analyst was unable to locate any commercially available software capable of deleting or altering
meaningful file attributes; available software was capable only of deleting or altering file tags such as music artist, album name, or similar data. Tampering with metadata relevant to a forensic analysis apparently requires a hex editor and detailed knowledge of the multimedia file structure. In other words, altering the class of metadata recovered in this analysis is no trivial matter; it requires a high degree of technical proficiency.”
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/issues/executions/docs/TechnicalNoteAppendix.pdf
In other words, ITS NOT something that you can learn with a book or a simple google search. It is equivalent to HACKING… you have to reverse engineer the software, but not only that, you would have to have an extensive knowledge of programming (hex=16 bit binary) in addition to multimedia technologies. This is what we are talking about:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2c/Hexedit-screenshot.png
And you have to correctly alter such data for a MOBILE PHONE so that the frames synchronize correctly, the audio quality is correct, etc.
In simple terms, you cannot make a video with your mobile phone, then go find a random software engineer and ask him to alter the metadata so that you get whatever date you want to appear on the video. It would require non-standard techniques; how long such techniques would need to achieve the desired result – I have no idea, I am neither a hacker nor a programmer nor a multimedia expert of any sort, and the expert doesn’t say.
BUT the point is that if if this was a case of forgery, it was very, very, well done. Which actually negates the possibility that the LTTE was behind such forgery, since the LTTE is not known to have engaged in such high quality forgery over a 30 year period. In other words, you can look at an LTTE video and easily tell its a propaganda piece – the LTTE, for whatever reason, has not gone out of its way to get every detail right, as was the case with this video.
The LTTE-supportive Tamil diaspora hacked the army.lk website last year. This shows they are tech savy. Thus it is possible that they knew how to change the data.
As tamilnet indicated the the Sri Lankan government looked at the video shown on Channel 4 which is possibly not the original video.
The experts from the U. N. looked at a version of the video (not knowing either language) and concluded it was real. Associated Press indicates the confirmed video shows Tamil speakers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDn3iSKD-Pc
The Tamil dialogue makes more sense in context of the video than the weird Sinhalese presented in the Channel 4 version by the Murthy fellow. Therefore, I’m more likely to think that the Tamil version is the real one and it shows the LTTE executing army prisoners which they no doubt did in great numbers.
Heshan, you’re deviating!
I am aware of everything you have said. The reason I didn’t even bother mentioning that was because I have said the very same points and discussed it months ago here:
http://www.groundviews.org/2009/08/29/a-video-of-shame-and-outrage-responses-positions-and-clarifications/#comment-13038
Why not quote this bit also then Heshan?
Image Authentication” Version 1.0 2007.06.041, establishing the authenticity of a disputed multimedia (video and audio) recording to a high degree of scientific certainty is highly problematic, particularly when provenance of the recording cannot be verified, as is the case with the subject of this analysis.
What do you think that paragraph is attempting to convey?
“BUT the point is that if if this was a case of forgery, it was very, very, well done. Which actually negates the possibility that the LTTE was behind such forgery”
You have to admit that LTTE are not completely illiterate people either. Inhuman but not stupid – well… now it’s sorta debatable, the stupidity. These guys read books and built improvised weapons. Read terrorist manuals and built improvised explosive devices. Used satellite technology to communicate with the world. During the offensive we saw evidence of the vast amounts of high tech, electronic equipment that were seized including computers. SLA even uncovered a TV studio with state of the art equipment that uploaded LTTE news to satellites. Smuggled parts of air crafts and assembled them. Yes it was a tin can plane but an average Joe or mechanic can’t do that. Almost built a submarine!! These are all specialists fields where one has to learn and develop skills over a considerable period of time. Editing a piece of mobile phone video? Peace of cake given their rap sheet!
Ok fine say it’s not the LTTE, there are many in the diaspora who could assist in such a concoction. Many work in the software field and have done quite well. We don’t all believe this video was made in Sri Lanka. In fact there is no evidence in the footage OR metadata that decisively ties this video to Sri Lanka.
Point is people can hack even the most sophisticated tamper proof methods these days. Everything gets reverse engineered and not even the smartest minds can put a stop to that. Why can’t Microsoft/Apple/Adobe/Oracle/etc keep a lid on software piracy? These are examples of reverse engineering encrypted coding. In a simple video file meta data are not encrypted. Had the video had some sort of unique digital signatures then we could have given sway to reasoning tampering would have been next to impossible. Otherwise the same algorithms used to read it can be reversed to write back. Especially for open shared standards like 3GPP I believe the source code is widely available. Please correct me on this if I am wrong.
Forget it was tampered with for a moment. The LTTE could also execute SLA POWs wearing their own captured uniforms and create this video. How is this scenario going to be exhausted? We all saw the busted camera guy in one of their released distress photos. Propaganda is their forte and no one would deny that.
Point is this video is no where near enough to trigger an investigation. Provides absolutely no credible evidence that ties it to Sri Lanka or SLA other than couple of camouflage outfits that resemble SLA uniform sort of and hearing some Sinhala words. Both of which LTTE is well known to exploit.
Most LTTE suicide carder spoke immaculate Sinhalese and got through many hoops during their operations in Colombo to get close to their targets. In one case the woman almost married a Sinhalese man, such was the effectiveness of their deception. Not only that, infiltrated the military hospital and got close to SF. And it is well known fact that on many operations LTTE carder have disguised them selves in SLA uniforms. If my memory serves me right for the Anuradhapura air base attack, LTTE came in SLA uniform. So they seem to have ample supply.
Given all these, the 2 pieces of visual information cannot be considered conclusive to come to any judgement that implicates SLA in such a heinous crime from this video. In fact I still maintain it’s outrageous!
Either way Heshan, we’re covering old ground here. This topic was beaten to death with a bat and is something that was debunked well by Off the Cuff and others in this thread.
http://www.groundviews.org/2009/08/29/a-video-of-shame-and-outrage-responses-positions-and-clarifications/
Re-read and only bring up things that are new please. I presume there is nothing else left as every little detail of this video has been well scrutinised now including Alston’s debatable report that tries to cover his own ass after going gun ho without checking basic facts. They say look before you jump. Some advice that would have served well for the credibility/reputation of C4 & Phillip Alston.
Heshan, standing on your platform now: “altering meta data is very, very hard”, and if the video is authentic, don’t you have to accept the date of recording in the meta data? Which is inconsistent with the story that is alleged with the video?
Or are you accepting the position that the person who took this footage intentionally altered the date of his camera phone to a future date PRIOR TO RECORDING anticipating one day this video will be leaked and it will come under the scrutiny of the world?
Which I am sure not something that would have gone through in the mind while busily executing people. If the person was so insightful and had a freaky premonition capability wouldn’t he have refrained from recording in the first place? It’s just that this sort of speculation makes me laugh really. To go against technical evidence that rebutes the whole thing, and now claims hard to fake!
This is a very very big assumption and no independent court or jury would buy this in a murder trial. Especially when the perpetrator cannot even be positively identified.
Good god, we would be sending a lot of men to the gallows in this world if such logic/evidence was used to convict people. In this case every soldier in SLA that is brown and err maybe have curly hair? Alright boys, line up all of you 5000! You’ve all been vevy vevy baaaadddd!
What is your position on this now? Date was preset by the mystery soldier?
Observer:
There is a good reason I consider the tape not to be forged, besides metadata. It is because the Sri Lankan Army has a long long history of stripping bodies, even dead ones, and then, for some reason, taking pictures for all the world to see:
http://danuka.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/20090519_b08.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0ecW1Zt0qS01E/610x.jpg
http://sinhale.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/several-dead-bodies-of-ltte-cadres-who-were-killed-by-sl-security-forces-in-mulathivu.jpg
http://www.uktamilnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/thuvaraka1.jpg
In my opinion, past behavior speaks for itself. It is not a mere coincidence that the people in the CH4 tape were stripped before being executed, just like it is not a mere coincidence that that small boy in Colombo was stopped in public at a police checkpoint in Colombo a few months ago and forced to undress.
An independent court would be very, very interested in the last two paragraphs. Guess who prime suspect number #1 would be? Of course there would be an investigation before anyone was possibly convicted. But that is the exact point: the Sri Lankan Government is not even at the investigative stage ; it is still denying the video is real. Don’t you think that if it was so easy to dispove the involvement of the Sri Lankan Army, then GOSL would simply let the investigation take its natural course and have its name cleared.
You know when they catch a shoplifter at a store, the guy is taken to the office and asked to empty his pockets. They don’t simply ask him, “do you have anything in your pockets.” He has to PHYSICALLY show the pockets. There is a STAGE beyond which word of mouth guarantees fail. If you replace shoplifting with stripping bodies, the parallel is easy to show. Look at the three links I gave earlier. Logically speaking, why should anyone be forced to swallow GOSL’s word of mouth guarantee that its soldiers have stopped engaging in such behavior ?
The other problem is that at this stage, only GOSL can do an investigation. Only the SLA still has access to a lot of places in the North. So it is the responsibility of GOSL to go ahead with a proper investigation.
Regarding whether the metadata was tampered with, yes it is a possibility. Yes, that is science. Just like it is a possibility that a comet will crash into the Earth tomorrow. Just like it is a possibility that the fault line along the Earth’s crust will again be shaken, and 30,000 more ppl will die in a tsunami tomorrow. Probability is not a liability, it is an asset. It is a well-established mathematical discipline, and follows a logical structure. The whole point is for you to be able to make valid inferences based on predictable patterns.
Observer:
Regarding the date, at least for this brand of mobile phone, it can be easily altered by the user himself. When the report talks about metadata being altered, the reference is to metadata that is controlled by the phone company itself.
“However, the encoded date is not conclusive evidence of the actual recording date and time, because it is derived from the device’s time and date setting, which, according to documentation obtained for representative Philips mobile phone devices sold and/or operable in Sri Lanka (see attached Philips Xenium X710 Manual, Pg. 8), can be set by the user to any desired date and time,
irrespective of time and date references that may or may not be transmitted by the mobile phone network.”
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/issues/executions/docs/TechnicalNoteAppendix.pdf
“http://danuka.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/20090519_b08.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0ecW1Zt0qS01E/610x.jpg
http://sinhale.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/several-dead-bodies-of-ltte-cadres-who-were-killed-by-sl-security-forces-in-mulathivu.jpg
http://www.uktamilnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/thuvaraka1.jpg”
Only the second picture and slightly the first supports your claim. The third show no stripping of clothes. It show dead LTTE cadres in Mulathivu picture; the fourth only appeared in LTTE sources and can’t be attributed to the army.
You say the army has a tradition of “long long history of stripping bodies, even dead ones, and then, for some reason, taking pictures for all the world to see”:
Where are the pictures from the JVP takedown 1987-1991 then? Or the pictures from the war during the 1990s? From the cited sources it seems a very recent trend if at all a trend. And the army has never taken a video (no history) of any person being executed and no such claim has come up before this German group of Tamil expatriates decided to release this video.
And further the second and the first picture were taken by the media not the army. In the Channel 4 case a participant in the alleged execution himself takes the picture which is unprecedented in this “long long history”.
The LTTE and the pro-LTTE diaspora work with videos and pictures much more than the Army I would say.
Heshan,
What you are really saying is that you are absolutely clueless about country where the CH4 events took place. You have so far not shown an IOTA of factual evidence to prove it.
There is absolutely no geographic evidence available. Not even a recognizable Landscape or Landmark. Point them out, without going round the Mulberry Bush.
The LTTE was capable of assassinating a former PM of India in India. Before that “There has never been a recorded instance of the LTTE doing so, not even once.” (to use your own words).
It was capable of not only transporting the unfortunates to Tamil Nadu but of executing them as well. They would do ANYTHING to achieve their objectives.
I noticed that you left out the Tamil Dissidents from the equation. Was that because there is a History of such executions?
You are INCAPABLE of providing the “Strong Evidence” that you bragged about earlier.
Dear Human / Observer,
People like Heshan have selective amnesia when it comes to citing events.
Heshan has been consistently trying to establish a case for a TREND in stripping prisoners and attributing that to the SLA. One of his main and repeatedly quoted incident is that of Anuradhapura Air Force base attackers (who died in the attack fully clothed).
In the case of the US Forces People were STRIPPED naked while alive. Made to swim in their own Urine and sexually abused while in custody. Pictures abound on the Internet where even WOMEN soldiers took part in such degrading acts But people like Heshan are BLIND to them and even will make a case to absolve the US forces.
In order to make the world a better place, HR violations should be investigated. But there cannot be any selective investigations.
An HR Regime of investigation, Prosecution and Punishment should be common to any country and any person without exceptions. The LAW has to reign supreme and the scales held even.
I believe that EVERY COUNTRY MUST BE EQUALLY HELD ACCOUNTABLE UNDER AN IMPARTIAL INTERNATIONAL BODY, established for the purpose, without exceptions.
Heshan,
You posted 4 links claiming striped victims. Why is that ONLY ONE has naked bodies?
WHY THE blatant and SHAMELESS DECEPTION?
How can anyone trust what you write?
You are proving to be a first grade LIAR
Body of Prabhakaran in a Loin Cloth
http://danuka.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/20090519_b08.jpg
Hundreds of Dead LTTE fully clothed
http://sinhale.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/several-dead-bodies-of-ltte-cadres-who-were-killed-by-sl-security-forces-in-mulathivu.jpg
A FULLY CLOTHED woman
http://www.uktamilnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/thuvaraka1.jpg
human:
Regarding the third picture:
http://sinhale.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/several-dead-bodies-of-ltte-cadres-who-were-killed-by-sl-security-forces-in-mulathivu.jpg
The upper bodies of the dead LTTE are clearly exposed. That also counts as stripping.
As for the fourth picture, I highly doubt the LTTE forged it, but okay, I am willing to drop it. The other three pictures are nevertheless revealing. In particular, the pictures pertaining to the Anuradhapura debacle, in which the dead bodies of the LTTE cadres were stripped and intentionally shown to the people in the town.
“Where are the pictures from the JVP takedown 1987-1991 then? Or the pictures from the war during the 1990s? ”
What about 1996?
“Fourteen skeletons of Tamil youths, killed and buried by the Sri Lankan security forces, were found last September during the exhumation of graves at Chemmani, in the suburbs of Jaffna, in northern Sri Lanka. The skeletons are believed to have belonged to Tamil youths who disappeared after the army recaptured Jaffna during a renewed war drive against separatist Liberation Tigers of Tamil Ealam (LTTE) in 1995-96.”
Ex-soldiers called as witnesses pointed out 25 sites, provided descriptions of the youths killed, and took the magistrate to some of their homes. They said that army officers and soldiers had used trucks to transport the youths—some of whom were still alive—to the gravesites. Many of the victims were naked or in their underwear. The living were killed and all the bodies then buried. The ex-soldiers were flown back to Colombo at the end of the three-day inquiry and were not present when the exhumations began on September 6. Neither were the media, who had been permitted to observe the earlier excavations.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/oct1999/chem-o13.shtml
“And the army has never taken a video (no history) of any person being executed and no such claim has come up before this German group of Tamil expatriates decided to release this video.”
The video was leaked. The fact that it was made with a cell phone also implicates the SLA… the probability that an SLA member would have a cell phone is much higher than the chance that an LTTE member would.
“In the Channel 4 case a participant in the alleged execution himself takes the picture which is unprecedented in this “long long history”.”
There were only a few prisoners so the fact that one of the executioners decided not to participate is a trivial point.
Off the Cuff:
I have already answered all of your arguments. There is no way the LTTE took prisoners to India just to make a propaganda video. Not even your friend Observer is supporting you on that one. At least admit the location is Sri Lanka.
Heshan,
Dead bodies are always stripped for post mortems. Again you are dabbling on about something I have already discussed. I refer you to
http://www.groundviews.org/2010/03/14/war-crimes-and-human-rights-in-sri-lanka-a-home-grown-solution/comment-page-3/#comment-15844
Point 10.
Suicide carder sometimes, needs to be stripped to remove the suicide belts they’re hiding, strapped to their bodies. It’s called bomb disposal! It is an established fact that the group that came to attack the Anuradhapura air base was a suicide squad. LTTE has confirmed this. So any bodies in tact are carder who failed to detonate their explosives due to swift action by the SLA SF. Prior to processing these bodies, specialist bomb disposal personnel need to neutralise any explosives that are still wired. btw have you ever been to a morgue? the bodies are naked in bags. They only dress them up for the funeral display.
So can you suggest how the SLA can remove unexploded explosive belts on or under their clothing without removing the clothes at least partially first? Bomb disposal personel are not wizards! If you ever see a semi naked photo of a dead carder I can guarantee this is the reason.
Then you can’t go on to infer that SLA enjoys stripping dead bodies. That’s just sadistic and doesn’t make any sense. Clearly not a reasonable argument for linking the video with SLA.
Also keep in mind all the dead bodies are handed to the International Red Cross for body exchange between SLA & LTTE across the front lines. Has Red Cross complained that they were unusually naked when they were handed over to them? I absolutely don;t think so, and there has been no reports along those lines from what I can recall. I think we can hold the Red Cross as a corroborator to what you suggest is ridiculous.
I am not against investigating HR violations. Especially the kind that is depicted in this video. If that is a real life incident then the perpetrators should receive capital punishment. However, the video that is being discussed here is controversial to say the least.. with very good reason. It does not properly identify any perpetrators to take action nor victims. Nor does the video gives any indisputable evidence as to when, where this happened. Top it off there are no witnesses either. Getting to the bottom of this is near impossible. How can the government even initiate an investigation? Can you suggest a lead that can be useful if an investigation was to happen? Just finding the crime scene is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Go look for an open grass plain – that;s easy aint it?? Could be our local cricket fields in the suburbs.
Had this video identified clearly the faces or name tags on uniform, reference to a squadron or a prominent land mark, some sort of an unique identifier other than Sinhala and camouflage which are very vague (easy to fake) then we have some sort of a start. How can the government possibly investigate on this particular footage?
Best analogy I can give you is…. if you come across a dog turd on the street, you can’t run after all the dogs in town to find out which dog was responsible. You look silly!
Heshan,
” I have already answered all of your arguments. There is no way the LTTE took prisoners to India just to make a propaganda video. Not even your friend Observer is supporting you on that one. At least admit the location is Sri Lanka.”
Sorry Heshan you have not answered any.
What is there to admit about the location? I asked you to prove it and you have failed miserably.
There is no way you said. That’s your personal opinion. The interpretation you want to believe. We are not interested in your opinion. Provide PROOF.
You make emphatic claims but fail to deliver when challenged.
Provide the geographical evidence to prove that the Location is not Tamil Nadu or proof to confirm wherever you claim the location to be
Dear Heshan,
Thanks for fantastic posts.
I’m your avid reader and learn a lot from your exquisite comments.
You are great !!
Heshan,
“The upper bodies of the dead LTTE are clearly exposed. That also counts as stripping. “
Wow what a reversal from the original claim. Even the above statement is untrue. SOME of the bodies don’t have upper clothing. It is not EVIDENCE of STRIPPING.
Stripping conveys a degrading meaning in the context of your original claim. Stripping in the degrading sense means the removal of clothing to expose “Private Parts” of a body. It is not the type of stripping that is done during a search (say a strip search in an Airport).
Bodies found on a battle field can have body parts missing not only clothing.
In Sri Lanka you can see the Naked male upper body even in the CITY. It’s a regular sight in the villages. But when you see a naked Male upper body in a collection of CORPSES of LTTE fighters in a war situation the ONLY inference that you can make is that they were STRIPPED?
How many exposed female Breasts did you count in that picture?
Why only the top and why not the bottom to expose the genitalia? That was what the US Forces did remember?
only ONE out of the FOUR links you provided as examples of STRIPPING contains Corpses with the Genitalia exposed. Why do you SHAMELESSLY resort to this type of DIRTY TRICKS?
Heshan,
“The video was leaked. The fact that it was made with a cell phone also implicates the SLA…”
How so? What is the convoluted logic that you bring forth to prove that one?
“the probability that an SLA member would have a cell phone is much higher than the chance that an LTTE member would.”
How did you arrive at this conclusion? Please provide proof instead of your opinion.
The LTTE had mobile phones and that was why the network operators were ordered to switch off their Networks in operational areas. The LTTE was also using mobile phones with INDIAN numbers which were registering to Indian networks. They also used Satellite phones and CDMA phones
“There were only a few prisoners so the fact that one of the executioners decided not to participate is a trivial point.”
It’s not that TRIVIAL as you try to make out. The amount of panning and close ups that is contained in the video cannot be done in secret. The changing camera angles and camera movements are evidence that the videographer was walking up and down with his camera aimed, for at least 77 seconds non stop. This does not support a secret filming. This was filmed with the full knowledge of the perpetrators. The perpetrators allowed the MURDERS to be filmed for posterity. Evidence that could be used to hang them. Not something that killers would allow.
Strangely the sound track does not contain any Tamil, spoken by the victims. No protests, no arguments, just meek silent submission.
With the amount of publicity given to this video it is inconceivable to assume that the killers would have missed viewing it. Since a video unsupported by the videographer’s evidence is of little value in obtaining a conviction and since the Killers KNOW the Identity of the cameraman he would have been eliminated by the killers themselves unless he is safe overseas.
Why is he shy to give evidence? …..safety cannot be the issue if he is abroad.
Dear Gunalan,
Could you kindly show us which of Heshan’s posts was “fantastic” or “exquisite?” I couldn’t find it.
Thanks.
Gunalan,
Are you sure you are not the doppelganger of Heshan?
Gunalan:
Thanks for the compliments. Although, to be honest, there is nothing fantastic about what I write. It is just common sense.
Observer:
“Suicide carder sometimes, needs to be stripped to remove the suicide belts they’re hiding, strapped to their bodies.”
I agree with that statement. However, there was no need to strip Prabhakaran down to his loin cloth and let the media take pictures. There is something rather perverted and twisted about that.
Regarding Anuradhapura, same logic. The bodies were completely stripped and driven through the town at slow speed in bullock carts so that the people in the town could watch. Look at the picture:
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0ecW1Zt0qS01E/610x.jpg
The bodies are not even covered!
Obviously it was intentional! Notice how the people in the town have blocked the path of the cart. The cart has stopped so that people can view the naked bodies.
Let me repeat: I have no issue with bodies being stripped and searched for hidden explosives. But the above picture shows something else – if that is how they treat dead people, imagine how they treat the living.
“However, the video that is being discussed here is controversial to say the least.. with very good reason. It does not properly identify any perpetrators to take action nor victims. Nor does the video gives any indisputable evidence as to when, where this happened. Top it off there are no witnesses either. Getting to the bottom of this is near impossible. ”
I agree that it is a difficult case to crack. However, there have been harder cases. Whether or not the case can be cracked is best left to the police. The investigation could even reveal that the LTTE is responsible for the whole affair. In any case, the government needs to conduct the investigation. In my opinion, the lack of an investigation is what has upset a lot of people, myself included, more so than the incident itself. This sort of thing will happen in any military – no one will deny that. The difference is in how a particular military/government reacts – is there a cover-up or an investigation? When there is a cover-up, it sends a signal to the perpetrators that such behavior is okay. So they do it again. And others join in. You see why an investigation is important. Even if the culprits are not found, it will send a signal to other potential offenders to think twice before acting up.
Heshan,
“……..driven through the town at slow speed in bullock carts…”
Where is the BULL?
Emigrated perhaps !!!
Heshan that’s a trailer attached to a hand tractor …..
That was just for fun.
On a serious note I too do not agree with what was done as decency should have prevailed. However this has no bearing on the CH4
“I agree that it is a difficult case to crack. ”
That is an understatement. Its an IMPOSSIBLE case to crack unless more evidence is forthcoming.
Only the Videographer and the perpetrators know even the country where it happened. EVERYONE ELSE is just groping in the dark.
The videographer can easily claim refuge in any western country he/she chooses. Hence safety claims does not hold water for the continued secrecy.
Bring forth the ONLY living person (other than the perpetrators) who can give evidence, else the CH4 gets trashed as a propaganda stunt.
Off the Cuff:
Not every case has a simple solution. Some cases are solved 15-20 years after the initial investigation has begun. On the other hand, if you don’t open an investigation, the probability that any witness will come forward is actually lower.
Regarding CH4, it is actually in GOSL’s favor to open an investigation. If no witnesses come forward after the investigation has begun, it will support GOSL’s assertion that the whole thing is a hoax (although not beyond a shadow of a doubt). What I am saying is, GOSL should try to get the ball in its court – open an investigation and challenge the accusers to provide whatever information they are withholding.
On the other hand, inaction implies guilt. That is the scenario we are dealing with right now. Particularly GOSL’s rejection of the claims made by Alston’s experts. The whole thing looks like a cover-up by GOSL.
Heshan,
Things are not as simple as it looks.
Allowing an International investigation without establishing a COMMON REGIME for such a thing is detrimental not only to Sri Lanka but to other smaller countries as well.
Hence the FIRST thing that must come is a “COMMON REGIME” for such investigations where NO COUNTRY is EXEMPT.
Secondly, in order for SL to initiate an inquiry on a questionable video the connection of that Video to SL must be established. Hence it is imperative for the videographer to come out as a witness and establish the connection to SL.
Without meeting these two requirements it’s foolhardy to expect SL to do anything.
Is that all you got?
“I agree with that statement. However, there was no need to strip Prabhakaran down to his loin cloth and let the media take pictures. There is something rather perverted and twisted about that.”
Right, right, right… I suppose there was a burning need to strip POWs at gitmo and bastardise them alive for the US Army! Absolutely not perverted and twisted. Darn it.. should’ve known that it’s acceptable when people are alive! So much more respectable! I guess also beaming live footage of Saddam being led to the gallows was dignified too I suppose. Great viewing over a beer!
Prabakaran footage was taken by the SLA and not MEDIA! Don’t mix things up as you always seem to be doing. Like I said checking the man who led a a whole squadron of suicidal maniacs and wore cyanide on his neck is a good candidate to be checked for explosives strapped to his body. Shame he had to wear his g-string on that particular day. That’s why I prefer my boxer shorts in case I get caught with my pants down.
Heshan, I have seen suicide carder’s body in all it;s absolute pieces with my own eyes. If they wanted dignity, well surely they chose the wrong career. Killing innocent people in cold blood doesn’t get you dignity.
I remember well the gory details of flesh scattered all over the ground. Emergency services who responded along with my self, couldn’t give a damn about the body parts. Priority was extracting wounded and getting them to hospitals. Establishing secure perimeters, looking for evidence. Part of looking for evidence is photographing the scene in its all the gory details before you even start removing naked burnt out body parts. Yes both the attackers and their innocent victims naked body parts were photographed. What sick twisted law enforcement people hey!!!! Some media vultures who got there quickly may have taken photos as well before establishing the perimeter! Who freaking knows??? You will realise if you ever respond to such absolute terror and bloody chaos.
Bottom line is, suicide combatants are an entirely different class of combatants. They;re not even classified as conventional combatants who fall under geneva conventions. They suffer horrific mutilations due to the sheer amount of explosives they have on them. When you clean up the mess of a whole squadron of suicide carder, trust me, it’s not a pretty picture! Naked, burnt out, decapitated. You name it! It’s all there. If someone takes a photo of that carnage and you want to make that a case point, get real!
Sri Lankan civil war was a unique case where such horror was the norm due to the sheer unrestrained brutality of the LTTE. If you want to keep linking to that photo to make a case, then you must be really joking! What’s really twisted and sick is the LTTE and the mentality of the people who blindly supported them. You might as well have worshiped Satan!
You don’t even have a clue as to what you’re even talking about! People who have dealt with it gets it. MR administration helped deliver the fatal blow to this sickness. You don’t have to be Einstein to figure out why he will win the elections! Why people are with him.
“Right, right, right… I suppose there was a burning need to strip POWs at gitmo and bastardise them alive for the US Army! ”
Show me a single picture of a Gitmo detainee being stripped that is publicly available on the Internet.
“Prabakaran footage was taken by the SLA and not MEDIA!”
Is that because journalists are BANNED from the war zone? Only the guy from Daily News is allowed? On the other hand, why did the SLA choose to reveal such footage? They could have simply revealed the dead body of Prabhakaran, fully clothed. It is trivial to prove that the body was indeed Prabhakaran… the LTTE could not hide the fact for very long. In particular, if the LTTE controls zero territory, and the top leadership is pretty much decimated, Prabhakaran becomes irrelevant.
I think you’re missing the point. No US soldier would dare reveal naked bodies of Taliban or Iraqi fighters to hundreds of civilians or let the media take pictures. For the simple reason that the US soldier would lose his job. BUT looking at the pictures of Prabhakaran and Anurahapura we can see that it is official practice in the SLA. You can beat around the bush as many times as you want, but the photographs speak for themselves.
“Establishing secure perimeters, looking for evidence…. its all the gory details before you even start removing naked burnt out body parts. Yes both the attackers and their innocent victims naked body parts were photographed. What sick twisted law enforcement people hey!!!! ”
What does driving a tractor through the town at slow speed so curious people can view naked dead bodies (that are intentionally left uncovered) , have to do with securing the perimeter? I must have missed that stipulation on the advertisement for law enforcement personnel!
By the way, you also missed my point that I don’t care if the bodies are searched.
I would also mention that it is not necessary to strip a body down entirely to uncover explosives. You can use a wand, like they do at airports.
Off the Cuff:
“Allowing an International investigation without establishing a COMMON REGIME for such a thing is detrimental not only to Sri Lanka but to other smaller countries as well.”
Each country has its own set of laws and does not wish to be judged by the laws of other nations. Most militaries also have their own set of laws that apply to their personnel exclusively. On the other hand, if a country willingly joins the United Nations, it has certain legal obligations to fulfill. If Sri Lanka left the UN, then no one would have a legal obligation to complain about CH4 or any other such war crime that occurs there. North Korea has “re-education” camps, where sometimes dissidents are sentenced to 10 years of hard labor for speaking out against the Government. You don’t see Alston calling for investigations – North Korea is not a member of the UN.
Heshan, if you purposely chose to not understand out of convenience what I am saying then you’re being deceitful. You failed to grasp what I clearly stated, and I know it is not because you’re incapable of understanding what’s written but you have no come back or answers.
My point was that when LTTE suicide carder attack, it is mostly behind enemy lines at civilian targets or military targets that are located in close proximity to civilians, like the Anuradhapura base for example. When an unexpected terror incident happens it takes time to mobilise authorities to bring the situation under control. During this time media and civilians naturally flock to the incident location. I have seen this with first hand experience. People get pushed back but they can’t blind fold them for god’s sake. Sometimes these civilians help with the wounded like I was caught up. Some media can take pictures in the meantime and post on news papers, TV etc. This is beyond the control of the forces & emergency services sometimes.
In this case while the forces were gathering dead bodies to be taken to the morgue, if curious civilians had a look then yes it was a lapse by the Army that they did not setup a secure perimeter to prevent them from getting close to the mop up operations. These lapses can happen while hurriedly and busily assisting wounded fellow soldiers and enemy combatants. But you cannot call that parading. Parading is people running after the cart when the cart being driven through the middle of the town centre while people jeering. During the 30 year history of this war not even Prabkaran accused SLA of such indignity although you are now. Like I said earlier, International Red Cross was active at the front lines and I did not hear them complain. LTTE is a group that sethered 13 heads of SF personell and stuck them on sticks for SLA to find among other indignation to their enemy soldier. Even when such things were done SLA restrained them selves. That’s discipline. Is the cart being towed across a busy town? No! It’s a handful of people. Are people seem to be jeering? No, in fact they look shocked.
Parading was beaming live TV footage of certain enemies of NATO being sent to the gallows for millions to watch. Parading was alive POWs blind folded and chained to carts, being herded from one tent to another in their orange uniforms. Now that was carting we all saw. That’s humane isn’t it?
http://vice.typepad.com/vice_magazine/images/2009/01/30/prisonerguantanamobaycuba.jpg
Anyway here’s more willy nilly civilian slaughter by US Army. This time journalists and children riddled with bullets by a mighty helicopter gun ship. US army “regrets” the incident. Alston sits quiet grinding his teeth at SL. The world keeps spinning. Accept and come to peace with how the world works and the lob sided injustices that prevail. How much else must they be hiding?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article7088548.ece
The Pentagon would not confirm the video’s authenticity on the record.
“At this time, we are working to verify the source of the video, its veracity, and when or where it was recorded,” a statement from US military headquarters in Iraq said late on Monday.
Dear Pentagon, Phillip Alston has 3 expert video reviewers at his pay now if it is of any assistance to you. Glad to be of help. Thank me later
A short time later a van arrives to pick up the wounded and the pilots open fire on it, wounding two children inside. “Well, it’s their fault for bring their kids into a battle,” one pilot says.
Oh yeah baby… unleash that sub machine gun on those tiny heads.. at how many rounds per second.
It’s the EFFING CHILDREN’S FAULT ISN’T IT????
Please understand. Sri Lanka will do things our own way. We do not think US and NATO does things humanely enough for us to take advice from them.
“Show me a single picture of a Gitmo detainee being stripped that is publicly available on the Internet.”
They are publicly available on the Internet.
Warning about the link for the readers. Please note they’re graphic before clicking them.
http://whitehouser.com/news/anti-terrorism-efforts-tainted-by-torture-photos/
There are many more and I’ll let the readers to Google them up.
Also I suggest that the Wikipedia entry of gitmo is a better read than Heshan’s gitmo version he has in mind!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp
Dear Observer.
“I remember well the gory details of flesh scattered all over the ground.”
Thank you for sharing your story. It helps to understand where each person is coming from. I myself was fortunate never to have seen such a terrible scene other than on TV. Let’s just hope we all find a way to make things better, Sri Lanka needs (deserves) it badly.
Heshan,
“You don’t see Alston calling for investigations – North Korea is not a member of the UN”
North Korea has been a member of the UN since September, 1991.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_member_states
Observer:
“My point was that when LTTE suicide carder attack, it is mostly behind enemy lines at civilian targets or military targets that are located in close proximity to civilians, like the Anuradhapura base for example.”
What does that have to do with parading naked bodies to people in the town? Does it make it correct? I think that’s what you’re trying to say, but afraid to say it. So why don’t you say it instead of beating around the bush.
http://whitehouser.com/news/anti-terrorism-efforts-tainted-by-torture-photos/
You posted a link from Abu Grahib. All of the American soldiers you see in that picture are now in jail.
What about the soldiers in this picture?
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0ecW1Zt0qS01E/610x.jpg
“Parading was beaming live TV footage of certain enemies of NATO being sent to the gallows for millions to watch. Parading was alive POWs blind folded and chained to carts, being herded from one tent to another in their orange uniforms. Now that was carting we all saw. That’s humane isn’t it? ”
Is this the picture you gave to back up your claims?
http://vice.typepad.com/vice_magazine/images/2009/01/30/prisonerguantanamobaycuba.jpg
The chains are missing from the cart. There are no chains. Being herded from one tent to another? Actually, Guantanamo Bay is a 30 million USD facility… there are no tents. Here’s a picture of the inside:
http://cache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/gtmo_12_10/g21_2504T033.jpg
Do you see a tent? If you see a tent, please indicate where.
Observer and the rest of the patriots:
“Show me a single picture of a Gitmo detainee being stripped that is publicly available on the Internet.”
“They are publicly available on the Internet.”
They are privately available in the imagination of Observer. That’s why he posted a picture of Abu Ghraib.
Anyone else want to try? Show me a single picture of American soldiers abusing prisoners and getting away with it.
You people claim Iraqi’s and Afghani’s are being randomly killed off like flies… where is the photographic evidence? Find the evidence and I will personally write to Alston himself… I will be sure to include your comments!
Other than that, continue enjoying whatever comes out of your imagination. Bit of advice: keep a few hrs time interval between drinking and trying to debate these issues… logic comes easier when you’re sober.
Heshan,
“Each country has its own set of laws and does not wish to be judged by the laws of other nations. Most militaries also have their own set of laws that apply to their personnel exclusively. On the other hand, if a country willingly joins the United Nations, it has certain legal obligations to fulfill.”
Very enlightening interpretation.
A lot of gobbledygook to say one law for you small guys and another for us big guys.
Heshan is the USA a member state of the UN?
Did she join the UN “Willingly”?
Which NATO country is NOT a member of the UN?
Is Australia not a member state?
Were any of them forced to join the UN?
Are they accountable for Human Rights violations?
Can you explain why the UN and her officials have one set of laws to the Lankan State and another for the Affluent West?
Can you explain why it is unjustified for the Sri Lankan state to insist on establishing a “COMMON REGIME” for such investigations where NO COUNTRY is EXEMPT on account of it’s military might or on account of the size of its financial contribution to the UN.
Can you explain why The so called Human Rights Champions shy away from establishing a Common Regime of Inquiry? What are they afraid of? What do they want to hide?
Is it to ensure that they will not be held accountable for their criminal actions?
Here is another incident to keep you occupied (courtesy “Observer”)
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MARK EVANS, HEAD OF JOINT OPERATIONS (13 FEB 2009): During the conduct of this operation there was an exchange of fire between our forces and the Taliban. Tragically a number of people were killed and wounded during this incident. Current reporting indicates that those killed include a suspected insurgent and, sadly, local nationals, including five children killed and two children and two adults injured.
Notice the wording “….. those killed include a suspected insurgent and, sadly, local nationals, including five children killed and two children and two adults injured.” Very innocuous and casual indeed.
A ratio of One SUSPECT (not even a confirmed terrorist) to at least 6 civilians dead.
ABC’s Dateline (Australia) states
The Australian Defence Force had also begun investigating the incident, and Dateline has spent nearly a year seeking answers from them, through meetings with senior Defence officials and formal requests for information. But the ADF has hardly been forthcoming, even at the highest level.
We provided the ADF with images of Zahir Kahn and a transcript of his claims. They thanked Dateline “I would like to take this opportunity in thanking you for your assistance so far, and the material you have provided.” and confirmed Zahir Kahn’s list of those killed. They are Kahn’s brother, Amrullah, and his 10-year-old son, a nephew, aged 11, Kahn’s teenage sister and two babies – a 1-year-old boy and a 2-year-old girl – and Kahn’s teenage sister. We told them that the Afghan community in Perth could put them in touch with the survivors of the raid. Two military investigators then met with Farid Popal.
http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/transcript/id/600357/n/Questions-from-Oruzgan
No reason for Alston or Ms Pillai to start an inquiry or get their tails up and get overly excited on this one though, as those killed are not Tamil.
Afghan babies and children are not human and hence are expendable right? Any amount of them can be killed and maimed in order to get at just ONE TERRORIST SUSPECT?
Why worry at all, as the blind and lop sided UN and her officials don’t recognize these as war crimes anyway.
Dear Observer,
I too noticed the following statement that speaks volumes about you. Please allow me to extend my personal gratitude for your selfless service which is often taken for granted.
“Emergency services who responded along with my self,”
Off the Cuff:
There is no such thing as a common regime. There is only international law. That is the reality, so the sooner you accept it, the better. If Sri Lanka wishes, it can quit the UN… no one is asking Sri Lanka to be a member of the UN. It will lose some benefits, but that is a different story. Why does Sri Lanka chose to be part of an organization that yourself and others consider to be a part of a Western conspiracy?
*choose to be part of
On the other hand, I consider the United Nations to be a failed organization. If Alston had not consulted three independent experts, I would not pay much attention to his statements regarding CH4. It is not the UN and Alston which necessitate an investigation… it is the judgment of the three experts that CH4 is authentic, and the blatant refusal of GOSL to accept those findings. Such refusal implies complicity on the part of GOSL… this is the real concern.
Whatever happens in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. are side issues that have nothing to do with CH4.
Heshan,
Gobbledygook again. International Law is the “COMMON REGIME”. In your own words “That is the reality, so the sooner you accept it, the better.”
It has to be EQUALLY applicable to ANY country not SELECTIVELY applicable.
You have been sidestepping the main issue
Can you explain why the UN and her officials have one set of laws to the Lankan State and another for the Affluent West?
Can you explain why it is unjustified for the Sri Lankan state to insist on establishing a “COMMON REGIME” for such investigations where NO COUNTRY is EXEMPT on account of it’s military might or on account of the size of its financial contribution to the UN.
Can you explain why The so called Human Rights Champions shy away from establishing a Common Regime of Inquiry? What are they afraid of? What do they want to hide?
“If Alston had not consulted three independent experts, I would not pay much attention to his statements regarding CH4. It is not the UN and Alston which necessitate an investigation… it is the judgment of the three experts that CH4 is authentic, and the blatant refusal of GOSL to accept those findings.” so you wrote.
No EXPERT Connects the CH4 to SL. So far No Living being has been able to do so. In your own words “That is the reality, so the sooner you accept it, the better.”
Why should the SL Govt answer to something that is not connected with it? Expecting her to do so is downright foolish.
First produce the WITNESS who claims CH4 was shot in SL. Why is it taking so long?
Else this rigmarole sounds like Harry Bella Fonte’s song about Henry being asked to fetch water for Liza in a bucket with a hole.
“Whatever happens in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. are side issues that have nothing to do with CH4.”
No they are not. They have the same common denominator “Human Rights”.
Take away the Human Rights Factor and no one has a case.
That Heshan is the problem ALL the proponents of CH4 are faced with. The reason why NO COUNTRY could not take up Lanka on her offer to be investigated.
I am the one who has gratitude… for my luck of just avoiding something pretty nasty. Pretty much all of Colombo has to be grateful they’re alive when we stepped out of the house not knowing if you’d make it back home. Or worse still, your family, friends. Sad part is it is not just me, there are 100s of people out there exactly like me in Sri Lanka who have found them selves in such extremely distressing situations, caught up with brutally wounded people. What’s even sadder is some people in SL forgetting the period of carnage we just went through. That’s what makes me really sad, people quickly forgetting how things were. The government should replay shocking videos of all the bomb incidents on a marathon session on state TV on a weekend and remind people honestly!
Did UN give a damn back then? Did photos, videos of us carrying bloody people in our hands warm the hearts of international community? Did they round up and prosecute LTTE supporters in their respective countries? Why are these war criminals allowed to roam freely in countries like US, UK, Australia and EU states?? In essence their citizens financially supported Sri Lankans to be murdered. Is that something a Western government accept? Why are these countries harboring these war criminals who funded money for children to be used as cannon fodder? Is that something a Western government would endorse their citizens to do? By allowing this, haven’t they shown their law enforcement systems are flawed/failed. It allowed a child in Sri Lanka to be brutally murdered. I don’t get it. Wasn’t prosecuting them the humanitarian thing to do? I’m glad at least the weapons procurers are finally being rounded up after intense lobbying.
Surrender those Tamil people who funded LTTE to the international human rights courts! Then talk! We need to hunt these people down where ever in the world they are. Humanity deserves justice! They have vast amounts of blood on their hands. We cannot give a free pass for contract killing. Yes I’m talking to you who protested for the LTTE and gave money! We cannot let you get away with such crimes against humanity. You are wanted war criminals to us. Help us get them and then the UN can even think about asking SL question about it’s war. Clean your self before trying to bathe us.
Hahaha Heshan, why are you conveniently quiet about this? Why the selectiveness?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article7088548.ece
You got something stuck on your keyboard?? When your fellow soldiers are not directly threatened, is it necessary to pump bullets into a van with kids inside? You’re not going to lose the war for sparing 2 kids and aborting engagement. Meh, they’re losing anyway… “Mission Accomplished!”. Mark my words, soon as Obama pulls out the troops, Iraq will become a breeding ground for terrorists and civil unrest will follow. This is one quagmire US will forever have to deal with.
Anyway why sin’t Alston jumping into get to the bottom of this shocking video?? Shooting at those kids is blatant extra judicial killing, especially since the pilot acknowledged their existence.
On the other hand, I consider the United Nations to be a failed organization.
Ahh I see…. Now you understand the double standards they play by then. They’re a spineless bunch who go after the weak poor countries just to earn their pay packet. UN will only succeed once big powerful nations start respecting it as well and set an example!! These so called leaders of humanitarian war mongers should do that before preaching to other countries. Open their abuses for international panels to be investigated. Hand over their rotten soldiers to the courts in Hague! Play fair I say.
It is not the UN and Alston which necessitate an investigation… it is the judgment of the three experts that CH4 is authentic, and the blatant refusal of GOSL to accept those findings.
Not just Gov SL, even ordinary folk like us who read the “expert” report and have a basic technical understanding can tell it’s bollocks. That’s why there were so many arguments for which you and others who think it’s genuine absolutely had nothing but hot air explanations!
Alston cannot call any experts because of conflict of interest in the first place. He made a judgement on the video even before commissioning “experts”. How does that work? Shouldn’t he bring the video out into the open after he got an expert opinion? Good work Alston you genius! How are we to know he didn’t do it just to cover his own ass in the face of mounting criticism of his hastiness and poor judgement? After all, he conveniently selected the experts! If UN still wants to go after this fake video, at least Alston needs to be removed from the case since he has compromised his status as an independent investigator in this matter. He’s shown completely the opposite by his actions.
You see, we’re not afraid to play by the rules. Only if they’re fair rules that apply to all! Otherwise we’d look like some silly suckers no!?
http://www.amnesty.org.au/hrs/comments/20595
Also read the attached related documents if you care and have time. So Heshan can’t spread his BS whitewashing!
Off the Cuff:
“Can you explain why the UN and her officials have one set of laws to the Lankan State and another for the Affluent West? ”
I don’t think the above is true. Who was it that funded the IDP camps? Who was it that blocked any UN resolution to conduct investigations into alleged war crimes in SL? The UN has been trying to establish an Office for Human Rights in Colombo for some quite time, but SL has consistently refused. On the other hand, the UN has never penalized SL… so now, let me ask you, if the intention of the UN is to punish SL, why has it not done so yet?
It is true that the West controls the UN, but that is a different issue not relevant to CH4.
“No EXPERT Connects the CH4 to SL.”
Three independent experts have verified that CH4 is authentic. When three independent world-renowned experts say the video is authentic, and the people in the video are speaking Sinhalese and wearing Sinhalese army uniforms, common sense would dictate that GOSL should carry out an investigation to clear its name. You seem to be avoiding the fact that GOSL has tried to rebuff the claims of Alston’s three experts…. this is very significant. While Alston’s experts did not specifically implicate the Sri Lankan military, the fact that the video is authentic by itself puts Sri Lanka in a very bad position. I am aware of your conspiracy theory, that the LTTE shipped out prisoners to TN to make the video and such, but both of us know that is a next-to-impossible scenario. The video was made in SL – you are the only one disputing that. The question now is exactly who in SL made the video.
“First produce the WITNESS who claims CH4 was shot in SL. Why is it taking so long?”
First open an investigation and offer protection to the witnesses. No one in SL is crazy enough to try to take on the military/defense ministry. Look what happened to SF when he implicated Gothabaya in the shooting of unarmed LTTE POWS.
“No they are not. They have the same common denominator “Human Rights”. ”
They are separate issues. In any event, I have already compiled an extensively long list of US Soldiers punished for various crimes and sent to jail. Your argument seems to be that since the US soldiers were not punished in every instance when a hysterical Iraqi made an accusation, then the system is a total failure. My argument is that the US justice system – whether civil or military – has worked in most instances, thereby negating any need for common regimes, and also negating any notion of double standards, etc. On the other hand, the justice system in SL is very poor indeed, as even the CJ Sarath Silva admitted when he left:
” `They (TAMIL IDPS) cannot expect justice from the law of the country. Their plight and suffering are not brought to the court of law in our country. I openly say this. I will be penalized for telling this , said Mr.Sarath Silva who is to retire from the post of Chief Justice at the end June when he reaches 60 years of age. ”
http://www.lankanewspapers.com/news/2009/6/44524_space.html
Now when a man who occupied the most powerful legal position the country says the law of his country is a failure, we don’t need Alston or anyone to remind us…
Observer:
Seems like you were caught up in quite a lot of suicide bombings. Besides the fact that you’re alive, I find it interesting that your timing coincided spectacularly with the one-time jaunts of the suicide bombers. Perhaps you were the “secret signal” to trigger the explosives. Something like this:
LTTE suicide bomber to high command: “Observer has left the house. I am heading for target. Repeat, heading for target… ”
“The government should replay shocking videos of all the bomb incidents on a marathon session on state TV on a weekend and remind people honestly! ”
The government is too busy robbing the people… when it needs a break from robbing, no doubt it will remind them. Haven’t you seen the “King” reminding people he liberated the country from terrorism. If they try to question him, he will liberate them as well, from their questioning…. non-stop process of liberation!
*Now when a man who occupied the most powerful legal position in the country
Heshan,
What has the obvious Double Standards in the cry for War Crimes and HR investigations got to do with the UN funding of the IDP camps? How can it disprove the blatant Double Standards of the UN officials? There is not a SINGLE Human Rights and War Crimes case that has been investigated International Panels where affluent countries are involved and the UN has not taken any steps either.
Rather than explain why the UN and her officials have one set of laws to the Lankan State and another for the Affluent West you are trying to side step it.
Why are you SILENT on the Lankan offer of investigations under a COMMON Investigative Regime where NO ONE and NO COUNTRY is EXEMPT.
What makes you and the West FEAR such a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD of Investigation? Obviously Lanka has no such fears.
“and the people in the video are speaking Sinhalese and wearing Sinhalese army uniforms, common sense would dictate….” Thats what you wrote.
You have finally admitted how weak your case is, in connecting the CH4 with Lanka.
You speak English. That does not make you an Englishman and it never will.
Dressing up as an Astronaut won’t make you an astronaut. That type if imitation is seen any day at a fancy dress party.
See the Fallacy of your logic?
Common Sense will dictate the total rejection of that argument.
Trained Tamils can speak Sinhalese Very Fluently.
You are very naive if you believe that Lankan Army uniforms were not available to the LTTE. Thousands of soldiers died INSIDE LTTE held territory. Thousands were captured alive by the LTTE. The LTTE had access to literally THOUSANDS OF SL Army Uniforms. How many SL Army uniforms did you see in the CH4?
What is REALY strange with the CH4 is the COMPLETE ABSENCE of a SINGLE TAMIL WORD spoken by the victims.
No Screams.
No Protests.
No Verbal Abuse aimed at the soldiers.
Absolutely no resistance.
They were blindfolded NOT GAGGED.
“First open an investigation and offer protection to the witnesses. No one in SL is crazy enough to try to take on the military/defense ministry. “ That’s what you wrote.
What protection are you talking about? He/She can get a passport within a day and claim refuge in ANY Western COUNTRY he/she wishes the following day.
The videographer is not known to anyone other than the killers. So far the killers have not disclosed his ID. He/she should fear the Killers not the SL Govt.
What prevents him from going abroad?
What prevents those connected to CH4 from getting him out of the country? Your argument is JUVENILE Heshan.
Just like the video was publicised get the guy out of SL and publish his interviews and establish a connection with SL
So far Lanka has not been connected to CH4.
Heshan, when satire and innuendo is your last line of defence, I know you have run out any arguments.. good bye for this thread.. haha
Observer:
The situation is pretty clear. The Sri Lankan Government will not even accept that the video is real. Admitting that the video is real is not an admission of guilt.
The Sri Lankan Government has a long history of abuses, similar to this.
I have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Sri Lankan Army can get away with stripping bodies:
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0ecW1Zt0qS01E/610x.jpg
You can come up with all sorts of excuses:
- US Soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan
- The tape could have been made anywhere
- The three experts were stooges of Alston
-Common regime
The problem is that CH4 still happened. That is the only thing that really matters, and the fact that GOSL cannot admit it happened. Alston did not ask foreigners to investigate CH4… he requested GOSL to carry out an investigation using Sri Lankan people on Sri Lankan soil. The fact that GOSL did not bother to carry out such an investigation indicates ulterior motives on the part of GOSL.
The problem is that CH4 still happened. That is the only thing that really matters,
No Sir, what matters is where and when and by whom ….. NO ONE has answered that, period.
Three world-renowned experts have established that CH4 happened. If anyone wants to argue with these experts, let them present their credentials first.
Case closed.
When and Where is the question
No one has Geographical proof. If they have, let’s see it first.
Now case is closed