Exceptional responses to questions from media
Repost This ArticleGroundviews was able to obtain an audio recording of an exchange between Swiss journalist Karin Wenger and a well-known, senior journalist now part of the Presidential Media Unit (PMU). Karin’s visa and media accreditation to cover the Sri Lankan presidential election was revoked after she asked several questions from government representatives at an official press briefing. As reported by Deutsche Welle,
“I asked two questions,” Wenger says. “Why were there so many troops in front of opposition candidate Fonseka’s hotel? And the second referred to rumours we kept hearing: Was it true that the president’s brother Basil Rajapaksa was inside the election commission’s office?” An official stopped her after the press conference and started shouting at her: “I won’t be subdued by a white skin! Keep this in mind!”
Emphasis ours.
As reported in Reporters Without Borders (RSF), Karin Wenger’s deportation order was rescinded by the government on 31 January, which perhaps as a face saving measure said the order was based on ‘false information’. We do not know what this ‘false information’ was, or why it was of so serious a nature as to suddenly revoke Karin’s visa just after her line of questioning.
Groundviews was told that Karin was subsequently invited to a meal at Temple Trees, the President’s official residence in Colombo. We do not know whether she actually accepted the invitation.
Sadly however, this inane verbal abuse by supine apparatchiks of the President signifies a churlish regime, unable and unwilling to grasp the importance of civil and progressive media relations, communications skills and soft diplomacy after the end of war. The resulting negative perception of Sri Lanka is not one that can be contained or addressed by offers of free meals at Temple Trees.
I am dumb founded!
who is [he]?
Which country is he working for…not mine!!
Hats off to the unknown Sri Lankan with a backbone! Well done Sir!
That’s Backbone? It was a press conference. At press conferences having backbone means answering hard questions, even the ones that annoy you. What I heard was a pompous bully. His manner suggests the kind of defensive, paranoid insecurity which unfortunately all too common these days.
These wild bores are from the southern jungle of Srilanka. He is not a media man , seems a stooge who think he is a hero when scold a foreigner
with filth. [Edited out]
Mahinda wasn’t subdued by ‘white skin’ even though a lot of ‘white skin countries’ were busy trying to interfere in SL affairs and stop the move against the LTTE. I say kudos to him.
I am 99% certain the [edited out] “Journalist working for Sri Lanka” is Lucien Rajakarunanayake.
Sending New year mesasges on the new year day as a part of apolitical propaganda by the government should be challanged in court,and the offernders should be brought before the lawsince it violates the privacy and rights customers by TRC.
Dhiraj:
Don’t be so sure. He just visited Russia. I didn’t know that the skins of Russians have suddenly turned black. A lot of help has come from Chinese. Unless you are blithely blind, as you seem to be, the Chinese skin is also white. Please don’t pick up a quarrel with them. May be you should go for some psychiatric treatment for your foot in your mouth.
Now let us talk some sense, although I know very well I am doing that with someone who does not even know the difference between black, brown or white. The reporter asked two questions. Let me ask these two questions:
1. Why were there so many troops in front of opposition candidate Fonseka’s hotel?
2. Was it true that the president’s brother Basil Rajapaksa was inside the election commission’s office?
If you don’t know the answer, just tell you don’t know, rather than beating around the bush. Beating around the bush could mean only one thing – to hide the truth.
Oh, by the way, I can help you build nationalsim. Chase away all the ambassadors, etc who are white, and withdraw all your ambassadors from the “white countries”. Perhaps, then you may deserve a pat on the back. I almost forgot something. Stop sending GL Peiris and the AG to beg for the GSP plus from the “white” EU.
//were busy trying to interfere in SL affairs and stop the move against the LTTE//
Yes. We must take revenge from the white skin countries. Forever and forever. Hahahaha! (evil laugh) First say no to GST plus. Then we get all of our brave leaders children back home from those countries. Let’s stop all the import to west. And the west will feel so sad; they will cut open their stomach and die in the Lipton circle. Hahahaha! (evil laugh)
No, he doesn’t work for the government–he works for the country, he says. Wonder who elected him?
why are you guys even writing in a “white skin” language??? Crazy idiots!
The rottweiler comes free when you elect its master!!
aiyo…..thanks to idiots like these our tourism will go down.
sack him immediately.
[Edited out] Why could not the guy on the audio tape be decent and express his views in a civilised manner ? My god, where have we been today? His voice is comparable to arabic speaking african. Anyway, I am speechless.
True, Swiss has rejected visa to particular journalists. Within Europe, swiss is a very conservative state. They only respect their values.
Groundviews ….can you authenticate this audio clip. You claim to state the man in the audio is attached to the PRU.
Truth will come out soon. They are going to submit the pettition as I heard it. I wish all gods could be on the side of right people to see the matter fairly so that many (almost of 50% of the nation) who never trusted on the results announced on the 27th feel finally SC was fair with the judgement.
Absolutely disgusting! Quite interested to know the identity of this uncouth cowardly individual. So one reader guesses it is Lucian Rajakarunayak, is it seconded by others who are familiar with the tone of his voice? What a messed up thought process that gives rise to such speech.
“I won’t be subdued by a white skin” What a stupid statement. Imagine if all the whites boycott Sri Lanka? Does this [edited out] think Sri Lanka can survive without them and prosper with India, Africa, Pakistan, Bangladesh and other small countries where dark skinned people live? Has he forgotten who helped us during Tsunami? Who are the majority of tourists that visit Sri Lanka and help our economy? What kind of future Sri Lankans will have with these [edited out] in power?
Western Media is hell bent on destroying the present President. They do not question the injustices and mass killings in Iraq and Afhanistan. They invaded soverign countries to take over their oil resources. Wahy worry about internal affairs in Srilanka?
Prof. Laksiri Fernando of the Colombo University said, the arrest of Sarath Fonseka on military grounds is not an isolated case. There have been several such experiences in the global sphere. Even in Sri Lanka in 1966, then Army Commander Richard Udugama was arrested and at that time no such unrest was instigated over the matter.
“Discipline is an essential component in the Army. So as the former Army Commander Fonseka should be aware more than anyone else that he should abide by the law. If he is found guilty of charges leveled against him then he should be dealt with in accordance with the law”.
“Now some are arguing that Sarath Fonseka cannot be tried under military law due to a six month term. But as for my knowledge for some charges the six month rule does not apply in military law”.
“I also think that the charge leveled against Fonseka that he was to betray the country over war crimes allegations is very serious. The media also reported that Sarath Fonseka sought advise from one of the JVP leaders when confronted with officials in the US while he was still serving in the military. This too if proven is a serious charge”.
“However, we cannot approve of protests which are conducted with the intention of exerting undue pressure on the judiciary”.
“As close observers of these developments for some time we see a hidden hand behind these moves which is trying to create unrest within the country. Some locals with vested interests, being backed by certain international players are behind these moves. This was evident both prior and in the aftermath of the polls,” Prof Fernando said.
Vice Chancellor of Uva-Wellassa University Dr. Chandra Embuldeniya said, If Fonseka had political ambitions, he should have forthwith resigned from his post in the Army. If he had engaged in politics while holding office it should be considered as a serious charge. In this instance we see that the Government had acted according to prevailing law.
Attorney Dr. Prathiba Mahanama Hewa of the Colombo University said, according to our Constitution a person could be arrested on grounds of reasonable doubts. If a person is wrongly charged then he can seek relief through relevant legal bodies.
“However, to arrive at pre-assumptions without examing the charges properly is wrong. In this country the rule of law is fair to everybody. If a section decides to agitate in front of the Supreme Court, I see it as challenging the Law. “As for the present attempt to create unrest in the country we see a hidden international hand behind the move which is working through it’s local agents. Though the LTTE has been defeated militarily, the diaspora which funded them is still active,” he said.
Dr. Rohana Lakshman Piyadasa of the Kelaniya University said, Certain elements are trying to create a public opinion with the use of false propaganda. We saw this trend before and after the elections as well as in the aftermath of the Fonseka arrest.
“This is only an illusion to mislead the people created with the help of a small section of the media, international and local elements”. “We cannot allow the people to be fooled by such illusions which has been created with the ulterior motive of driving the country towards anarchy,” he said.
Vice Chancellor of Sri Jayawardenepura University Dr. N.L.A. Karunarathne said, No one is above the law and if some one has done any wrong deeds, they should be dealt in accordance with the law.
“However, in the recent unrest in the country we see a conspiracy at work which has the backing of certain international elements”.
“Some western countries which depend on arms sales for economic gains are trying to create unrest in other countries. Some of them also cannot stomach the economic rise of certain Asian countries”.
In the late 1940′s Sri Lanka’s per- capita GDP was second to none in Asia. But this was brought down mainly due to political instability. We should regain our former status and go beyond. We should not be the stooges of anybody,” Dr. Karunaratne said.
Do be fair (no insult intended) to this guy, I think he said I will not be “sub hued” by white skin. I think he was trying to “blackball” the lady journalist from asking more questions!
Where have clowns like this been hiding all these years? Aney, apitath giya kala….
Well, that sort of anger is understandable. Look at her sense of arrogance and superiority. She believes that being able to come to Sri Lanka is a right or an entitlement, and asks why her friends did not get a visa. Would we get a visa to go and visit Switzerland whenever we want to? The woman must have come here holding a grudge because her friends weren’t allowed to accompany her.
Apparently at the media conference, she didn’t even follow the proper protocol. She interrupted the minister before the question time, and challenged him without even introducing herself. Where does this arrogance come from? The guy is correct in asking if it’s because of her white skin. Even her questions showed complete ignorance and bias.
I don’t know who that guy is, but I share his sentiments. We’re sick of this patronising attitude of ignorant foreign journalists and Ngots. I’m glad at least one Sri Lankan media-man had the guts to stand up to this idiot. Bravo!
All these University Dons will loose their jobs if they do not speak on behalf of the almighty [edited out]. They all know that for sure. [Edited out]
I am not pleased about western media at all. They just serve their masters in west whom are trying their best to topple MR government and tarnish Sri Lankan image. There is huge capmpaign going on in the west boycotting sri lankan products “Say No To Sri Lanka” This is a good lessons for foriegn journalists. Dont give step mother treatment to Sri Lanka, you will get it back from us.
The gent bit too harsh on her. Show bit of hospitality even to our enmies and dont shoot at people with white flags. All are not terrorists and terorist supporters.
Gent was right, before asking questions, a journalist who wants to ask questions has to introduce him/herslef in a media briefing. People like to know who is posing questions. Thats common sense. Western journalists forget even the common sense when they come to Sri Lanka.
Blair Blush, good points on SF inssue.
Blair Bush/Bardo Flanks:
Lucky that it was a foreign journalist who asked these questions. After all, you already know what would have happened to local journalists as amply noted even in recent weeks. One is still missing. If you two have even an ounce worth in you, I dare you to ask these questions. Perhaps, for your chivalry patronage you may just loose only your limbs, but at least may still have your lives clinging but incarcerated in the dungeons and may be just lucky enough if some “whites” make some noise for you, for you may well know then no one in SL will even dare to talk about or for you. Sleep well.
Jansee,
For the first time I’m learning that the Chinese are also considered “white skinned”. Then I wonder who was being called the “Yellow Peril”, and by whom? Have we, the humankind, discovered your planet yet?
@Jansee
Thank you for your response. If I were her, I would first learn the proper protocol to follow when asking a question from a minister of a government. I would understand that I need to show respect to the people involved, and that a white skin and a Swiss passport is not a “piss everyone off and get away with it” card.
It’s not just that this uncouth, rude hack of a journalist interrupted the minister impolitely. She repeatedly claimed that she had actually seen Basil going into the election commissioner’s office, presumably to threaten him! As if this parachuted implant knows who Basil is and what he looks like. It’s likely that someone had put up this idiot to ask these questions. She must have felt like a crusading hero in shining armour taking the evil third world government to task. Oh joy!
Imagine a Sri Lankan journalist doing to same to Hilary Clinton. This woman reminds me of those immature Scandinavian interns that they had working for the SLMM as their spokeswomen who would refer to the LTTE leader as Mr Prabhakaran and our president as merely Chandirika.
I have no issues with dissent from real Sri Lankans. I do not think that foreigners who do not live here, who are not affected by what happens to Sri Lanka, and who are informed by dubious sources, have the right to insult a representative of the Sri Lankan people in this manner. If she had waited until question time, informed the minister who she was, and phrased her question with tact and politeness, I wouldn’t have a problem. The most ironic thing is that the Sri Lankans who have now taken up her cause are those who called for, and succeeded in deporting Paul Harris. Remember him? He was kicked out for criticising the government’s peace process.
“White Skin”.. Yeh we all hate them don’t we. Well done to who ever had the balls tp say it to those ultra- europianize liberal media, who make a mockery out of our way of life.
Blair bush:
I have read your comments and a part of info are acceptable. Just becasue it came from Uni dons means not that everyone of us could agree with them. Even if computer expeert of Colombo Uni confirmed about the election results, I have still been waiting to hear whether his view in terms of finalisation of the results are accurate. So do the masses of the country until the court comes with their decision soon or later.
Here are few que I ve been seeking to know from you – dont you think if the law shold be applied to SF as lanken citizen, why not they take legal action against,
Mervin´s unbearable activities
Tsunami fund abuse (Transparency international and other bodies have confirmed about the abuse reported it repeatedly)
Well known political invovlement of his own son -Yoshita Rajapakshe while
being in the navy, he has conducted political camapaign to support MR.
SF is not just a lanken, who has sacrificed his life not once several times in the war. So he is nation´s hero still atleast to 60% of the nation.
If I may say so, if you search about every leader´s course of life, he or she may have engaged with politicians. So in this case, country´s legal system should go against all these people, not only SF. Is not that ?
And what do you think the manner he was arrested ? To my it was inhuman, since he is a person under medication according to facts, why was he treated in that way, by using abusing language by low level commanders, why was he assaulted? in front of his supporters inclucing Karu Jayasooriya. Even if they were all eye witnesses why does the GOSL repeat to the nation that it was a legal procedure ?
One theory being proffered for the appeasement of the Swiss lady, is the possibility of some investigative journalism being allowed by the Swiss government , into funds of Sri Lankan politicians stashed in Swiss secret bank accounts! It is time somebody did this to expose these scoundrels who take refuge in patritotism and xenophobic hubris, ably supported by the psycophants who frenzily feed off of what trickles down. This is the only instance where the development theory of the “trickle down” effect works!
@Simon
Asking any of us to explain the justifications the government has made regarding Fonseka’s arrest is quite silly. These justifications are false and everyone knows that except, it seems, you.
The reason Fonseka is a problem to the government because he was being used by certain foreign elements to initiate a regime change, Viktor Yushchenko style. He then challenged to testify before an international war crimes inquiry, thus betraying his owned armed forces and military command who had to do what had to be done to bring us peace. This was the immediate cause for his arrest, although I expected him to be assassinated.
Journalists are there to do a job–to get info. They don’t crusade for anything. If they want to crusade, they join NGOs or become politicians. Journalists who get posted outside their country are some of the best in their organization–that’s how overseas correspondents are selected. They are hardworking, tenacious, and responsible (i.e. accurate in their reporting). A journalist’s progress depends on his/her ability to break stories that others can’t. This woman had information that others didn’t. She was hot on the heels of a scoop. Nothing wrong with that–that’s what she’s paid to do. To say that she’s some evil white imperialist wanting to destroy the 3rd world is smoke and mirrors, conjured up to stop information gathering, and to contaminate whatever info does come out.
There’s no mystery behind this guy’s hysterical response–he was supposed to stop info like this from leaking out and he’s scared he’ll lose his cushy, parasitic job. Hence, the unspeakable anger and strong arm tactics. But some of us know professionalism when we hear it–Karin has it; the rottweiler doesn’t.
I wonder, are 3rd World journalists posted to 1st World countries all also Trojan horses, wanting to destroy the West?
WHY didn’t she give her name? Could it be something simple like a pattern of rejected visas for ‘troublesome’ journalists?
Why are we not looking at what the rottweiler said: that she asked the wrong “type of questions”. She is a journalist after all, not a PR consultant for Sri Lanka.
As for what would happen if a Sri Lankan journalist asked the ‘wrong’ type of questions of Hilary Clinton, the usual procedure in the civilized world is just to say “no comment”, not to send rottweilers to threaten the journalist.
When the journalist asks him who he is, he starts to say something, then swallows it back and says something else. Anyone know what he was about to say?
Imagine being told by a government official in the US or UK “I wont be subdued by a brown skin”. The man would be fired the very next day. In Sri Lanka the rottweiler probably just got promoted.
Lets get this clear. The reason why Sri Lankans are denied visas to Switzerland is because many of them tend not to return. The reason why Swiss journalists are denied visas to Sri Lanka is because they ask uncomfortable questions.
Everyone knew Fonseka’s hotel was surrounded. What was wrong in asking why? Everyone knew the elections commissioner was under some sort of pressure by the government. Why not tell us why? If they dont want to tell us they could have lied like they most competently do all the time or refused to answer. There was no reason for this cave man like outbusrt!
As they say.. Only in Sri Lanka. Wherever will it all end…?
regarding the presidential polls, there are lots of stories before and after the polls. but the paranoiac behavior of the ruling clan to eradicate everybody who dared to stand up against them is similar to the pattern that of Praba. He has ridiculously driven the plight of Tamils into a tragic past because his ego is such big that it could not resist vengeance. People in the south should be able to realize under what kind of undemocratic siege they are put to live under this regime. No journalist in SL ask uncomfortable questions without putting his life under mortal danger. The Govt. manipulate everything to save itself. A good example “The commonwealth assesment on the presidential election was “Overall polls not democratic ” but the Defense.lk published the same news as “Commonwealth happy about the conduct of Presidential polls” of course after cutting off the unhappy passages and messages. The same with the GSP+, the patriotic flame is kept burning by statements like “we don’t need it” from the central bank governor or “we challenge this decision” but in reality the begging and pleasing is practiced behind the screens. I have one question to the patriots of SL; if you find out your brother is a murderer or rapist would it be correct to keep your eyes and mouth shut or to let the justice prevail. Patriotism is not hiding the criminals but to fight for the (civil) rights of your landsmen.
@Zorro
You miss the point buddy. We don’t want anyone to dictate to us what we should or shouldn’t do. If you want that kind of democracy, Sri Lanka is not the place to be. 58% of the people have voted for stability, peace and prosperity, not the “democratic” right to dissent, protest, burn things, and cause anarchy. We don’t want that freedom.
“Was it true that the president’s brother Basil Rajapaksa was inside the election commission’s office?”
[Edited out] What did she expect? yes i was in there???
thats just plain slander.. when you ask stupid questions, expect to be treated like a child..
Belle,
“As for what would happen if a Sri Lankan journalist asked the ‘wrong’ type of questions of Hilary Clinton, the usual procedure in the civilized world is just to say “no comment”, not to send rottweilers to threaten the journalist.”
HAHAHA did u see her face? classic oh no he didn’t! you wanna know what my husband thinks.. ima tell u what my husband thinks.. lol i love that clip.. hillarious!
Observer,
“What did she expect? yes i was in there???
thats just plain slander.. when you ask stupid questions, expect to be treated like a child..”
No, she would expect him either to say “no comment” (which is an interesting response, usually read as the person hiding something) or to deny it outright (which would be even more interesting if she already had a source confirming he’d been there). But what she got was the unexpected best response–hysteria and strong-arm tactics, always an indication of guilt.
Observer,
There’s nothing wrong with Hilary Clinton’s response to that question–it was honest and above-board. As it turned out, it seems the question had been wrongly translated.
Sri Lanka is probably (I am using this word because I do not know for sure) second only to Japan in copying what West do.
Most of the US press conferences are predetermined. What I mean by this is that the reporters who can be present are “selected” and those who can ask questions are also “selected”. Most “premier” reporters are also restrained by their organizations as to what questions they can ask. A good documentary about press conferences and reporting is “control room”. (This was done by Al Jazeera news organization before it too became another mouthpiece of western propaganda for survival. Before this transition, the Al Jazeera website was constantly attacked and therefore they had to shut it down temporarily. )
Here is the description from the back of the DVD Control Room. “Control Room is a seminal documentary that explores how truth is gathered, presented, and ultimately created by those who deliver it”. You will also see how US war planes attacked the Al Jazeera Bagdad office and killed one of its reporters. This is a must see for all those who live inside a beautiful freedom bubble of self creation.
Contrary to some claims made by some writers here, western organizations DO NOT send their best reporters to a place like Sri Lanka. When the top reporters go outside their countries it is only because their President/Prime Minister is visiting another country, or because their country is waging a war with another country or there is a hugh disaster such as a magnitude 8 earth quake. Otherwise, they send their novices (I call them 4th grade reporters) to places like Sri Lanka. What happens is that the locals (Colombians) treat these people like kings and queens. This treatment make these people forget that they are 4th grade reporters. Therefore, they try to be more that what they are.
I remember reading an article by one of these “super” reporters about the lack of toilet paper in Jaffna. He was blaming army for the lack of toilet paper in bathrooms (toilets) in Jaffna. (I stayed in Hotels in Colombo and in the south with no toilet paper those days.) Anyone who lives in Sri Lanka should know that no one (are there any?) uses toilet paper in Sri Lanka.
Sony,
US war planes attacking Al Jazeera is not an example of media/press organizations having evil imperialist political intentions. The US war planes were not being run by media organizations were they? I was responding to people claiming that foreign journalists like Karin W are out to get Sri Lanka. Don’t confuse the two issues–the media is not and cannot act as a government (except perhaps in Sri Lanka where a government media spokesman claims that he works for .
Of course, any information presented has bias in its gathering, presentation. But that goes equally for governments. However, journalists don’t report on what has NOT happened, i.e. they don’t make up events. When they do, they are sacked. And there is always right of response–those who feel their presentations are biased can write in and have their say. Professional media organizations make it a point of principle to observe the right of response.
Governments, on the other hand, unlike media organizations, can make up as many stories as they want. They can claim that something happened or that something didn’t happen, and nobody can challenge them because they can and often do control access to information. Look at this rottweiler here, who works for the government and claims he works for the country and not the government, and uses threats to subdue a journalist. That is why journalists are important–to check the power of governments.
As for 4th-grade reporters being sent to countries like Sri Lanka, there is a pecking order in media organizations. You need to be a high-performing senior beat reporter before you can qualify to be sent out as a country or regional correspondent, because you not only have to do reporting but also run an office in a foreign country. You have too be especially exception in order to be posted to countries where there are conflict and instability—and Sri Lanka is still not in a peace situation. After years and years of being a correspondent, you then get to the higher echelons of a news organization, where you are then sent out on plum assignments like following your country’s prime minister abroad or covering international summits. In terms of ability, there is very little difference between the correspondent and the senior journalist–they are both the stars of their organization, the most irreplaceable of journalists.
You must really be kidding to think a news organization is going to send junior journalists out to cover news in Sri Lanka where they cannot be guided or supervised, where even their security is under threat.
What a laugh.
The guy says “the next thing you know, they will claim that my name is on a list…white vans…the whole bloody story…”
Her visa was withdrawn shortly afterwards.
Then someone realised that they needed to backpedal pretty fast so the order was rescinded.
Dear Belle
I do not wish to continue with not so sincere conversations. Please read the following article. (I found it by googling with a search quote “Rumsfeld agains al jazeera”).
http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/574/backlash_against_al_jazeera/
Like I said, Sri Lanka is perhaps only second to Japan in copying what West do.
Belle,
“You have too be especially exception in order to be posted to countries where there are conflict and instability”
Not true. Most Westerners have not even heard of Sri Lanka and are more interested in what’s going on in Iraq or Afghanistan. There is little risk in sending an incompetent journalist to Sri Lanka because it would be very difficult to refute bad reporting. These journalists also tend to get their stories from each other while lounging in Colombo, instead of going to the field (which wouldn’t help much, given their language limitations). That explains why the figure of “60,000 deaths” has often been reported by Western media for over the last 10 years of war, without being revised.
Dear Belle,
“However, journalists don’t report on what has NOT happened, i.e. they don’t make up events. When they do, they are sacked.” you wrote
Not true, they do make up stories.
Here is a good example
Slaughter in Sri Lanka
Evidence gathered by The Times has revealed that at least 20,000 Tamils were killed on the beach by shelling as the army closed in on the Tigers
Date lined May 29, 2009
No byline but the video carries a commentary by the Foreign Editor Richard Beeston
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article6382706.ece
Three pictures are used in their video presentation
1. a part of the NFZ
2. Picture of an LTTE grave yard (not from the NFZ)
3. another part of NFZ showing earth mounds (possibly graves)
This is a transcript of Foreign Editor Richard Beeston’s commentary
“In the first photograph you can see the remains of what was a refugee camp for some 100,000 Tamil civilians. In the center you can see the destroyed dwellings these wretched people were trying to live in. To the South out of the shot is the sea. Between them and the sea are Tamil Tiger gun emplacements you can see them they are mortar pits circular, bottom center, bottom right you can see what we believe is a command center, ammunition trucks, so effectively you had a population, the size of a large football stadium packed with civilians trapped here for weeks upon weeks under the merciless bombardment of the govt offensive”
Note – the mortar pits, command center and ammunition trucks are highlighted by graying out the background but they fail to highlight any ground impact bomb crater or any “Burnt Out Tree Stumps” that they claim were “one of the sights seen frequently in The Times photographs.” Very strangely this allegedly frequent sight, is no where to be seen in ANY of the three photos used by them (see story 1 para 19). In fact you can see that ALL vegetation is intact and still standing
Transcript continues…
“In the second picture we can see what looks like a strange crop in the center of the photograph these are in fact we believe Tamil tiger graves, hundreds of them neatly laid in the fields buried presumably near where they fell.
Note – This picture is not of a LTTE grave yard WITHIN the NFZ. It is an LTTE graveyard far removed from the NFZ. Observe the COMPLETE absence of any war damage. There are no bomb craters. Even the vegetation is intact, not a single bush, let alone a tree, shows signs of ANY damage. This UNRELATED photograph has been surreptitiously introduced to hoodwink the reader
Transcript continues…
(focus moves now to the third photo)
“In contrast to the Tamil Tiger dead, in this photograph is what we believe are the civilian mass graves down to the right these will be men women and children killed in the fighting and hurriedly buried by their relatives in between lulls in the onslaught”
End of transcript
Note the use of the words “In contrast to the Tamil Tiger dead” Mr Beeston is DELIBERATELY misleading the reader into believing that the LTTE buries their dead in “Lines and Columns” even during “weeks upon weeks under the merciless bombardment of the govt offensive” which forces civilians to bury their dead “in between lulls in the onslaught” haphazardly but allows the LTTE to bury their dead at leisure, in ordered rows and columns, completely unaffected by the same bombardment of the same area!!!!
There are some refferences in the above to two other stories carried by the Times on the same day. For those who are interested here is a link to what I wrote about all three stories in response to a Tamil using the name Mawatha Silva
http://www.groundviews.org/2009/09/28/doing-the-right-thing-freedom-for-vanni-idps/#comment-9618
Wijayapala,
“There is little risk in sending an incompetent journalist to Sri Lanka because it would be very difficult to refute bad reporting.”
You don’t know how the Sri Lankan government and diplomats deal with news organizations, do you? You cannot print something without having them breathe down your necks, and getting hysterical if it is even insignificantly negative. If a journalist writes something that can be refuted with contrary evidence, it will be refuted by the SL government. Even when there is no evidence, the SL government will still refute and cry foul. You can see in this instance how they work. What happens if a government spokesperson denies your story in public? The news organization ends up looking stupid, that’s what. This is why the 60,000 deaths figure has never been revised–because if you want to change it, the SL government will descend on you and demand evidence. Would you reveal your sources if your source’s life will consequently be threatened? Would you run the story if a government authority is going to deny it?
Any story can be contradicted by anyone who wishes to do so, and every time someone does so, suspicion is cast on the journalist, eroding his/her reputation with their organization. Journalists won’t take that chance of running stories unless they have impeccable sources or evidence. Editors too check sources because if anything goes wrong, their neck is also on the line. Yes, these journalists often do share stories–but these are just the ‘filler’ stories. If there are no scoops during the time of assessment, they won’t get their bonuses and promotion.
There’s a tendency to regard journalism as some easy type of job, like rumour-mongering or something. It isn’t. It’s damned hard work. What you call “lounging” is very often a journalist networking, building up their contacts, because 95% of their work turns on that. Do you mean that doctors and lawyers and other professionals don’t lounge?
Bardo Flanks,
it seems you are dead sure that the propagated 58% was correct? and the polls were democratic? No abuse of state media and the public resources, no kidnappings and no bullying of the voters, the justice and the forces were not politicized? no lies and no favoritism? Then this is the will of the majority and they deserve such government. Tell me your friends and I tell you who you are.
Off the Cuff,
So what is your explanation of why some graves are arranged symmetrically and some are not? Am I to suppose that you think trees weren’t destroyed in this war? If it is true as you say that the LTTE graveyard is outside the NFZ, hmmm, yes, it’s interesting that there’s no war damage in a firing zone. Could it be that the firing was happening in the no-firing zones instead? You may recall that Rajapaksa himself boasted to one journalist that they tricked the LTTE by luring them into the NFZs. Now what did they do with them there? Kiss and make up? How did they distinguish the Tigers from the civilians huddled in the NFZs?
As an ex-journalist and knowing how news organizations work, I believe the Times report. I believe the Times had many, many sources (including survivors of the war and UN sources) that gave them lots of information. Unable to cite their confidential sources, they tried to find in these three photos, evidence for information which they had gotten from non-photo sources. They probably also had lots of other photos too but could not use them because they did not have clearance to take them or to use them. If I remember correctly, these pictures were taken on a SL government-arranged air tour of UN officials and selected press.
In the final analysis, we can’t really know what happened in the war until the Tamil civilians are allowed to talk. So, for now, as far as I’m concerned, the SL government’s barring of press and aid organisations from these areas AFTER the war was over tells me only one thing: they had plenty to hide.
There is nothing strange about this article having no byline. It is an editorial–and editorials don’t carry bylines. Editorials are supposed to state the news organization’s standpoint, not that of an individual.
Sensationalism without proper facts to back up a story and journalism are 2 different things. In my eyes the former are mere novelists, not journalists. Of course naturally they get refuted easily. Their house of cards fall apart soon as evidence is required.
Jeremy Page is one of those novelists, with his new book out soon. My version of Sri Lanka! Inspired by scotch on the rocks.
Dear Belle.
So what is your explanation of why some graves are arranged symmetrically and some are not? Am I to suppose that you think trees weren’t destroyed in this war? If it is true as you say that the LTTE graveyard is outside the NFZ, hmmm, yes, it’s interesting that there’s no war damage in a firing zone. Could it be that the firing was happening in the no-firing zones instead? you wrote.
This IS the No fire Zone. At least that is what the Times claim it to be.
As you can see from the Pictures and the commentary the LTTE was BOMBARDING the SL Army from it.
The Times stories (not one but three on the same day) claimed that SL forces USED Air Burst and Ground Impact Mortars.
They claimed that a bombardment of such a nature creates INTENSE HEAT that is capable of BURNING LIVE TREES TO STUMPS.
Plastic tents ALL OF THEM UNBURNT lies strewn all over the site.
HOW DID THEY ESCAPE BURNING when the HEAT can incinerate LIVE TREES?
This is LIE number one and is FABRICATED.
As you have now probably realized, the interposed picture is of a peace time LTTE graveyard that was no where near the war zone (not ONE grave damaged, Not one Shrub damaged, Not one tree damaged & not a SINGLE bomb crater visible on the ground). Hence the grave diggers had all the time to symmetrically lay down graves which cannot be done while under an intense and merciless bombardment. Grave digging while under such an attack necessarily becomes asymmetric or random (unless the grave diggers were immune to the bombs).
This picture of the LTTE grave yard was used to INTENTIONALLY DECEIVE the reading public.
This is Lie number two and is BLATANT DECEPTION.
The pictures of the NFZ do not show a SINGLE Mortar Crater.
It does not show any damaged Trees
It does not show ANY Damaged Vegetation
Let alone Burnt trees “Damaged Trees, Damaged Vegetation and Mortar craters” should have been visible, if in fact, the SL Forces bombarded this Area as claimed by the Times.
Hence the Claim by the TIMES that this area came under INTENSE merciless bombardment for weeks upon weeks by the govt offensive is a Blatantly Exaggerated LIE calculated to deceive the Reader and create adverse Public Opinion (not a shred of evidence to support the claim of a HEAVY Bombardment is seen)
This is LIE number Three.
The asymmetric earth mounds could be graves and I believe that they are. The LTTE dead AND the civilian dead would both be buried in these graves.
The Times on the other hand want the reader to believe that the graves contain only the Civilian dead and says so in their commentary.
This is Lie number Four.
You wrote “Unable to cite their confidential sources, they tried to find in these three photos, evidence for information which they had gotten from non-photo sources.”
What you are really saying, in circuitous language, is the fact that, the TIMES MANUFACTURED a story around three photographs that did not have a SHRED of evidence to support what they said.
Your emphatic statement that “they don’t make up events. When they do, they are sacked.” stands Naked.
This is a Video Commentary supported by a written article and is the Lead Story.
All Journalists including the Foreign Editor Richard Beeston, who did the commentary, are still at work. No one got sacked for the fabrication
Off the Cuff,
No, I am not saying in circuitous language that The Times made up the story. I’m saying that they are interpreting the pictures and making sense of them from other information that they have been given by their sources, which probably include Tamil survivors and UN officials, or even information that they received during the war itself.
You are refuting their interpretation of the photos by using information from other news stories against these photos. So they said there were damaged trees,burnt out tree stumps and and that military used ground impact mortar and air burst in another story, etc. But they never claimed that these are shown in these three photos. I have no doubt that The Times does have other photos. Why they didn’t use them is a very interesting question. You would probably think they don’t have such photos. I would say that for some political reason, they had been barred from using them.
They don’t make up events. Obviously, there was a war. People died. There are graves. Unless you think The Times made up the entire Tamil-Sinhalese conflict. Who knows—maybe Prabhakaran was just a fiction of the Western media.
I suggest you try to read between the lines and open yourself to the buried subtext, instead of imposing a ready-made fixed narrative of Sinhalese government innocence and Western imperialism on everything you see and read. That’s really tiresome and futile.
An established newspaper will not refer to the “appalling evidence” of the war and that it has photographs offering evidence of a massacres of 20,000 if it did not have such evidence. Anybody, including governments, could sue them. Did the Sri Lanka government challenge them? I don’t remember them objecting. Again, if you know the SL government, that is very intriguing.
As I said, the article is an editorial. Another journalistic term for “editorial” is “leader”. Here, they’ve called it a “leading article”, and it is under “Comment” (not News). An editorial or leader is a comment (but it is the newspaper’s official comment). Check the other leading articles on the page–they too have no byline.
@Burning Issue
How would you see lingustic enrichment thrugh Tamil Assimilaton? Hasn’t that already happened? Don’t you know how the Tamil language enriched the Sinhala language?
Of course it has happened, and let’s continue to let it happen.
Please do not take the Tamils for fools; you will do this by force and not through consent; it is totally undemocratic and unjust. You are a glamorous Sinhala Buddhist Nationalist!
Force is not required. Most Tamils and Muslims outside the North speak Sinhala as a second or third language for practical reasons.
@Wijayapala
If there aren’t any racial differences, how can the Sinhalese and Tamils come from two different places?? Makes no sense!
Sinhalese have many ancestors, of which the main one are Tamils and Dravidians. Being more heterogenous than Tamils, we also have other ancestors.
Would you support race-mixing if the Sinhalese were the minority?
Probably not. However, there are no Sinhalese speakers outside Sri Lanka. Tamil is a language native to Tamil Nadu in India. Even if no one were to speak Tamil in Sri Lanka, the Tamil language and culture will flourish in its birthplace. Not so for Sinhalese.
Why? What is wrong with India or Tamil Nadu? How do you propose to physically bring SL closer to SE Asia?
It’s a matter of personal preference. I believe in closer commercial and cultural ties with SE Asia.
@ModVoice
How can it be possible to evenly distribute all ethnicities throughout the country when you have ethnic composition that is unequal
The ratios will be maintained everywhere.
I am not sure how it had helped the US, if you could further explain?
I was referring to busing programs, anti-segregation policies and that sort of thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desegregation_busing_in_the_United_States
Since you say many Sinhalese had Tamil ancestors, can we suggest you to revert back to your ancestral mother tongue?
75% of the people in this country speak Sinhalese as a first language. A further 10-15% speak it as a second or third language. It is also the only language and cultural identity that’s unique to this country. Surely it’s easier for everyone to learn the language of the majority instead of the other way around. The thing is, they are already doing that, and it’s a process Tamil nationalists cannot stop. So my idea is not what ought to be done, but an observation of what is already happening.
Federalism is good way to progress forward. It addresses many of the grievances they have. It had worked in India, Australia, US, and Canada then why not Sri Lanka?
As I’ve said above:
India is different. No ethnicity in India can claim to be the majority. Nevertheless, Hindi (along with English at upper levels) is the only working language in the central administration. Indian federalism is based on states that have been clearly demarcated and separately administrated for centuries. That’s not the case in Sri Lanka.
As for the other countries, Sri Lanka is incredibly small compared to them. We’re smaller than the size of a state in Australia, US or Canada. We have a Colombo-centric economy and society. None of these countries have devolved power along racial or ethnic lines, merely on a regional basis. Many countries are showing trends of centralisation, especially in Europe.
Dear Belle,
I never expected you to be so dishonest.
Your post of February 23, 2010 @ 7:12 pm is utterly Dishonest.
This is completely unworthy of you and was never expected.
All stories that I linked to USES THE THREE IDENTICAL PHOTOGRAPHS
So how can you, with any honesty, write something like this?
“You are refuting their interpretation of the photos by using information from other news stories against these photos. So they said there were damaged trees,burnt out tree stumps and and that military used ground impact mortar and air burst in another story, etc. But they never claimed that these are shown in these three photos.”
from your post of February 23, 2010 @ 7:12 pm
This an extract from Link 1, the story by Catherine Philp and Michael Evans. This story carries the SAME three photos.
“Charles Heyman, a former army officer and editor of the magazine Armed Forces of the UK, said. “It looks more likely that the firing position has been located by the Sri Lankan Army and it has then been targeted with air-burst and groundimpact mortars.”
What a Fraud you have turned out to be. As big a Fraud as the Times it seems.
I referenced the following post
http://www.groundviews.org/2009/09/28/doing-the-right-thing-freedom-for-vanni-idps/#comment-9618
And it has the following three links
1. Times photographs expose Sri Lanka’s lie on civilian deaths at beach
By Catherine Philp and Michael Evans datelined May 29, 2009
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6383477.ece
2. The hidden massacre: Sri Lanka’s final offensive against Tamil Tigers
By Catherine Philp in Colombo, date lined May 29, 2009
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6383449.ece
3. Slaughter in Sri Lanka
Evidence gathered by The Times has revealed that at least 20,000 Tamils were killed on the beach by shelling as the army closed in on the Tigers
Date lined May 29, 2009
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article6382706.ece
Off the Cuff,
Thanks for the other story links. Seems they suggest that my speculation was right after all. The three pictures were not ALL they had–they said they had “dozens” of photos. So why do they keep showing only these three? That is an interesting question. Did they only have permission to show these three? SL government organised the trip where these photos were taken. They could have demanded to approve the pictures before publication as a condition for allowing the Times on the trip. However, they cant stop the newspaper from talking about the other pictures.
The Times claims, as I speculated, could not have been based on these three photos alone. As these other articles state, they had looked at confidential UN confidential documents, had even acquired them, received summaries of UN documents, spoken to UN officials who kept saying that 20,000 was a conservative estimate, and received testimonies of survivors. Strange that you never mention these. Rather dishonest of you, I must say!
It is an amazing thing for a newspaper to claim that they had looked at leaked UN documents, even “acquired” some UN documents, and spoke to UN officials! Obviously, that would have been an embarassment for the UN if it was true. If it was false, the UN would have officially denied Times’ claims because they come out badly here–it looks as if the UN knew of the massacres and didn’t do anything about it. Did they ever deny The Times’ claim of having seen leaked documents? Are they taking The Times to court? They would if The Times had made false claims.
So, what we have–evidence from UN documents and from witnesses. And probably lots of pictures that they’re not allowed to show.
And I repeat–no where did they say that these specific three photos show burnt out tree stumps. The video commentary on the three photos makes no such claims. Elsewhere, they said Times pictures (in general) showed burnt out tree stumps.
News organisations are very careful with their words, because their words can be used against them in suits of slander, defamation, etc. Unfortunately, they have readers like you with deficient reading skills (who can’t read the lines, themselves, let alone read BETWEEN the lines). And typically, such readers have the cheek to accuse those who CAN READ of being dishonest!
Belle,
You can dance all you want and even peer into your crystal ball and try all you want to cover up your fraudulent attempts at white washing one of your favourite Pro LTTE tabloids in the UK.
But the pictures are there and the stories are there for anyone to see and judge for themselves.
In your previous post you claimed the pictures and the stories are unconnected. Now when you find that the same pictures are used in all three stories you change your tune.
Sri Lanka is not in the backwoods. She has the Infrastructure that can be used by anyone equipped with the technical know how to circumvent any attempt at Censorship of the Internet by using a simple VPN. Even a mobile phone would suffice to transmit a picture.
An Inmarsat Bgan terminal is just 8 x 6 inches and weighs less than 1Kg. This is the type of Satellite terminals that is used by Journalist for totally independent voice and Internet. Sending a digital picture anywhere is peanuts if you have the technical know how. This is the 21 st century so don’t try to pull the Censorship bluff.
So the London Times will only publish what is permitted by the SL Govt, ha ha probably your Singapore Colleagues will fall for that one.
Journalists don’t wait for permission to publish a picture of public interest. If they have pictures of War Crimes they definitely wont wait for anybodies permission. Don’t take the GV Readership to be idiots.
You thank me for the Links now but they were given to you with my very first post about the Times’ fabricated stories. It was given when you claimed that Professional Journalists don’t fabricate stories and that if they do they get the sack. This just goes to prove that you never checked those other stories before you decided to put your foot in the mouth. With you self proclaimed reading skill of invisible lines its not a small wonder that you can put your foot in the mouth too.
You LIED and now you are compounding that Lie with your song and dance.
Bardo Flanks,
Thank you for responding.
“Tamil is a language native to Tamil Nadu in India. Even if no one were to speak Tamil in Sri Lanka, the Tamil language and culture will flourish in its birthplace.”
There are many SL Tamils who would not equate their language to that spoken in Tamil Nadu. I know firsthand that SL Tamils cannot understand what is spoken in Madras and vice versa.
SL Tamil branched off its Indian counterpart about 700-800 years ago and evolved in relative isolation. It has retained certain features of medieval Tamil that modern Indian Tamil has not (while losing a few other features that Indian Tamil retained), and it has also developed new aspects.
Therefore the SL Tamils probably would not be so eager for their language to disappear.
“It’s a matter of personal preference. I believe in closer commercial and cultural ties with SE Asia.”
Kindly explain this personal preference. Other than Theravada Buddhism, I fail to see the cultural ties. And Theravada Buddhism did not prevent the Thais from supporting the LTTE.
The Rajapakse apologists truly redefine the word “imbecile.”
Off the Cuff,
“An Inmarsat Bgan terminal is just 8 x 6 inches and weighs less than 1Kg. This is the type of Satellite terminals that is used by Journalist for totally independent voice and Internet. Sending a digital picture anywhere is peanuts if you have the technical know how. This is the 21 st century so don’t try to pull the Censorship bluff.
So the London Times will only publish what is permitted by the SL Govt, ha ha probably your Singapore Colleagues will fall for that one.”
Journalists always have to make deals in order to get difficult stories, and they honour their promises. How were the Times journalists going to fly low over SL air space to take the pix without government permission? If The Times promised that SL could limit the photos they publish in return for accompanying Ban Ki Moon on the trip, they would have to keep their end of the bargain.
“Journalists don’t wait for permission to publish a picture of public interest. If they have pictures of War Crimes they definitely wont wait for anybodies permission. Don’t take the GV Readership to be idiots.”
The war was over. How were they going to get pictures of war crimes being committed? If there were pictures to be taken of war crimes, the SL government wouldn’t have hosted Ban on a look-see trip.
But why do you keep focusing on the pictures? It wasn’t the photos that made The Times claim that 20,000 were massacred—it was UN documents, UN information, witnesses. Why doesn’t The Times give details of the UN documents that they say they acquired? If there is evidence of war crimes, why didn’t the press release the documents? I would suggest it’s censorship, inability to publish illegally gotten documents–the kind of censorship you say doesn’t happen in journalism. Journalists too are bound by laws–those of other nations and of their own.
“You thank me for the Links now but they were given to you with my very first post about the Times’ fabricated stories. It was given when you claimed that Professional Journalists don’t fabricate stories and that if they do they get the sack. This just goes to prove that you never checked those other stories before you decided to put your foot in the mouth. With you self proclaimed reading skill of invisible lines its not a small wonder that you can put your foot in the mouth too.”
Off the Cuff, I am sure that you think you are a very important person and that your views are brilliant. But when you give a link to another comment by yourself in another thread, I don’t rush to read it. The drivel you write in just one thread is more than enough nausea for me. However, when you gave direct links to stories by The Times, I did read those.
Nevertheless, I am still correct in saying that you linked the information in the news stories to the three photographs. That’s your problem—nothing wrong with the Times’ photos. That just goes to show how redundant your commentary is. Even without reading what you had said in that other post, I could guess the mistakes you made. Time to sing another song, Off the Cuff. You sound like a broken record.
Belle,
“But why do you keep focusing on the pictures?” You ask
This is why
1. Three pictures are used. Two of them from the same NFZ in the combat zone. The third from a none combat zone without ever mentioning that fact.
2. The none combat zone pix is compared to the combat zone pix in an unscrupulous attempt at deceiving the reader into believing that the combat zone graves are exclusively of civilians, women and children (no LTTE combat dead are buried in them).
3. The pix show no evidence of shelling by the SL Forces (not a single shell crater visible) but there is evidence that the LTTE shelled the SL Forces from the NFZ.
4. Though they claim that the majority of pictures in their possession show Burnt Stumps of Trees not ONE SINGLE burnt stump is visible in any of their pics.
5. Though they claim that the type of shelling used by the SL Forces can incinerate “Live Trees” the SFZ is littered with pieces from plastic tents and NOT ONE OF THEM IS BURNT.
The UN estimate is 7000 dead. The Times INFLATES it to 20,000 dead. The Random Graves seen in the NFZ is used to give credence to the inflated figures. The commentary and the stories are written to buttress this inflated figure.
All UN figures are reported by local Tamils in the UN’s employ. All of these locals have to obey the LTTE dictates or face death. The LTTE always inflated civilian figures in order to obtain larger supplies of food and medicine from Govt. Inflating casualty and death figures of civilians is of immense propaganda value for them.
You try to drown the truth by using semantic attacks instead of using a factual argument.
You started lying and have got your knickers in a twist.
Bardo,
“I was referring to busing programs, anti-segregation policies and that sort of thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desegregation_busing_in_the_United_States”
The anti-segregation policy applied to public schooling. I don’t know how that can be qualified as demographic change in the sense that you want to apply to Sri Lanka. How successful were these anti-segregation policies anyway? The site you provided mentions its failures. FYI-you can still find Black people living in enclaves in the US.
“Surely it’s easier for everyone to learn the language of the majority instead of the other way around. The thing is, they are already doing that, and it’s a process Tamil nationalists cannot stop. So my idea is not what ought to be done, but an observation of what is already happening.”
Sinhalese are the majority in Sri Lanka, however, they are a minority in the Indian subcontinent region compared to the Tamils. If I apply your logic, Sinhalese should be learning Tamil and not vice versa. You have observed for the past 2000 years, did the Tamil language vanguish off Ceylon?
“As for the other countries, Sri Lanka is incredibly small compared to them. We’re smaller than the size of a state in Australia, US or Canada. We have a Colombo-centric economy and society.”
The size of the country does not matter but what the people want. World’s smallest country, Vatican City, is only a fraction of Sri Lanka.
“None of these countries have devolved power along racial or ethnic lines, merely on a regional basis.”
Canada – Quebec for example.
Off the Cuff,
“All UN figures are reported by local Tamils in the UN’s employ. All of these locals have to obey the LTTE dictates or face death. The LTTE always inflated civilian figures in order to obtain larger supplies of food and medicine from Govt. Inflating casualty and death figures of civilians is of immense propaganda value for them.”
The Times reports were filed after the war ended, and the LTTE was dead by then. Sorry, you can’t use LTTE anymore to cover up information not to your liking? How do you know that civilian figures were inflated? Were you there counting the dead?
“You try to drown the truth by using semantic attacks instead of using a factual argument.”
All argument is semantic—because all argument is based on language. Your argument is not only NOT “factual”, it is not even an argument–in an argument people respond to what the other party says. You just keep repeating your claims ad nauseum.
Belle,
“The Times reports were filed after the war ended, and the LTTE was dead by then.”
Yes the LTTE leaders were dead but the figures used originated when they were living. Hence your argument leaks like a sieve.
“How do you know that civilian figures were inflated? Were you there counting the dead? “ you wrote.
How do you know that they are NOT inflated? were you there counting the dead?
The UN figures were 7000. The Times figure is over 20,000. That looks to me like INFLATION. What does it look to you as?
” Your argument is not only NOT “factual”, it is not even an argument
–in an argument people respond to what the other party says.”
The Three stories carry the same three pictures. Hence the content of the stories applies to all three pictures.
You have been trying to deny that the Pictures have no relevance to the stories by projecting yourself as a person with intimate knowledge of a Newspaper. You seem to think that only you have experience in working for a Newspaper organization so any BS you say about a Newspaper is to be taken as Gospel. This is the ONLY basis on which you have been refuting what I stated with reference to the Pics and the content of the stories.
You have no answer to the introduction of a non war zone LTTE grave yard picture amongst the NFZ war zone pics and using it for comparison with the War Zone.
You have no answer to the absence of Shell damage in the NFZ War Zone pics.
You have no answer to the absence of Burn Damage in any of the three pics in spite of the Times claim that the SL Army used a type of bombing that creates INTENSE heat capable of burning live trees to stumps but could not incinerate Plastic and Paper, seen strewn all over the NFZ in the TWO War Zone pics published.
You cannot explain ANY of the above with reference to the three stories and the Three pics published by the Times. Hence you come out with some GARBAGE about the Times having pics that they did not publish.
“You just keep repeating your claims ad nauseum.”
Sorry to disappoint you. What was repeated are the questions you failed to FACTUALLY answer with reference to the PUBLISHED stories and the PUBLISHED Pics.
Hence instead of HIDING behind UNPUBLISHED pics that “NO ONE HAS SEEN”, bring forth your counter arguments using the material the TIMES had PUBLISHED .
You got your knickers in a twist and hence want to avoid the material published by the Times.
Off the Cuff,
“Yes the LTTE leaders were dead but the figures used originated when they were living. Hence your argument leaks like a sieve.”
No, it doesn’t. Unless you go on the assumption that as long as the witnesses are Tamil, then the info is unreliable. And that effectively means that only Sinhalese claims will be treated as truth, right? You may find that rational–I don’t. It’s simple PREJUDICE.
“How do you know that they are NOT inflated? were you there counting the dead?
The UN figures were 7000. The Times figure is over 20,000. That looks to me like INFLATION. What does it look to you as?”
Gordon Weiss estimated it at between 30 to 40 thousand. So the Times figure doesn’t look inflated. The UN has never categorically denied Weiss’ claim–forced to comment on his statement, it simply said that it was his personal view, and added that “The UN repeatedly and publicly said there were unacceptably high civilian casualties from the fighting in the last months of the war…”.
I was not there counting the dead. I just use common sense as well as my life experience both as a journalist and as a person from the Tamil diaspora who has been receiving reports of what has been happening in the north for the past 30 years, to form my opinion. That’s a whole lot better than someone else who relies on government propaganda and prejudice to arrive at their conclusions.
I have given you counter arguments. They are based on my knowledge that no newspaper with a reputation like The Times has will tell lies and risk the public trust that has been built up over several generations–and especially not when several governments (including SL) and international bodies are watching, with the capacity to disprove their claims. The 20K is an estimate, and I don’t take it as an absolute truth that that number was killed. But what I do know for certain–The Times has lots of background information that allowed it to arrive at such a conclusion and to publicly proclaim it.
The Times even claimed in a follow-up story that Ban Ki Moon himself had been given that 20K figure by his own officials before he went to Sri Lanka. Now THAT is a bold thing to say if it is not true. This tarnishes his reputation as UN Sec-Gen: it suggests that he is keeping a massacre a secret from the world. Yet, Ban isn’t suing The Times. Now, why do you think that is?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6391265.ece
By the way, even the French newspaper Le Monde floated the same 20K figure, on the same day, 29 May 2009. How did two separate, highly regarded newspapers arrive at the same figure on the same day (i.e. one didn’t copy from the other)?
You want me to look at a picture that YOU SAY is a no war zone. How does one decide what is a war zone and what isn’t if the government in question has been accused of firing into no-war zones? Wouldn’t war zones and no-war zones look alike then?
“Hence instead of HIDING behind UNPUBLISHED pics that “NO ONE HAS SEEN”, bring forth your counter arguments using the material the TIMES had PUBLISHED .”
But you believe utterly in government declarations of innocence even though ABSOLUTELY NO ONE HAS SEEN ANY EVIDENCE of this innocence. So a different standard of truth for you, a more wishy-washy standard for yourself, and a more rigorous one for others?
The Times may not have published more than three pictures, but IT SAID it had DOZENS of pictures. The SL government could have demanded to see these pictures, to verify that they existed. Strange that they didn’t do so, eh? And why didn’t they challenge The Times to publish pictures that show trees burnt to stumps? Surely if there were no such burnt tree stumps, the SL government would know (they arranged the flight for Ban, and accompanied him on it, during which these pictures were taken). By demanding to see these burnt out tree stump pictures, they could have embarrassed The Times. Obviously, they knew there were such pix, and would only end up embarrassing themselves.
Strange too that the SL government didn’t invite everyone over to SL to verify that The Times’ claim wasn’t true. That too tells me something. Innocent people are only ever too ready to PROVE their innocence. It is the guilty who simply deny that they did something, and then leave it to that—or, better still, accuse the other party of lying (the more shamelessly guilty tend to do that).
Where are the witnesses of the war? Why are they not talking? My common sense tells me that they are afraid of talking. And since the LTTE is dead, they must be afraid of the other party in the war, right, the government? What is there to fear?
Yours is a full-time job protecting government propaganda, isn’t it? I admire the way you rush in immediately to the rescue whenever and wherever anyone doubts government propaganda—to pitch your load of nonsense. The only person you fool is yourself.
Belle, Off the Cuff, et al:
“The 20K is an estimate”
The 20K is actually an underestimate. Just like the figure of 60K killed during JVP times is also an underestimate. We will never know the total number of bodies dumped in lavatory pits and wells, rivers and ocean streams, left rotting in forest preserves, buried under houses or in shallow graves, etc. In any event, the 20K figure should be considered as erring on the safe side.
Dear Belle,
“Unless you go on the assumption that as long as the witnesses are Tamil, then the info is unreliable. And that effectively means that only Sinhalese claims will be treated as truth, right?” you wrote.
Wrong madam, that is a RACIST view. The data is UNRELIABLE because the people who reported it were under Death Threat by the LTTE. Not because of their ethnicity.
Every person, while under the influence of the LTTE irrespective of ethnicity was not free to act according to her/his conscience. Believing that they were is delusional. The assassination of Ms Rajani Thiranagama, a Tamil University Academic and a former LTTE er by the LTTE for daring to criticize it, is a prime example.
In fact even those Tamils living in non LTTE areas could not report anything critical of the LTTE. Assassinations of democratic TAMIL political leaders such as the founder of TULF, Mr. A. Amirthalingam (LTTE Mentor) and the world renowned constitutional expert and TULF parliamentarian Dr. Neelan Tiruchelavam are just two in a long list of TAMILS Murdered by the LTTE. There are many TAMIL Ministers in the Govt who were assassinated despite the security cover they had.
What proof do you have that proves those Local Tamils who worked for the UN within LTTE held areas enjoyed the freedom to report the truth? Even the UN was helpless in protecting children of their Tamil Employees from abduction.
When the Data is UNRELIABLE an argument based on that Data cannot be anything but UNRELIABLE.
You tend to throw the racial card when faced with the unpalatable truth.
“Gordon Weiss estimated it at between 30 to 40 thousand.”
Wrong again. His estimate is 10 to 40 thousand. If he was confident of his estimate why did he have a 400% higher upper limit? This means he is in doubt and that the figure could be closer to 10,000 than the exaggerated upper limit he used to create an impression.
The UN has never categorically denied Weiss’ claim–forced to comment on his statement, it simply said that it was his personal view, and added that “The UN repeatedly and publicly said there were unacceptably high civilian casualties from the fighting in the last months of the war…”
UN Sacked Weiss for his lies. The UN figure is 7,000. Weiss thought it wise to stay close to that but he lost out and lost his job.
The death of innocent people is unacceptable at any time, not just during war. Is there an acceptable level? If so what is that level?
“I was not there counting the dead. I just use common sense as well as my life experience both as a journalist and as a person from the Tamil diaspora who has been receiving reports of what has been happening in the north for the past 30 years, to form my opinion.”
I knew that you were not there but you asked me whether I was there and that was a silly question which could easily apply to you too.
I do not know about the common sense part but about you being a journalist and assuming the other person is not a journalist is presumptuous to say the least. You are making excuses and avoiding what the Times reported and the contradictions seen in the three photographs used.
Your counter arguments avoid discussing the specific points that I have raised. You try to counter them by creating an “aura around yourself” of a person with “SUPERIOR” knowledge, of the internal workings of the Times.
The Tamil Bias of the Times of London is very visible when a person reads through the comments section which is inundated with comments from Tamils and Tamils posing as Sinhalese, Chinese etc. The preponderance of comments with a Tamil bent is not due to the Sinhalese abstaining from writing, as I have found out from personal experience.
You also claim that you received reports from the LTTE area for the last 30 years. Reading through some Tamil comments and certain section of the media I got the impression that there was a TOTAL news blackout enforced by the Govt. Apparently there was no such thing, going by what you say.
Funny that you did not hear of the LTTE atrocities perpetrated on the Tamil population under them. The exorbitant taxes imposed the pilfering of govt and WFP food aid and medicines. The torture chambers, the Amputations etc. It’s easy to try to discredit dissenting opinions of others as due to Govt propaganda, when in reality you are the one with the Racist Bias as seen from your statement reproduced at the beginning of this post.
“I have given you counter arguments. They are based on my knowledge that no newspaper with a reputation like The Times has will tell lies and risk the public trust that has been built up over several generations–and especially not when several governments (including SL) and international bodies are watching, with the capacity to disprove their claims.”
No you haven’t given ANY counter arguments based on FACTS. You have been unable to Counter ANY of the INCONSISTENCIES of the three Times stories in relation to the published pictures. You are instead trying to divert attention from those inconsistencies by talking about the purported “REPUTATION” of the Times and your purported superior knowledge of the media.
These three stories and the three pictures were not written targeting high flying journalists with “Superior” knowledge. They were written targeting the general populace. Who unlike you, do not have an in depth knowledge of the Times.
Now lets see your common sense defending the Times using the published material.
Please note that I am relying ONLY on the material published by the TIMES and not on what anyone else says. Let’s see you do the same.
The first picture is described as the No Fire Zone (NFZ). The second is described as a LTTE grave yard (where the LTTE dead were buried near where they fell) arranged in neat rows and columns. The third is also described as the NFZ where haphazard earth mounds are supposed to contain ONLY civilian dead (no LTTE dead) buried in between “Lulls” in the bombing. These are the graves used to justify the inflated civilian death figure.
The first question that comes to mind is how the LTTE could bury their dead in neat rows and columns as the video commentary tries to project while being subjected to the same bombardment that prevented the civilians from organising an orderly grave yard?
The second question is how the LTTE grave yard remained COMPLETELY undamaged in the face of an INTENSE and merciless bombardment from Ground Burst and Air Burst shells?
The COMPLETE absence of any bomb damage of the LTTE graveyard indicates that it is nowhere near the war zone. This picture was clandestinely introduced on the unsuspecting reader sandwiched between two NFZ pictures. The objective was to compare the orderly graves to the disorderly ones in the NFZ and make the reader believe that the disorderly graves held only civilians (women and children). A very cunning ploy indeed.
The Times claims that Ground Burst and Air Burst shell combination creates intense heat capable of INCINERATING live trees to stumps.
No evidence of this is seen in ANY of the published pictures. Then the obvious conclusion must be that the areas shown in the pictures were not subjected to such bombardment and the Times LIED.
The Times Highlights relevant areas to which it wants to direct the reader’s attention by graying out the back ground. It has not drawn such attention to a SINGLE bomb crater in the NFZ although it has done so for LTTE gun emplacements, Ammo trucks and Command centers. The ONLY reason that it did not do so is because it could not find any.
The NFZ shown in the Times Pics is strewn with pieces of paper and plastic. These should have got incinerated in the Intense heat if there was any bombing as the Times claimed.
Again the Times Lied about the intense bombing. There was no bombing at all from the SL Forces of the portion of the NFZ shown in the Times photograph.
On the contrary the Times Photographs prove beyond doubt that the LTTE was Bombing the SL Forces From the NFZ hiding behind Civilians.
“Yours is a full-time job protecting government propaganda, isn’t it? I admire the way you rush in immediately to the rescue whenever and wherever anyone doubts government propaganda—to pitch your load of nonsense. The only person you fool is yourself.”
Wrong again. I write to prevent war mongers and Tamil separatist Nationalists like you, spreading hatred and scuttling the best chance we in Sri Lanka have for Reconciliation.
You say I write is nonsense. I challenge you to prove it by refuting the points that I have raised about the three photographs and the three stories published by the Times by using ONLY what the Times published as I have done, without reverting to your imagination.
Heshan,
What would be the estimate of innocent civilians killed (men women and children) in the sustained cruise missile attacks, Aerial bombardments and missile attacks and attacks by ground forces, denial of water, power and even access to Hospitals during the invasion of Iraq by the US led allied forces and the preceding sanctions?
Some say the estimates exceed six figures, is it true?
Do you subscribe to Ms Fullbright’s views of those deaths?
Off the Cuff,
You really have chutzpah, trying to turn your racism into that of others. So nobody is capable of telling the truth when they’re based in LTTE-controlled areas? Rajani Thiranagama and her colleagues managed to get the truth out in Broken Palmyrah, didn’t they, despite fear of assassination? Are you saying their information is unreliable? What about the University Teachers for Human Rights (Jaffna) people: were they blowing smoke too out of fear of LTTE? What’s more, you say that even Tamils living outside LTTE areas can’t speak the truth for fear of assassination. So, if I may summarise what you’re saying, whether you’re a Tamil in LTTE area or outside it, or even if you’re a Tamil employed by UN, you lack the capacity to speak the truth? And that’s not an attempt to undermine the truth value of any Tamil who does talk? That’s not racist?
Let me ask you, borrowing your own racist woolly-headed thinking cap for a minute, how come people ran for political office at all in Sri Lanka these past 30 years, knowing that there was a chance of being assassinated by the LTTE? Didn’t the fear stop them (just like, apparently, the fear of the LTTE stopped Tamils from speaking the truth)?
Your reasoning doesn’t hold. There are many people who braved death threats to tell the truth. That includes Tamils as well as Sinhalese. And there are many Tamils too who have been travelling out of the North for the past 30 years (people like domestic maids, for eg, and refugees) and they have been telling the truth of what has been happening there for the past 30 years.
What is your excuse now for not believing Tamil accounts of the war, now that the LTTE is dead? No, don’t tell me–they will spread lies about the government in order to get their Tamil Eelam!
“I do not know about the common sense part but about you being a journalist and assuming the other person is not a journalist is presumptuous to say the least.”
It’s not presumption to assume that a person isn’t a journalist if they didn’t even realise that a leader or leading article is a commentary piece by a news organization! And someone who actually denies that news organizations make deals to get info obviously isn’t a journalist.
“The first question that comes to mind is how the LTTE could bury their dead in neat rows and columns as the video commentary tries to project while being subjected to the same bombardment that prevented the civilians from organising an orderly grave yard?”
Why do you assume they were subjected to the same bombardment? Maybe the SL army was focussed on bombarding civilians? And how do you know that this grave site hadn’t been worked on much earlier in the war (when things were less intense), and that nothing much happened at that site after that?
“Again the Times Lied about the intense bombing. There was no bombing at all from the SL Forces of the portion of the NFZ shown in the Times photograph.”
The Times never claimed that that photograph showed intense bombing. So there is no lying here.
“The second question is how the LTTE grave yard remained COMPLETELY undamaged in the face of an INTENSE and merciless bombardment from Ground Burst and Air Burst shells? ”
You mean your SL army is dumb enough to bombard an area that consists only of graves? You assume that the area was bombarded. Why? Because The Times said there was merciless bombardment, so you assume that every picture they show is of areas that were bombarded?
“The Times claims that Ground Burst and Air Burst shell combination creates intense heat capable of INCINERATING live trees to stumps.
No evidence of this is seen in ANY of the published pictures. Then the obvious conclusion must be that the areas shown in the pictures were not subjected to such bombardment and the Times LIED.”
No, that’s not the obvious nor only conclusion. That only three pictures were published, when The Times says they had dozens (a claim which the SL government has not challenged, and which I thus assume to be true–also because you don’t just take three pictures when going on a government-organized mission) is remarkable. Surely The Times would like to show more pictures. That makes me suspect censorship, and a deal with the SL government that forbade them from doing so. I have no doubt–going by my experience as a journalist, who has also had dealings with SL diplomatic staff, that the government only approved those three pictures for publication as a condition for being allowed to accompany Ban on the trip.
“The Times Highlights relevant areas to which it wants to direct the reader’s attention by graying out the back ground. It has not drawn such attention to a SINGLE bomb crater in the NFZ although it has done so for LTTE gun emplacements, Ammo trucks and Command centers. The ONLY reason that it did not do so is because it could not find any.”
No, another reason is that it was not allowed, by a pre-arranged deal, to take or to show the pictures with the bomb craters.
“On the contrary the Times Photographs prove beyond doubt that the LTTE was Bombing the SL Forces From the NFZ hiding behind Civilians.”
If that is true, you need to ask what your government was thinking in approaching the NFZ where civilians were taking refuge. They were just collateral damage? You cannot incriminate the LTTE here without also incriminating the government and army. It is a government’s and national army’s job to PROTECT ALL ITS CITIZENS. Terrorists like the LTTE, on the other hand, have no such responsibility–they’re terrorists.
“These three stories and the three pictures were not written targeting high flying journalists with “Superior” knowledge. They were written targeting the general populace. Who unlike you, do not have an in depth knowledge of the Times.”
Just because you are unable to use common sense in reading between the lines of press reports doesn’t mean that other ordinary readers can’t do so. The UK has a very long history of journalism. Its readership are sophisticated readers because of that history. Also, stories with such severe political implications are not only targetted at the lay person, but at governments. These Times stories were directed at the UN and the SL government.
“I challenge you to prove it by refuting the points that I have raised about the three photographs and the three stories published by the Times by using ONLY what the Times published as I have done, without reverting to your imagination”
Obviously, you come from an outdated school of reading. Critical reading today demands that you take into consideration the context of a text, the time and circumstances it was written within, the socio-political and material forces in operation around the writing as well as the responses to the text. It is highly relevant that the SL government did not choose to sue The Times if indeed they had made blatantly false claims. It is also very revealing that Ban Ki Moon never denied that he had been given the 20K figure. Given your complete lack of imagination (as evidenced by your obsessive and repetitive circling around these photos, your inability to engage your mind in the larger picture), I’m not surprised that you would consider such strategies of critical reading to be “imaginative”! Actually, they’re just reading competencies.
“I write to prevent war mongers and Tamil separatist Nationalists like you, spreading hatred and scuttling the best chance we in Sri Lanka have for Reconciliation.”
Yeah, right! We can all here see the evidence of your intense desire for Reconciliation–a desire so intense that you undermine Tamil attempts to testify to what they saw and experienced. The South African reconciliation process was largely about establishing the truth, about giving testimony–because, without truth, there is nothing to forgive and forget. People who want reconciliation seek the truth–they don’t spend their time fending off attacks on government propaganda and denouncing everything else as a lie.
Dear Belle,
The UTHR describes the Times report as follows.
The Timesonline report of 29th May citing UN sources, which gave the total killed for the year as 20 000, with 13 000 of the dead in May, said ‘the numbers killed by shelling doubled from March to April, with an average of 129 every day.’ In contrast our Bulletin No.47 published on 17th April stated, “Persons in regular touch with those who have escaped confirm that an average of 15 to 20 people die each day; either killed by shells or shot by the LTTE attempting to drive fear into would-be escapees.” That huge discrepancy cannot be bridged even if one adds combatant deaths. Also averages are misleading. April was a relatively quiet month until the Army entered the NFZ on 19th April.
Times – numbers killed by shelling doubled from March to April, with an average of 129 every day
UTHR – those who have escaped confirm that an average of 15 to 20 per day either killed by shells or shot by the LTTE
Times – 13 000 of the dead in May,
UTHR – That huge discrepancy cannot be bridged even if one adds combatant deaths.
UTHR has effectively called the Times story an Exaggeration and a Fabrication
Your defense of the Times basing it on a non existent ethical reputation instead of looking dispassionately at the facts as published by them just goes to prove your racist bias. You are even willing to ignore what the LTTE did to the Tamil civilians.
UTHR on UN figures >> “Thus although figures attributed to the UN have been considered authentic, there are many imponderables, such as who gave the figures from the ground and whether they adequately distinguished between civilians and (enforced) combatants.”
Belle >> even if you’re a Tamil employed by UN, you lack the capacity to speak the truth? And that’s not an attempt to undermine the truth value of any Tamil who does talk? That’s not racist?
The UTHR questions the CREDIBILITY of the figures. Those “who gave the figures from the ground“ were Tamil UN employees ….was that Chutzpah on the part of UTHR? In your case you are unable to accept the obvious if it’s pointed to you by a Sinhalese. Is that not Racist Bias?
I note that you have quietly dropped the subject of Gordon Wiess that you brought up earlier.
Here is the UTHR view of casualty figures
There was in the first 18 days of April a lower level of deaths due to army shelling, while the LTTE shooting at escapees continued
Speaking of averages is meaningless and of a hidden massacre is misleading. Such an expression immediately puts the government forces in mind. We know that on the May 14th and May 17th night, the LTTE was to a large extent responsible for civilian deaths.
Allowing for some exaggeration by TamilNet, the civilian dead was probably below 1000. As discussed earlier, the heaviest civilian casualties were during the last battle from the 17th evening to the 18th morning. Wile many civilian casualties resulted from LTTE shelling, the Army too by its harsh approach on this occasion caused many deaths totaling 1000 to 4000.
The UTHR has TORN the CREDIBILITY of the TIMES to shreds. Along with it your holier than though stance of Ethical Reporting.
I note that you have accepted that the Pic of the LTTE Graveyard was not in the same war zone as the NFZ. That pix is not of the NFZ war zone
These are extracts from the verbatim description of Beaston of the three pix used by them.
Times >> In the first photograph you can see the remains of what was a refugee camp for some 100,000 Tamil civilians………. so effectively you had a population, the size of a large football stadium packed with civilians trapped here for weeks upon weeks under the merciless bombardment of the govt offensive
This is what you wrote …” The Times never claimed that that photograph showed intense bombing. So there is no lying here.”
So we have a Merciless bombardment which is not intense.
Times >> In the second picture we can see what looks like a strange crop in the center of the photograph these are in fact we believe Tamil tiger graves, hundreds of them neatly laid in the fields buried presumably near where they fell.
Belle >> You assume that the area was bombarded. Why? Because The Times said there was merciless bombardment, so you assume that every picture they show is of areas that were bombarded?
Note what the Times say “near where they fell”. It means they were buried near where they fought and died not at a place remote from the bombardment. This was the message that the Times delivered to the reader. This was a prelude to comparing the LTTE graveyard to the NFZ graves. The message delivered was that the LTTE buries their dead in neat rows and columns and hence the haphazard graves were ONLY of civilians.
If they were buried “near where they fell” the graveyard must also be in the NFZ very close to where the fighting was. But this was the size of a “football stadium” and a 100,000 civilians lived there for at least a month (as per Times) along with the LTTE. The LTTE fought and died there. Where was the room to have a Big Graveyard the size of another football field, which escaped war damage?
This is the Times describing the third pix
In contrast to the Tamil Tiger dead, in this photograph is what we believe are the civilian mass graves down to the right these will be men women and children killed in the fighting and hurriedly buried by their relatives in between lulls in the onslaught”
Note how cunningly the comparison is made to the LTTE graveyard. Beaston specifically refers to the Haphazard graves as “civilian mass graves”. The terminology used is intended to incite. He completely excludes any LTTE dead within these graves. Strangely the CIVILIANS had to wait for a “LULL” in the bombing to bury their dead but the LTTE had all the time to collect and transport LTTE dead OUT of the NFZ and bury them in a neat graveyard. Very strange indeed. Common sense Belle, Common sense.
We refer to the main story on a page as a Leader or the lead article. However I see your point about the parent directory (comment) of the sub directory (leading_article) under which the story has been filed and hence concede it to you.
Below is the FULL extract of the UTHR report that I used. It includes censures on Govt
To get some idea of the casualties, after 19th April, the ICRC removed nearly 1000 patients and carers in two trips until 7th May and TamilNet reported that a further 500 injured were waiting for transportation. The next two major incidents involving civilian casualties from army action were on 9th and 15th May. On the 9th TamilNet estimated 2000 dead with 257 dead bodies and 814 injured brought to hospital. Dr. Shanmugarajah told AP that the dead and dying brought to hospital accounted for 430 deaths but the total was likely closer to 1000. He called it also the bloodiest day he had witnessed. On the 15th, a volunteer doctor reported seeing 800 bodies in the area where he moved. We quoted the TamilNet only as a useful indicator, although figures give by the doctors were, when available, significantly lower.
We may say that there was a fairly regular pattern until the end of March while the Army advanced and the LTTE and the people were pushed east. There was in the first 18 days of April a lower level of deaths due to army shelling, while the LTTE shooting at escapees continued. From 19th April there were as indicated above days on which deaths were high, 300 or more, notably on 9thand 10th May when it touched nearly 1000. On the 14th many escapees died due to LTTE shelling. On the 15th there was heavy fighting until about mid-day, resulting in heavy casualties among combatants, as well as civilians caught up in it. Allowing for some exaggeration by TamilNet, the civilian dead was probably below 1000. As discussed earlier, the heaviest civilian casualties were during the last battle from the 17th evening to the 18th morning. Wile many civilian casualties resulted from LTTE shelling, the Army too by its harsh approach on this occasion caused many deaths totalling 1000 to 4000.
In conclusion, the civilian casualties after 19th April need careful research. Speaking of averages is meaningless and of a hidden massacre is misleading. Such an expression immediately puts the government forces in mind. We know that on the May 14th and May 17th night, the LTTE was to a large extent responsible for civilian deaths. When an organisation fell apart in that manner, one section joined the civilians and escaped, another section feeling abandoned by the leadership and facing certain death from a Government that did not want to accept surrender, lost its balance and was angry with the others seeking to protect their life. We also pointed out that in giving casualty figures, the distinction between civilians, conscripts and cadres has not been clearly made.
We do not wish to underplay numbers, but focusing on numbers may result in unnecessary polemics to the cost of the deeper issues. If we avoided a worse catastrophe, it was due to unplanned factors. For the Government to launch the operation in this way was wrong and utterly irresponsible. No one could think well of a government that bombs and shells its own civilians. That point need not be made by quoting high figures of casualties. The only accurate means of finding out casualties is to count and alternatively to have a clear idea of what was happening on the ground. In their absence, technology and statistical formulae may turn out to be very misleading. Another important indicator is that the people who escaped during the last week of the conflict blame largely the LTTE, towards which their anger is directed.
Off the Cuff:
“What would be the estimate of innocent civilians killed (men women and children) in the sustained cruise missile attacks, Aerial bombardments and missile attacks and attacks by ground forces, denial of water, power and even access to Hospitals during the invasion of Iraq by the US led allied forces and the preceding sanctions ?”
You are committing a logical fallacy known as complex question by asking two separate, unrelated questions at the same time. I suggest that you rephrase your argument.
Also, provide html sources for your claim that 6K died. What was the time span, who was responsible, and how did they die?
—————–
Complex Question (Tying):
unrelated points are treated as if they should be accepted or rejected together. In fact, each point should be accepted or rejected on its own merits.
For example, “Do you support freedom and the right to bear arms ?”
http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#complexquestion
The following site gives an update to the UTHR’s estimate:
http://www.uthr.org/SpecialReports/Special%20rep34/Uthr-sp.rp34part5.htm
“This makes the dead from January to March, excluding those killed by the LTTE, more than an estimated 8000. We compare this with other figures given to us.
“At our request through a mutual friend, a lady doctor in the LTTE’s Medical Corps, who had a lot of field experience during this period gave her estimate of the total dead as 35 000 to 37 000. Her breakdown was January to March 10 000, April 10 000 and May 15 000.
“We find her estimate for April to be high with regard to estimates from casualties shipped by the ICRC together with perhaps another 1500 killed in the April 20th rescue operation, but her other estimates are quite plausible, especially the one for May.
“Given there were 60 000 families in the Vanni, the sample suggests that the total dead are numbered in tens of thousands.“
“gave her estimate of the total dead as 35 000 to 37 000…”
Long live the “Buddhist” nation! It’s definitely come a long way since Asoka sent Mahinda… in retrospect, he might as well have sent Attila the Hun or Genghis Khan.
Off the Cuff,
Please see Wijayapala’s link above for update on UTHR (J)’s estimate of the war dead. It would seem that they are now claiming more dead than The Times did.
At any rate, that was a misreading on your part that “UTHR has effectively called the Times story an Exaggeration and a Fabrication”. They didn’t do that. They queried the usefulness of computing the total by using daily average figures of those who died. They pointed out that these were low during some periods, and very high on other days. Their argument also was that there is no way of knowing the figures because the government was giving fake numbers, and it is difficult to differentiate the civilian dead from the enforced conscripted dead. They never said The Times’ scale of those dead was exaggerated. In fact, they pointed out that when the government said there were 70,000 in the NFZ, there had actually been 200,000. That scale of government disinformation makes it very plausible that the number of dead could be in the 10s of thousands. UTHR (J) differed from The Times only in that they saw the killing, NOT as a “hidden massacre” by the government as the Times did, but as carelessness and irresponsibility on the part of government.
This is what UTHR (J) is saying now: “We were ourselves guilty of understatements and mix ups, the sum of which allowed the Government to manipulate the discourse.” They add: “What we gathered is that we must be prepared for much higher casualty figures than are commonly talked about. The UN briefing [9 Mar 2009, Colombo] gives us a hint.”
Get it? Now they’re looking at UN figures, the source of info that The Times used.
I see you’re still obsessing about The Times photos! Obsess away. I think you want to focus on those pictures simply because there is so little information available on those pictures that you think you can say whatever you want and make it stick–and discredit The Times that way. I’ll talk about those pictures when the dozens that they took are all published. Right now, there’s nothing to go on. The 20K estimate was not based on 3 pictures but on UN sources, documents, and witnesses’ accounts.
I pity you. You certainly have an impossible task ahead of you trying to prove government innocence. How does one prove that a government is innocent of war crimes when it won’t let anyone investigate it; when after the war, it did that strange thing of forbiding NGOs to come anywhere near the incarcerated civilians to help them? What more proof does anyone need that the government had lots of things they had to hide? Was it mines they had to clear before allowing the camp inmates to return home, or did they need the time to get rid of the evidence?
I have not “quietly dropped the subject of Gordon Wiess”. I simply forgot about him. He said anything from 10,000 to 40,000 civilians died, and emphasised that as many as 40,000 could have died.
http://tamilinsight.org/mydesk/blog/un-former-spokesperson-gordon-weiss-the-sri-lankan-government-said-many-things/
Dear Belle,
I have seen the New UTHR report thanks to Wijeyapala. He threw a lifeline at you and you grabbed it with both hands. I have discussed the new UTHR report in a separate post addressed to the GV readership. What I state there is also applicable here.
The point in this whole discussion is the FABRICATED reporting of the Times not the actual war dead.
You say “At any rate, that was a misreading on your part that “UTHR has effectively called the Times story an Exaggeration and a Fabrication”. They didn’t do that.”
Misreading?
How do you interpret the following statement by UTHR in referring to the Times story?
“…..That huge discrepancy cannot be bridged even if one adds combatant deaths.”
Mathematically it will look like this
Civilians killed by SLF + Civilians killed by LTTE + LTTE dead is less than the Times figure
They did not mince any words did they?
However to a self proclaimed reading and comprehension expert it may convey another meaning altogether.
The language, as I understand it, tells me that the UTHR is calling the Times a Liar very politely.
So much for your rebuttal.
UTHR did not stop there. It called the Times’ sensational reporting of a “Hidden Massacre” as misleading as it points a finger exclusively at Govt Forces while excluding the LTTE of blame for murdering Tamil Civilians. UTHR “KNEW” that the LTTE were murdering Tamil Civilians as seen by their statement below.
“We know that on the May 14th and May 17th night, the LTTE was to a large extent responsible for civilian deaths”
The UTHR not only calls the Times reports a Lie it even accuses it of misleading the reader
Again for a self proclaimed expert like you, it may be conveying an altogether different meaning.
We are talking of information that was AVAILABLE by 29th May the day the Times’ published their Stories, not info coming to light 6 Months later. When writing the report, UTHR had access to ground info in addition to all other info anyone else had.
The UTHR thus on 10 June 2009 refutes the Times’ claim and calls it a LIE by stating that the Times’ figures exceed even the TOTAL dead.
civilians killed by the SLF + Civilians killed by the LTTE + LTTE Terrorist dead
The UTHR claim is based on the following
Persons in regular touch with those who have escaped
Tamilnet reports
Casualties evacuated by the ICRC
Dead brought to hospitals
Dr. Shanmugarajah’s reports (SL Govt doctor)
A volunteer doctor’s reports
UTHR says “We quoted the TamilNet only as a useful indicator, although figures given by the doctors were, when available, significantly lower.
The Times is PANDERING to the 300,000 Tamils living in the UK (a good way to boost circulation). It is not interested in reporting the impartial truth. Even a quick look at the comments section which is inundated by Pro LTTE propaganda interspersed with a few counter comments will prove my point. I have personal experience of the difficulty in posting in the Times where counter arguments are consistently rejected by the moderators. I would not have been bothered writing here if their reports were objective but they are not.
You on the other hand write about a non existent “Reputation” in justifying the Blatant Deception that Times practices and has become complicit in it. This is the only thing that you have been falling back on every time the subject of the pictures is raised.
The special Report No 34 from UTHR came out Six months AFTER the Times published the three FABRICATED AND BIASED stories using the IDENTICAL material on the SAME DAY.
As time goes on the number of dead may rise further or might fall (please see my other post on the UTHR report) but that is not an excuse for FABRICATED reporting. Reporting should be factual not done by innuendo.
In view of the THOUSANDS killed by the LTTE attributing accurate numbers to govt will be a difficult if not an impossible task.
You ask me why I write about the pictures. It’s because they along with the three stories of the Times proves that they FABRICATED the stories and you have been unable to contest them using known facts.
You have now accepted that the LTTE graveyard pix is not from the war zone (what else was there to do when there is no war damage in it). That is exactly what I stated at the begining. The LTTE graveyard was not anywhere near the war zone of the NFZ. The Times used it to DECEIVE the reader into believing that the LTTE buries their dead in Neatly laid out rows and columns even during ADVERSE conditions of WAR. Probably the Sun God had a bomb shield over it.
The Times introduced this picture sandwiched between TWO war zone pictures of the NFZ. After CUNNINGLY slipping that picture on the unsuspecting reader, their foreign editor had the affront to compare it to the NFZ graves and call them “Civilian Mass Graves” completely eliminating the possibility of those graves containing terrorists. Large number of Terrorists died in the NFZ as well as civilians who were held there by force as a Human Shield. Where did the Terrorist bodies go to? Heaven or Hell or to the remote grave yard or buried where they fell in the NFZ?
Their logic if there was any, was to state that the LTTE bury their dead in neatly laid rows even when they are subject to a Merciless and intense bombardment where the Civilians who got bombed (due to the LTTE using them as a Human Shield) had to “WAIT FOR A LULL IN THE BOMBING” to “HURRIEDLY” bury their dead. So intense and merciless was the bombing but the LTTE grave diggers were unaffected due to the Sun God’s Bomb Shield.
The Times counted on the emotion aroused by such a story clouding the ability to think rationally. Personally I was aghast when I listened to Beaston’s commentary at first and angry after I realized the deception.
You wrote “I think you want to focus on those pictures simply because there is so little information available on those pictures that you think you can say whatever you want and make it stick–and discredit The Times that way.”
It has already stuck and very hard too.
There is a whole heap of information in those pictures to prove the stinking fabrications of the Times but nothing that supports Beaston’s commentary. You are struggling to refute factually the use of a picture of an LTTE graveyard unaffected by the war cunningly slipped in between TWO war affected pictures of the NFZ accompanied by a much more cunning and incite full commentary.
Dear GV,
Attention has been drawn by Wijeyapala to the New UTHR Special Report number 35 of 13 December.
This report works backwards from the known population of the Vanni (not govt estimates) and the final count of the IDP’s, to arrive at an estimated number of persons that can be classified as missing or dead.
The report states,
“Another important figure is the 330,000 given for the number of people on the run by a Senior Government Official (SGO)”.
This is the estimated population remaining in the Vanni
“The highest number recorded in IDP camps is 290 000 on 25th May. This leaves a minimum of 40 000 to be reconciled as dead or missing.”
“The gap between this figure and those eventually in IDP camps is more than 40 000.”
The UTHR thus sets a ceiling of 40000 civilians as dead or missing.
The UTHR further states “As to whether these give an indication of the total dead requires careful consideration. Persons interested in such matters who were in Manik farm tell us that a number got away by paying money or through sneaking away without leaving a record with the Government.”
Dr. Packiyasothy Saravanamuttu says
“What is also revealing is that the bulk of the nearly 20,000 who have escaped from IDP centres are “believed” to be LTTE cadres”
As recognised by the UTHR these persons will not have any record and hence would not be included in the 290000 maximum of recorded IDP’s.
Hence these persons form part of the unaccounted 40,000 which lowers the unaccounted number to 20,000
Though the UTHR recognize that some got away by bribery, it had failed to subtract that figure from the number unaccounted for, probably not realizing that such numbers would be considerable viz 20,000.
It may be an oversight on my part but I did not see any consideration given to the above escapees in selecting the Peak IDP level at 290000. I hope someone can point to such a reference in the UTHR special report 35 of 13 Dec.
The unaccounted figure is hence 20.000and NOT 40,000. These are either dead or missing.
Another point to remember is the people who have fled the country after the 330000 estimate was done. This number will reduce the 330000 population that the UTHR works with. It will be significant if those who fled are significantly large.
290000 (IDP max) + 20000 (Number who bribed and got out) + the number who left the country = 330000
Since item 3 is yet unknown the 20000 figure that remains to be classified as dead or missing may be even lower. This indicates that the figures originally quoted by UTHR in their Special Report No. 32 of 10th June 2009 would be closer to the truth as it is corroborated by both systems used for calculating the estimates.
As the UTHR itself says “….in giving casualty figures, the distinction between civilians, conscripts and cadres has not been clearly made”.
Hence basing the CIVILIAN dead on a combined casualty figure that contains Terrorist wounded would necessarily inflate the actual civilian dead.
This report quotes a LTTE DOCTOR’s estimates as follows
January – March 10000 UTHR says it’s “PLAUSIBLE”
April 10000 rejected by UTHR as inflated
May 15000 UTHR says it’s “PLAUSIBLE”
It is difficult to believe that an LTTE source which also would be the Tamilnet source would give objective estimates. UTHR itself rejects the April figures given by the same LTTE doctor as inflated. This fact cannot be overlooked when looking at the “plausible” figures emanating from the same LTTE source.
More so due to the following observation of UTHR
“We quoted the TamilNet only as a useful indicator, although figures given by the doctors were, when available, significantly lower”.
The above statement is from Special Report No. 32 of 10th June 2009
I believe that the UTHR was led to classify the May civilian dead figure given by the LTTE source as “plausible” due to the earlier erroneous figure of 40,000 they arrived at which has now proven to be significantly lower, even if the number who got away by bribery is lower than what Dr. Packiyasothy Saravanamuttu estimates it to be.
I hope GV will refer this post to UTHR for their observations.
Dear Heshan,
Nowhere did UTHR blame the “Buddhist nation” for the deaths. I still maintain that the civilian deaths were primarily the fault of the LTTE which prevented them from fleeing the battlefield.
The proof is in UTHR’s own writings that the vast majority of the Vanni Tamils blamed the LTTE, not the SLA, for the tragedy.
Off the Cuff,
Yes, I took the “lifeline” offered by Wijayapala’s post—and there is nothing to apologise for on that account. If one keeps an open mind, one does not say “no” to a piece of information just because of the circumstances under which it came to us. Information is information. The issue is whether it is valid.
Nevertheless, my reading of the earlier report by UTHR (J) is valid. Unlike you, I don’t hang on to one sentence of the report as my “lifeline”, i.e “…..That huge discrepancy cannot be bridged even if one adds combatant deaths.” One has to read the WHOLE report to look at where it is going. The report does not say The Times’ estimate of the dead is implausible or wrong, but that it cannot be arrived at by looking at daily average figures of the numbers dead (because they fluctuated). That the report points to government severely underestimating the numbers in the NFZ already provides for the plausibility of the total estimate of numbers dead offered by Times, even though their method of arriving there may not be valid.
Like I’ve said, The Times had many sources, not just the one source of daily numbers dead. They had UN satellite pictures too, and UN documents, which however they could not publish due to laws governing confidentiality. What comes across when you read the development of The Times’ reports is that they knew the overall situation but were constrained in publishing all that they knew–so they tried to tell the story through the sources they could legally use. That UTHR (J) now refers to UN information suggests how reliable that information is because earlier, UTHR (J) had resisted that information. UTHR (J) is not stupidly following UN information—it has arrived there after a great deal of thought and work put into gathering information.
That you think The Times wrote these reports to pander to 300,000 of the British Tamil diaspora is laughable. The Times’ readership is global–they are on the Internet! They are courting millions, not hundreds of thousands. Anyway, contemporary newspapers no longer derive the bulk of their income from from selling physical copies of newspapers. They get their income from advertising. British businesses are not going to flock to The Times with their advertisements just because 300,000 Tamils are reading their papers. In truth, not all 300,000 Tamils can read English, can they? I would be surprised if 150K could. Only a paranoid mind like yours can think that The Times twists its information to cater to 300,000 readers!
And, no, I don’t accept that the LTTE graveyard was outside the NFZ. The Times did not say where it was located, so I don’t know its location. I merely offered some speculative reasoning, and you are trying to twist that into my claims that that is what actually happened. You are truly desperate.
Even more desperate is your attempt to dismantle the latest report by the UTHR (J). As UTHR (J) said, the highest level recorded of people at the camps was 290K for 25 May. Please look at this website for numbers in the camps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lankan_IDP_camps
Note that the numbers decrease and reach 247,073 on 9 Oct. That means 43,389 are missing. However, by 9 Oct, only 26,838 had been released from the camps. So, 16,551 are missing. That figure is close to the numbers of 20K that are said to have escaped, which apparently comprises mostly cadres. (Actually, they did not escape–they paid to be let out.) So, we’re still left with 40K missing of the 330K who are on the run (i.e. 330K minus 290K).
I wonder why you post your disagreement with the UTHR (J) report here and ask GV to send it on to UTHR (J) rather than do it yourself. Obviously, you know that your rebuttal will not work with UTHR (J) because they are so obviously on top of information gathering. So you post it here so that people less familiar with the situation will buy into your hogwash. That sounds like propaganda production to me rather than any attempt to find out the truth.
Just to add to the last post, the website from which I took figures of those in the camps is this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lankan_IDP_camps
Also, it seems now you’re saying that 20,000 are dead or missing. Obviously they’re not missing cos you’ve already subtracted your figures of those missing. Now, 20K is the same figure floated by The Times! Yet, The Times is fabricating, but you are not!
Isn’t it amazing that The Times got to this figure long before anyone else did?
Wijayapala,
Yes, it is no doubt true that the LTTE made the killings of such large numbers of people possible. But the LTTE are terrorists. The government on the other hand is elected into power to protect citizens. They shouldn’t be firing at citizens when a terrorist has them in its grasp.
I wonder if the LTTE had held thousands of Sinhalese hostage in a field, whether you would think it acceptable for the government to shoot the Sinhalese in order to decimate the LTTE.
Of course, the Vanni people would blame the LTTE rather than the government. Northern Tamils felt the brunt of Rajapakse’s tyranny long before the South did, and would not have expected the government to protect them—even if it is the undeniable duty of the government to do so. Perhaps too many of them were sufficiently naive as to expect the LTTE to protect them, hence the bitter blaming afterwards.
Dear Belle,
In this post I will be dealing with your comments regarding the New UTHR report as I consider it the more important one. I will reply the rest of your post which deals with the Times later.
You have clearly missed the Logic employed by UTHR in getting at the numbers that are missing. Their new Special Report number 34 deviates from their earlier method of estimating the dead which was based on actual casualties and other info. In report 34 they work downwards from the known population.
The known population estimate is 330000
The IDP max is 190000
This leaves an unknown number of 40000
Dr. Packiyasothy Saravanamuttu puts the Number that escaped from IDP centers through Bribery at nearly 20,000.
This number has no official record as IDPs
The UTHR recognizes this fact as seen from their statement “Persons interested in such matters who were in Manik farm tell us that a number got away by paying money or through sneaking away without leaving a record with the Government.”
Hence the unregistered IDP escapees numbering 20000 are NOT INCLUDED in the max IDP numbers and has to be accounted for.
Hence the Total population of 330000 = 190000 (max Registered IDP) + 20000 (Unregistered IDP escapees) + Unaccounted number
Hence Unaccounted Number = 330000-210000 = 20000
The ONLY way you can contest the above is by contesting the statements of Dr. Packiyasothy Saravanamuttu and the UTHR as I have not made any statements of my own, I have just interpreted the Data provided by both of them.
This does not account for the Numbers that have moved out of the Vanni after the population estimate, i.e. those that have left the country or are living in the South without going through any registering process. Hence if this number is found to be significant (ie. a few thousand), it will also have a significant effect on the Final number that can be classified as dead or missing.
Obviously you have not seen my invitation to those who are interested to correct what I have written.
My actual name and email address is known to GV and I intend to keep it that way for the time being. Hence my request to GV.
How can verifiable information become propaganda?
UTHR is respected as they strive to keep emotion out of factual assessment. But they are not INFALLIBLE and can be questioned in a public forum. If you do not like it that’s your problem but I believe UTHR will welcome different points of view as they are interested at getting to the TRUTH.
@off the cuff
the 20,000 that Saravanamuttu GUESSES at escaped from the CAMPS after there were register… so it STILL remains:
330,000 (UN/GA number in sept 2008) – 287,000 (GoSL/UN number in May/June 2008) = 43,000 dead/missing
Just accept it and move on. You have your ‘victors peace’ just publicly admit what it cost and state what we already know you feel inside, which is that, “It was worth it whatever the cost to the Tamil civilians.”
can peace be founded on the slaughter of 43,000 civilian, will the seeds of democracy take root on the blood soaked beaches of Mulivaikayal?
Dear xman,
Read what the UTHR says about that.
Look for the truth not for what you want to believe in
Dear Belle,
The Times FABRICATED the evidence. That’s what I said all along.
You decided to challenge what I said but failed to explain the Pictures and the contents of the THREE stories which includes Beaston’s Commentary.
Since you did not have facts you decided to use a Non existent REPUTATION and unpublished pictures which no one has seen (including you) instead of using the PUBLISHED material.
Your argument looks much like the caption a student wrote underneath a blank paper. It read “A Bull Eating Grass”.
When the Teacher asked where the Bull was, pat came the answer “It finished eating and went away”. When the teacher asked where the grass was the student answered without batting an eye lid “The Bull ate all”
The second matter is about the UTHR figures. Don’t confuse the two
Base your argument on known facts not your imagination.
“Also, it seems now you’re saying that 20,000 are dead or missing. Obviously they’re not missing cos you’ve already subtracted your figures of those missing.” so you said on March 11, 2010 @ 12:09 pm
Looks like you have suddenly got up from a stupor
“Dead or missing” is the term UTHR uses. What else should I use when discussing their report?
UTHR says “This leaves a minimum of 40 000 to be reconciled as dead or missing. ”
Looks like the self proclaimed expert’s comprehension faculties have deserted her.
Don’t forget what the UTHR says
“But they said that the figures need to be qualified by two factors. One was that even as the figures were being compiled, people were dying and escaping. The other is that the figures included LTTE cadres and conscripts who were on family lists.”
“Also the number killed by the LTTE would also run into several thousands. LTTE cadres and conscripts killed based on a working estimate of 50 a day from those who had LTTE contacts, works out to nearly 7000 from January to May 2009.”
So how much would you estimate the final figure to be?
Off the Cuff,
If you want to argue on the basis of numbers, I would suggest you check your numbers and your calculations. That is the minimum we should hope for.
The max of 290K in the camps on 25 May becomes 190K in your post! Like UTHR (J) said about the government, you too are disappearing people on paper!
And 330K minus 190K is 40K???
Then you give us this:
“Hence the Total population of 330000 = 190000 (max Registered IDP) + 20000 (Unregistered IDP escapees) + Unaccounted number
Hence Unaccounted Number = 330000-210000 = 20000″
330K-210K is 20K?????
Aren’t you glad you didn’t send your brilliant report to UTHR (J)? They probably would have appreciated the opportunity to have a good laugh (considering the numbers they were crunching were pretty gloomy).
A final point: you seem to assume that the escaped 20K all did so BEFORE the 290K said to be at the camps on 25 May. Where is your evidence for this? I happen to know that people were still escaping in June. They paid bribes of US17K per person, and US20K per person for military escort to Colombo. You think the Tamil diaspora, especially recent refugees, can arrange for these sums of money at a moment’s notice to get them out within a week of the end of the war? People didn’t even know where their relatives were, in the camps or outside, or dead for many days after the end of the war, so how could they arrange to pay bribes immediately? On what basis do you claim that they were not registered? And if they were not registered, how did anyone know that they had escaped?
I see you’ve dropped your critique of The Times, now that you have arrived at the same figure that they cited. Sure you’re not fabricating, as you said The Times was? Or does something stop being a fabrication as long as you’re the one making the claim?
A side note: more needs to be written on the so-called bribery. If 20K LTTE were able to pay their way out, this undermines the basis for establishing the camps in the first place: to weed out ex-LTTE (at least this was one excuse, in addition to the threat of possible landmines in former LTTE areas). What this shows is that most ex-LTTE pose little or no threat to the larger society. One must then ask why SL continues to be a security state, such as it does, with Emergency Regulations being passed on a regular basis. And, in general, why organizations like the IMF continue to prop up this welfare state, when HR abuses are as clear as day?
The most serious issue, however, would be the UN funding of the detention camps. If I am not mistaken, the cost of the camps came to at least 1 million USD per week. In addition, the UN is also funding numerous “rehabilitation” camps for ex-LTTE members (of course the camps are run by local organizations under the umbrella of the Sri Lankan Government). The UN cannot simply say it funded such camps – and continues to fund such camps – out of compassion for the “displaced.” The camps would not have existed without the UN and therefore the UN, by way of funding, should have been able to demand greater compliance from the Government as far as maintaining the camps in a more appropriate manner is concerned.
Conclusion: The fact that the UN simply funded the camps without demanding stronger terms illustrates poor fiscal responsibility on the part of the UN, and it also seems to indicate apathy on the part of the UN, when it comes to member-states misbehaving.
Dear Belle,
Is an obvious typo the only thing you have to hang your argument on? A look at my earlier post of March 11, 2010 @ 12:19 am to which you replied should have made that clear. Never thought you were so intellectually defunct.
“A final point: you seem to assume that the escaped 20K all did so BEFORE the 290K said to be at the camps on 25 May. Where is your evidence for this?” you wrote on March 11, 2010 @ 8:44 pm
I have made no assumptions as what I wrote is based on UTHR report of 13th December 2009 and Dr Saravanamutthu’s of October 2009.
So unless you are accusing the UTHR and Dr. Packiyasothy Saravanamuttu to be LIARS, you will have to accept what UTHR states on 13 Dec 2009 as holding TRUE up to that date.
Learn to READ & Comprehend Belle just making High Brow statements and proclaiming yourself as an expert at it is just not good enough.
“You think the Tamil diaspora, especially recent refugees, can arrange for these sums of money at a moment’s notice to get them out within a week of the end of the war? ” you wrote.
From what I see December 13th is almost 7 MONTHS from the end of war. How many weeks is that? Might help if you start using your fingers to count.
Not easy to refute what comes out of the pen of Tamils of standing within the community is it? Not as easy as throwing the racist card at a Sinhalese who says the same thing? You should learn to use moderation and you will be treated with moderation
Since you claim to have such intimate knowledge of monies paid to the SL military, I begin to suspect that you are within the inner circles of the remnants of the LTTE.
You have got into a quagmire Belle and you are getting muddied all over.
“I see you’ve dropped your critique of The Times, now that you have arrived at the same figure that they cited. Sure you’re not fabricating, as you said The Times was? Or does something stop being a fabrication as long as you’re the one making the claim?” you wrote.
Why are you making such silly blunders like this?
Were you unable to read what I wrote on March 11, 2010 @ 3:30 pm
Here is an extract for reference
“In this post I will be dealing with your comments regarding the New UTHR report as I consider it the more important one. I will reply the rest of your post which deals with the Times later. ”
[Edited out]
Watch out, you are eternally getting your knickers in a twist.
Belle,
“But the LTTE are terrorists.”
Unfortunately, not enough people out there agreed with your above enlightened assessment to provide another solution to what happened.
“I wonder if the LTTE had held thousands of Sinhalese hostage in a field, whether you would think it acceptable for the government to shoot the Sinhalese in order to decimate the LTTE.”
I think we’ve already answered that question. 40,000-60,000 Sinhala youth perished in the anti-JVP campaign in 1987-89.
How come nobody back then called for Pres. Premadasa and Ranjan Wijeratne to answer for war crimes? Are Sinhala lives less equal than Tamils?
Wijeyapala,
Why do you say the SL government of Premadasa should be held accountable for the death of 40,000-60,000 Sinhalese youth and not the JVP that started the insurrection? Just trying to understand why you blame the LTTE for the Tamil civilians dead, but not the JVP for creating the situation that led to the loss of Sinhalese lives. If you’re saying the government had to kill Tamil civilians in the interests of national security, then the same excuse applies to the killing of Sinhalese youth.
Off the Cuff,
“I have made no assumptions as what I wrote is based on UTHR report of 13th December 2009 and Dr Saravanamutthu’s of October 2009.
So unless you are accusing the UTHR and Dr. Packiyasothy Saravanamuttu to be LIARS, you will have to accept what UTHR states on 13 Dec 2009 as holding TRUE up to that date.”
I haven’t read Saravanamuttu’s report and haven’t engaged that, but could you please cite exactly where in the UTHR (J) report it states that those who escaped did so before 25 May? You’re saying that the numbers of those who escaped are extraneous to the max of 290K in camps on 25 May, so I infer from that that the escapees made their bid for freedom before 25 May (otherwise, their names would be on the list of 25 May).
Typos are only made once. When the same typo is made twice, then it becomes more than carelessness–it becomes misinformation. When you make simple addition and subtraction mistakes twice in a row, that too is not a typo.
“Since you claim to have such intimate knowledge of monies paid to the SL military, I begin to suspect that you are within the inner circles of the remnants of the LTTE.”
No, I just have friends of friends and know domestic workers in Singapore who had family caught in the war, some of whom were bailed out. I know when they were bailed out and how much they paid cos they told me.
Anyway, why do you think I have connections with the LTTE–it wasn’t the LTTE that set that price per head. It was the SL military. Hmmm, maybe I AM within the inner circles of the SL military!
“Not easy to refute what comes out of the pen of Tamils of standing within the community is it? Not as easy as throwing the racist card at a Sinhalese who says the same thing? You should learn to use moderation and you will be treated with moderation”
I accept what UTHR (J) and The Times say because their sources are based on the ground and on UN sources, not because they are Tamil. I throw the racist card at you not because you are a Sinhalese but because you show clear racism every time you write and because you constantly defend government propaganda, beyond all reason.
I would never dream of using moderation with you.
“From what I see December 13th is almost 7 MONTHS from the end of war. How many weeks is that? Might help if you start using your fingers to count.”
Nice try. You’re arguing about people escaping before the numbers rose to 290K on 25 May. What does the date of the report (13 Dec) have to do with the dates when these events happened (i.e. 25 May and prior to that)?
You really shouldn’t make fun of others’ counting ability when you just claimed that 330K minus 210K is 20K! Maybe you should STOP using your fingers to count, and try handling a calculator. Go on–it’s really easy once you try!
Belle,
“Why do you say the SL government of Premadasa should be held accountable for the death of 40,000-60,000 Sinhalese youth and not the JVP that started the insurrection?”
Most Sinhala voters do hold the JVP accountable as demonstrated by elections results. However, the JVP did not force 300,000 Sinhalese into a high-intensity warzone and forcibly keep them there.
Wijayapala, The LTTE didn’t force civilians into war zones; it prevented them from escaping areas that the SL army had decided would be a war zone. How did the NFZ become a firing zone without government involvement? Rajapakse said in an interview that he tricked the LTTE by luring them into a NFZ.
I am really amazed that people expect ethical behaviour from terrorists but not from a government that they have voted into power. I’m referring to public tolerance of government killings of both Tamil and Sinhalese civilians. What happens at the voting booth? Don’t the people give power away to politicians with the expectation and demand that they behave honourably, that, at the very least, they don’t go about killing innocent civilians?
Dear Belle,
“please cite exactly where in the UTHR (J) report it states that those who escaped did so before 25 May?”
No they haven’t said anything like that but the period covers up to 13 Dec and Dr Saravanamuttu’s is in October
“You’re saying that the numbers of those who escaped are extraneous to the max of 290K in camps on 25 May, so I infer from that that the escapees made their bid for freedom before 25 May (otherwise, their names would be on the list of 25 May). ”
Good point. Unless there was a regimental style daily Roll Call 6.5 % hiding amongst 310K is not an impossibility.
Escapees could not have escalated to 20K unnoticed, if there was a record. If there was a record those who accepted bribes would get caught. That would be too much of a risk for those who were responsible for them. The absence of such close record keeping was the factor that helped in getting them out.
” Typos are only made once. When the same typo is made twice, then it becomes more than carelessness–it becomes misinformation. When you make simple addition and subtraction mistakes twice in a row, that too is not a typo. “
Not necessarily so. The important figure is the Difference which never went down. The difference was the base of the Argument. The difference is shown clearly in my original post on March 11, 2010 @ 12:19 am extract below
Extract
“290000 (IDP max) + 20000 (Number who bribed and got out) + the number who left the country = 330000″
You replied this post. Hence you were well aware of my position and how the calculation was made. The HIGHER the IDPmax value the Better it is for my argument. Lowering that value to 190k would defeat my own argument as then the dead or missing would climb to 120,000. Hanging on an obvious error made in a post written more than 20 hours later was unethical as you were AWARE of the argument and the mistake was apparent as it was DETRIMENTAL to my argument not buttressing it. That is why you are intellectually defunct.
“No, I just have friends of friends and know domestic workers in Singapore who had family caught in the war, some of whom were bailed out. I know when they were bailed out and how much they paid cos they told me.”
The majority who got out were Terrorists that’s what Dr Saravanamuttu says and you know quite a lot of them as you say.
” I accept what UTHR (J) and The Times say because their sources are based on the ground and on UN sources, not because they are Tamil. I throw the racist card at you not because you are a Sinhalese but because you show clear racism every time you write and because you constantly defend government propaganda, beyond all reason.”
Your writings questioned their statements in no uncertain terms because those writings went contrary to your arguments. You were struggling to twist the meaning to suit your own view. So what you write above is also a big Lie.
“I would never dream of using moderation with you.”
You are very welcome to be a war mongering Tamil Nationalist I have no problem with that. But you will get an appropriate response to whatever propaganda you write.
There is a section of the Tamil Diaspora who were never prepared to fight, deserted the so called freedom struggle and condemned the Tamil Children of the Vanni to fight in their place BUT are however BRAVER THAN THE BRAVEST of them from the safety and the comfort of their homes abroad.
Prabhakaran lost his bid for Eelam not because he was short of Sophisticated Arms and Munitions but because he was short of ADULTS who were prepared to fight. Nearly a quarter million of them proved to be cowards. That made the difference between Victory and Defeat.
I don’t care what the Govt says but I care about the misinformation that Tamil Nationalists want to spread using the Internet. In the past not many Sinhalese realized (including me) the damage the Tamil Nationalists were able to do to my country. Now many of us know and because there is an effective challenge to such TAMIL NATIONALIST PROPAGANDA the real target of such propaganda have started to realize the other side of the story.
The change in public opinion in Canada etc is very visible now.
You can talk about oppression and we will counter that.
You talk about inequlaities we will counter it.
You talk about Education we will counter that.
You talk about Traditional Homelands we will counter that
You make a fair comment then we will discuss that.
Belle,
“The LTTE didn’t force civilians into war zones; it prevented them from escaping areas that the SL army had decided would be a war zone.”
Wrong. Nearly the entire population of the Wanni was trapped in Putumatalan. They wouldn’t have gotten there if the LTTE had not herded them there.
“I am really amazed that people expect ethical behaviour from terrorists but not from a government that they have voted into power.”
And I am really amazed that you did not answer my point that the “international community” actually did not treat the LTTE as terrorists. Why would they pressure the government to negotiate with terrorists?
OTC,
“Nearly a quarter million of them proved to be cowards. That made the difference between Victory and Defeat.”
Excuse me, are you saying that ordinary Tamils are cowards because they did not want to fight and kill people?
What would that make you?
Wijayapala,
I haven’t seen reports that the LTTE herded people into Putumattalan. From what I gather, civilians were fleeing as the army advanced. In this report that I found on the net, families fled from Kilinochchi district as the army arrived there. LTTE drove one family into Putumattalan (and probably did that to others as well), but the question is why did these families even arrive near the area?
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/jun2009/slcm-j27.shtml
Maybe you’d like to give me some info on this.
“And I am really amazed that you did not answer my point that the “international community” actually did not treat the LTTE as terrorists. Why would they pressure the government to negotiate with terrorists?”
Actually, you never asked me this question. But the answer is obvious, isn’t it? That the international community wanted the government to negotiate with the terrorists on humanitarian grounds, to save the lives of the civilians caught in the war? After their nightmarish mistake in Rwanda, one can see why they would pursue this course. Any humanitarian would. Of course, the international community treated the LTTE as terrorists—especially, post 9/11. It severely affected LTTE income, and led to their decline.
Hey Off the Cuff,
Getting to be quite the poet, aren’t you? A bad one, but nevertheless resorting to rhetorical flourishes to distract from having lost the argument.
I have no idea what Dr Saravanamuttu says. All I know is that the people I’ve heard of who got bailed out were not LTTE cadres though they obviously lived in LTTE-controlled areas.
“Unless there was a regimental style daily Roll Call 6.5 % hiding amongst 310K is not an impossibility. Escapees could not have escalated to 20K unnoticed, if there was a record. If there was a record those who accepted bribes would get caught. That would be too much of a risk for those who were responsible for them. The absence of such close record keeping was the factor that helped in getting them out.”
What risk is there? The fees for freedom were set by the army, not by individual personnel. If you paid higher fees, you even got military escort to Colombo. You mean the army doesn’t notice its vehicles being used to transport such large numbers of people? Was it that easy to get out of camps unnoticed? All the reports said there was heavy surveillance, especially in the initial weeks. Strange isn’t it that I, some nobody in Singapore, knew this was happening since late May, and that it only hit the news in SL many months after? You think the government really did not notice 20K missing all those months?
Anyway, if the 20K who escaped were not part of the 290K, how do you account for the discrepancy in the figures that the numbers in the camps had decreased to 247,073 on 9 Oct, but only 26,838 had been released? That leaves a shortfall of 16,551 to be accounted for.
It’s really hilarious to think that those who escaped weren’t registered at the camps. If they weren’t registered, how do people know that 20K escaped? You say the 6.5% were in hiding in the camps. Are you saying that they already knew they were going to be bailed out even before they checked into the camps, and hence resisted being registered? That’s nonsense.
“No they haven’t said anything like that but the period covers up to 13 Dec and Dr Saravanamuttu’s is in October”
I was quite sure they hadn’t said anything like that. That is your own invention, and you were trying to pretend that they had said it. Unfortunately, I called you on it. I don’t see what period the reports were filed has to do with whether all 20K escaped before the numbers got up to 290K on 25 May.
“Hanging on an obvious error made in a post written more than 20 hours later was unethical as you were AWARE of the argument and the mistake was apparent as it was DETRIMENTAL to my argument not buttressing it. That is why you are intellectually defunct.”
You make mistakes, but I’m the one who is intellectually defunct. Nice. If I can take the trouble to be careful with my numbers, you can too. Otherwise, don’t bother to engage people, and scold them for your shabbiness.
“Prabhakaran lost his bid for Eelam not because he was short of Sophisticated Arms and Munitions but because he was short of ADULTS who were prepared to fight. Nearly a quarter million of them proved to be cowards. That made the difference between Victory and Defeat.”
If we fight, we are terrorists. If we don’t fight, we are cowards. That’s exactly the kind of reasoning one always gets with the likes of you.
Dear Wijeyapala,
The answer to your question is here.
extract
There is a section of the Tamil Diaspora who were never prepared to fight, deserted the so called freedom struggle and condemned the Tamil Children of the Vanni to fight in their place BUT are however BRAVER THAN THE BRAVEST of them from the safety and the comfort of their homes abroad.
They are not “Ordinary Tamils”
Hey Hey Belle,
” If we fight, we are terrorists. If we don’t fight, we are cowards. That’s exactly the kind of reasoning one always gets with the likes of you.” so you wrote in your last post.
No I don’t consider a FIGHTER who fights another ARMED group a Terrorist.
A TERRORIST is a coward who PURPOSEFULLY TARGETS non combatants such as UNARMED, UNPROTECTED, Babies, Children, School children, Pregnant Women, Women, Pilgrims, Priests and Men outside the war Zone.
Some RAN AWAY from this so called Freedom Fight but from the safety and comfort of their homes staged Terrorist flag carrying demonstrations, provided funds, moral support and encouragement to a Fascist Group IGNORING the KNOWN ATTROCITIES these Fascists commit against fellow Tamils living under them which included FORCED conscription of Children (as young as 10 years), Torture & Murder of Dissidents and use Civilians as a MORTAR AND BULLET Shield.
I call those who fall into the above category, who fan the flames of HATE and who FIGHTS a war by PROXY using Children not just cowards but DESPICABLE COWARDS
How many of the approx 1 million Tamil Diaspora living abroad fall into that category? Judging by the LTTE Flag carrying demonstrators world wide, about a quarter million (or more). Judging from what you write you are no angel either.
This is a response to the last paragraph of your latest post. A response to the rest will follow.
Off the Cuff,
“Some RAN AWAY from this so called Freedom Fight but from the safety and comfort of their homes staged Terrorist flag carrying demonstrations, provided funds, moral support and encouragement to a Fascist Group IGNORING the KNOWN ATTROCITIES these Fascists commit against fellow Tamils living under them which included FORCED conscription of Children (as young as 10 years), Torture & Murder of Dissidents and use Civilians as a MORTAR AND BULLET Shield.
I call those who fall into the above category, who fan the flames of HATE and who FIGHTS a war by PROXY using Children not just cowards but DESPICABLE COWARDS”
I have far worse names for Sri Lankans who don’t care a dime about their own fellow-citizens being killed mercilessly, rounded up behind barbed wire, and journalists and dididents being targetted for summary execution and persecution. Who then go on to reward the perpetrators for their fine service by voting them in again. What was it—only a 1/4 of the tamil diaspora are “despicable cowards” according to your calculations? Well, more than half of Sri Lankans qualify for that very bad name I have for them (but which I can’t say cos it’s not for polite ears).
Belle,
“I have far worse names for Sri Lankans who don’t care a dime about their own fellow-citizens being killed mercilessly, rounded up behind barbed wire, and journalists and dididents being targetted for summary execution and persecution.” this is what you wrote
That’s exactly what your Sun God and his band of TERRORIST thugs did for nearly 30 years to the TAMILS living under them.
Did you care “a Speck of Dirt” about the Tamil CHILDREN who were forced to sacrifice their childhood and finally called upon to make the SUPREME sacrifice?
While you were busy playing War Drums after taking the cowards exit you closed your eyes to the suffering of the Tamils in the Vanni, as you and your siblings were comfortable and safe. Where was your Humanity then?
You cant feign ignorance as you CLAIM you get a lot of information from the Vanni. If you are able to get so much information now, you should have got TONS of information when the LTTE was running the show. Were you getting Selective information all these years? Never heard about LTTE ATROCITIES towards the Vanni TAMILS? The Tamils about whom you are shedding tears now.
Were you Deaf, Dumb and Blind to what the LTTE did to the Tamils under them? Looks like you have selective amnesia towards the LTTE but microscopic vision and memory towards the SLA.
And now you take a Moral High Ground!!!
Off the Cuff,
You share the Rajapakse regime’s penchant for dramatic rhetoric, underneath which lies…absolutely nothing. Just like how they accused him of high treason, planning to assassinate the entire Rajapakse family, etc, and now all they can do is charge him with participating in politics while in the military and violating military procurement procedures!
I have never subscribed to the LTTE. But you need to pretend that I did because otherwise you can’t touch me. What would you have wanted me to do to prevent the LTTE from carrying out its terrorism? Come flying up to Sri Lanka like Batman and zap them off the face of the earth? Even your illustrious army took 30 years to do the job. Where’s your evidence that I even contributed money to the LTTE? Do you have any idea how desperate you sound just lashing out at people whose identity you don’t even know and accusing them of things that you summon out of your demented imagination? Like as if you care a fig for Tamils.
The LTTE is dead. Now people like you are stumped because you’ve run out of excuses for your country’s failures and your racism.
By “him”, I meant Fonseak, of course.
Belle,
“I have never subscribed to the LTTE. But you need to pretend that I did because otherwise you can’t touch me”
There was never a need to pretend.
Pretense is your Hall Mark like the time both “Belle” and “Disgusted” engaged me in an argument. I thought they were two individuals. Found out much later that I was deceived. Your emphatic pronouncements sound hollow, considering your duplicitous nature.
You are the one who challenged what I wrote about the Times fabrications. But you avoided discussing the PUBLISHED material and instead were writing about non existent reputations, deals, work ethics, unpublished material and figments of your imagination, everything else BUT what the Times published.
“What would you have wanted me to do to prevent the LTTE from carrying out its terrorism? Come flying up to Sri Lanka like Batman and zap them off the face of the earth?”
Raising your voice against the LTTE as STRIDENTLY as you raise it now.
Creating public awareness about the suffering of the down trodden Tamil Civilians in the Vanni squirming under the Jack Boot of the LTTE.
Joining other Tamil Voices who bravely fought the propaganda of the LTTE.
Organizing or joining Public protests against the LTTE and its Fund raising Fronts.
Those would have helped.
Imitating cartoon characters definitely won’t
“Even your illustrious army took 30 years to do the job”
Not if the Indians refrained from a Parippu drop.
Despite the “Invincibility” that was being touted, it just took 3 years this time.
“Where’s your evidence that I even contributed money to the LTTE?”
Did I accuse you specifically of contributing money?
This is what I wrote “Some RAN AWAY from this so called Freedom Fight but from the safety and comfort of their homes staged Terrorist flag carrying demonstrations, provided funds, moral support and encouragement to a Fascist Group IGNORING the KNOWN ATROCITIES these Fascists commit against fellow Tamils”
Notice the word “SOME” in the above.
You did not deny the other forms of support.
Looks like a guilty conscience is articulating itself. There is a Sinhala proverb “Puhul Hora Karen Dane” which literally means the pumpkin thief is apparent from the Pumpkin ash left on his shoulder. Money is not the only way support can be extended. I believe that you have an LTTE bent because of your writings, the same basis used by you, to accuse me.
“Do you have any idea how desperate you sound just lashing out at people whose identity you don’t even know and accusing them of things that you summon out of your demented imagination? ”
Physician Heal Thyself. I told you before, moderation will be reciprocated with moderation.
“The LTTE is dead. Now people like you are stumped because you’ve run out of excuses for your country’s failures and your racism.”
That’s what your types want everyone to believe, so that they will drop their guard.
What happened to the TRO, the WTM, the strong arm men of the LTTE that roamed making collections, the Transitional govts, the LTTE control of Hindu Temples in UK etc. Has that entire infrastructure simply Vanished in to thin air?
What happened to the Female Tiger leader, the one who did the commissioning of LTTE female cadres by presenting them with Cyanide capsules? The last time I heard she is living in comfort in the UK. Most of all, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MASSIVE FUNDS that were collected?
If what I write in defense of my country in response to lop sided unjustified racist attacks from Tamil Nationalist like you, can be called govt propaganda or racist, so be it. We will be there to counter your misinformation. The Internet is no longer your exclusive domain as it was in the past. Your intended target audience is no longer receiving a ONE SIDED story.
Sections of the Tamil Diaspora blindly supported the LTTE’s terror at home and its political articulation of people as weapons of mass suicide. In turn they became accomplices in extending its dreadful fiat over the Tamil social and political space within Western democracies. Without batting an eyelid, this same Diaspora is using human rights campaigns to challenge the Lankan government. They enhanced the legitimate stories of profound suffering of their people with well-publicised lies that the people were staying with the LTTE willingly, all the while denying as always its abuse of children and blaming the Government squarely for all their ills.